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Don Lemon Tonight
Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg Dies at 87; Not Much Comment from President Trump; Sen. Amy Klobuchar (D-MN) Was Interviewed About Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg's Legacy. Small but Notorious RBG. Aired 10-11p ET
Aired September 18, 2020 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[22:00:00]
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: The coverage continues now with Don Lemon and CNN Tonight. Don?
DON LEMON, CNN HOST: This is CNN Tonight. I'm Don Lemon.
We have sad breaking news especially for the entire country. But for those who have loved and have lost a woman figure in your life. A grandmother figure that you have look up to, a fighter for justice. It is especially sad in this moment. We are keenly aware of what Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg meant to women all across this country and in the world. She's dead at age 87.
I want to take you to the White House live now live with flags, and the capital as well, they are flying at half-staff tonight, crowds gathering on the steps of the Supreme Court. Millions of Americans they will remember exactly where they were when they heard the news. That Ruth Bader Ginsburg was a brilliant, brilliant Supreme Court justice, a rigorous fighter for justice and gender equality. They will remember where they were when she died.
Her death potentially changing the balance of power on the highest court in this land. Justice Ginsburg less than five feet tall was a fighter to her last breath.
Here's what NPR is reporting that just days before her death Ginsburg dictated this statement to her granddaughter, Clara Spera. She said with the bluntness she was known for she said quote, "my most fervent wish is that I will not be replaced until a new president is installed."
Just last week President Trump unveiled a new list of 20 potential conservative nominees for the Supreme Court. A move that meant to -- that was meant to fire up his base with election day looming.
The Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell putting out a statement. The statement reads as, President Trump's nominee will receive a vote on the floor of the United States.
This now sets up battle that will not only upset the delicate balance of the Supreme Court but appends the race for the presidency and the state of many Senate races as well. Justice Ginsburg was a hero to so many who in her 80s, became the
closest thing the court has ever seen to a rock star, known as the notorious RBG. The Chief Justice, John Roberts saying, our nation has lost a jurist of historic stature. We at the Supreme Court have lost a cherished colleague. Today we mourn. But with confidence that future generations will remember Ruth Bader Ginsburg as we knew her, a tireless and resolute champion of justice.
She was nominated to the Supreme Court by President Bill Clinton and sworn in on August 10, 1993. She was one of four dissenting -- the dissenting votes in Bush v. Gore which resolved the disputed 2000 presidential election in favor of George W. Bush.
She was an inspiration to women around the country and around the world and to little girls who copied her fashion sense. She loved the court. But like I said, she could be blunt.
Ruth Bader Ginsburg died surrounded by family in her home in Washington, D.C. The first female justice, Jewish female justice by the way passing away on the first night of Rosh Hashanah, a time to reflect on how to make the world better. Justice Ginsburg had some thoughts on making the court better in this interview with CNN's Poppy Harlow.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR: So final question, help me finish the sentence, OK? There will be enough female justices on the Supreme Court when there are --
RUTH BADER GINSBURG, ASSOCIATE JUSTICE OF THE SUPREME COURT OF THE UNITED STATES: You know the answer is when there are nine, of course.
(APPLAUSE)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: I want to bring in now CNN White House correspondent Kaitlan Collins. She is live in Minnesota where the news broke during the president's rally. Kaitlan, good evening to you. What was the president's reaction?
KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN White HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Don, he was basically completely unaware of what was going on. He got on stage and shortly after that was when this news broke. So, the president spoke for over two hours to a crowd here not knowing that this seismic change had happened in Washington, and of course, throughout the nation to the Supreme Court.
So, he didn't find out until he was going to get on Air Force One. He walked from the stage. It was kind of a jarring moment to see the president on stage so unaware given he keeps up with the news so much. Then he walkover to Air Force One and this is what he told reporters as he first found out about her death.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: She just died?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.
TRUMP: Wow. I didn't know that. I just -- you're telling me now for the first time. She led an amazing life. What else can you say. She was an amazing woman whether you agree or not. She was an amazing woman who led an amazing life. I'm actually sad to hear that. I am sad to hear that. Thank you very much.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
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COLLINS: So, you see there, Don, he was focusing on her legacy. Not talking about replacing the seat which of course has been a conversation that so many people have already started having. And then he climbed the stairs to Air Force One without saying anything else.
And when his press secretary spoke with reporters earlier tonight, she also did not talk about what their next step would be to fill that vacancy as we assume, they would. As the president has made clear he wants to.
But of course, it's notable, you know, he has made very clear what his goal with that would be. He was just on stage when he did not know about her death talking about how he put Ted Cruz on his list of potential people that he would nominate should there become a vacancy.
That was a meeting he had at the White House just a few weeks ago. So of course, that it is quickly going to move from looking at her legacy to looking at what is going to happen next and those conversations. Because this completely up ended what was already a crazy election cycle and a crazy campaign and now, we've got this thrown into the mix. And it is going to be something that of course these two candidates are asked about basically every step of the way until November 3rd.
LEMON: It certainly does complicate things. But just to be clear, because the president said he hadn't heard about it. The entire time he was on stage he didn't know when he was greet -- when he was speaking to that crowd. So, he clearly learned this news from the reporters it seems, correct?
COLLINS: Right. Because typically, he'll walk with the chief of staff or someone as he walks back over to Air Force One. It's a short flight since we're in an airport -- or a short walk since we're at this airport hangar.
But the chief of staff was not here tonight. He did not travel with the president. So, he seemed to literally find out from the reporters. Because you can see he pauses there. So, he seemed to be completely unaware, which it's just notable that the president seemed to be one of the last people to know given his schedule here tonight, Don.
LEMON: Listen, Kaitlan, you work, you know, in Washington, you work on The Hill, she is revered all over the country, but especially there in Washington near the Supreme Court. What is it -- what does this mean to women, especially women who are working in Washington and in the political field?
