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Don Lemon Tonight
President Trump Tests Positive for the Coronavirus. Aired 2-3a ET
Aired October 02, 2020 - 02:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[02:00:00]
DON LEMON, CNN HOST: You see Mark Meadows, you see the vice president, and you see Amy Coney Barrett, right? So she's there. The hearing is supposed to start. Are they going to have to be postponed now? Is she going to have to quarantine because the vice president admittedly on camera saying that he met -- he was in Oval Office, he met with the president on Tuesday?
SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Yeah. I mean, so, this is concerning. This is very concerning, obviously, and there's going to need to be significant contact tracing, a word that we don't talk about nearly enough because it's impossible really in this country to contact trace 40,000 people a day.
But here you have a situation and Kaitlan is putting up this photograph where this is the kind of thing that people are going to look at and say what were the various contacts now between people.
Strictly speaking, we are really talking about the idea of quarantining people who come in contact with someone with known COVID. Now, Vice President Pence was in the Oval Office but does not have known COVID. She may technically not need to be quarantined. I am talking about Amy Coney Barrett now.
But this is going to be tangled web. It's going to be challenging. This is why you don't want to be doing these sorts of meetings indoors, close contact in the middle of a pandemic. I mean, nobody likes the situation we are in right now but that's one of things that people had to have been cautious about.
So, it's going to be -- the vice president gets tested on a daily basis, as well. That's gonna be something that they need to monitor very, carefully.
But there are there are specifics here. Again, it is an exact science. What is a contact? That is going to be really important. How close were you? Did you shake hands? Did you give a hug, even a quick one? Were people wearing masks around? How long was the contact? Was it over 10 or 15 minutes? That is going to count to the close contact.
Was it indoors? We can see that it was indoors. They may even go back now and look at these buildings. What was the ventilation like in there? Was it poorly ventilated? Was the virus likely to aerosolize into that space? What about the spaces now, including the West Wing of the Oval Office? What sorts of decontamination procedures have been ongoing? What are going to be ongoing now, because of what we have just seen? So -- and in the other buildings like the picture that Kaitlan is showing, those types of buildings. How are they going to be, you know, disinfected?
So, all of that, I am sure, are parts of the discussion. One thing I have to say is I hope that there is full transparency around this. Full transparency not only in terms of who likely was exposed, but also on the symptoms that the president, the first lady, others may or may not be having because that is going to be really, really critically important.
I will say again, Don, it is unsettling. But still the odds are very much that the president will recover from this, will be OK from this. He is far more likely than someone who is much younger to become sick. He is far more likely, because of his pre-existing conditions of obesity and heart disease, but still much greater than 90 percent chance of having a recovery from this.
LEMON: Yeah. We certainly hope he does recover. Sanjay, stand by. Let us bring back in -- Sanjay is going to stay with us. We will bring back in Brian Stelter and Carl Bernstein. Brian, do you believe, because we waited for so long, right, to hear --
BRIAN STELTER, CNN CHIEF MEDIA CORRESPONDENT: Yeah.
LEMON: -- about the test. Did they sit on this? What happened?
STELTER: Yeah. Let's be honest, Don. You were on the air at midnight, 12:30 a.m., there was certainly a reasonable suspicion that the president had tested positive, and that the reason the White House didn't announce the results right away is because they knew he was testing positive and they were providing notifications to people like Mitch McConnell and other leaders of the government.
I think that's a fair assumption to make at this late hour. We know the White House has these 15-minute rapid tests and it was concerning by 11:00 p.m. and midnight that we did not have any answer from the White House.
And I guess to Sanjay's point about the need for transparency, White House aides who feel pressured to lie on behalf of the president, they should feel more pressure now from all of us in the public to tell the public the truth in the coming days and weeks.
You know, Boris Johnson, other world leaders have been sick with COVID. Boris Johnson was in his 50s. He ended up in the ICU. He said -- quote -- "It could have gone either way." I think the point there is that we shouldn't assume the best or the worst. We don't know. As Sanjay said, the odds are in the president's favor, but there are other world leaders who have suffered mightily as a result of this disease.
