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Don Lemon Tonight
Thirty-Four Days Until Election Day; Disastrous First Presidential Debate; Trump Failed To Condemn White Supremacy; Lindsey Graham Hanging On Thin Thread. Aired 10-11p ET
Aired September 30, 2020 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[22:00:00]
CHRIS CUOMO, CNN HOST: That is our wish for us during this time, for me. So it was a poem of my father, he wrote. May he rest in peace. The more we focus on love, and being together, and what matters to all of us, the better we'll be.
"CNN TONIGHT" with D. Lemon, starts right now.
DON LEMON, CNN HOST: Those are words to live by.
CUOMO: It is.
LEMON: They really are words to live by.
CUOMO: That's why he did. That's why he wrote them.
LEMON: So, you know, this is how we do. Me and you. So, I thought you comforted yourself well and with the Ted Cruz interview. So, I have a -- I have a little list here that I want to read off. OK, you ready?
CUOMO: Sure.
LEMON: OK, So, number 10, keep in mind. Boston. Number 9, Chicago. Number 8 is Washington. Number 7 is Honolulu. Number six is Las Vegas. Number five is San Francisco. Number four is Orlando. Three, Los Angeles. Two, Miami. One, New York. What am I doing? What is that?
CUOMO: Ranking casualties?
LEMON: Nope.
CUOMO: Ranking people from the pandemics?
LEMON: No, it this very simple answer to the -- to Ted Cruz's question. You did hit on it. But, just to bring it home because I don't know if people got it. Those are the list of the top 10 states.
CUOMO: Cities.
LEMON: Cities. Excuse me. Top 10 cities in this country for international travel.
CUOMO: Right. LEMON: Right. So, and New York outranks everyone.
CUOMO: Yes. That's why it got hit. It was a hub.
LEMON: But it got hit because --
(CROSSTALK)
CUOMO: New Jersey, Connecticut.
LEMON: -- you said it's a hub but people don't understand that.
CUOMO: He knows it.
LEMON: People fly -- I understand that. But I'm just trying to clarify. Because I was watching in the office and you guys were talking over each other. We have myriad airports that are international. That people fly in from China, from Europe, from all over the world. We are the number one city. And when they come into New York City, what do they do? They fan out into New York, New Jersey, Connecticut, and so on and so forth. Right?
And so, all of those people came here, that's how the virus got here. We know that. That's what the scientists say. It came in through the airport and someone brought it in from China. Actually, the one that the strain that hit America came in from Europe.
CUOMO: Right.
LEMON: You know what was not on that list? Austin --
CUOMO: Right.
LEMON: Houston.
CUOMO: Yes. The places that got hit hard there --
LEMON: Dallas.
CUOMO: -- because of a lackadaisical attitude towards the urgency.
LEMON: Well, they weren't on that list because how many international travelers fly into that city? Those cities? Not very many. They're not in the top 10 --
(CROSSTALK)
CUOMO: Early on.
LEMON: -- even in the top 20.
CUOMO: But they had the chance to learn the lesson.
LEMON: I agree with you. But I'm just explaining. It's a very simple answer. Completely simple. That's it.
CUOMO: I know.
LEMON: Because everyone wants to come to New York City from all over the world.
CUOMO: This is not -- look, you're right.
LEMON: Yes.
CUOMO: Obviously, my brother the governor there was explaining that on a regular basis. There were still problems. He had to make adjustment. He had to make corrections. His record will stand for itself.
LEMON: Right.
CUOMO: My point about Cruz is something happened to that guy because Donald Trump didn't change. He did. And he is symptomatic of something in that party. Clever as heck. Smart guy. Smart guy. Master debater. That's what he's known as.
But he can't beat what's obvious right in front of his face. Not even against a hack like me.
LEMON: Yes.
CUOMO: He won't call out this president in strong ways. He seems shaking his face. Well, I'm glad he walked it back today. No, he didn't. Well.
LEMON: Yes.
CUOMO: And then he says I'm being political. I'm not being political. I'm being practical. You have to call him out about that.
LEMON: Everything is political. That's also an excuse.
CUOMO: You only attack the Republicans about the pandemic. I politicize the pandemic?
LEMON: When people don't want to answer questions that's what they say. That's what --
(CROSSTALK)
CUOMO: But look, here's why did I have him on. One, I've been inviting him a long time.
LEMON: Because that's you. You like to do the testing. I -- and you know we've talked about this.