COLLINS: Yes. I was just thinking earlier there's a sign in my neighborhood in D.C. that says it's advocating for people to wear masks when they are around D.C. It started in the pandemic. And it says RBG works less than a mile from here. Wear your mask to protect her.
She has that kind of, obviously, there is, you know, such praise for her and such reverence for her throughout the country but especially in Washington, D.C. And she has this record of gender equality that really was what made her a household name as she was getting into that before she became a Supreme Court nominee.
So, you know, the reverberations of this are going to be massive. You're already seeing them being felt around the nation because this isn't something that just effects Washington.
LEMON: Right.
COLLINS: Sometimes there are lawmakers or people big figures in Washington who passed. This is something that really grips the entire nation, Don.
LEMON: Kaitlan Collins reporting. Kaitlan, thank you very much. I want to get to CNN's chief White House correspondent now, Mr. Jim Acosta. Jim, good evening to you. Jim is at the White House. Kaitlan just played the president's reaction when he heard the news. What are your sources telling you tonight?
JIM ACOSTA, CNN CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Don, I had a chance to ask Kayleigh McEnany, the press secretary a few questions just a few moments ago. And as kaitlan was saying she did not want to go to the question of the hour, which is, what is the president going -- President Trump going to do with this open seat on the Supreme Court.
She said that as the president was saying, you know, they want to make tonight about Ruth Bader Ginsburg. They don't want to get into the politics of this right away. But as the sun comes up here in the nation's capital tomorrow morning, Don, you can rest assured that this, you know, this will all begin.
And my understanding is talking to several sources this evening too, Trump campaign advisers said absolutely, the president is going to seek to fill that seat on the Supreme Court. As one Trump campaign adviser said to me earlier this evening the president is going to follow the Constitution, period.
Now I did talk to a source close to the president, somebody who talks to the president routinely just a short while ago, who said that the president has been, quote, "salivating" in the words of this source, "salivating" to fill a Supreme Court vacancy here in the coming months. And obviously is going to do this here in the coming days. Now in
terms of who he would pick, the source close to the president said that Mr. Trump has often talked about Amy Coney Barrett. She is an appellate court judge. She is beloved in the conservative movement. And obviously it would be a huge win for conservatives if he were to put her on the high court.
The question of course, Don, is whether or not the president can actually do that politically between now and the end of year. If he's reelected, obviously, that changes things. But if he loses the election and in a lame duck session you may have some moderate Republican senators who are just flat unwilling to do that, to put a replacement on the Supreme Court for Ruth Bader Ginsburg.
And so, this is going to get very interesting over the next several weeks. What the president now has is perhaps the most powerful political weapon he could have hoped for in the remaining weeks of this campaign. This is something that is going to energize his base, energize Catholic voters out there.
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These are, you know, some of the segments of his base that may have been depressed or deflated because of his response to the coronavirus, they are going to be instantly energized by this tantalizing opportunity to put another justice on the Supreme Court.
Never mind the fact that it might be hypocritical. Because the Republicans blocked the Democrats from filling the seat of Antonin Scalia back in 2016 with Merrick Garland. But as you have been hearing all night long from Manu Raju and others, Mitch McConnell, the Senate majority leader seems to have no qualms about doing just that. He's saying the president is going to get a vote for a pick, Don.
LEMON: I was just going to say to you, you answered partially. But I was going to say, does the name Merrick Garland mean anything to Mitch McConnell and the president? Because we remember what happened in 2016 when Mitch McConnell said --
ACOSTA: Yes.
LEMON: -- you know, I think the American people should decide who the next justice will be when the next president is elected.
ACOSTA: That's right. And keep in mind the president did an interview Hugh Hewitt, the conservative broadcaster back in August and was asked this question if a vacancy were to come up imminently what would you do. And the president said absolutely I would do it. And then he said the Democrats would do it.
And what's interesting about that comment obviously is that the Democrats tried to do it but the Republicans blocked them.
LEMON: Yes.
ACOSTA: I mean, this is just another reminder, elections have consequences. When the Democrats had the opportunity there was a sentiment and an atmosphere in Washington that was different than the one we have now. There was a sentiment there that perhaps the Democrats should not rush somebody like a Merrick Garland.
And you know, that sentiments sort of carried the day. It wasn't a battle royal that I think you will see up on Capitol Hill that might make the Brett Kavanaugh saga seem like small potatoes if the president were to try to do this in just the remaining weeks of this campaign. Or if he loses try to do it in a lake duck session, Don. I mean, it will just be, I mean, it will be, you know, a situation where just the fur is flying here in the city, Don.
LEMON: Well, I think all of that will play out. I think that will actually happen. And Jim, you and I and others at CNN will be here to cover it.
ACOSTA: Yes.
LEMON: Jim Acosta at the White House. Jim, we will be getting back to you. Thank you, sir.
ACOSTA: You bet.
LEMON: I want to get now to the Supreme Court. And our justice correspondent Jessica Schneider is there where a large crowd has gathered. It is absolutely -- good evening to you, Jessica, by the way. It's absolutely monumental loss tonight. And you are there. What are you seeing, what are folks saying to you?
JESSICA SCHNEIDER, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Don, you know, Jim just talked about it, the tensions in this city. I have seen the tensions already tonight and the emotions really run the gamut out here. So, I arrived just minutes after the court actually announced the passing of Justice Ginsburg around 7.30.
And within minutes people started gathering here, the crowd growing exponentially. I talked to people who said as soon as they heard the news, they came out here to the court. You can see the crowds behind me. You can see the growing pile of flowers as well as the candles out here.
I talked to one woman who said she lives in this neighborhood in Capitol Hill. She came out here because she wanted to honor Ruth Bader Ginsburg. She said that she was a woman of fairness and intelligence. I thought that was great way to put it.