One more note, Don, we have been talking about the DOW Futures. The markets are now down more than 500 points. The S&P, the NASDAQ are down two percent. Just to give context of how the world is reacting to this, world markets are paying close attention to this concerning news.
LEMON: Mm-hmm. Listen, Carl, the president says, according to the doctor -- actually in his tweet. He said, they are doing fine, we will get through this. The doctor said that they were doing fine and that they had the best people around the world. He wants to thank them. They will maintain a vigilant watch. And also, the first lady is saying, we are doing great.
[02:04:59]
LEMON: So at this point, it appears, from them, that they are doing well. We hope they continue to. But we know things can take a turn with COVID. Hope it doesn't. But we just don't know at this point. Again, I keep saying, and this is the god's honest truth, so many unknowns at this moment. We are in brand new territory here, Carl.
CARL BERNSTEIN, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST, JOURNALIST AND AUTHOR: It's not just a question of brand new territory. There is also some old territory that we are somewhat hostage to and that is the lack of transparency and lying by the president and this White House.
And it's very significant, perhaps, that the White House's physician, in his report, did not say anything about whether or not the president is experiencing or has experienced symptoms. And others in the White House are telling the reporters that they, too, have not learned anything about whether or not the president is experiencing or has experienced symptoms.
And we have to go back and look at the fact that this president has tried to hide his medical condition from us. He's had that secret visit to Walter Reed Hospital. We still don't know what it was really about.
One of the things that might result from this is there might be some pressure from others on Capitol Hill, including some Republicans, to finally insist that there be some transparency for the good of the nation as we go through this period over the coming days, because a lack of honest information as we go forward can be as crippling to the country as the virus itself can be to an individual.
We really need at this point both the press to do its job vigorously. At the same time, there has got to be some kind of change to the attitude that is going to be forced upon the White House, if we are to get through this period in the way that we need to, in an orderly and stable way.
LEMON: I want --
STELTER: Don, briefly, the point about symptoms, I did listen to Trump on Hannity tonight. He sounded like his usual healthy self, for whatever that's worth. He wasn't coughing on the air. That is worth a little bit of information at least to know --
LEMON: Yeah. STELTER: -- he sounded like his usual self.
LEMON: I watched it, too. I watched as much as possible then I had to run up and do the show --
STELTER: Yeah.
LEMON: -- so I didn't hear live the part where he talked about this, but I heard where he denounced white supremacy and so on and so forth. And then he talked about his performance. He is still saying that he thinks he did a great job. He doesn't want the debate commission to change the rules at all. But the question is will the debates even go on.
STELTER: So much for that conversation.
LEMON: We have the next one. Who knows? Right, yeah, but as we say in the news business --
BERNSTEIN: The New York Times noted that he sounded raspy. They didn't attach particular significance to it. But his voice did sound raspy --
LEMON: Yeah.
BERNSTEIN: -- at the time. But we shouldn't speculate.
LEMON: Let me read this to you, Carl. The -- I'm not ignoring you, guys. I just want the viewers to know when I am looking down, I'm checking notes because this is breaking news.
STELTER: Yeah.
LEMON: And I have -- (inaudible) devices and I am getting (INAUDIBLE) that is being printed for me here. The former vice president -- excuse me -- the current vice president, Mike Pence, tweeting out tonight. "Karen and I send our love and prayers to our dear friends, President Donald Trump and the FLOTUS, Melania Trump. We join millions across America praying for their full and swift recovery. God bless you, President Trump and our wonderful first lady Melania."
There are also other folks who were responding, including a Democrat, as of this moment. Representative Ted Lieu of California says, I will keep the president and first lady in my prayers and I wish them a speedy recovery. And there are others, as well. Let me see if I can get here and read some of them, the politicos who are tweeting right now for the president. Sorry, if I can bring them up, I will.
So people from all stripes, Democrats and Republicans, are praying for the president. Senator Ben Cardin of Maryland says no person should have to suffer from COVID. To the Trump family and White House staff, Secret Service, I wish you good health and a speedy recovery. This virus doesn't care about where you live and who you support.