CUOMO: Yes.
LEMON: I just -- I don't like to waste my time. I like the viewer --
(CROSSTALK)
CUOMO: I don't think it's a waste of time in this country right now, pal.
LEMON: I think it's -- well, I mean, for me.
CUOMO: This country is at odds --
LEMON: I'll let you --
CUOMO: -- with one another.
LEMON: I'll let you do that. But for me, I feel it's a waste of time.
CUOMO: yes. Look, we all have our different ways to achieve the same ends. What I'm saying is, you want people to have information. See how power is responding to things that would be able to count. Why do I interrupt? Because I learned in this business when I got into cable, too many of us let people flood the zone in cable. They say two, three, four absurd things and then you say I'll let you speak. Now you don't have time. You're not going to check all four.
LEMON: Yes.
CUOMO: You are going to check maybe two which means two go through for free. Not on my watch.
LEMON: The best way to do it is I don't have to do it.
CUOMO: I know.
LEMON: Because I just don't.
CUOMO: I must.
LEMON: I know it's in you. All right. Thank you. I hope you got some sleep because I got very little.
CUOMO: I love you, Don Lemon.
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: First of all, I --
CUOMO: I had your words reverberate in my head all night long.
LEMON: We were here until 3 a.m. And we'll do it as long as we have to. Thank you, brother. I love you, too. I'll see you soon.
CUOMO: All right.
[22:05:00]
LEMON: This is CNN TONIGHT. I'm Don Lemon.
We have a very busy night here. It was a very busy news, very busy 24 hours for news, and now to 34. This is our breaking news. Thirty-four days until election day. And in the wake of last night's disastrous debate -- wasn't that debate something? Wasn't that even -- what was that? I felt like I was watching an episode of the -- I don't know. Househusbands of D.C. or something. And it was just crazy.
The president sounds like he is making stuff up again. Not sounds like, he is, falsely telling a packed crowd at a rally in Duluth that Joe Biden is cancelling the next debates. But the Biden campaign says he will be there.
Every time I see these crowds at his rallies, I think -- it's almost as if we're not in the middle of a deadly pandemic, one that killed more than 206,000 Americans. A source telling CNN it may take just a few days for the president to realize that he was way too aggressive in that debate. Came in hot.
A source telling CNN that it's like when he suggested ingesting bleach and didn't understand it. Just how bad it was at first, the same thing. He didn't understand how bad that was and he doesn't understand -- he doesn't understand how bad this is. It was bad.
So, what he said last night when he was asked directly to condemn the Proud Boys hate group and instead told them to stand back and standby. Here's what a longtime adviser said -- says he was furious. Or that adviser was furious telling CNN and I'm quoting here, "f the Proud Boys." There I said it. Not that hard. That's the quote. I'm not saying that part. The adviser said it.
For President Trump it was very hard to do that. So hard that today when the president got a second swing at what should be the easiest damn question for any American to answer. Let alone the man who holds the highest office in the land, he just couldn't do it. Everyone says that was a lay-up. And he just tossed it into the crowd. Instead he is relying on an old favorite defense. I don't know who they are.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: I don't know who the Proud Boys are. I mean you have to give me a definition because I really don't know who they are. I can only say they have to stand down. Let law enforcement do their work.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: He never knows who anyone is when he doesn't -- that person was a coffee boy, had very little affiliation with my campaign even when they worked for years. I don't really know that person. He always does that. Did you ever notice that? Go back and check the record.
And I want you to compare that now to a very straightforward message from Joe Biden today.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOE BIDEN (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: My message to the Proud Boys and every other white supremacist group is cease and desist. That's not who we are. This is not who we are as Americans.
(END VIDEO CLIP) LEMON: I don't think that could have been clearer. Unlike the
president I don't know who they are defense, which again you have heard before. Let's remember this is the man who danced around the question of whether he disavowed David Duke the former leader of the Ku Klux Klan.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: Well, just so you understand I don't know anything about David Duke. OK? I don't know anything about what you're even talking about with white supremacy or white supremacist. So, I don't know. I mean, I don't know did he endorse me or what's going on. Because, you know, I know nothing about David Duke. I know nothing about white supremacists. And so, you're asking a question that I'm supposed to be talking about people that I know nothing about.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: The interview with Matt Lauer in NBC where he talked about decades before where he talked about David Duke. Now there are people particularly on state TV who have been blowing smoke about all this. Trying to convince you that president -- the president didn't say what he said during the debate last night. OK? Listen closely.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHRIS WALLACE, ANCHOR, FOX NEWS: Are you willing to tonight to condemn white supremacists and militia groups --
TRUMP: Sure.