But I have to tell you, Don, in just the past few minutes it's died down now, but the tensions flared out here. We saw a few men come through with bull horns chanting fake news, invoking the president's name. They were getting in people's faces out here who were just out here to solemnly remember Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg.
It has since died down. But it's just the glimpse of how even in this moment, the tensions are high. We're right across from the U.S. capitol where the flag is half-staff. The people out here were largely peaceful, they were quiet. You can hear really a pin drop out here when I first got here.
But then tensions escalated. They have since died down. But there are a lot of emotions running very high in the city right now. We have heard from the court, in fact, we heard from the chief justice, John Roberts, releasing a statement announcing the passing of Justice Ginsburg.
I'll read it now. And it really encapsulates who Justice Ginsburg was. Chief justice Roberts saying tonight, our nation has lost a jurist of historic stature. We at the Supreme Court have lost a cherished colleague. Today we mourn but with confidence that future generations will remember Ruth Bader Ginsburg as we knew her, a tireless and resolute champion of justice.
Tireless, Don, for sure. You know, in the past few months I've been out here covering the Supreme Court, the decisions that have come down in the final few weeks of the term. Justice Ginsburg worked throughout that despite battling cancer. You know, it was all the way back in February when she found out that she had cancer. Her fifth bout with cancer, yet she kept it quiet. Not releasing the news of it until July until the term had ended here at the Supreme Court.
[22:14:59]
But now we know that all the while throughout those final months of the Supreme Court's term, she was battling cancer while still being a tireless, tireless jurist here at the Supreme Court. You know, she found this out in February. She consulted with her doctors and decided on the course of medical action. But all the while she kept attending oral arguments when the arguments went by telephone after the COVID-19 pandemic. Really shut down this court in March. Justice Ginsburg continued to participate.
In fact, it was in May when she had the gallbladder condition where she went to the hospital. She actually participated in the arguments from her hospital bed at that point. And of course, it was an argument that meant a lot to her, as a champion for equal rights, this was an argument over the contraceptive mandate and the Trump administration trying to weaken the contraceptive mandate of the Affordable Care Act. The Trump administration --
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: And she was --
SCHNEIDER: -- ended up winning out in that case.
LEMON: Yes.
SCHNEIDER: But Justice Ginsburg participated as she did up until her last days. Don?
LEMON: Yes. She was a tireless champion and a hero to many. Eighty- seven years old. Ruth Bader Ginsburg dying.
Our Jessica Schneider live at the Supreme Court. Jessica, we will get back to you. I want to bring in now CNN's chief legal analyst Jeffrey Toobin, and our senior legal analyst Laura Coates.
Good evening, Jeffrey. Good evening, Laura. Man, what a historic moment. Jeffrey, I want to -- you know, "The Nine." I remember reading that book when I came back -- when I came to CNN back in the mid-2000s that you had written. And it's a fascinating book and it offers us so much insight into the court.
So, I want to -- I want to hear from you because this is an incredible loss for the court but not only the court, the country. And it comes at a critical point with the election so close. Give me your thoughts tonight.
JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN CHIEF LEGAL ANALYST: Well, it's just, it is kind of an overwhelming thing to think about. One thing about Ruth Bader Ginsburg that I think is important to remember, even if she had never served on the Supreme Court, she would have been an epic figure in the history of American law. Because she was as a private lawyer the architect of the end of legal gender discrimination in the United States.
She was the lawyer in the series of cases that during the Warren Burger years on the Supreme Court that -- that really broke down all the rules that said the law could treat women and men differently. It was an enormous achievement. Obviously, many, many lawyers were involved and many people who were not lawyers were involved.
But she was the architect and she accomplished that. You know, it's so hard even to remember how, you know, there were jobs that were simply not available to women. There were, you know, women's classified ads in the newspaper and men's classified ads in the newspaper. I mean, things we can't imagine today.
So, Jimmy Carter appointed her to the D.C. circuit towards the end of his term and then Bill Clinton put her on the Supreme Court in 1993. And you know, 27 years on the Supreme Court, she was a liberal in conservative times. And you know, there's no sugar coating the fact that she was in dissent in many of the most important cases of her time.
But in spite of that, she remained and became an icon to so many people, mostly women but not exclusively. And a symbol of how you don't have to be more than five feet tall or weigh more than 100 pounds to be as tough as an NFL linebacker because she was that tough intellectually. She was that tough physically. And you know, she will be remembered long after most Supreme Court justices are footnotes to history.
LEMON: I remember when she was -- when she was appointed to the Supreme Court where she was confirmed and at Brooklyn College and everyone was so proud of her, right, of Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg.
(CROSSTALK)
TOOBIN: A Brooklyn girl.
LEMON: Huh? I'm sorry? TOOBIN: A Brooklyn girl.
LEMON: A Brooklyn girl, that's why.
TOOBIN: Yes, James Maddison High School.
LEMON: Right. Right. I should have said that. But yes. So, while in Brooklyn College she was confirmed as a Supreme Court justice. And I just remember signs all over Brooklyn and people being so happy of a Brooklyn girl.
You know -- you know, Laura, Jeffrey talked about what she did for women and for equal rights and really, just for civil rights and justice in this country. I ask Kaitlan Collins what the justice meant to her. What did this justice -- Justice Ginsburg (Ph) -- Ginsburg -- mean to you?
[22:19:57]
LAURA COATES, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: If you could have seen my phone that blew up the second, I heard that she passed. I actually had a visceral and vocal reaction. I actually screamed out no. Because I knew just what a monumental passing this was.
This is somebody who has been iconic, somebody who has been inspiration for me throughout my legal career, much like my other icon Thurgood Marshall and Charles Hamilton Houston, two profound legal architects who were able to channel and infuse what had happened to them at the hands of bigotry and prejudice.