Representative Dean Phillips is also tweeting for -- to the president and first lady. Senator Martha McSally is tweeting out, as well, their well wishes to the president and to the first lady.
Dr. Sanjay Gupta, so the president is saying that they are in good spirits, they will get through this, and as you said, 90 percent chance of recovery with COVID-19. But we do have to remember -- and again, we hope that this does not happen to the president or anyone involved with this -- but there are 200 -- at least 207,000 people who have succumbed to coronavirus in this country. It is a very, very serious and dangerous virus.
[02:10:00]
GUPTA: Yeah, there's no question about it. And, you know, they have to take every precaution here. And I will say the chance for recovery is far greater than 90 percent. Even if you will account for the president's age, his pre-existing conditions, even with that, that's something that sometimes gets lost in this discussion.
But he is considered, you know, to your point, far more vulnerable than someone who would be much younger, someone who is healthier, had no other condition. So this is something that the White House team and the medical team around the president, who are some of the best, obviously, in the country, are going to have to monitor very, very carefully.
As you know, you know, Don, there's no particular sort of cure for this. There are a couple of medications, which are given to people, potentially given to people depending on whether or not they have certain levels of symptoms. Remdesivir is one of them. Dexamethasone, a steroid, is one of them. As we know, hydroxychloroquine is not one of them.
So, there is not a lot of option here. So, the biggest thing is going to be what they call symptomatic management. Again, we don't know. I read the letter again that you sent over to me, Don, in terms of the memorandum for the president. I still can't -- I feel like they chose their words very carefully in this memorandum, perhaps no surprise.
Still can't tell. He is doing well or sounds like he's doing well. Does he have any symptoms? Still -- what is the answer to that question is something that I would like to -- you know, people should ask and the White House should be transparent about. Fever, anything like that, that might be an early symptom.
But nevertheless, the symptomatic management means you are going to be treating the symptoms because we don't have a cure for the disease itself. And that's something that the president and perhaps the first lady and anybody else who tests positive are going to be going through.
LEMON: Does this change, Sanjay, any of the people who are -- the protocol? The people who have come out and talked to us, usually daily the president does it, but the Dr. Birxs of the world, the Dr. Faucis, Scott Atlas, who is going to take the lead on this? Does this even change anything?
Because the president is still saying he is going to conduct business, his doctor at least, he is going to continue to conduct business, and I would imagine that he is going to continue to conduct business in the same way that he has with the same people in his ear, which is at least over the last couple weeks has been Dr. Atlas.
GUPTA: Well, look, I -- I hope not because, you know, you do have some of the best, you know, and most knowledgeable infectious disease doctors in the world who are at the president's disposal, people that are considered the best in the world. So, I hope that we're going to be hearing more from them.
I mean, you know, it's an interesting dichotomy here, Don, because in some ways, based on reporting, we've known that the president has been concerned about this for himself. He has known the severity of this disease going back to early February, right? So, now that he has it, does it take on a whole, new level of concern? Perhaps.
But this isn't one of those, wow, this is a real thing because back on February 7th, he was saying this -- this is deadly. This can spread through the air. It's airborne. You know, he was saying these things back on February 7th.
He should have been implementing policies even within his own ecosystem there in terms of masking and the White House and all that. Certainly, advocating it for the country, trying to keep people as safe as possible. We know, Don, the statistics.
Maybe, this isn't the time, necessarily, to remind people of that. But had we implemented some of those basic, public health policies at the right time, at the time that we understood this disease, you know, 80 to 90 percent of people probably wouldn't have died of this in the United States.
So, I hope now, going forward, that the same people that were providing that guidance, that could have had such an impact, will be providing the guidance we will be hearing from them on a regular basis.
They're not going to be caring for the president. They are not his doctors in terms of providing his medical care. But in some ways, they are the doctors for the country in terms of, you know, preventing problems for, you know, the millions of people who are still at risk of this disease.