WALLACE: -- and to say that they need to stand down and not add to the violence and a number of cities as we saw in Kenosha and as we've seen in Portland.
TRUMP: Sure, I'm willing to do that.
(CROSSTALK)
WALLACE: Are you prepared specifically -- well, go ahead, sir. Do it.
TRUMP: But I would say -- I would say almost everything I see is from the left wing. Not from the right wing.
WALLACE: So, what are you -- what are you saying --
(CROSSTALK)
TRUMP: But you look, I'm willing to do anything. I want to see peace.
WALLACE: Well, then do it, sir.
BIDEN: Say it. Do it. Say it.
TRUMP: You want to call them -- what do you want to call them? Give me a name. Give me a name. WALLACE: White supremacist and white --
(CROSSTALK)
TRUMP: Go ahead. Who would like me to condemn?
WALLACE: Proud Boys.
BIDEN: White supremacist and --
TRUMP: Proud Boys, stand back and standby. But I'll tell you what, I'll tell you what, somebody has to do something about antifa and the left.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[22:09:58]
LEMON: OK. So asked directly to condemn white supremacists. The president says he is willing to. But immediately pivots to blaming left wing groups for violence.
Now they're talking over each other at times there. So, here's what I did for you. I just want you -- this is the transcript of that last part. OK? Trump, you want to call them -- what do you want to call them? Give me a name. Give me a name. And then Wallace says white supremacists and white. Biden says white supremacist. And then Trump says who would you like me to condemn. Biden, Proud Boys.
Trump, Proud Boys stand back and standby. But I tell you what, I tell you what, somebody has got to do something about antifa and the left.
So, he picks up on Proud Boys right away. He doesn't ask who they are. I've never heard of them. He gives them an order. Proud Boys, stand back and standby. And then Chris Wallace telling the New York Times tonight, what was clear to me what he was given a direct opportunity several times by both me and by the vice president to call out the Proud Boys and white supremacists and he refused to do so. Chris Wallace. That was the L.A. Times. OK.
So, this president says he doesn't know who the Proud Boys are. Before you decide whether to believe our serial liar of a president, let's take a look at some facts for you. OK?
CNN's Jeremy Diamond tweeted this photograph of a dozen Proud Boys at a Trump rally in Colorado Springs. That was February. Here's a photograph now of Trump's long-time dirty trickster Roger Stone. You remember the president commuted his prison sentence back in July for lying to Congress.
Here he is with Proud Boys at a rally on the National Mall in September of 2018. He's posing in countless photographs with the group. And there's more. Here's what we reported about them back in October of 2018.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) Here's Fox News anchor Tucker Carlson posing with two Proud Boys and Roger Stone. Sean Hannity says he has never heard of the Proud Boys. But according to media matters the group's founder, Gavin McInnes, has been on the show 24 times.
SEAN HANNITY, HOST, FOX NEWS: Joining me now tonight's Great American panel, author, troublemaker, Gavin McInnes, Gavin McInnes, Gavin McInnes, Gavin McInnes back in the house.
Gavin, you want to start anymore trouble?
(END VIDEOTAPE)
LEMON: So, maybe President Trump missed, you know, all two dozen of those Hannity shows. Right? Because he doesn't watch Hannity. Doesn't know the Proud Boys come to his rallies this year, that they wear his hats. Never talks to his personal dirty trickster who he pardoned. Never talks about his favorite crew.
Come on. He knew who the Proud Boys were last night and he knows who they are today. All this is part of the pattern for Donald Trump. Say something he actually means, get pushed into a corner and forced to walk it back against his will.
Then when nobody buys his convenient denial, he gets mad and he doubles down and what he said in the first place. Remember what this president said about deadly white supremacist violence in Charlottesville on the day Heather Heyer, a peaceful protester was run over and killed by man who has since been convicted of first-degree murder.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: We condemn in the strongest possible terms this egregious display of hatred, bigotry and violence on many sides, on many sides.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: The president was immediately condemned for that violence on many sides comment, which forced him to deliver a statement at the White House two days later, calling out racist groups.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: Racism is evil. And those who cause violence and in its name are criminals and thugs. Including the KKK, neo Nazis, white supremacists, and other hate groups that are repugnant to everything we hold dear as Americans.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: That only lasted one day until we held a press conference at Trump tower and walked back his walk back.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: the neo Nazis started this. They showed up in Charlottesville.
