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Don Lemon Tonight
A.G. Barr Denies Systemic Racism In Policing, Also Condemns Voting-By-Mail; President Trump Appears To Encourage Voters To Cast Ballots Twice; Joe Biden To Visit Kenosha, Wisconsin Tomorrow; CDC: Prepare For A Possible Vaccine; Americans Facing Eviction From Homes; ABC News: DHS Withheld Intelligence Bulletin Warning About Russian Misinformation Attack On Biden's Mental Health. Aired 11p-12a ET
Aired September 02, 2020 - 23:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[23:00:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DON LEMON, CNN HOST: This is CNN TONIGHT. I'm Don Lemon. 11:00 p.m. here on the East Coast and we are following multiple breaking stories for you.
One of them is the Attorney General William Barr in a wide-ranging CNN exclusive interview claiming there's no systemic racism in policing.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
WILLIAM BARR, U.S. ATTORNEY GENERAL: I don't think there are two justice systems. Let's -- you know, I think the narrative that there's -- that the police are on some, you know, epidemic of shooting unarmed black men is simply a false narrative and also the narrative that that's based on race.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: The Attorney General taking a page out of the president's playbook, condemning voting by mail.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BARR: This is playing with fire. We're a very closely divided country here, and if people have to have confidence in the results of the election and the legitimacy of the government, and people trying to change the rules to this -- to this methodology --
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: That as the president today incredibly appeared to suggest that voters should cast their ballots twice. You'll hear that for yourself this hour.
And Democratic candidate Joe Biden, well, travels to Kenosha, Wisconsin tomorrow. He says that he'll meet with the family of shooting victim Jacob Blake and call for healing in the city. Those stories and much, much more in the hour ahead. I want to bring in now CNN White House correspondent, John Harwood and
senior editor for the Atlantic, Ron Brownstein. Thank you, the expertise and the experience here, I am in awe. Gentlemen, it's good to see you. John, I'm going to start with you. This interview with the Attorney General makes it clear that he is doing the political work of the president. I want you to take a listen to how he explained away the president today.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: They choke, just like in a golf tournament, they miss a three-foot --
BARR: I think what the president was saying there, and it's something that I think should be said and has to be said, that in many of these shooting situations it is not because of race, it's because the officer is scared for his life.
TRUMP: So, let them send it in and let them go vote. And if the systems as good as they say it is then obviously they won't be able to vote.
BARR: It seems to me what he's saying is -- he's trying to make the point that the ability to monitor this system is not good, and if it was so good, if you tried to vote a second time, you would be caught if you voted in person.
TRUMP: We're ready, willing and able to send in, you know, a massive group of people that are really highly trained.
BARR: I think he's right in saying that there could come a point where we do that, but it's the Governor's responsibilities and the mayors.
TRUMP: They want everything. You don't need anything else. They all lied to Congress. They were liars. They were cheaters. They were treasonous. It was treason.
BARR: Well, treason is a legal term. I think he's using it colloquially.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: Wow. Since when is the Attorney General's job to be the president's number one translator and cleanup man? John?
JOHN HARWOOD, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, since Bill Barr became Attorney General. Look, Bill Barr has been doing the president's bidding since he took that job. He -- and misrepresented the results of the Mueller report to make it appear that he had exonerated President Trump. But think it's important to point out that Bill Barr is not just doing the president's bidding here, he's also doing Bill Barr's bidding.
During Bill Barr's lifetime white Christians have gone from about 80 percent of the population to now under half. He made a speech at Notre Dame last year in which he made clear his bitter opposition to the ways that the country is changing.
He said that conservative people with traditional values of faith were under assault from secular militants aligned with the media and academia and Hollywood. There's a heavy overlap between those secular militants he sees and described in that speech and the people who are agitating for change on the basis of their view of systemic racism in the country.
The kind of people who are urging a heavy turnout to defeat Donald Trump, who is running as the candidate of white conservative Christians. So I think Bill Barr's instincts here, his reflexes are -- run entirely in the same direction as President Trump's.
