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Don Lemon Tonight
Two Officers Shot During Protests Over Grand Jury Decision Not To Charge Louisville Cops With Killing Breonna Taylor; President Trump Refuses To Commit To A Peaceful Transition Of Power After Election Day. Aired 10-11p ET
Aired September 23, 2020 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[22:00:00]
CHRIS CUOMO, CNN HOST: I've got to pass the baton to the star, D. Lemon. "CNN TONIGHT" continues. We are monitoring coverage in Louisville. The police are about to have a presser. As soon as it does, Don will go to it.
DON LEMON, CNN HOST: And here we go with another night of unrest in America, after so many nights, both of us covered this summer, Chris. I'm going to get straight to it. Thank you. I'll see you soon, buddy.
This is our breaking news tonight, protests in cities around the country, demanding justice for Breonna Taylor.
I want to get straight now to CNN's Jason Carroll. Jason is in Louisville where a curfew went into effect an hour ago and where police are waiting a press conference. Jason, take it away. We got (ph) at least one police officer. What do you know? What happened?
JASON CARROLL, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Right. We are waiting, Don, for more information about that officer that has been shot any moment now. We are waiting to hear from Police Chief Robert Schroeder. He is expected to give us more details about what happened.
But let me just review and get to the point where we can really explain how we got to the point where that officer was shot. It all started just at about 8:00. We were at Jefferson Square Park. The crowd started to become more and more agitated. Some of them start to set small fires.
Then minutes later, at about 8:15, a crowd of a couple hundred broke off from the park, started marching towards downtown Louisville. Once they reached an overpass, we heard what sounded like to be fireworks.
And then shortly thereafter, seconds later, Don, we heard what sounded to be like gunfire. Then everyone started running. And then seconds later, after we were able to secure a location, we heard word that an officer had been shot. I want you to listen to what it sounded like from one of the camera positions.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CROWD: (INAUDIBLE). (GUNFIRE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Shots fired.
(SIREN)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (voice-over): Officer down right there.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (voice-over): Officer down?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (voice-over): Yes.
(SIREN)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CARROLL: So you can see some really tense moments there as we were all there trying to take cover, trying to determine what had happened. But again, we are awaiting word right now from Police Chief Robert Schroeder where we are expected to get more information about what exactly happened to the officer.
And, you know, just from the Taylor family's perspective, you know, Don, we have heard over and over, they have said that they wanted protests tonight and going forward to be peaceful. Certainly that is not what we saw at the end of this night.
LEMON: So Jason, just to -- just to reiterate here, we know nothing about the circumstances. Who did it, you know, where officers -- what was the officer shot with, nothing. We are still awaiting this press conference to get that information?
CARROLL: The only word that officers, that police have given us at this point is that an officer has been shot, period. They say that they are going to give us more information again in a few minutes.
I can tell you just from looking at a number of folks who are in the crowd that we saw a number of people carrying weapons. But again, this is the state of Kentucky. It's open carry. It is legal to carry weapons here.
But it certainly gives a heightened state of tension for officers who are out here trying to manage, trying to police what's going on as protestors march throughout the streets.
But once again, police were not giving us any details. They said we are going to have to wait until the chief gets here. He's expected in a few minutes.
LEMON: Jason Carroll, Jason on the scene. And Jason, we'll get back when police have that press conference in Louisville. Thank you.
Alex Marquardt is covering the story for us from Washington, D.C., where protesters are near the Capitol. Alex, you have been marching with the protesters. What are you seeing? What are you hearing from these protesters? What are they saying about this verdict? ALEX MARQUARDT, CNN SENIOR NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, Don, we have been marching with these protesters from the White House for about an hour. I got to tell you that just since you got on the air in the last few moments, this has taken a turn for a much more violent march.
I just want to turn around here. This is the line of riot police. Until now, we have not seen police in this kind of gear. That has really indicated that there has been a significant escalation in just the last few moments.
The protesters have started going down this way in response. It's unclear what prompted this police response. Until now, I'm not going to say it has been peaceful, but it hasn't quite been violent.
Since leaving the White House where it was a quiet, somber, more peaceful march, these protesters have been marching through some of the nicer parts of D.C. through neighborhoods with restaurants and bars and apartments, chanting all sorts of things, anti-justification slogans and antipolice slogans.
Some have been banging on street signs with batons and bats. Fireworks have been fired off. We have seen graffiti sprayed on a variety of buildings and even seen an Antifa flag clearly being flown and waved at the front of the march.