(CROSSTALK)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Who killed a person, Heather Heyer --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They showed up in Charlottesville.
TRUMP: Excuse me.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The protests --
TRUMP: They didn't put themselves down as the other group. And you had some very bad people in that group. But you also had people that were very fine people on both sides. You had people in that group, excuse me. Excuse me. I saw the same pictures as you did.
[22:15:02]
You had people in that group there to protest the taking down, to them, a very, very important statue and then renaming of a park from Robert E. Lee to another name.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: This president has told us who he is, over and over. Should we believe him? We should believe him. But he doesn't get the last word. Not in the United States of America. You get the last word. And that word is your vote. You can vote by mail. You can vote early. You can go to the polls on November 3rd. But vote.
Jim Acosta, CNN's own at that rally the president tonight. Jim, good evening to you. What's he saying?
We'll talk after the break.
JIM ACOSTA, CNN CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: I just want to say low energy --
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: Jim, we'll talk after the break.
ACOSTA: OK, Don.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: So now I want to get back to CNN's Jim Acosta at the Trump rally there in Duluth. And the president seems to think that he did a great job last at night's debate. At least that's what he told this packed crowd tonight in Minnesota.
[22:20:03]
Jim, what'd you hear?
ACOSTA: Yes, Don. I mean, this was sort of a low energy victory lap for President Trump. He was declaring victory after last night's debate with Joe Biden. But keep in mind, this was one of the smallest crowds that I've seen in sometime at a Trump rally during the pandemic. And it was one of his shortest speeches. About 45 minutes. Not one of this hour, hour and a half long speeches that we have seen in recent weeks.
The other thing we should point out, Don, you were just talking there at great length about the president's failure to condemn white supremacy and the Proud Boys at last night's presidential debate. Keep in mind, tonight, the president was using more racially loaded rhetoric to try to whip up this crowd in Duluth, Minnesota.
At one point, he accused Joe Biden of trying to flood the state with refugees, he was going off on Minnesota Congresswoman Ilhan Omar. Essentially asking the audience at one point where does she get off telling us how to run our country, used those words our country. And so it was a different night for the president, Don, but it was the same race-baiting playbook.
LEMON: Doubling down, Jim. I understand that you have some reporting about the Trump campaign and White House. The sources are telling you about the president's Proud Boys message. What are they saying?
ACOSTA: Yes. You know, the president can claim that he had a good debate last night and he's been telling that to people behind the scenes. But I can tell you from talking to a couple of Trump campaign advisers, they just don't feel like that's the case. At least not, it's not a unanimous feeling inside the Trump campaign that things went well for the president last night.
I talked to one Trump adviser and he mentioned the same thing that you were talking about a little while ago in reference to that moment about the Proud Boys and the words of this Trump adviser of the Proud Boys. See, I did it, it's not that hard.
You know, I think what this Trump adviser is trying to say is that the president missed what was basically a teed-up moment. That he could have essentially put a lot of these questions to rest that have been plaguing him for years now. That he is just soft when it comes to white supremacists and he completely whiffed at that moment.
And this Trump adviser was really rather furious about it. I talked to another source that is close to this president who talks to him regularly who described it as a great night but for Joe Biden. And that the president was way too aggressive during last night's debate and may play well with his base, may play well with people like this rally tonight.
But it's not going to work with those independent, middle of the road voters that Donald Trump needs to win back to try to win this race and try to win states like Minnesota.
I mean, I have to tell you, Don, we've been to a lot of Trump campaign rallies over these several years. They are usually fiery. They are usually packed with people. They could barely fill this venue here tonight. It was stunning. It was almost as if some of his supporters saw what happened last night and just decided to stay home.
LEMON: Yes, well, and also, you know, Minnesota has a mask mandate. And their -- you know, this White House is urging states to without them to get on board.
So, Jim Acosta, thank you very much. We appreciate it. We'll see you soon.
ACOSTA: You got it.
LEMON: So why is -- why is it that this president couldn't answer the easiest question in last night's debate. Why couldn't he condemn white supremacy? I guarantee you that Anthony Scaramucci has an opinion about that, and he's here, and he's next.
[22:25:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: So, the president refusing once again today to condemn the Proud Boys. That after he told them to stand back and standby at last night's debate. But, is he losing supporters over all of this?