[23:05:06]
LEMON: This president, Ron, is all about stoking fear and violence, claiming repeatedly at the RNC that Biden will endanger Americans' safety. But this is what the new CNN polls shows, the president's tactics didn't make a dent in the numbers. How significant is that, Ron Brownstein?
RON BROWNSTEIN, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST, SENIOR EDITOR OF THE ATLANTIC: Yes, two important points here, Don. First, it is really hard to shift the focus toward something that most people are experiencing on TV, which is protests in urban centers, from what they're experiencing in their daily life, which is the pandemic.
And the CNN poll, like the other polling that's out today is very clear that the concern about the enormous impact of the pandemic on disrupting daily life in so many ways is a far more immediate and pressing worry for Americans than the president's attempt to kind of gin up his enormous concern about violent crime, which is much lower than it was a generation ago.
The other key point, and you look at the CNN poll and other polls, you know, even if Trump succeeds in convincing Americans to focus more on violent crime, it's not a guarantee that they believe he is the answer to the problem. I mean, one of the polls out today in the Quinnipiac University poll by a 50 to 35 percent margin, Americans feel they -- said they feel less safe rather than more safe as Trump.
And the reality is that for many of the suburban voters that he's targeting, their view is that his belligerent and inflammatory approach to race makes them less safe not more safe. And so it's not clear he can shift the argument. It's not clear that he can win the argument, even if he does.
LEMON: Yes, listen, Kyung Lah did a story earlier on AC 360 about people in Houston and how they were dealing with the coronavirus, right, and the eviction rate there. That is a real -- that was a real picture of Trump's America, what is happening in this country. And when you consider other nations, other countries, developed nations are pretty much back to normal and back to work. Their economies are, you know, back up and running. And we, the most powerful country in the world, are not. It says -- says to you what's happening out there and that this is
Donald Trump's making, you know, and not, you know, as you said, something that most people are experiencing on television. Horrible. There are crime spikes in areas. Don't get me wrong. I live here in New York City and I do see what's happening. But Ron, I want you to check out -- this is a Fox News.
HARWOOD: Don?
LEMON: Quickly, John, because I want to get to this poll first. Go on, please.
HARWOOD: Well, I was just going to say we've got unemployment in this country over 10 percent right now. It was never that -- as high as it is today during the great recession. A million people filed new unemployment claims last week. We'll see how many announce that they've filed tomorrow.
But there is a huge amount of economic deprivation in the country right now. People are living with that. Their lives have been disrupted. Their kids can't go to school. Those are things that are extremely difficult for the president to talk his way out of.
LEMON: Yes. I'm glad you brought that up. In that story, too, if you watch it, there is an older lady, she is -- they're evicting her and the guy who is doing -- the officer who is doing the eviction saying, I can't do this. It was a heatwave today. Let's just give her a reprieve. They give her a day. That is what's happening in this country on this president's watch.
But Ron, check this out. This is a Fox News battleground poll, it's from Wisconsin, taken entirely after the Kenosha unrest. Trump is down five points on policing and in criminal justice. What does that say to you?
BROWNSTEIN: Well, it says, as I was saying, that even if he gets people to focus on this, it's not a guarantee that they think he has the answer. You know, when Richard Nixon promised law and order in 1968, most suburbanites probably thought he could deliver it, but in fact, many Americans believe that Trump is making the problem worse, not better, because he is refusing to deal with the underlying issue and is simply kind of calling for the iron fist to crush protests rather than to calm it and reach out to them.
You know, all of this polling that came out today, this Fleury of polls in states and national polls. Donald Trump is at 43 or below in virtually every poll that came out today. And he got 45 percent, 46 percent of the vote in 2016. He has never reached 50 percent approval at any point in his term and he's having trouble getting back to 45 percent or 46 percent.
And one of the key reasons, Don, is that he is facing the biggest deficit of any Republican ever among college educated white voters. The suburbanites he's trying to scare with his, you know, with his tough talk on crime, but, again, many of them simply do not believe his approach will make them safer. LEMON: I got to get to Jonathan Reiner. But this is important, John.