And then be able to create a blueprint of how to dismantle the system. She was on that same pedestal. I even fan girls out when I walk, she would walk by me, when I saw the RBG movie, and she was in the theater. And she walked by and I remember going, my God, my God. It's her. It's her. Really, it's her.
But I was reading back in my mind all the opinions. And I would actually take the time, when a new opinion came out in the Supreme Court, I would read her dissent before I even barely perused the majority holding. Why? Because I wanted to know how a real mastermind was able to frame the question, and I would dare that majority opinion to try to reconcile how they could not see it her way.
I mean, this is somebody who was an intellectual powerhouse. And also, with somebody who can relay information and convey in a way that simply took into account sociological factors, the political factors, and common sense.
I mean, if you believe in same sex marriage, if you believe in gender equality, If you believe in equal pay, if you believe in disability rights, if you believe that there should not be electoral disfranchisement, then you believe in Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg.
She was notorious and that. I know it's tongue and cheek, but she was notorious and being able to demonstrate the reasoning. And she knew the gravitas. She knew the weight of her opinion and her dissents on future holdings. And it's such a loss today. Especially, you heard Jeffrey talk about and other have.
People call her the Thurgood Marshall of women's rights and gender equality. If that moniker certainly holds, and I am very fearful of what happens with her replacement nomination process. Because you'll recall who replaced Thurgood Marshall, an ideological opposite in Clarence Thomas.
And you know, people can quibble about, you know, whether there should be a mirror image of a successor and predecessor. There is no requirement there be so. But if you really believe in all of those facts and the balanced court and the idea of having objectivity, I hope that the Supreme Court nomination process through President Trump, through Mitch McConnell and the Senate will take a nod out of understanding the weight of what it means to have a woman in the Supreme Court, and not just one in form, but in substance, who believes in the ideals of America.
LEMON: Yes. Laura, Jeffrey, I want you to stand by. I need you guy, you know, legal eagles expert -- experts to help me get throughout the next few hours here on CNN.
But I want you to move on. We'll get back to you, guys because Biden reacting just a little while ago to the death of Ruth Bader Ginsburg.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOE BIDEN (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: We learned of the death of Ruth Bader Ginsburg who is not only a giant in the legal profession, but a beloved figure. And my heart goes out to all those who cared for her and care about her. She practiced the highest American ideals as a justice, equality and justice under the law. And Ruth Bader Ginsburg stood, stood for all of us.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: I want to bring in Senator Amy Klobuchar, a Democrat of Minnesota who is a member of the judiciary committee. Senator, hello to you.
SEN. AMY KLOBUCHAR (D-MN): Thanks, Don.
LEMON: Not all heroes were capes. Some of them wear robes, right?
KLOBUCHAR: Yes, exactly. You know, Justice Ginsburg had this unique ability in her 80s to be cool. She was someone that young women worshipped. She was someone that they wanted -- I remember my daughter and I, when she was in college, we were at an event and we had her picture taken and she came up to me later and said mom, I hope you don't mind, I've got to put the notorious RBG on my Facebook page, but I'm going to cut you out of it.
And that's because she was the symbol for young women that anything and everything was possible. She is the second woman ever appointed to the Supreme Court. A court that she had argued before that people told her, no, you shouldn't do this argument. We should have a man do it. And she went there and she protected women in this country against discrimination for all-time with her landmark work.
[22:24:58]
And I think one thing that isn't talked about a lot today is the fact that she had such strong, smart opinions about the law, but she also had friendships with unlikely people like Justice Scalia because she valued the institution of the court.
And so, I think for that reason, in addition to so many that you've discussed today, her wishes should be granted. She said, my most fervent wish, this was right before her death. My most fervent wish is that I will not be replaced until a new president is installed. And I think we would have to remember that those who were her parting words.
LEMON: I've got to ask you. Because you know, you were -- both -- you and I are both old enough to remember 2016 what happened with Merrick Garland. But you've also read this letter from Senator McConnell. He says that he is moving forward with a nomination. What do you say to that?
KLOBUCHAR: I quote his words actually Senator Schumer tweeted out today, the American people should have a voice in this election of their next Supreme Court justice, therefore this vacancy should not be filled until we have a new president.
Those were the words of Mitch McConnell, Don. Chuck Schumer with simply taking his words and using them and putting them out there for everyone to see. And a number of my colleagues, no matter what Mitch McConnell says tonight, they are going to have to look back and look in their own souls, and look at what they said, and look at the fact that we are only 40 some days away from an election.
And seek justice, just like Justice Ginsburg did every single day of her life. And that is to allow, as Vice President Biden said, the American people to pick the president, and the president to pick the Supreme Court justice.
LEMON: But you know, Justice Scalia died in February, 11 months, I think he died 11 months before the election, almost. You know, Mitch McConnell said no, we should not do it in 11 months. This is just a little bit --
(CROSSTALK)
KLOBUCHAR: I think that was time remaining in the term.
LEMON: -- over into six weeks. Yes, this is a month until the election.
KLOBUCHAR: Exactly. It's even closer. And you look at the timelines for Supreme Court hearings. You look at where the people are right now. And that's something, again, Mitch McConnell, they say what he can't tonight, but each of my colleagues, independently elected in their states. Many of them up for election right now are going to have to make their own decisions about their own morals, their own compass. I think that is a really important thing right now. So tonight, we
mourn the loss of an icon, of a hero, of someone that literally can't be replaced. But she had a last wish, and that was to make sure that the voice of the people could be heard, the people that she spent her life fighting for.
LEMON: Senator Klobuchar, at least four of your Senate GOP colleagues are on record saying that they would not vote for a Supreme Court justice at this juncture of the election process. Susan Collins told the New York Times in October. I think it's too close. I really do.
Senator Lisa Murkowski in September said fair is fair and she would not vote to replace RBG before the election. And then, you know, Lindsey Graham, in October --
(CROSSTALK)
KLOBUCHAR: Lindsey Graham.