[22:05:03]
MARQUARDT: We are now at the back of the march. Again, Don, we started with this march at the White House about an hour ago. We are now in Adams Morgan. There had until about five minutes ago not been any confrontation with the police. The police are allowing this crown to essentially go wherever they want, to escort them. You can see here, the police are on bikes. They are not in riot gear.
But Don, as you know, there is a point usually in these protests where you wonder which way it is going to go. Is it going to stay peaceful or relatively quiet, which it had been, or is it going to get violent, which we have just seen indications of.
For now, this crowd is continuing to walk through Adams Morgan here in Washington, D.C., Don.
LEMON: So right where you are now, it doesn't look particularly violent. It does look like there is chaos there, Alex. Is there a stronger presence of police or response from police? Talk to me about that.
MARQUARDT: Yeah, it had been much stronger. The reason that it looks quieter is because the march had moved on as the police moved in. The police were chanting, move back. And move back they did.
The crowd certainly has shown no sign of dissipating or going home. They are just moving on. They did not engage with the police. We did see one young man, I believe, taken into custody.
But other than that, there have not been violent altercations with the police. The police are not wearing gas masks, which usually a sign that they at least for now are not planning on firing tear gas.
But the protesters themselves, as we left the White House, they did start putting on helmets, goggles, start talking about keeping a tight group, and frankly talking about marching tactics. So, it's clear at least they thought there was a possibility that things could turn violent. We'll certainly see where it goes. For now, the march is continuing. Don?
LEMON: All right. Alex Marquardt, we'll get back to you. Alex, stay safe.
I want to get to CNN's Athena Jones now. She is in New York City, where there are protests you can see behind her. I understand you're near the Barclays Center in Brooklyn. Several hundred protesters gathered. What's going on, Athena?
ATHENA JONES, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Don, we began at the Barclays Center in Brooklyn several hours ago right before 7:00. That is where this crowd of hundreds gathered. It's hard to tell how many people are here now. They spent about half an hour or maybe an hour there before marching across the Manhattan Bridge.
We are now in Manhattan's east village on a very narrow street. That's why you're seeing sort of a crowded scene. But, you know, this is a group of people who had a peaceful march. But there's a lot of anger. There is a lot of frustration about the fact what they believe is the fundamental injustice in the law enforcement system, fundamental injustice in the Breonna Taylor case.
You're hearing the usual chants of Black Lives Matter say her name. But talking to folks who are here, they're frustrated. They say, look, yes the people are activated, the people are in the streets, but the real change in law enforcement in legal and policing, that is being slow to come. So there is a lot of frustration here.
I should mention that along with the streets and the Black Lives Matter protests and chants, we are seeing some signs that say things like Trump, Pence, out now. So, there is some politics in here, as well.
But the chief emotion is enough is enough. They really want to see black -- police held accountable for killing black people, black women, black men, black trans people and queers. So you are seeing hundreds and hundreds of people out here coming out for this cause. Don?
LEMON: Athena, hundreds and hundreds of people. You said the Black Lives Matter group is there, as well. This group is extremely diverse behind you. This isn't just black folks out there marching.
JONES: Oh, no. No, no. By no means, all races -- at Barclays Center, at least, I mean, they don't have strollers here now. But at Barclays Center, there were children in strollers with their parents. Everyone is wearing a mask. There was even someone in an electric wheelchair out at the Barclays Center chanting. But I got to tell you, this has been a very fast-paced march. At the beginning, when we were still in Brooklyn, there was a guy on roller skates, you know, a lot of bicycles. So it has been at times kind of diffused. You even had police kind of trying to catch up and figure out which direction this crowd is going in at some point after they broke up a little bit over the Manhattan Bridge.
But it is a very motivated crowd. It doesn't seem to have lessened very much. There are still hundreds of people out here marching now in the streets of Manhattan and continuing to chant and demanding accountability.
LEMON: And I hear them saying Breonna Taylor's name.
[22:10:00]
LEMON: Athena, we'll get back to you. Be safe. We'll see you in moments. I want to get now to Atlanta. CNN's Martin Savidge joins us now. Martin, what's going on where you are?
MARTIN SAVIDGE, CNN ANCHOR AND CORRESPONDENT: Don, this protest has been going on for about three hours now. It has been peaceful up until about the last 15 minutes.
Let me show where we are, right outside the state capitol here and this is why there is all the concern, because you can see, you got a police presence here, as well as Georgia National Guard, and you got a very vocal crowd.
Most of this protest, when it was at its peak, had about several hundred demonstrators and it all peaceful, marching through the streets of downtown Atlanta.