I'll let you have the last word here, OK. This poll's showing that he's down as Ron just mentioned, amongst suburban women, a group who claims law -- that you know, they want law and order. That he claims want. Look at that, 56-41.
HARWOOD: Look, suburban women powered the vote against Republicans in the House in 2018. They're strongly aligned with Joe Biden in this campaign. And the one thing that we saw from the Fleury of polls that Ron referred to today is, these numbers are very sticky.
[23:10:11]
It is very difficult for a president who has been as unpopular for as long as Donald Trump has to change perceptions of him and to change perceptions of his opponent who is also pretty well known. This race has been exceedingly stable. It does not appear that the conventions had any profound effect on the (inaudible) two months to try to turn that around, it's not going to be easy at all.
LEMON: Thank you, gentlemen. I appreciate it. Dr. Reiner is here. Hello, Dr. Reiner. Thanks for joining us.
JONATHAN REINER, CNN MEDICAL ANALYST: Hi, Don.
LEMON: By the way, he is the Director of the Cardiac Catheterization Program at George Washington University Hospital, former Vice President Dick Cheney's cardiologist. The CDC is telling the public health officials around the country to prepare to distribute a potential vaccine as soon as October, but the Director of the national Intelligence -- National Institute of Health I should say, says that it is unlikely a vaccine will be ready by then. Is this all about political pressure?
REINER: Yes, absolutely. The vaccine that's probably most advanced in its evaluation cycle is the Moderna RNA vaccine. They involve about 18,000 patients out of an intended 30,000 and it would be extraordinarily unlikely that they could be done really before -- probably before the first of the year. The vaccine has given it two pieces. It's given in two shots in days.
Asking patients to enroll, those been shot, a month after the first injection. And then you have to follow them (inaudible) seems extraordinarily unlikely that they can have enough data really before Christmas time or the first of the year.
LEMON: I put this up a little bit early, but I want you to check out this video. It's from the president's trip to North Carolina today. People tightly packed in there. Maybe a few are wearing masks. I don't see them. And the president smiling, great example of what not to do?
REINER: Yes. I mean, exactly. So, look at the states that are doing well and look at the states that aren't doing well. So, you know, New York state, everyone wears a mask. They have a positivity rate of about 1 percent. Look at Iowa. The Governor of Iowa, Kim Reynolds, has refused to endorse a statewide mask mandate. Everywhere in the country there's a statewide mask mandate, numbers are down. Everywhere there hasn't been, numbers are up.
LEMON: It's interesting, listen, for the president -- I don't know if you can put that video back up. You know, the president is not extremely close to them, but I think -- you know, six feet away, but -- and it's good that, listen, if you're outside and the wind's blowing and you're far away, that's good, but should be wearing a mask. But the people are packed in there with each other. And that's the issue. Yes.
REINER: Yes, he doesn't care about his supporters. It's all about him. So if he's far enough away, well, that's OK. But what happens to his supporters? Well, you know, again they're disposable props.
LEMON: Doctor, thank you. I'll see you soon.
REINER: My pleasure.
LEMON: I appreciate you coming on.
REINER: Sure.
LEMON: The A.G. says there's no systemic racism in law enforcement, but he sounded a little bit different just a few months ago. Is he changing his tune to suit his boss?
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[23:15:00]
LEMON: In an exclusive interview with CNN TONIGHT, the Attorney General, William Barr, telling Wolf Blitzer he doesn't think there's systemic racism in policing.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BARR: I don't think there are two justice systems. Let's, you know, I think the narrative that there's a -- that the police are on some, you know, epidemic of shooting unarmed black men is simply a false narrative.
To me the word systemic means that it's built into the institution. And I don't think that's true. I think our institutions have been reformed in the past 60 years, and if anything has been built in, it's a biased in nondiscrimination and safeguards against that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: So I want to discuss now. CNN legal analyst, Joey Jackson is here. Cedric Alexander, former president of the National Organization of Black Law Executives. They both join us.