LEMON: -- of 2018 says if an opening comes in the last year of the president's term, the primary processes has started, we'll wait till the next election, and I've got a pretty good chance of being the judiciary chairman, he said, hold their tape.
So, all right, go on. Chuck Grassley said in July that he would follow the Biden rule. I'm not just, this is a quote, "I'm just following what was established by the Biden rule in 1986," and then emphasized by him in 1992. They set the pattern. I didn't set the pattern, but it was very legitimate that you can't have one rule for Democratic presidents and another role for Republican presidents. So what do you think?
KLOBUCHAR: Couldn't be clear. Couldn't be clearer.
LEMON: As simple as that.
KLOBUCHAR: These people were all elected and their states by the people of their state, and they made very clear statements, so that's why when you look at our country, you look at what Justice Ginsburg stood for, which was of course this hero of civil rights. The person that argued the cases that no one thought you could win, and won of them.
The person that no one thought like someone like Ruth Bader Ginsburg would end up on the Supreme Court, but she did. The person who no one thought in their 80s could be this cultural icon, but she did. And so that's her. And that's who we are talking about replacing, and this is about justice, but justice also means an institution and a democracy. This is my colleague's moment of reckoning.
LEMON: Do you really believe in this moment when the place we are now in this country and with politics especially, you know, such division, do you really think that Mitch McConnell will abide by what he said back in 2016?
[22:30:04] KLOBUCHAR: He has already said that he won't abide by it, Don, but that doesn't mean every other person makes a moral decision to follow him.
LEMON: You're on the judiciary committee.
(CROSSTALK)
KLOBUCHAR: Down that spiral and down that vortex.
LEMON: Yes.
KLOBUCHAR: That doesn't mean they do. So that's my first thing. The second thing is, she has just died. And the American people are speaking out. There are people that are showing up, mourning her. It's an incredible emotional reaction for people, for a good reason across this country, so you know, I don't think just a few hours after her death is announced is the time to predict.
I mean you're doing your job, that's what you're supposed to do, but I don't think it's the time to say for certain what we think any of them will do.
LEMON: Yes. Well, and the reason I ask --
(CROSSTALK)
KLOBUCHAR: Because they are going to have to look inside their own being for them to make this decision.
LEMON: I don't disagree with you with that but the reason I ask is because of what Mitch McConnell said then and did then.
KLOBUCHAR: Yes.
LEMON: And that he has released a statement saying that the president will have a vote before the end of the year. So I think I must ask you that. And I have to ask you, because you are on the judiciary committee. Is there -- what do you plan to do?
KLOBUCHAR: Well, I'm waiting for --
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: You will have a say in this process.
KLOBUCHAR: Of course, when the new president nominates a justice, which I believe, is what must happen. Then, I will, as part of my duties look at the qualifications of that person and make a decision. That's what we do.
But the key thing here, is that this president was set in a big, big way, very recently, not 100 years ago, and not 50 years ago, this precedent was set when Merrick Garland and what happened to him. And all of these colleagues of mine had made these statements. So, you know, I just, for me, I always think of this incredible figure
that Justice Ginsburg is, and was. It's hard to say was. And think of that she also stood for our democracy, the way she carried on business, the way she had those friendship with people like Justice Scalia. They've also got to think about that in the institution of our democracy.
At a time when this president, as you note, is just throwing us into a divide. And Joe Biden was just in Minnesota today, as you know. President Trump was there as well. Joe Biden is such a steady force right now that this country needs, especially in making a decision about who the next justice should be.
LEMON: Yes.
KLOBUCHAR: And I just -- there is a reason that he is way ahead in my state, Joe Biden.
LEMON: Yes.
KLOBUCHAR: And that's because you got a lot of people who are sick and tired of this divide, and that includes what you're hearing from Mitch McConnell about the Supreme Court.
LEMON: I just think about when just hearing your voice, it just sort of, takes me back over the last couple of years, senator. Because you and I have seen each other so many times during the nomination and the running the campaign of Donald Trump, during his tenure. And then, me conducting a debate, and also town halls with you, as we were running for president yourself.
And now, sadly, I'm speaking with you about the death of a legend. And it just seems that the news comes pouring in like a fire hose just over the last few years.
(CROSSTALK)
KLOBUCHAR: It does except -- the thing that sustains me through all of this is just ordinary people doing extraordinary things. Those people showing up tonight at the Supreme Court. The republicans who have spoken up on that Democratic convention stage in favor of Joe Biden, saying enough is enough, they cannot stomach this anymore that our country is bigger than this one man that's in the White House right now. Or the people, who despite this pandemic, are still going to work every single day.
So that's what gives me this hope, as I was up in Duluth today with Vice President Biden, meeting with carpenters, and steel workers, and ordinary people. And hearing his words to them and the hope that he gave them that we're going to get through this.
LEMON: Yes.
KLOBUCHAR: That we're going to come out the other end. But we cannot let this man in the White House continue to divide this country.
LEMON: Yes.
KLOBUCHAR: It's time for a change, and it's time to hold people accountable. If they're not going to follow their own words, if they are basically going to tell the American people, hey, don't worry, we got this, we're not going to ever put anyone on at the last minute and just play politics. We're going to wait. And they said that so clearly, then they have got to be true to their words.
LEMON: Yes. Well, this is what happen -- this is what elections are all about. This is what the person in the White House gets to do. Choose who the next, or at least nominate Supreme Court justices. Thank you, Senator.
KLOBUCHAR: Exactly.
LEMON: Thank you very much.
KLOBUCHAR: All right. Thanks, Don. Thanks for having me on.
LEMON: I appreciate you joining us. You be well. You be well.
KLOBUCHAR: Thank you.
LEMON: We are going to be right back with more on our breaking news coverage, the death of justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg.
[22:35:05]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: A historic breaking news tonight, the death of Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg, she passed away at her home in Washington, surrounded by her family. She was 87 years old.