That's the question to ask to Anthony Scaramucci, the former White House communication director. Anthony, good to see you. I hope you were listening. Because we heard from Jim Acosta what he said about the rally in Duluth. Low energy, smaller crowd. Almost as if some supporters saw the debate and decided not to come out.
Is it possible that he is disillusioning his supporters with the debate performance like that?
ANTHONY SCARAMUCCI, FORMER WHITE HOUSE COMMUNICATIONS DIRECTOR: I do you believe that. I think that when you have a debate performance like that it's not what you say, but it's how you're making people feel. And he made most people feel terrible. And if you look at your flash polling at CNN or other polls today, people thought that he lost that debate soundly. And a lot of the seniors felt more safe with vice president.
So, yes, I definitely think that. But listen, you're asking the question of the night and the question of the last four years. Why is it that he cannot disavow white supremacy?
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: That was my -- why can't he explicitly just not denounce it -- denounce it?
(CROSSTALK)
SCARAMUCCI: So, let me give you the answer. OK? Let me give you the answer because we always dance around it because he is one. That's the answer.
LEMON: A white supremacist? SCARAMUCCI: So, when you are one -- I'm sorry?
LEMON: A white supremacist.
SCARAMUCCI: He is. Of course, he is. Think of his actions. Think of the way he handles himself. Think of the people that he brings along with him in the crowd. Think of the way he ferments things. Now he likes to split the participle and he likes to operate on both sides of the table and give just enough to each side, so that he can do it in a little bit of a deceptive way.
But that's what he is. And so, rather than dancing around it, let's just hit it right exactly what it is. His aides that are saying of the Proud Boys, they know it too. And so why don't we just talk about it openly and then let's challenge it and let's see where he goes with it, Don.
LEMON: I wonder -- I'm wondering about the conversation that we're having because you were the White House communications director. What conversations do you think the White House team had with President Trump about the fiasco last night and over his message to the Proud Boys?
[22:29:57]
And let me just read this before you answer. This is from our Dana Bash. It says, a source familiar with the president's debate prep tells me that they want him to be aggressive but not act like Jason from Friday the 13th.
So? What kind of conversations do you think they're having with him?
(CROSSTALK)
SCARAMUCCI: I'm sorry. I thought you were playing -- I thought you were playing a sound bite.
LEMON: No, no, no.
SCARAMUCCI: Here's what I would tell you. Universally, they told him he did a great A couple of his family members are trying to get up the gumption to tell him, you know, that was a terrible job. But there is nobody in the White House to tell him the truth.
And so, if he had real good aides on the way back on Air Force One they would have said, listen, you got to walk back the white supremacy stuff. I mean, that was a disaster. People don't like white supremacist. And you don't have enough white supremacists to win the election.
So, to me, no one did that, Don. And no one is going to do that. And they tell him that he did great and you pulverize him and that's the way you should act and you be that amped up and so forth.
But even Chris Christie, Rick Santorum who said he came in too hot. But his aides, there is no way anybody told him that. And I did a little bit of digging today. And I found out there was just one family member that wanted to tell him the truth but said you what, why am I the only family member telling the truth here. Let me -- let me stand down as well.
LEMON: Interesting. So, then, I think I know the answer to this, but I'll ask anyway. Do you buy anyone who says President Trump misspoke when he said stand back and standby? Or when President Trump says he doesn't know who the Proud Boys are. We have seen these excuses before.
SCARAMUCCI: OK. So, he definitely knows who the Proud Boys are. And he did misspeak but not in the way they're trying to defend him. He was searching for the words to split that participle, to give something to everybody. He was trying to wink at the Proud Boys but he was trying to give enough to his supporters to say that he's not a white supremacist and he was doing it quickly in his mind. And that's why it was, you know, stand down and standby.
And that literally -- if you think about it from a military perspective when you are standing by, you're waiting for your orders from your commander-in-chief. And so that is a Freudian tell, Don. We have to accept it for what it is. We have to stop tiptoeing around it. And I think if we do that, we can push him out of the White House.
LEMON: This is Michael Cohen on with Erin Burnett earlier.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MICHAEL COHEN, FORMER DONALD TRUMP'S LAWYER: There's really no answer for it other than the fact that he is just an Archie Bunker racist.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: So, this is the theme. I mean, because his niece, Mary, has talked about her uncle using racial slurs. We've seen it all for ourselves. All the things that he says. Is this about sympathizing with these groups, not wanting to turn away any supporters or both? What is it? You know, he's trying to split the baby?