But once they got to the state capitol, the attitudes began to change. Law enforcement presence was much more significant. We hadn't seen a lot of police during the marching. And now, there is a confrontation between the Georgia State Patrol, right here in their armoured vehicle, and the protesters which number maybe about 150 at this point. The numbers are down. But these are the hardcore and it's clear that a confrontation is brewing.
Law enforcement said that these people had just two minutes to clear the streets before they would start moving in and making arrests. They continue to announce over a loud speaker here, telling people they need to disperse or that they will be arrested. So, that's the way it plays out in the streets of Atlanta right now, Don.
LEMON: All right. Martin Savidge, thank you. We'll get back to you.
I want to get now to CNN's Shimon Prokupecz, who is also in Louisville tonight. It seems like from what I can see, obviously, there are officers behind you taking a very aggressive stance, but they are abiding by this 9:00 p.m. curfew.
And as I also understand, Shimon, you are very near where we have the video of them saying officer down and hearing those shots? SHIMON PROKUPECZ, CNN CRIME AND JUSTICE REPORTER: Yeah, I was in that area. We were following along as those protests and marchers were walking.
LEMON: Shimon, I want to get to the news conference. Please standby. We are waiting a news conference now. The chief, Robert Schroeder, is preparing for the conference. Let us listen in.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ROBERT SCHROEDER, CHIEF OF POLICE, LOUISVILLE METRO POLICE DEPARTMENT: Good evening. I am Robert Schroeder, chief of police of Louisville Metro Police Department. All the information I am about to give you is preliminary in nature and additional information may arise as the investigation continues.
At about 8:30 p.m. tonight, our officers were called to the area of Brooklyn College at a large crowd and shots fired in the area. As they were deploying to investigate what was going on at first in Broadway, shots rang out, and two of our officers were shot.
Both officers are currently undergoing treatment at University Hospital. One is in alert and stable. The other officer is currently undergoing surgery and stable. We do have one suspect in custody. That's all the information I currently have. I'll take any questions briefly.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (voice-over): What concerns do you have about these officers and the safety of more officers and the citizens on the streets tonight and the days to come?
SCHROEDER: If I understand your question correctly, how concerned am I about the officers and the citizen's safety? I am very concerned about the safety of our officers. Obviously we have had two officers shot tonight and it's very serious. It's a very dangerous condition. I think the safety of our officers and the community we serve is utmost importance.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (voice-over): Tell us about the injuries that the officers sustained. The one who is in surgery --
SCHROEDER: To my knowledge, they are both non-life threatening. That's about as deep as I can go right now.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (voice-over): Do you know --
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (voice-over): Do you have the names of the officers that were shot?
SCHROEDER: We're not releasing the names of the officers at this time.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (voice-over): Thank you, guys. Thank you, guys. Thank you, guys. We appreciate it.
(END VIDEO CLIP) LEMON: A very short news conference by the chief of police, the Louisville Metro Police Department. Chief Robert Schroeder there giving very limited information but also confirming that two officers have been shot. One is under -- both of them are undergoing treatment at University Hospital in Louisville. One is in surgery and stable. The other one is alert and stable.
He also confirmed one suspect in custody. Both of the officers' injuries, he believes, are non-threatening. Will not give the name of the officers, will not give the extent of the injuries, where they were shot, and will not give the name of the suspect, as well.
Again, saying two officers shot, being treated at local hospital there. At 8:30, he said, they were called -- officers were called for a large crowd in the area. Upon arriving or going out to the see what was going on, because they never really arrived at the -- where they said they were going which is Brooklyn College, he is saying somewhere near First Street, the officers were shot.
[22:14:59]
LEMON: So, again, two officers shot in Louisville, Kentucky tonight.
Let's get back now to CNN's Jason Carroll and talk to him about all of this. Jason, you heard the police chief there. He said the safety of the officers, also explaining why the officers were where they were, happened at 8:30. And now, the officers, one is being treated, the other one is in stable -- both are stable, one is being treated, one is not, both alert.
CARROLL: Right. And we were right there at First and Broadway, that overpass that I was telling you about, where we heard what sounded to be like fireworks and then heard the gunfire then everyone started running to take cover.
You also heard the police chief talk about how concerned he is for officers going forward. It's been a very tense situation with officers here in the ground given what's happened, particularly with the officers from the Louisville Metro Police Department.
You heard him say that we thought initially that it was one officer that had been shot. Now we're hearing it is two. You heard him say one is in stable condition, the other is in surgery, but their injuries are not life-threatening.