LEMON: Sanjay, you mentioned hydroxychloroquine. The president took it. It did not work. Listen, I don't mean to -- that in a -- you know, I'm not being facetious, but it did not. It obviously does not work and did not work for him.
GUPTA: Yeah. I mean, you know, it did not and that's exactly what the evidence would've suggested. I mean, you know, people aren't just making this stuff up. There was a theory on this medication. Maybe it will work based on what we know of this medication. All right, go test it. Go test it.
LEMON: Sanjay, let me ask you this. Let me ask you this, because we know it doesn't work, and I know you don't have to go through the whole explanation of it. Is this a moment of reckoning for the president and this administration?
[02:14:52]
LEMON: For all of the -- all of the pretending or looking the other way and trying to convince people otherwise of the science, for whatever reason, whether it was for to make sure that he was re- elected, to make sure that he had high standing with the public or just to -- for whatever reason, because of the economy, is this now a moment of reckoning that, yes, this is real, it is not a hoax, it doesn't care if you're a Democrat or a Republican, it is time to take this seriously, and all the preventative measures that the scientists, the doctors like Dr. Fauci and Dr. Birx, have been touting for so long?
GUPTA: Well, Don, you know, it's interesting. I would answer first as a doctor. Whenever I take care of patients who are now dealing with a disease that had only been conceptual in their mind for some time, yeah, I mean, people do behave differently after that.
You know, whether it's heart disease or brain disease of the patients I care for, they do treat things differently. There is seriousness, you know, where they may not -- it does change your perspective.
But, Don, you know, it's interesting. The president has known the seriousness of this disease for a long time. We know from these conversations that he had with Bob Woodward.
We know even going back to the hydroxychloroquine thing for a second, why did he take it? Leave aside the fact that it didn't work. Why did he do it? Well, maybe, he was actually really worried. Maybe, he had contact with somebody at that point and he's thinking, oh, I need to protect myself.
So my point is that I think he -- reckoning, I don't know if that's the right word because I think he has known the seriousness of this for some time. What has now happened is that it's affected him directly and that is something he can't hide from. You know, he's -- they've got to disclose this, which they did. They have got to continue to be fully transparent in terms of his symptoms.
And we'll see. You know, we saw what happened with Boris Johnson in the U.K. after he contracted the disease. We'll have to see what happens with the president. In terms of his mindset, not just the physical, sort of, course, that this disease may or may not take for him.
LEMON: I want to bring in now -- doctor, please stand by. I want to bring in Arlette Saenz. Arlette Saenz is a political correspondent for us here at CNN. She has been covering the former vice president, Joe Biden. Are you -- were you traveling with him, as well, Arlette, weren't you?
ARLETTE SAENZ, CNN POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, so, I was at the debate on Tuesday night and also --
LEMON: Are you hearing anything from the Biden campaign?
SAENZ: So, we are -- had reached out to the Biden campaign to see how they are going to respond to this. To also see how they are feeling about the fact that Joe Biden was sharing that debate stage with President Trump on Tuesday night.
We know that the two of them stayed at their podiums on that stage during the debate. We don't know if they had any contact beyond that or if Biden or his family had any contact with any of the president's guests or aides who were there.
But we do know that, for the former vice president, the campaign has told us that he is being tested for coronavirus on a weekly basis. And if he were to have coronavirus, they did say that they would tell the public about that. We don't know, exactly, when the former vice president's last coronavirus test was, but that is occurring on a weekly basis.
And you've seen Joe Biden throughout the course of the campaign take these precautions due to the coronavirus pandemic. He very frequently is wearing a mask. The only times he kind of removes it was when he's quite well distanced from people, if he is giving a speech.
But that is just one of the things, one of those measures that he has been taking to set an example because what Biden has said repeatedly is that we need to listen to the advice of scientists and medical experts and heed things like social distancing and wearing masks.
He has repeatedly said and told the American people that if they wore masks, it could help prevent others from becoming infected and also more deaths. And so he has led by example, he has said, by doing that himself. We also know that the staff, who is frequently in contact with the former vice president, that they are often tested for coronavirus, the media that has been traveling with him, as well.