SCARAMUCCI: Yes. It's a combination of things. He wants to give enough to a few people on other networks to say that he's not racist. But he wants to let the racists know hey, wink-wink, you know, I'm a racist just like you. You and I both know if the racists think you're a racist, you are in fact a racist.
But there's something else going on. And you got to -- you got to listen to Michael Cohen. There's eugenics going on as well. You know, he's in Minnesota a few weeks ago telling people you got great genes and that's why you are surviving COVID-19. You know, he does think like that.
His uncle was a professor at MIT. You know, he had a smart brain and I inherited the smart brain. You got to understand what it's about. And the problem is it's so abnormal. And he's sitting in the institution of the presidency the successor of Abraham Lincoln and Dwight Eisenhower and Franklin Roosevelt, that we just have a hard time recognizing how unwell the president actually is.
And I think over the next five weeks, we have to explain to the American people literally how unwell he is, how racist he is, and how he is not fit for 2020 in the United States. We can do better than this. And Joe Biden is a better solution for America.
LEMON: You heard the president's former communication director says he is a white supremacist. Anthony Scaramucci, thank you.
SCARAMUCCI: There is no question.
LEMON: Thank you.
SCARAMUCCI: You know what it meant.
LEMON: Yes. So, could Lindsey Graham lose his seat in the Senate? New polls show that that is a real possibility. And remarkably, they show a close race for President Trump too in South Carolina. I'm going to speak with his challenger Jaime Harrison, next.
[22:35:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: Republicans urging President Trump to condemn white supremacy but so far, they're not getting anywhere. So here is South Carolina Senator Tim Scott, the only black Republican in the Senate.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. TIM SCOTT (R-SC): I think he misspoke in response to Chris Wallace's comment that he is asking Chris what he wanted to say. I think he misspoke. I think he should correct it. Because if he doesn't correct it, I guess he didn't misspeak.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: OK. So, Senator Scott joined by fellow South Carolina Lindsey Graham who tweeted, the president needs to make it clear Proud Boys is a racist organization antithetical to American ideals.
Joining me now the Democratic candidate for the U.S. Senate in South Carolina, Jaime Harrison. Jaime, good to see you. How are you doing?
JAIME HARRISON (D), SOUTH CAROLINA SENATE CANDIDATE: Good evening, Don. I'm good. How are you?
LEMON: You saw that hot mess last night, I'm sure. Right? I'm doing OK, by the way.
HARRISON: You know, I got to debate on Saturday so I'm just focused on that right now.
LEMON: So, a whole, Jaime, a whole lot of Republican senators including your opponent came out today to try to make sure everyone knew they agreed with Tim Scott, the Senate's only black Republican. Do they recognize how bad this president screwed up even if the president doesn't understand it?
HARRISON: Well, Don, you know, this is what I believe. I think all of our elected officials, Democrats and Republicans, independent, men from Mars and women from Venus. They got to be crystal clear on this.
[22:40:02]
We have to be unequivocal on this, that there is no room, no room for this type of language right now. You know, hatred and white supremacy have no place. They have no place in South Carolina. They have no place in this country. And so, you got to push back and you have to do it strongly against ideas from groups like the Proud Boys that they are putting up. And out right now.
And so, it's important that Democrats and Republicans stand up on this. And there's no equivocation on it. You can't quiver about it. You just got to be straightforward and honest about it.
LEMON: I want to talk about your race. You're in dead heat with Lindsey Graham. A new Quinnipiac poll puts you both at 48 percent. Look at that. In a CBS News polls has you just one point behind. What is happening down there in South Carolina to make this race so competitive?
HARRISON: Well, Don, the winds of change are blowing and even blowing down south here in South Carolina. Now I told folks this. You know, when I got into this race, I wouldn't have gotten in had we not thought that we had a shot at winning this race. And it's because the people here are hungry for change. They are hungry for the real representation.
Lindsey Graham has become all D.C. His focus is on D.C. and he has forgotten the people here in South Carolina that he supposedly represents. He doesn't address the issues that are fundamental here. You know, Don, we're in the midst of this pandemic. We have had 3,000 people to die here in South Carolina over the course of the few months. We have 100,000 plus folks with the COVID.
And Lindsey Graham was the one that said over our dead bodies we will allow an extension on the unemployment benefits. He is the one who is trying to rip away healthcare. Right now, he supports that lawsuit in the Supreme Court that's going to be heard on November 10, to take away healthcare for millions of people in this country.