But you can hear the concern. You can see from the officers who are here on the ground. When you see them out here trying to interact with some of the protesters, some of the demonstrators, it was very clear, as word started to spread, Don, in terms of what happened with the grand jury, that the crowd was becoming more and agitated.
Again, you know, this was a crowd that started at Jefferson Square Park, where we see the memorial that has set up in some ways, if you will, for Breonna Taylor. And as the night started to go on and we got closer to curfew at 9:00 p.m., you can see that the crowd was starting to become more and more agitated, starting to light small fires. And then there is a group of about a couple hundred broke off from that park and started marching throughout downtown Louisville. Again, we saw some folks carrying weapons. Again, it is open carry, legal here. But then we heard the gunfire rang out. And now comes word that in fact, two officers have been shot.
This lies in the face of what Breonna Taylor's family wanted. I spoke to Breonna Taylor's mother. She said that she wanted protests to proceed for justice for her daughter, but she wanted them to be non- violent. She said those people who are out here in the past, who have been, you know, destroying property, that is not in her daughter's name.
So this is certainly not what Breonna Taylor's family wanted to see tonight. This is certainly not the situation that Louisville Metro Police want to find themselves in.
LEMON: Standby because I want to explain to the folks at home what we're seeing on the left side. You're seeing Jason in Louisville on the right side. On the left side, you see officers in Atlanta. Now, it's a full -- in a confrontation, it looks like, with protesters. Officers with their weapons pointed at protesters in the crowd.
And it looks like the protesters were -- let us see -- is that -- maybe that's a camera. I can't really make it out. Maybe it's a camera. So, don't quote me on that. I'm looking at these pictures. Obviously, they are live, coming in, and I am seeing them just as you are.
But it is sad. Here we go, another night after there is not a verdict in the case, but an investigation that does not seem to go the way that it should go for the family and also for the people who are involved and live in the town, in the places where these horrific events happen, and there's unrest in an American city.
We're watching this play out in Atlanta. Our Jason Carroll is in Louisville, Kentucky, as is our Shimon Prokupecz. Both were near the scene of the shooting by police officers -- of police officers, I should say, by one suspect who is in custody now, and also two officers who were involved. One is in surgery. The other is alert and stable. One is in surgery and stable. We will continue to try to get updates on them.
Shimon Prokupecz, back to you now. Officers now are in aggressive stance in Louisville. There was a 9:00 p.m. curfew. Take us through the streets now. What are you seeing?
PROKUPECZ: So, this is -- Jason talked about there during his live shot about Jefferson Square Park where they have set up this memorial for Breonna Taylor. You can see that just over my shoulder here. That entire area is set up as a memorial. This is where a lot of the protesters have been gathering for weeks now.
What's happening now is the police, they are not enforcing the curfew, right? The curfew took effect at 9:00. And they have allowed -- you can see the police here, Don, standing. This is the state police. These are the reinforcement that the Kentucky governor sent in along with the National Guard.
Of course, you have the Louisville Police Department, which has been patrolling most of the streets and dealing with the protesters that have left this area and have headed out through downtown and other parts of Louisville.
[22:20:02]
PROKUPECZ: I was with the group earlier, as well. There was some smaller group. There were some pockets of flare ups between police and protesters and they made arrests there. It all starts here and then they leave from here.
Most of the people here, it has been people. They have been voicing their opinions about police and the police here, the state police have just been standing by, allowing them to voice their opinion and anger.
For the most part, people here are just sitting around, standing around. And as I said, as for this area specifically, this is where city hall is, the courthouse is here, the local jail, the police are not enforcing the curfew. They are just allowing many of the people who are out here to remain as long as it stays peaceful. I think this is how it will remain here, Don.
LEMON: All right. Shimon Prokupecz, thank you very much.
We have breaking news happening in cities across the country. There are protesters who are upset about the officers not being charged in the death of Breonna Taylor. One officer is being charged but not directly in her death. We are going to be back with our breaking news on CNN. Don't go anywhere.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:25:00]
LEMON: All right, so, let's talk about the breaking news that is happening here. You're looking at pictures now. This is New York City, where there are hundreds of protesters who are out and about.
Our Athena Jones is with them, covering the story for us. She said that this protest started at the Barclays Center in Brooklyn and is now somewhere in East New York. These are pictures now from New York from our affiliate WABC. You can see an extremely large crowd of people out on the streets of New York City this evening.
Of course, they are upset and marching about the charges that were filed against one officer in the Breonna Taylor case and not the other two officers who are involved, that the charges for the one officer is not related specifically, I should say, to the Breonna Taylor's death, but the way he conducted himself during the shooting that evening.