Gentlemen, hello, I appreciate you joining us. Joey, what interests me is this, back in early July the Attorney General had this say about the frustration with law enforcement in this country, following the death of George Floyd. I want to play that. Here it is.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BARR: I do think that it is a widespread phenomenon that -- that African-American males particularly are treated with extra suspicion and maybe not given the benefit of the doubt. I think it is wrong if people are not respected appropriately and given their due.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: So, why has he changed his tune?
JOEY JACKSON, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Don, good evening. Good evening to my friend, Dr. A. It could have something to do with an election, and that election is relatively soon. And that's an abomination.
If you're going to have a top law enforcement official in the country, you have to be about law, you have to be about order and you have to be about justice. And make no mistake about it, you cannot roll up your sleeves to resolve a problem unless there is a recognition that that problem exists.
And when you have an outright denial of the problem, which appears to be for political purposes, it's concerning and it concerns everyone, I believe, a lot. And you can have a show every night of the week, Don, on the issue of an African-American man or woman whose life has been taken away or has been paralyzed or some other thing.
I could run off the names. In fact, I have your producers yelling wrap in my ear if I talk about Philando Castile. If I talk about (Inaudible) Sterling. If I talk about George Floyd. If I talk about Jacob Blake. I can go on, Breanna Taylor, Atatiana Jefferson. It goes on. And so the fact is we do have a problem. And make no mistake about it.
[23:20:00]
When the top law enforcement official says something like that, which politically intent and is not recognizing it, it doesn't only end with law enforcement. We have to evaluate our system with regard to who is being prosecuted and how, whether those prosecutions are fair and appropriate to people of color, whether judges are sentencing predicated upon race or whether that's totally fair. So top to bottom, the system needs to be evaluated and when you have a lack of recognition of a problem that concerns me greatly as a person who practices in the courts of this state.
LEMON: Cedric?
CEDRIC ALEXANDER, FORMER PRESIDENT, NATIONAL ORGANIZATION OF BLACK LAW EXECUTIVES: Barr also tried --
LEMON: I think you can make your point because I just want -- I want to make sure I get this sound in for you, OK? He also tried to thread the needle by saying this about policing in this country. Here it is.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) BARR: Now, I did say that I do think that there appears to be a
phenomenon in the country where African-Americans feel that they're treated when they're stopped by police frequently as suspects before they're treated as citizens. I don't think that that necessarily reflects some deep-seeded racism in police departments or in most police officers. I think the same kind of behavior is done by African- American police officers.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: Is he using black officers as a fig leaf to cover up bad policing? I mean, you don't have to be white to be co-opted by a racist system, right?
ALEXANDER: So let me say this, first of all, Don. July of last year in New Orleans, myself and along with a number of other members of the National Organization of Black Law Executives, NOBLE, met with A.G. Barr, and he had known for months, and in that room was over 20 or 30 police executives of color, had over 20 or 30 years of experience. Over 600 years of experience that expressed to this administration on a number of times that there is structural and systemic racism in this country.
A.G. Barr, with all due respect, he is not a police expert. We are. And for those people of color, men, women, black in that room, they have shared upon occasion with this administration that racism lives in this country and it lives in every institution. We're only going to be a great nation is when we can acknowledge the fact that we are stricken by racism and all the other isms that exist.
So, for someone to tell me as a person of color that racism doesn't exist would be just like me telling a woman that sexism in not a reality. So, I think, Mr. Barr must and I hope that he do come to a point of reality being the most highest ranking person in law enforcement in this country, the most powerful nation in the world, if he -- if he even suggests that these isms do not occur then imagine what that does to the millions of people in this country who are a color, who are disabled, who are gay and lesbian and women in any -- in everyone else, regardless of who they are, is to suggest that we somehow, yes, we have made significant gains, but there's still a lot of work to do.
But we're still at a point where this country is more afraid of an unarmed black man who ends up getting killed then we are of another man who may be white who runs through the street with a rifle, a lot of issues in this country still to confront.
I am an American. I consider myself a law and order police officer, chief of police twice in this country. And during that time -- but let me tell you what law and order means in the 21st century. It means that we live by the rule of law. It means that we respect the U.S. Constitution, that everyone is treated equally.