Former President Bill Clinton who nominated Justice Ginsburg to the Supreme Court issuing a statement, and it reads, it says, her 27 years on the court exceeded even my highest expectations when I appointed her. Her landmark opinions advancing gender equality, marriage equality, the rights of people with disabilities, the rights of immigrants, and so many more moved us closer to a more perfect union.
Her powerful dissents, especially her ringing defense of voting rights and other equal protection claims, reminded us that we walk away from our Constitution's promise at our peril. And she did it all with kindness, grace, and calm, treating even her strongest adversaries with respect.
Hillary and I miss her terribly, and will be forever be grateful for her life's work and her friendship. Our thoughts and prayers are with Jane, James, their families, and everyone across America who look to Justice Ginsburg for guidance, inspiration, and strength.
[22:40:07]
That said now, I want to bring in CNN's chief political correspondent, Gloria Borger -- Dana Bash, and also Gloria Borger, our chief political analyst. Good evening to both of you. How are you guys doing? Not a great night, is it?
GLORIA BORGER, CNN CHIEF POLITICAL ANALYST: Hi, Don.
DANA BASH, CNN CHIEF POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: No.
LEMON: I said at the top of the show --
BORGER: It is not.
LEMON: -- that I am keenly aware of what this means, especially to women in this country, who, especially when Ruth Bader Ginsburg was coming along did not have equal rights or equal treatment. And for her to do what she did in that moment and in that time was pretty gutsy, for a lack of a better term.
BORGER: Yes.
LEMON: Pretty RBG-ish. And it means a lot to women, not just in America, Gloria, but all over the world.
BORGER: I think it does. And that's why I think you're seeing a lot of people on the steps of the Supreme Court, and why our phones have been blowing up all night. And you know, I can -- I can speak for my generation of women and I think for women of all generations, that we wouldn't stand where we are if it weren't for Ruth Bader Ginsburg.
And I'll let Dana talk about this. But she, you know, she was not only a judicial legacy, but she was, you know, she's someone in this country as a woman who paved the way for other women to make sure that we could do the jobs we wanted to do, the way we wanted to do them. And that we would be respected for our skills and our talents. I think we owe her an enormous amount.
LEMON: Well, and speaking --
(CROSSTALK)
BORGER: I'll let you talk now, Dana.
LEMON: And I was just going to say, but speaking of talent, because, Dana, listen. There is no argument about it, she paved the way for a lot of people and especially for women. And very talented women like yourself who know that this will be a cataclysmic political battle. You have great sources on the Hill, and it's your job to do that reporting tonight on that. And what are -- your thoughts on her and what this means to the court?
BASH: Can I answer that in one second, and just tell you a little anecdote about what happened tonight in my house?
LEMON: Absolutely.
BASH: That gives you a context --
LEMON: Absolutely. BASH: -- context to how she has completely in the psyche and understanding of people across generations and genders. My nine-year- old son was the one who saw it and said, my goodness. And he immediately took out a children's book that he got from a relative called, "I Dissent," and started reading it to his younger cousins who are at my house outside for the holiday tonight.
I mean, if that doesn't tell you, you know, everything you need to know about how pervasive her legend, and the fact that she was a living legend until now, I don't know, I don't know what does.
But on the politics of this and on the very real, raw, vicious political fight that we are frankly already seeing, it is going to be intense. And we are already seeing and hearing from Mitch McConnell, the Senate Republican majority leader whose life mission, never mind right now, but life mission is to get as many conservatives on the federal bench as possible.
And it is the crown jewel, of course, to do so on the Supreme Court. He's already said that he is going to do this as soon as possible, and I'm getting texts from Democratic sources including senators, saying that there is a math scramble to try to find the four. It's a numbers game at this point if Mitch McConnell can do this either in the short term or more likely in what's called the lame duck session, so the session after the election. And it's four people, four Republicans because of the numbers in the Senate who they would have to ship away at.
There's also discussion about whether, for example, Mark Kelly, if he wins --
LEMON: Arizona.
BASH: -- now Republican Senate seat in Arizona because that Martha McSally was appointed, whether he could be sworn in early, which would bring it down to three Republicans, that Democrats would have to hold on to.
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: And that will happen he would be sworn in November.
BASH: Potentially.
LEMON: Potentially.
BASH: Potentially. Potentially.
BORGER: Right.
LEMON: Yes.
BASH: I think a lot of that is up in the air.
LEMON: Yes.
BASH: That just goes to show you how things are going right now.
BORGER: And let me --
LEMON: But then --hold on. All of it, it's all out the door if Donald Trump wins. Then he gets to decide no matter what, it doesn't really matter. But go on, Gloria.
BASH: Good. Good point.
BORGER: Sure. Yes. I don't know, yes, if Donald Trump wins. But there are so many what ifs here, as Dana is pointing out. But what if Donald Trump loses? What if the Democrats end up controlling the Senate? What would the American public do then? What do moderate Republicans do? Who are already on the record, like Susan Collins, and Lisa Murkowski, already on the record saying, you know, I don't think this is right.
[22:45:00]
I don't think this is the way to behave, we have to wait until the president is elected, and then we ought to see who the president is, and then we ought to decide whatever happened to the Senate, which is supposed to have rules and decorum. I mean, this, right now, looks to be a brawl and the American public is going to have to weigh in and say, wait a minute. This isn't right, this isn't fair, this isn't the right way to behave.
Mitch McConnell makes an argument, well, 2016 with Merrick Garland was different, now you have a Senate and a White House, both run by Republicans. So, this is the different? I don't know if the American public is going to buy it.
LEMON: I know. But, Gloria --
BORGER: What I do know is that this fight is going to energize the base --
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: That's where I'm going.
BASH: Exactly.