I want to get now to pictures from Louisville, Kentucky, I believe. We have two reporters who are on the scene there, Shimon Prokupecz and our Jason Carroll. There was a 9:00 curfew in Louisville, Kentucky. There are still people out. But the shooting has of two police officers happening earlier. The police chief confirming two officers shot there. One is in surgery and stable. The other one is alert and not in surgery. They are being treated at a local hospital. Still, people are out in the street despite a curfew in Louisville, Kentucky.
There are protests also happening in Washington D.C. and Atlanta, Georgia, as well, this evening. We're keeping an eye on all of those protests. This is Washington D.C. where our Alex Marquardt has been out reporting the protesters there. And in Atlanta, our Martin Savidge is on the scene, keeping an eye on the protests for us there.
So, violence breaking out in Louisville tonight, where police confirmed two officers had been shot. One is alert and stable. One is in surgery. Their injuries reportedly are not life-threatening. One suspect is in custody. That's what we know right now. Police is not enforcing the curfew there.
Protests are spreading in the streets of major cities. All that after no one was charged today in the death of the 26 year-old EMT shot by police in her own home.
A grand jury did indict fired Louisville police officer Brett Hankison on three counts of wanton endangerment not for causing Breonna Taylor's death, but for what the police department said was wantonly and blindly firing into her apartment 10 times, those shots ripping through a neighboring apartment.
Two other officers who also fired shots during the botched March police raid were not indicted, meaning no one was charged with killing Breonna Taylor.
The Kentucky attorney general, his name is Daniel Cameron, is saying that the officers were justified in their use of force, because Taylor's boyfriend fired at them first.
Joe Biden is issuing a statement tonight, including this. He says, "Breonna Taylor was a beloved daughter, member of her community, and an essential worker who served as an EMT as COVID-19 began to spread. But she died, shot in her own home by the police. In the wake of her tragic death, we mourn with her mother, family and community, and ask ourselves whether justice can be equally applied in America."
I know for so many people, today's decision does not answer that call. I know people are frustrated and they have a right to peacefully protest. But violence is never acceptable. We can express pain, we can express grief and anger, disappointment at the way things are, but remain focused on rebuilding trust in our communities and delivering change that can be, the change that can be.
So we have all of this as we saw a stunning moment tonight from the White House podium. The president is refusing to commit a peaceful transition of power after an election that's only 41 days away.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Will you commit to making sure that there is a peaceful transferral of power after the election?
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We'll have to see what happens. You know that I have been complaining very strongly about the ballots, and the ballots are a disaster.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: We have never heard anything like that from the president of the United States. Never. Refusing to commit to a peaceful transfer of power. That is the basis of our democracy. But the fact is people have been warning about this for months. And now the president says -- he says it right out loud. Sounding a lot more like the strong man he's always kissing up to instead of the leader of the free world.
Joe Biden reacting tonight.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOE BIDEN (D) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: What country are we in? I'm being facetious. I said, what country are we in?
[22:30:01]
BIDEN: Look, he says the most irrational things. I don't know what to say about it. It doesn't surprise me.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: Not only is the president doubling down on his repeatedly debunked claim that there is something fraudulent about mail-in ballots, he seems to be saying, get rid of those ballots, and he'll win.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: Get rid of the ballots and you'll have a very trans -- you'll have a very peaceful -- there won't be a transfer, frankly. There will be a continuation. The ballots are out of control.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: This is why he wants his Supreme Court nominee in place, against the will of nearly 60 percent of Americans, who say the president elected in November should choose the next justice.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: I think this will end up in the Supreme Court. And I think it's very important that we have nine justices.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: He wants his own votes on the Supreme Court when he tries to throw out the ballots. Like he said just the other day, when you have the votes, you can do anything. Our White House correspondent is Kaitlan Collins. She joins us now. Kaitlan, good evening to you. Man, there is a lot of news going on. I appreciate you joining us here.
The president would not commit to a peaceful transition of power. This is not something that we expect to hear in the United States. Talk to me about it.
KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: No. It seemed like a pretty simple question. It was the first one he got out of the gate at today's briefing and then you saw what he said, we'll see what happens.
The president, you know, is not committing to that, and that is something that many people have criticized him for when he wouldn't raise his hand at some of the debates in the past, talking about accepting the election results as it in. It is something that even his campaign has tried to turn on to Hillary Clinton, talking about how she acted in the results of 2016.
The president saying tonight he would not commit to accepting what the results are going to be in this November election and whether or not there would be a peaceful transfer of power. Of course, something that's a staple of the American democracy.