And order, how is that defined? It is clearly defined by the role modelling that I do and any other leader do in this profession that allows for others to look at us and maintain order through our actions, our demeanor and our truthfulness and our love for this country. So for someone to say, and particularly in his position, that racism does not exist, there's not a dual system, then we're going to tell him, millions of people and thousands of chiefs and executives across this country that is not true.
LEMON: Cedric, Joey, thank you both. I appreciate it.
ALEXANDER: Thank you.
LEMON: A lot more on what the Attorney General said tonight, including his claims about voter fraud and Russian election interference.
But next, the CDC temporarily pausing evictions for people going through severe financial hardships because of coronavirus. You really need to see this. Our Kyung Lah spoke to some of those people and the deputies tasked, tasked with evicting them.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[23:25:00]
LEMON: So, I saw this piece tonight, and I knew all of you needed to see it too. Come to Texas with us and watch as law enforcement there as they go door to door evicting people from their homes. Here's CNN's Kyung Lah.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hello. Constable. Need to come to the door.
KYUNG LAH, CNN SENIOR NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice over): From one Houston home to the next --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hello. Constable.
LAH: Deputy Bennie Gant with the Harris County Constables Office executes judge's orders to evict.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We ain't got nowhere to go.
LAH (voice-over): Israel Rodriguez is a tenant at this apartment, but he's not alone, 20-month-old, Israel, his brother, 4-year-old Fadian (ph), and their mother, are some of the estimated 40 million Americans facing eviction in the downward spiral of the COVID economy.
[23:30:03]
ISRAEL RODRIGUEZ, FAMILY EVICTED FROM APARTMENT (voice-over): They didn't rush in but they are, like, get everything you need.
LAH (voice-over): Rodriguez admits he hasn't been paying rent, behind thousands of dollars.
RODRIGUEZ: It's no-fault (ph) eviction. It was a lot going on during the -- when it hit, I lost my job. So it took me like a month to get another job. This is my check, but I ain't making it with $300. It's literally $300.
LAH (voice-over): Their stroller now carries their possessions.
RODRIGUEZ: It's mainly the kids' clothes because me and her just wear the same clothes almost every day. Make sure we got, you know, toilet paper and a little bit of snacks for the kids.
LAH (on camera): What are you going to do with all of your stuff?
RODRIGUEZ: That's trash. They can throw it in the trash because we don't have a car, we don't have help, we don't have nobody that can come, you know, and help us out right now, nobody. We got ourselves, me and the kids and her. That's it.
LAH (on camera): How do you as law enforcement feels about seeing that family have to go?
BENNIE GANT, HARRIS COUNTY CONSTABLES, PRECINCT 1: Oh, it's a tough situation. I've got six kids, six children. And, you know, the kids see their mom and dad in desperate situations. It's tough.
LAH (voice-over): Deputy Gant, an officer for 35 years, is just starting his day. Eight evictions are on his list.
GANT: A co-defendant is here, two of them.
LAH (voice-over): At each stop, people behind on rent are ordered to leave. Possessions pulled out.
LAH (on camera): Where are you guys going to go now?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We're going to the hotel.
LAH (on camera): You're going to go to a hotel?
GANT: Time to go.
LAH (voice-over): As Deputy Gant works through his list, we get word that 200 eviction orders have come through the Harris County courts for this week. That's double what they normally saw for an entire month before COVID.
(On camera): Two hundred on Monday. What does that --
GANT: That's a lot, yeah.
LAH (on camera): What does that say to you?
GANT: Well, what that means is that they're ready to start having people removed from properties.
LAH (voice-over): It is a backlog. But it's also just one precinct in one of America's hardest hit cities in evictions. The job takes its toll.
GANT: I don't really want to put her out here, but I have to, under this judge's order.
LAH (voice-over): At this apartment, the tenant is an elderly woman, who can no longer afford the rent. The landlord's mover, Francisco Munoz, works, though he doesn't want to.
FRANCISCO MUNOZ, HELPING MOVE EVICTED TENANT: I have a family. I have a sister. I have, you know, my mom. And we never know. Maybe today it's her, tomorrow it's me, you know?