You know, when I've gone to events, every time, you have to get your temperature checked and answer a questionnaire relating to COVID. So, the campaign on Biden's part has taken a lot of precautions when it comes to the coronavirus.
But right now, we are still waiting to hear what their thoughts are about the fact that the president and the first lady and one of his top advisers have now tested positive for COVID-19.
LEMON: Well, it's interesting because the Biden folks had said that the vice president hadn't been able to get out on the campaign trail because he was heeding the policies of social distancing, wearing masks, and the quarantine.
[02:20:03]
LEMON: He had been heeding that to the way that he thought it should have been and to the way -- quite frankly, the Trump administration had been saying -- adhering to the rules and the criticism has been from the right and from the president, Joe Biden is stuck in his basement, he won't get out, he is wearing a mask, whatever. Perhaps, Joe Biden was doing the right thing and it is now time for the Trump administration to take a lesson from what the Biden folks have been doing, all along.
SAENZ: Well, the Biden campaign has been very resistant to holding these large rallies in the way that the president has ever since the coronavirus pandemic really halted campaigning, as we know it. Basically, between March and early June, Biden was not out there doing public events. When he did start holding events, they were -- they are much smaller. Sometimes, just a dozen people, maybe, and the media.
They have kind of started to expand a little bit of their footprint. He had a rally -- he had an event in Johnstown which was a drive-in rally, where people in Johnstown, Pennsylvania were able to drive up in their cars and sit around outside of their cars, distanced from other people.
They really have been trying, with their events, to show that they are going to listen to the advice of health experts and local officials. They're very cognizant of when they travel to a state, whatever the size gathering limit is, they're very cautious about making sure that they adhere to those standards.
And you had heard criticism from the president and his campaign saying that Biden isn't out there doing enough. You know, the president says there are people that show up to his events, but the Biden campaign has very intentionally and purposefully made sure that their events are adhering to those safety guidelines that have been put out there by health experts and also the local officials, as well.
But really, I mean, Biden has repeatedly stressed the importance of wearing masks. And you've heard, even on the debate stage, the president was mocking the former vice president for wearing masks as frequently as he does. But he has repeatedly said that this is a way to help prevent the spread of this virus and has tried to have his campaign lead by example in that way.
LEMON: Yeah. They have been doing that since the very beginning. Arlette Saenz, thank you very much. We appreciate it. If you're getting more information, please get back to us, we will get you on the air.
I want to bring in now Dr. Leana Wen and also our very own Dr. Sanjay Gupta. This is -- this is -- Dr. Gupta, this is the headline. We learned about this back in January. The country started locking down back in March. The president of the United States has now tested positive for coronavirus after months of downplaying this disease. Two hundred and seven thousand Americans have died from this disease.
Hours ago, he said that we were at the end of this pandemic. And here we are with the president of the United States and the first lady and a member of his staff that we know of now, all testing positive for coronavirus. What a moment.
GUPTA: Sorry, I didn't know which doctor you are talking to.
LEMON: Dr. Gupta.
GUPTA: Yeah.
(LAUGHTER)
GUPTA: Welcome, Dr. Wen. Good morning. Yeah. No, it is -- it is very unsettling. It is -- it is stunning. And I also have to say it's not surprising for a couple of reasons. One is, you know, this is a very contagious virus, OK? And the virus doesn't care. Virus doesn't care who you are. It doesn't care where you are. It just likes to jump from host to host.
But it's also not surprising because it's still stunning to me, I'm sure to Leana as well, that in the highest office in the land, physically, I am talking about the West Wing, the Oval Office, that there weren't some of the basic precautions being taken place. The precautions that we talk about from a public health standpoint aren't fool-proof. They're not, you know, a panacea, but they could have gone a long way towards curbing the spread of this.
And as you were just pointing out, along with Brian and Kaitlan and everybody, there was still a very lax attitude toward this virus within close quarters, close contacts with people that we are having meetings, you know, prolonged meetings, all these types of things. That was always a concern.