And instead, he didn't really just say that, Don, he also went on to cast doubt, by the way, that we believe many people are going to be voting by election this fall which is, of course, by mail.
You have seen massive upticks in several states where people are requesting mail-in ballots that we have not seen before because, of course, the pandemic that we are living through. That is something the president has tried to cast doubt on.
You saw him referencing it there by talking about the ballots, and basically, you know, making this the threat on American democracy, the basis of it, voting. The president is saying, well, if you didn't have ballots, there wouldn't be a problem.
And so he seemed to be speaking, you know, cheekily as he was saying that. But it does matter. It is important when the president will not commit to something that simple and of course that vital to American democracy.
LEMON: Kaitlan, we heard from Mitt Romney yesterday that he would go along with the vote, right, for -- the president wanted Mitch McConnell. I understand that he is responding to the story that we're talking about now, this transition, this peaceful transition of power. What's he saying?
COLLINS: Yeah. This is so notable because, of course, we know the relationship between the president and Mitt Romney has been troubled at best. Yesterday, I was at the president's rally in Pittsburgh. He even referenced to what Romney said about supporting moving forward with the Supreme Court pick. The president is praising Mitt Romney, which is something you don't often hear. And tonight, after the president made that comment, Romney put out a statement. He said, fundamental to the democracy is the peaceful transition of power, and without that, there is Belarus. Of course, we have all seen what is happening there with the president. And he said any suggestion that a president might not respect the constitutional guarantee is both unthinkable and unacceptable.
So, of course, that is not likely a statement from Mitt Romney that is likely to win praise like his one about the Supreme Court did.
LEMON: All right. Kaitlan Collins, thank you very much. I appreciate your reporting.
I want to bring in now CNN Law Election Analyst, Rick Hasen and also Barton Gellman, staff writer at The Atlantic, with more on the president's refusal tonight to commit to a peaceful transfer of power if he loses the election.
Good evening, gentlemen. Rick, I'm going to start with you because you said that you have never been more worried about American democracy than you are right now. Did the president's comments today make that fear all the more real?
RICK HASEN, CNN ELECTION LAW ANALYST: Oh, they sure did. You know, I wrote the piece that was in Slate today making that point before the president had made these comments about peaceful transition of power.
But what we have had is not just Trump saying that if the election goes Biden's way, it's rigged, we have had the son saying there are going to be millions of fraudulent ballots, and we have the attorney general of the United States, William Barr, saying that.
I mean, put it all together and you combine it with all of the lawsuits where the Trump campaign and their allies are trying to stop ways of having people vote safely by mail during the pandemic, you know, it adds up to potentially both a legal strategy and a political strategy to try to game it out if it's a very close election come November 3rd.
[22:35:00]
LEMON: Barton, I read your very lengthy article in The Atlantic today. I started this morning and I finished this evening. But you write in The Atlantic that this election could break America. Listen, we hear president say, you know, things all the time, this president, false, about election fraud, about mail-in ballots and so on. But you think that this is all part of the bigger strategy. What does it look like?
BARTON GELLMAN, STAFF WRITER, THE ATLANTIC: It looks like this -- I did this piece in The Atlantic by starting with the proposition that President Trump is never going to concede defeat. He could win a legitimate electoral majority. But if he doesn't, he will not concede defeat.
And the system is surprisingly poorly designed to handle a president who won't concede. Concession is how we end elections. And Trump's plan is to halt the vote count with the day of votes, litigate the rest into oblivion. And what I learned from this article and describe in great detail is that he and his people are talking about contingency plans to bypass the vote of each state.
We think of electoral votes as just representing the results of the popular vote state by state. But the Constitution doesn't guarantee that. State legislators have the power to appoint electors directly. And legislators in six of battleground states are controlled by Republicans.
The trump campaign is talking about the possibility of asking those Republican legislators to disregard the popular vote because it has been rigged and to simply appoint Trump electors to represent the state.
LEMON: That is frightening. And listen, this is a reason that elections, especially presidential elections, are so important, because they get to appoint all of these judges and all of these people who are in charge of what you're saying, Barton. How frightening is that prospect for you?
GELLMAN: I would say I scared myself with this story. I have never broken the fourth wall in a news article and stopped reporting in the third person and going straight to talking to the reader. I do that in this piece because I think it's so disturbing, what I have discovered, and so dangerous to the continuity (ph) of our democracy.
LEMON: Yeah.
GELLMAN: You have a president who is unwilling to accept defeat, insists that he said today just out loud there won't be a transfer of power, there will be continuity of power.