LEMON: Yes, it's going to energize the base of both parties. It's going to energize women, especially women in the suburbs who are maybe concerned about women's rights, correct?
BORGER: Yes.
LEMON: And people -- and I'm talking about the Democratic Party who lean Democrat who are concerned about women's rights, and who are concerned about the -- about equal justice and so on. And Democrats who may have been sitting on the sidelines saying well it's not so important, they're going to go well, it's really important now. But then it's also, --
BORGER: Yes. LEMON: -- the president's base will say we have to make sure this happened so that the president gets to make, to have a Supreme Court nominee. But, you know, I just --
BORGER: Yes.
LEMON: -- it's amazing to me to see people who OK, no, we shouldn't do think until there is a new president 11 months before the last election and now saying we're going to get it. Go on. Sorry for talking so long.
BORGER: Are you going to say there are no hypocrites in the Senate? Are you telling me that, Don?
LEMON: No. You would know better --
(CROSSTALK)
BORGER: Because I don't believe that.
LEMON: -- because you work in Washington.
BORGER: I really don' believe that.
LEMON: This is your life's mission.
BORGER: I really don't believe that.
LEMON: Yes.
BORGER: By the way, look for Mitt Romney. Let's see what Mitt Romney is going to say on this. I'm very curious about it.
LEMON: Yes.
BASH: Yes. And his office is saying that he is not going to say anything tonight, despite the fact that there are rumors that --
BORGER: Right.
BASH -- at some point soon he will come out and say what Senator Lisa Murkowski --
(CROSSTALK)
BORGER: That's what --
LEMON: Hey, Dana.
BASH: -- of Alaska said. Yes?
LEMON: Let me ask you. Because let's just say, regardless of who wins. If they put this process into motion during this already bitter divided election, doesn't that just start the ball rolling regardless of what happens after the election and who gets to nominate or who or whom or whatever that people will be yelling hypocrite, and other will be yelling do it. It's just going to add more fuel to the fire?
BASH: Yes. Like you said, more fuel to the fire in both bases. I have to tell you I have been hearing from some worried Democrats tonight that the Democratic base has been pretty fired up, and that the Trump -- the Trump base really loves him, obviously, but then there certainly have been people who are traditional Republicans who don't love this president who might say, well, if the Supreme Court is at stake right now, it is not hypothetical, theoretical --
BORGER: Right.
BASH: -- we need to do it right the second. The other important thing is that the whole overlay of this campaign has been COVID and has been the pandemic, which has been a referendum on this president. And now, obviously, the pandemic, unfortunately is still going on, but this injects a whole different narrative into the race that only benefits the president, in that it's not COVID.
LEMON: Right.
BASH: And as a Democrat said to me tonight, the COVID election is now the SCOTUS election, meaning Supreme Court of the United States.
LEMON: Yes. Thank you both.
BORGER: But we don't know what Biden is going to do, yet. We just -- you know, Biden spoke tonight, but he didn't -- he didn't lay his cards on the table. Is Biden going to come out and say this is kind of person I would nominate, or this is, you know, I would nominate x, y, or z.
BASH: That's a great point.
BORGER: Or is -- you know, how is -- how is Biden going to respond to this as a presidential candidate, and how can he tie that to leadership and fairness. And you know, there's a whole -- this has to play out --
LEMON: Yes.
BORGER: -- an awful lot.
LEMON: Well, again, thank you. And as Dana said, this is, you know, sadly, we have talked about the bitter partisanship.
BORGER: Sure.
LEMON: Because this has --
BORGER: Yes.
LEMON: -- this is a consequential moment for our country. But thank you both. We have to remember though --
BORGER: Sure is.
LEMON: -- Ruth Bader Ginsburg, 87 years old. Just a legend and an icon.
BORGER: Excellent.
LEMON: An iconic woman in Supreme Court justice has died. And I have one of her former clerks standing by.
So, our breaking news tonight is that Ruth Bader Ginsburg is dead at 87.
I want to bring in Marco Schlanger, professor of law at the University of Michigan, and as I said as a former clerk of Justice Ginsburg. First of all, Margo, I want to thank you for coming on. And I want to tell you how sorry I am for the loss for the country and for you as well having -- had the privilege to work for her to clerk with her.
[22:50:03]
I just want to read this from NPR, a report about her passing. And it says, just days before her death, as her strength waned, Ginsburg dictated this statement to her granddaughter Clara Spera. My most fervent wish is that I will not be replaced until a new president is installed.
Margo, why do you think that would be so important to her?
MARGO SCHLANGER, CLERKED FOR JUSTICE RUTH BADER GINSBURG: Well, I think that Justice Ginsburg stood for the paramount importance of equality and in doing that, she wrote some really important majorities, but she also ended up in dissent in a bunch of cases. And I think it's really, it was really important to her that her successor care about equality and care about civil rights in the way that she did. And I think she was hopeful that that would happen.
LEMON: You know, you have said that working for her was a formative experience for you, both professionally and personally. Can you talk about that, please?
SCHLANGER: Yes. I clerked for Justice Ginsburg her first two terms on the court. So, I was in her chambers for two years as my earliest job as a lawyer. And so, I had the privilege to watch her become a justice. She had -- she was an experienced judge, but I had the privilege to watch her become a justice.
And I learned from her just an unbelievable amount about what good lawyering looks like, about doing your best work every time we do anything. And personally, about what a marriage of equals looks like. My husband actually clerked for her as well two years later. And so we were --
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: You stole my next question, Margo, but go on.
SCHLANGER: Sorry. Yes. So, Sam clerked for her two years later. And we met because she -- I had that job and he got that job. And so, I also just owe her. She didn't introduce us exactly, but she is the -- as they say it in law, she is the but for a cause, we would never have met if it weren't for her.
LEMON: So, you guys got together because both of you -- you were leaving and he was coming in?