And our businesses are shuttering. We need somebody who is going to focus on us. Now what is Lindsey rushing to do? He wasn't rushing in August to get a bill to extend benefits to folks because of COVID because he took vacation. He is not rushing now. But he is rushing to get a Supreme Court justice on the Supreme Court when he said in his own words, he said hold the tape. And we held the tape. And we're going to play that tape over and over again.
But he said in his own words, that we should not be considering a nominee right now in an election when people are voting.
LEMON: Well, OK. You said that he is rushing to do that. He's also rushing for TV interviews, going on TV interviews because your campaign has seen a surge of donations. And so, he has been on the interviews begging for cash. This is Fox News. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GRAHAM: I'm being outraised two to one. Every Republican who run in the Senate is being hit hard.
I'm being killed financially. This money is because they hate my guts. I stood in the way of Kavanaugh. I stood up for Kavanaugh at a time when they want to destroy his life. And I dare to help president, the unpardonable sin of a Republican. So, the wrath of the left is coming down on me. But it's all of us, all of us are getting outraised.
I am getting overwhelmed.
HANNITY: I got to run. Go ahead.
GRAHAM: Lindseygraham.com. Help me. They're killing me money wise. Help me. You did last week. Help me again.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: Wow. Everybody is out to get him. What are you doing with all that money?
HARRISON: Well, you know, Don, I should say, go to Jaimeharrison.com. Help me, help me. No, but honestly, my mom called me the other day. My mom sounds a lot like your mom, Don. And she said -- she said sternly, she said, Jaime, I thought I taught you better than that. And I said mama, what are you talking about? She said why do you have Lindsey Graham on Fox News crying?
It was the funniest thing. But in the end, there is a movement that is being built here in South Carolina. People are fed up. Lindsey Graham epitomizes why people hate politics, why they don't trust politicians. Because he says one thing and he does another. And folks want somebody who is going to be a man or woman of their word. And I'm going to be man of my word because that's how I was taught to be. But Lindsey Graham his word doesn't mean much.
LEMON: Yes.
HARRISON: Mean much. Sorry.
LEMON: Well, listen, thank you so much. I hope that in on election night I'm your first interview. No matter which way it goes. So, thank you, sir. I appreciate it. Best of luck to you.
HARRISON: Thank you, Don. Take care.
LEMON: And say hello to your mother. Thank you.
Disaster, terrible, dumpster fire, that's what people are saying about last night's debate. The people in charge are trying to make sure that it doesn't happen again. So, they're changing the rules. [22:45:00]
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LEMON: The president insisting to friends and allies he did well in last night's debate, but a source tells CNN it may take a few days for the president to realize that he was way too aggressive.
Joining me now to discuss is Susan Glasser, the CNN global affairs analyst and staff writer for the New Yorker, and Peter Baker, chief White House correspondent for the New York Times. And they are the authors of the new book, "The Man Who Ran Washington: The Life and Times of James A. Baker III."
Thank you so much. I appreciate both of you joining us and together. And good luck on the book.
Let's talk about the president, OK? This is our reporting tonight. Is that the president thinks that he did a good job, Peter, last night? But that it might sink in that he didn't. Do you think that he -- he is going to realize that and does he have any advisers who can tell him that, that -- to his face?
[22:49:57]
PETER BAKER, WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT, THE NEW YORK TIMES: It's one of these things I think he has to realize on his own. People can tell him that kind of thing, but until he sees it himself in some way or another, he tends to reject that kind of conclusion.
He thinks that he was appropriately aggressive, he got into Joe Biden's space. Remember, in effect, he was doing last night what he did with Hillary Clinton physically four years ago, he was doing last night verbally trying to, you know, intimidate or intrude on Biden's, you know, space and keep him off balance.
I think he thinks that worked out well. It may be a while until he sees otherwise, especially once the polls come in that they should -- you know, that they consistently show what the early polls have shown that Biden didn't do badly at all, and, in fact, didn't help his chance form the race.
Remember, the president has 30-some days left. He's got to do something to change the dynamics, otherwise, at this point, it looks like he's losing.
LEMON: Susan, I was just saying in the break to the producers, can you believe that someone's behavior was so ugly and so badly that the debate commission, the Commission on Presidential Debates is saying, hey, we're thinking of changing the rules for future debates. But I mean, is that going to work with Trump? Because he just -- he doesn't follow the rules, Susan.