Everyone has to prepare for an election that is not normal. It is not the way we have been accustomed to having elections. And everybody has to understand and Rick understands this better than anyone, there is no umpire in an election. There is no single official who can say to the loser you lost, and that's definitive and the game is over.
LEMON: Yeah.
GELLMAN: The system isn't built that way.
LEMON: Yeah. Rick, I want to bring you in because -- talk to me about your reporting because President Trump was talking about how the election could end up in the Supreme Court. Listen to this and then we will discuss.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: I think this will end up in the Supreme Court. And I think it's very important that we have nine justices. This scam that the Democrats are pulling, it's a scam. The scam will be before the United States Supreme Court. And I think having a 4-4 situation is not a good situation.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: It is unbelievable. If he doesn't win, it's a scam, no matter what. That is stunning, Rick. It sounds like he is admitting that he wants the court to hand him this election.
HASEN: Well, you know, I don't know how much he understands about the court and how much he understands about the process. I think, you know, just to take a step back, if the election is not close, I think Trump is going to leave office and all of this stuff is going to disappear and we're going to just wait until the next crisis, maybe in 2024 or 2028.
If it is very close, it could come down to the Supreme Court, it could come down to these Republican legislators doing something like trying to appoint electors directly. It could come down to a dispute in Congress between the Senate and the House over who Electoral College vote should be counted. All of it depends on the margin.
So, what I will say to the people right now is go out and vote. The most important thing to do is vote and demand transparency to the election officials so that we get a fair vote and we know who actually won the election.
The people have a role to play in this. Protests and being out there in public is an important thing that we may all have to do to keep our elections fair and clean.
LEMON: I would suggest that you read Rick's article in Slate and Barton's article in The Atlantic.
[22:40:00]
LEMON: But sit down while reading both of them. Thank you, gentlemen. I appreciate it.
GELLMAN: Thank you.
HASEN: Thank you.
LEMON: Coming up, we're going to speak with the attorney for the family of Breonna Taylor, Benjamin Crump, about how her family is doing tonight and what they'd like to see happen next. That as you see protests continue around the country.
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LEMON: A Kentucky grand jury charging one of three officers involved in Breonna Taylor's death with three counts of wanton endangerment. No officers were charged directly with her death.
Joining me now is Ben Crump. He is the attorney for Breonna Taylor's family. Ben, thank you so much. I know it has been a very busy day for you and I'm sure it is just a horrific day for the family. How is the family doing tonight? What is their reaction to the charges or lack thereof?
BEN CRUMP, ATTORNEY FOR BREONNA TAYLOR'S FAMILY: They are outraged and it's just heartbreaking.
[22:45:00]
CRUMP: It's like killing Breonna all over again. Legalized genocide of people of color because no matter how much evidence we have, they always find a way to try to legally justify. As like Dr. King said, just because it's legal doesn't make it right.
In this instance, this grand jury proceeding was outrageous. The D.A. can indict a ham sandwich if they wanted to. We strongly feel they did not want an indictment against these police officers.
LEMON: The Kentucky A.G. said the use of force by Sergeant Jon Mattingly and Detective Myles Cosgrove was justified because they were reacting to shots fired first by Breonna Taylor's boyfriend, Kenneth Walker. That is the law in Kentucky. They can't be charged because they were acting in self-defense. Is that what's going on?
CRUMP: Daniel Cameron needs to learn the self-defense law in Kentucky. The fact that Breonna never had a gun, even when you look in their report, the fact that she didn't shoot at anybody, the law of self- defense is very clear.
Innocent bystander, you can't use force against them in trying to justify self-defense. So, the whole reason they were there in the first place, the policy of no-knock warrant, the fact that they lied on the probable cause affidavit, warranted charges.
So, the family, the community, it is righteous anger tonight when you just come to the fact that this district attorney, this attorney general presented to the grand jury to get the result that he wanted, and the fact that wanton endangerment on the apartment that Breonna was not located in, the fact that you'll charge for bullets going into an apartment but not for bullets going into Breonna Taylor's body, is outrageous.
And on top of that, Don, the fact that the only wanton endangerment charges were for the bullets going into the white people's apartment but there were black people that a bullet went into, and they didn't charge on wanton endangerment there, it underscores the fact that there are two justice systems in America, one for black America and one for white America.
LEMON: Ben, I know you are traveling now, so I appreciate you doing this on the platform. If you can raise the camera a little bit because -- there you go. Thank you, sir.
The state of Kentucky was unable to determine who fired the fatal shot at Taylor. The FBI found that it was Detective Cosgrove. What do you think of this discrepancy? Do you think the FBI's findings could be based -- could be the basis for these charges?