SCHLANGER: We were --
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: Did you over lap --
SCHLANGER: -- we overlapped at the Justice Department.
LEMON: OK. Yes.
SCHLANGER: We overlapped at the Justice Department. I left and went to the Justice Department. And he was at the Justice Department for the year before he started.
LEMON: Wow.
SCHLANGER: So, we overlapped there. I was just done. He was -- he was knowing going into that job, and so we had, you know, we had lunch. We got to be friendly.
LEMON: What was his experience like? I mean, was he -- was she a mentor for him as well?
SCHLANGER: For sure. For sure. I mean, both of us -- both of us have tried -- you know, Justice Ginsburg, when she was a law professor, combined this life as a civil rights advocate with a life as a law professor, a teacher and a mentor to her students. And for both of us, we have tried to build that same combination in our careers. And for both of us, I think watching her marriage, you know, before we were married, was really important. Seeing what that looks like was really important.
LEMON: So, take us behind closed doors, Margo. What was she like? What was she like to work for her? To be around her?
SCHLANGER: Yes, so anybody who has heard Justice Ginsburg speak knows that she speaks very slowly. And so, the biggest part of being around her was remembering that, you know, slow speech didn't mean slow mind. And you had to -- you had to kind of count to three before you bumped into a conversation.
So, and then she'd come out with whatever she had to say, and it was insightful and to the point and kind of dead on with whatever. If you had just made an argument to her, dead on with what the problem with what your argument was. So. But speaking very slowly. And so that made for some humorous situations.
LEMON: Marco Schlanger, thank you so much. We really appreciate you joining us. And again, we are so sorry for your loss, having known her.
SCHLANGER: Thank you. LEMON: And clerked for her and her being an example for your marriage and your career. And we're happy that you met your husband there. And I'm sure she was as well. Thank you so much.
SCHLANGER: Yes, I think she was. Thank you.
LEMON: I want to bring in now Irin Carmon, a CNN contributor, the co- author of "Notorious RBG: The Life and Times of Ruth Bader Ginsburg." Julie Cohen, co-director of RBG. Thank you so much, both of you, for joining us.
Irin, Ruth Bader Ginsburg was a giant. You spent an enormous amount of time with Justice Ginsburg writing "Notorious RBG: The Life and Times of Ruth Bader Ginsburg." What was she really like?
[22:55:05]
IRIN CARMON, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: She was someone who had so much integrity. She was someone who you couldn't always read from the outside but you always knew that there were so many thoughts happening inside. When I was unfortunately having to write the essay but ran today as her obituary for New York magazine, I'm thinking about how one of her most incredible qualities was her mind, her ability to think creatively and innovatively about how to get to gender equality.
She was strategic. She was smart. But she also -- she wasn't just working towards women equality. She liked to think she was working for women and men's liberation. And if she hadn't led such a full life herself, I don't think she would have thought, you know, about such an expansive vision of equality. She was someone who both had a loving marriage and loved to go to the opera, loved to laugh at boisterous jokes while also having this deep reserve of commitment to justice and the law.
LEMON: Yes. Irin, I also want to ask you. She dictated a statement to her granddaughter, which we have read. She did it just days before her death. And it says that her most fervent wish is that I will not be replaced until a new president is installed. Listen, she made no secret, Irin, of her feeling about the current administration.
CARMON: Yes, in fact, to CNN she calls him a faker. She was (Inaudible) by the fact that he never discloses his taxes. He stands for everything that she fought against her entire life. This is bitter tragic day. This is really the day that many of us feared would come that we never wanted to see a specter in which Donald Trump would be the person to replace this giant of gender equality who was also committed to racial justice and civil rights.
LEMON: This seems very personal to you. I can hear it in your voice.
CARMON: You know, it is personal. She officiated my wedding. She -- I had a daughter three months ago and she sent me a gift. She actually, she got in touch with me a day later after the baby was born. And it was during the week of the Supreme Court's decisions. So, yes, I had the honor to both write about her life, to report on the work that she did. But I also got a chance to know her as a person. And it was the great honor of my career.
LEMON: Irin, thanks for that. Julie, you co-directed the film for CNN. And I just want to play, this is a small clip of that film where she talks about her mother and how she influenced her, Ruth's life. Watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GINSBURG: My mother died when I was 17. I wish I could have had her longer. She had 2 lessons that she repeated over and over. Be a lady. And be independent. Don't allow yourself to be overcome by useless emotions like anger, and by independent, she meant it would be fine if you met prince charming and live happily ever after, but be able to fend for yourself.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: In so many ways she followed that advice. What stuck out most to you about her? What do you -- what -- tell us about it.
JULIE COHEN, CO-DIRECTOR, RBG: You know, I mean, so many people have said she had an incredible mind, an extraordinary life. The thing that sticks out to me the most is her fierce determination. We had the great joy and honor to be in the room with her and her personal trainer, filming her doing a workout. And just the fierceness with which she plunged into doing planks and pushups and lifting weights.
You know, it was amazing to see, but it was also a metaphor for a lot of her life. Like she, you know, every challenge that came her way, she was ready to fight back. She was ready to put her all into that. And despite the fact that she was a serious person, she had a lot of joy, and a lot of humor, a lot of sparkle.
LEMON: You know, and she said, she talked about it. She said it was beyond her wild dreams that she would be one day would be known as the notorious RBG. How did she feel about it?
COHEN: You know, you might think that someone whose whole life is the seriousness of constitutional law wouldn't -- wouldn't love being or having that moniker, but actually, even when that came to her in her 80s, she really seemed to enjoy it. We were present a number of times when was in front of a young audience, kind of telling the joke that her and the notorious BIG had quite a bit in common because they were both born and bred in Brooklyn, and the crowd would laugh, and she would just like, eat it up.
[23:00:02]
She really, she got that joke and she really enjoyed the fact that young people were seeing her as a popstar.
LEMON: Yes.