LAH (voice-over): Midway through the eviction, Deputy Gant decides it's too dangerous to evict her in the Houston summer heat.
GANT: I'm not going to put her out here in this heat.
LAH (voice-over): And will call social services instead.
GANT: You can stay today, but tomorrow, you're leaving.
LAH (voice-over): A one-day reprieve with an uncertain tomorrow.
GANT: You have a situation where people aren't working, they don't have the money, and they're desperate.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
LEMON: That was Kyung Lah. Kyung, thank you. Incredible job, bringing that story to the people so that they can see it.
I want to bring in now CNN economics commentator Catherine Rampell. Catherine, whew, that is tough to watch. We see all these incredible hardships. Good evening, by the way. All these incredible hardships those people are dealing with the real economic impact of COVID-19.
And then we see the soaring stock market and the president loves to tout it and the best -- that is not the best economy. That is -- those are people who are hurting. This does not add up, these two totally different situations.
CATHERINE RAMPELL, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: There are essentially two economies in this country right now. There is a buoyant recovery that is essentially floating atop a possible depression.
If you are one of the high-income workers in this country who can work from home, who can get your needs and your desires delivered to you, who has retirement savings, and who has investments in the stock market, you're doing fine. You might even be doing better than you were before.
But if you are a low-wage worker, those jobs have just been lost in phenomenal numbers. They're still down something like 15 percent, I believe, from where they were pre-pandemic. You are facing possible eviction, as we just saw. You're facing possible bankruptcy, homeless, hunger.
And, you know, the president is essentially taking a victory lap because he's looking at the good economy and ignoring the bad economy, which, you know, allegedly was supposed to be his people, the forgotten men. They're still forgotten.
LEMON: The White House issued an order through the CDC to temporarily halt evictions for some Americans struggling to pay their rent due to the pandemic by broadening protections already in place. Will this be enough? It seems unclear how this will even work, how it's going to really work.
RAMPELL: So, this will certainly be a relief to people who might have been on the verge of eviction and therefore homelessness or couch surfing, having to cram in with family members, you know, during a pandemic.
[23:34:59]
RAMPELL: But it's a Band-Aid. It's not a solution because this is essentially a deferral of those rent payments for the next several months. They will still become due in January with potential interests and penalties. Landlords can still impose those.
And beyond that, in the meantime, landlords are having to go without rent. Now, you might say, look, they're in a better financial position to absorb that shock than renters and probably that's true much of the time, but these are people who owe mortgages. They may well default on their mortgages because there isn't any financial relief coming to either party at this point.
And we saw during the last financial crisis the risks of how long it can take to unwind a crisis like this that it kind of works its way through the food chain and has these cascading effects to renters, to landlords, and then eventually to financial markets.
So what we really need to have happen is that there needs to be some sort of financial relief that either goes to renters or the landlords and not just say, look, we're going to kick the can down the road, which is essentially what's happening right now.
LEMON: I got to tell you, I cannot -- that lady that they wouldn't show -- the elderly lady just reminded me of my mom. I know my mom already knows. That lady reminded me of you. I know she is going to say that. Sitting there in her nice PJs and, you know, her short haircut, she is an older lady, she has no means of income, and she's going to be evicted at this stage of her life?
RAMPELL: Yeah.
LEMON: Sad. This is awful, people.
RAMPELL: It's really awful. There needs to be more financial help --
LEMON: Yeah.
RAMPELL: -- to families, households throughout the country. What's happened so far is simply not sufficient, given the level of joblessness there is right now.
LEMON: Let's help each other, everyone, and stop fighting. We need to help everybody. Thank you, Catherine. Good to see you. You be well. Thank you.
So the president today is appearing to encourage people to vote twice, which is essentially voter fraud. And when pressed on questions about Trump's mail-in voting comments, the attorney general claimed voting by mail is -- quote -- "playing with fire."
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[23:40:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: President Trump in an interview today appearing to encourage people to vote twice, once by mail and once in person, the latest twist to his assault on the election process. That as Attorney General William Barr calls voting by mail reckless and dangerous.
Here with the facts, CNN Election Law Analyst, Rick Hasen.