And I think for a lot of people, it was -- you know, you are really tempting fate, here, you know, with allowing this to continue to go on, especially in an un-masked sort of way. So, it's again very unsettling for people to wake up to this news. Statistically, the president is still likely to have a full recovery from this, very likely to have a full recovery. But this was -- this was --
[02:25:00]
GUPTA: I would dare say, it was preventable, what we are seeing right now. Testing doesn't prevent the disease. Testing tells you now have it. People kept saying he is getting tested every day. Well, that is not the point really. Testing is important because you can isolate people. But testing doesn't prevent people from developing the disease if they are still not abiding by other public health measures.
LEMON: Yeah. And that was never the point. A lot of people are confused and saying, well, if we just have more testing, that is not going to stop it, but that is not the point of the testing. Yes, it can stop it because then you find out who has it and where and the -- you get the spread of the coronavirus, and also where there are hot spots and so on. So it can help with containing the virus.
Dr. Wen, I asked doctor -- excuse me, good morning to you and thanks for joining us. When I last spoke to you, it was evening. So, I asked Dr. Gupta if he thought this was a reckoning. I think a better question is, is this an opportunity?
Considering the first lady says she feels OK, the president says he feels OK, we are understanding that Hope Hicks is suffering from -- suffering symptoms but is thought that she is going to be OK, is this an opportunity for the president now to correct course and to get people to get on board and to now take it seriously, to tell people to wear masks, to tell people to social distance, to tell people maybe it's not such a good idea to open up all sections of the economy right now, to send all children back to school, that people should not be out hanging in bars and drinking where they won't social distance?
Is this an opportunity for -- to have more buy-in from the American public that will actually put our economy and the health of the country back on track?
LEANA WEN, FORMER BALTIMORE CITY HEALTH COMMISSIONER: I really hope so, Don, but that can't for a moment. It is going to take time for us to see what's going to happen with the president and first lady. Of course, I am praying for them and thinking about them, as well, and hope that they will have a full recovery. But it's going to take time. It's going to take maybe a week or so before they may develop symptoms.
And if people were to develop symptoms, between the time they develop symptoms and between the time that they get very ill, we are talking about another week or two weeks after that, so we are going to be waiting for a while to see what happens with the president of the United States.
But, to your point, I hope that this is an opportunity that all of us, as Americans, will be taking, because we have known for a long time now what it takes for us to prevent this disease. But we have also let our guard down. And in some ways, it's understandable because of quarantine fatigue, also understandable because I think it's hard for us, psychologically, to think about people we love, our family and friends, as having coronavirus.
But there's no face of someone who could have coronavirus. And I think, as we are finding out tonight, the president himself could have coronavirus, and maybe that should be a reckoning for all of us to pay attention to this extremely contagious and very serious disease.
LEMON: What is your advice, if you were advising the White House? Let's just say you were one of the people who had the president's ear. What would you tell him?
WEN: Well, I would tell the president to be upfront with the American people. I would ask him to give an address directly to the American people and explain about exactly what he is going through. I think this is a moment that he could be connecting with the millions of Americans who have had coronavirus and talk to them.
And also, it's an opportunity for him to talk to the American people and explain to them how we can take precautions. We can take matters into our own hands and prevent one another from getting this extremely contagious disease.
It's an opportunity to turn things around the way that I really wish the president had done months ago in terms of having a national strategy. But this is a personal moment that he could connect with the American people and help to save many more lives, potentially.
LEMON: All right, doctors, stand by. I want to get back to CNN's Kaitlan Collins now. Kaitlan, listen, we got the news earlier and your source as well, telling us about Hope Hicks, that she had tested positive, and we are trying to figure out what's going to happen from there. She was in close contact with the president.
The president then admitting that he had heard about it and that he and the first lady had been tested and they were awaiting their test results. Now, we are learning that the president of the United States and the first lady have both now tested positive for the coronavirus. Again, so many unknowns. We don't know what is going to happen tomorrow when the sun comes up in Washington.
KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Which is going to be in just a few hours from now, Don.