SUSAN GLASSER, CNN GLOBAL AFFAIRS ANALYST: He doesn't follow the rules. I think that was one of the sort of, running commentary that Biden almost had. I found interesting last night that, you know, one of Biden's coping techniques for this onslaught by the president was to become almost the narrator of the situation, right?
You know, Chris Wallace is desperately trying to regain some semblance of control and, you know, he's saying, sir, Mr. President, you agreed to this. And Biden saying, yes, he never follows the rules. You know, it was a crazy situation.
And, look, Don, you know, does anyone think that if the commission changes the rules that Trump is going to abide by them? Or, frankly, I really feel sorry for the two next people who have the job that Chris Wallace had last night.
I mean, you know, this is really a terrible situation to put anybody in. And you have the President of the United States going rogue essentially. So, I don't think it's a matter of rules. What was amazing about last night was that he did it on purpose.
LEMON: Well, speaking, you know, in that vein, Peter, we have heard many people who have worked closely with this president say that's exactly what he is like every single day, talking over people, demeaning them, listening to no one. Does it explain why so many people are leaving and choosing to speak out against him?
BAKER: Yes, I think one of the really most remarkable things we've seen this campaign season is that his worst critics, his toughest critics are a lot of the people who worked for him or might even be in his own family. We've never seen a campaign like this where an incumbent president had so many people who worked for his campaign, for his White House, for his administration, where literally being sued by his own family in the midst of a campaign season like this.
And I think one of the things that the White House has been worried about is a continual drip, drip, drip of more people coming out. It may be that no individual person has great sway with the voters, but, you know, each time another one comes out and says this is what happened to us, this is what I saw, what we've seen in recent days, it keeps them off balance, it makes them on the defensive and it makes them have to answer for the president rather than being on offense, which is what we saw last night where the president would prefer to be.
LEMON: And people are wondering, I think many Republicans as well, why is he swimming in the racist Proud Boys white supremacist waters?
Susan, let's talk about the news that you made in your new book. You report that James Baker calls the president 'crazy and nuts,' but says that he will support him. Trump is the antithesis of everything Baker stood for. So why? What's his reasoning for this?
GLASSER: Well, look, I think it tells you a lot about where the modern Republican Party is and how it got there. For five years, Peter and I have been working on this book and watching Secretary Baker's visible discomfort and angst about this. We've been talking with him as he has wrestled with what to do with a hostile takeover of his party, a party that he believes that, you know, was the pillar of his career that he helped to build. Trump disagrees with him, not only because his character is so
different, but also just on a matter of principle, free trade, climate change. Baker is actually, you know, working towards a carbon tax. You know, he thinks some of the management, the incompetence at the White House that we've seen, and yet he's not been able to renounce him.
You know, anyone looking to understand the behavior of those senators up there on Capitol Hill, look at them today all, you know, sort of squirming and uncomfortable. Once again, they say, well, both sides were bad. You know, I'm deeply troubled by this. But they can't say, look, Donald Trump doesn't represent me or my party. And I think that's what we saw with Secretary Baker.
But, you know, there's 35 days left until the election. He hasn't voted for him again yet, so we'll see what happens. He did at one point tell us he was considering voting for Joe Biden and then he said a couple months later, well, but I'm not sure.
[22:55:04]
And look, he's 90 years old. He had his time running Washington, and a pretty solid record of accomplishment when he did.
LEMON: And, Peter, you know, he took the lead in Bush versus Gore, right, in that contested election and won. So, he did what it took to win, but he was also someone who valued compromise. Is that era in Washington, D.C. gone? Because Biden thinks that he can bring it back somehow.
BAKER: Yes, it's a great question. I think that's one of the things that I would appeal to Baker about Biden. They don't share an ideology, but they do share sort of a generational belief in the institutions in Washington, the idea that parties can sit down and work things out even if they don't get everything that they want.
Baker sat down with the Democrats after the elections to forge deals on social security, on the tax code, get rid of the Contra war. He basically believed that winning an election wasn't enough. The point of winning an election was to get into office and do something about it. And often what you see today is the exact opposite.
LEMON: Yes, I like the coordinated look, guys. Thanks so much for joining us. I'll see you soon. Listen, best of luck with the book. The book again is "The Man Who Ran Washington: The Life and Times of James A. Baker III." Again, Peter and Susan, our thanks.
We'll be right back.
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