Rick, thank you so much for joining. I want you to listen to the president seemingly encouraging people to vote twice in the 2020 election, once by mail and once in person. Here it is.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: Well, they'll go out and they'll vote, and they're going to have to go and check their vote by going to the poll and voting that way because if it tabulates, then they won't be able to do that. So let them send it in and let them go vote. And if the system is as good as they say it is then obviously they won't be able to vote. If it isn't tabulated, they'll be able to vote. So that's the way it is. And that's what they should do.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: Hmm. So the president has attacked mail-in voting. Now it sounds like he's telling people to try to vote twice. That would be illegal, right?
RICK HASEN, CNN ELECTION LAW ANALYST: Sure. Yeah. So, it's illegal under both federal law for someone to vote twice in the same election and also under North Carolina law. And it's also illegal to induce someone else to do it. So, Trump even saying this is getting close to the line of illegality.
LEMON: I want to play now the attorney general, Bill Barr, in an interview earlier saying that voting by mail is playing with fire.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
WILLIAM BARR, UNITED STATES ATTORNEY GENERAL: This is playing with fire. We're a very closely divided country here. And if people have to have confidence in the results of the election and the legitimacy of the government, and people trying to change the rules to this -- to this methodology, which as a matter of logic is very open to fraud and coercion, is reckless and dangerous, and the people are playing with fire.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: So give us the facts. You know, just saying it with feeling doesn't make it necessarily so, but is voting by mail very open to fraud and coercion?
HASEN: Well, I think Barr is the one who is playing with fire. If you look at the five states that do all vote by mail elections, including the heavily republican state of Utah, they have very low rates of fraud.
It's true that when fraud happens with elections, it's more likely to happen with absentee ballots, but the number of cases is quite small and there are very few cases where people are trying to swing an election. Even when that happens, it tends to be a small, local election.
Trying to swing a presidential election through some kind of chicanery with absentee ballots would by extremely tough to do and you'd get caught trying to do it because it would involve a conspiracy with a lot of people and people would know if their votes had been cast by someone else.
LEMON: So, Rick, the attorney general also says that he is concerned another country could send thousands of fake ballots to people. He bases that conclusion on what he says is logic. Watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: You've said you are worried that a foreign country could send thousands of fake ballots, thousands of fake ballots to people and it might be impossible to detect. What are you basing that on?
BARR: I'm basing it -- as I've said repeatedly, I'm basing that on logic.
BLITZER: Pardon?
BARR: Logic.
BLITZER: But have you seen any evidence that a foreign country is trying to interfere --
[23:44:56]
BARR: No, I'm saying people are concerned about foreign influence and if we use a ballot system with a system that, you know, that states are just now trying to adopt, it does leave open the possibility of counterfeiting, counterfeiting ballots, either by someone here or someone overseas.
BLITZER: So you think a foreign country can do that?
BARR: I think anyone can do it.
BLITZER: Have you seen any evidence that they're trying to do that?
BARR: No.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: Any basis for this idea of large scale fake ballots being sent by a foreign country?
HASEN: It's really laughable because what -- you know, in order to counterfeit a ballot, you'd have to be using the right paper, the right color. Everybody's ballot in a different district looks different. You'd have to know the voter's name. In most states, you'd have to be able to fake their signature.
There is a bar code that is on absentee ballots that is used to track ballots in many states to make sure that you don't have this, you know, people trying to commit fraud. There are so many safeguards in place.
I think if you were trying to swing an election in a foreign country, the last thing you would try and do is to do this, and to do it in short order. Where are you going to mail these and how it is going to happen? It is just -- it is a ludicrous claim. Of all the claims of voter fraud that either Trump or Barr have made, this one is really the most ridiculous one yet.
LEMON: Yeah. There's a bar code, all right, not the one you're talking about. But thank you, Rick, I appreciate it. We'll be right back.
HASEN: Thanks.
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[23:50:00]
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LEMON: ABC News is reporting today that the Department of Homeland Security withheld a July intelligence bulleting warning of Russian information, misinformation attacks on Joe Biden's mental health.