CRUMP: I think the fact that from the beginning you have this no-knock warrant, that regardless if you try to say one person heard the police, well, Daniel Cameron, we have 12 additional neighbors there who say they didn't hear the police announce themselves. Kenneth Walker didn't hear the police announce themselves.
So, if you would have not had such a flagrant discriminatory policy in the first place, Breonna Taylor wouldn't have been killed.
The other problem is with policing. The fact that they were recklessly shooting outside the apartment into the apartment blindly and recklessly, that was the basis there for the second degree homicide, based on the recklessness of it from all the officers, how they executed this search warrant, the fact that they sent the ambulance away which was clearly a violation of policy.
And then the last thing is the prosecution. You have the Ps 4, 3 Ps (ph) in this situation. You have the policy, you have policing, and then you have the prosecution. And the prosecution and the policing, they go hand in hand. They are partners. It's like Ida B. Wells, the famous Negro journalist, you have the people who were the murderers, writing the reports to justify the murder.
And right now, we refuse to let them justify the murder of this black woman. Black women lives matter, too. And I know the FBI investigation is still ongoing. But this grand jury proceeding, this announcement was outrageous and insulting to the family of Breonna Taylor and is disrespectful -- continues to disrespect black women by American society and the court of laws.
[22:50:00]
LEMON: I have another question. Ben Crump, the attorney for Breonna's family is joining us now. Ben, do you have time for one more question? He is joining us. He is traveling.
CRUMP: I've got to go quick.
LEMON: You've got to go quick. OK, if you can answer it, fine. If not, you can go.
CRUMP: I've got to get to Breonna's family.
LEMON: OK. The Kentucky attorney general did not include the issue of the warrant in his investigation. Is that a big missing piece of this puzzle for you?
CRUMP: You know it is exactly what Daniel Cameron seemed to have wanted to do with this grand jury, find a reason not to hold these officers accountable.
LEMON: Mm-hmm.
CRUMP: When a prosecutor wants to indict someone, they indict them. When they don't want to indict someone, then they lead the grand jury to a place where they won't give an indictment. And clearly, Daniel Cameron and the attorney general's office wanted to exonerate these officers or try to justify the unjustifiable.
But we don't accept the justification. We stand here today to say that there is no justification for the murder of Breonna Taylor. And we will go to our graves proclaiming that Breonna Taylor did not get justice from the Kentucky attorney general's office.
LEMON: Benjamin Crump, thank you very much. Get your plane. I appreciate you joining us while you're traveling on this story. Thank you, Ben Crump.
CRUMP: Thank you.
LEMON: And that was Ben Crump speaking with me just moments before the show this evening.
But we're following the breaking news now. And you saw the pictures up on your screen, protests spreading in cities all across the country after a grand jury decides not to charge Louisville police officers in the killing of Breonna Taylor.
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LEMON: We are back now with our breaking news.
[22:55:00]
LEMON: Protesters taking to the streets. The country is demanding -- this country demanding justice for Breonna Taylor after a grand jury decision not to charge Louisville police officers with killing her.
Our Drew Griffin is here with the details for us. Drew, thank you so much. I appreciate you joining us. We got a lot of new information from the Kentucky A.G. about the Taylor case today. No officers charged relating directly to Breonna Taylor's death. There is still a lot that we don't know, though. You have reported about the missteps that led to Breonna Taylor's death, shoddy detective work and so on.
DREW GRIFFIN, CNN SENIOR INVESTIGATIVE CORRESPONDENT: Yeah, and you hit upon it in some of your other interviews. The real thing that was not prosecuted today was the actual actions of the police that got those three officers to the door of Breonna Taylor.
The search warrant, the investigation, the surveillance that was all done supposedly on her, we found, was very shoddy. The only thing connecting her to the drug ring that they were trying to break up on that night was a visit from one of the suspects to Breonna Taylor's apartment back in January, which he supposedly picked up a USPS package and went away. So the family has pointed to that as very shoddy work.
The five different no-knock search warrants, Don, they all contain almost identical language, identical language from invading a drug house to Breonna Taylor's apartment. That seemed like a lot of stuff to pack into -- into this kind of a warrant being served where police believed you had a single woman living in an apartment.
Why did they show up there with a battering ram and knock her door down in the first place? That is where the investigation seems to have let a lot of people down.
LEMON: And Drew will continue to investigate. Drew, I appreciate your reporting. Thanks so much.
Protests spreading across this country tonight in the wake of a grand jury's decision not to charge Louisville officers with killing Breonna Taylor.
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