They report that Intel analysts concluded with high confidence that Russian maligned influence actors, I should say, are likely to continue denigrating presidential candidates through allegations of poor mental or physical health to influence the outcome of the 2020 election, meaning the exact same kinds of attacks the president uses.
So let's discuss now. Evan McMullin is here. He is a former CIA officer. Amanda Carpenter is here, as well, CNN political commentator and the author of "Gaslighting America." It is the second time that I mentioned your name tonight and your book. I don't know if you heard that earlier.
AMANDA CARPENTER, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR, FORMER SENIOR COMMUNICATIONS ADVISOR AND SPEECHWRITER FOR SENATOR TED CRUZ: I did. LEMON: You did.
CARPENTER: I was happy -- happy to hear that. So thanks.
LEMON: Good evening to both of you. Evan, let's start with you, because she's gotten a shout-out already. Listen. There is uproar over the DHS suppressing this warning, while meantime the president was making the same exact types of claims publicly.
So, now, acting DHS Secretary Chad Wolf says it was a very poorly written report and that's why it wasn't released. Is that convincing to you?
EVAN MCMULLIN, FORMER CIA OFFICER: No, it's not convincing. I mean, look, this follows a pattern, Don, of the administration now withholding intelligence about Russian interference in our election.
You know, we just learned last month that the DNI will now be withholding in-person briefings from Congress on these matters. Now, we learned that this memo that you just described was withheld from other authorities inside the federal government, as well as local and state authorities. Look, this is a pattern. This is a pattern. It's exactly the wrong pattern.
What we should be seeing from the federal government is weekly briefings to the American people about what the Russians are doing, about what their messaging is, about, you know, how they are trying to influence the election as an inoculation to the American public so that when the American public sees this disinformation, sees this divisive information, they know how to handle it and they can say to themselves, OK, I was told that, you know, this is the Russians trying to influence me, I'm going to discount it, I'm going to disregard it.
That's what should be happening. But of course, instead, we're learning and we're seeing that they're hiding the information, they are concealing it from the American people, and that just leaves us all at greater risk.
LEMON: OK. Amanda, I want to play this from Bill Barr's interview earlier, and then we'll talk about it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BLITZER: You've said you were worried that a foreign country could send thousands of fake ballots, thousands of fake ballots to people, and it might be impossible to detect. What are you basing that on?
BARR: I'm basing that -- as I've said repeatedly, I'm basing that on logic.
BLITZER: Pardon?
BARR: Logic.
BLITZER: But have you seen any evidence that a foreign country is trying to interfere?
BARR: No.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(LAUGHTER)
LEMON: Pardon me? What are you talking about? So when you saw Barr say this, you say alarm bells went off. Tell me why.
CARPENTER: Big time. Donald Trump and Bill Barr have been saying stuff like this since June, trying to set this narrative that foreign countries will be sending counterfeit mail-in ballots to Americans with no evidence, just, you know, logic, like he laid out in that interview.
But that, coupled with the news over the weekend that the director of national intelligence is only going to provide print reports to Congress, no oral briefings, no opportunity for questions or pushback, is a big deal. And not because I think they're withholding information. I think because they want to set the narrative.
I think it is quite logical to expect there will be some kind of intelligence report produced that will leak because print materials leak, saying exactly what Donald Trump and Bill Bar are saying in person. There is foreign country, you know, probably China, because they keep pointing the finger at China, sending counterfeit ballots to Americans.
There won't be an opportunity for Congress to ask for evidence because there's no chance to push back.
[23:54:59]
CARPENTER: But they are seeding this narrative. We need to pay attention to it. It is going to be a very big deal because we know Donald Trump wants to cast dispersions on these mail-in ballots. He said the election is rigged because of mail-in ballots. There might be counterfeit ballots.
I mean, this is happening. The gaslighting is happening now. It is only a matter of how far these guys take it. And we know what Bill Barr can do because his first act, as attorney general, was to misrepresent the Mueller reporter to Congress. So don't underestimate how far these people will go.
LEMON: Amanda, Evan, thank you. I appreciate your time. And thank you for watching, everyone. Our coverage continues.
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