[02:29:50]
COLLINS: But we are also learning more about how this has transpired. here are going to be a lot of things that the White House has to answer for because what we have just learned from sources that I have been speaking with over the last hour or so is that there was a small group of officials inside the White House that Thursday morning that knew that Hope Hicks was ill and that she had tested positive for coronavirus. Despite knowing that, and knowing that she was someone who was around senior staff on Wednesday, a very late night trip and around the President, the President still went to New Jersey yesterday for a closed door fundraiser that was inside. Despite knowing that he had spent several hours previously on a plane with someone who had tested positive for coronavirus.
The other thing that that means is that Kayleigh McEnany, the press secretary, was also in close contact with Hicks. Yet, despite that did not inform reporters today and instead held a press briefing at the White House where she came into the room, not wearing a mask and briefed reporters for about 25 minutes. I think it's how long the briefing lasted.
But of course, as is their style, the White House press secretary and her staff they do not wear a mask when they're in the room. The Royals reporters do wear a mask when they are in the room asking questions of the press secretary. So the question is going to be for the White House, why did the President still go to New Jersey knowing that he could potentially put these people at risk, these people, these donors and fundraisers that he was sitting with at this roundtable today. And of course, why did the press secretary still hold a briefing despite knowing that she had come into contact with someone who had tested positive for coronavirus? And just saying that she had gotten to coronavirus test --
DON LEMON, CNN ANCHOR: Why she didn't mention it?
COLLINS: That's -- she didn't even tell us, didn't even tell the reporters who were on the plane, didn't disclose any of that. And there are going to be serious questions about the White House keeping that information, not just from the reporters in the room, but also from the American people about the state of the health of the President and the people that he potentially came into contact with.
LEMON: So, Kaitlan, just real quick here. If this had not leaked or the media had not found out about it, as he likes to say, likes to say the fake news media, which is, you know, not because we reporting is not fake, we have not known about this or heard about it much later?
COLLINS: I think we would have found out eventually. I think it would have been impossible for this White House to have a President who tested positive and not tell anyone. But you have to look at the timing here, because the way the President was speaking to Sean Hannity tonight. He said that he had just been tested. That was around 9:00, about an hour after the story had broken. And said they're waiting on their results.
So you have to question how rigorously are they testing the President? Is it actually on a daily basis, and have they not tested him tonight knowing that the public was well aware of the top aide had tested positive? What if they had waited another day, Don? What if they waited until tomorrow before he was going to Orlando? And then, the President had still been around his family, other aides, other staffers.
There are staffers who work in the residence of the White House, we should note. It's not just people who work in the West Wing and are political focus. There are staffers who work and serve the President and the First Family in the residence. So it raises questions about those people about the Secret Service agents who protect the President and obviously we're in close proximity with him.
It raises so many questions about the people who potentially could have been put at risk because of this, and because of a lack of information and being forthcoming coming from the White House until the President himself decided to tweet out his diagnosis.
LEMON: And there were reporters who were who were traveling with the President on Air Force One, and they didn't know until they heard the news. So it's, I mean, it's just unbelievable.
Kaitlan, I want you to stand by. I want everyone to stand by. We're going to take a break here. We're going to continue on with our coverage. Obviously, the breaking news, the President of the United States and the First Lady of the United States, both testing positive for the coronavirus. We're back in a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[02:37:35]
LEMON: Our breaking news, the President of United States testing positive for the coronavirus. I want to bring in now Miles Taylor, who is the former Homeland Security Chief Of Staff. Miles, good evening to you.
And last we spoke, we were trying to figure out why the results of the test were taking so long. Why the inconsistency and messaging? What happened here? What is going on? And now we know, what's your response to this? What do you think about what's going on?
MILES TAYLOR, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Well, I mean, look, first and foremost, Don, I think we have a transparency problem in the White House. Because what happened to Hope Hicks should have been made known very, very quickly, and if anything at a minimum, it should have been made known to people who are in contact with her. This is what happens anywhere else in the United States. If someone gets diagnosed, you do contact tracing. You notify the people who are in contact. And it sounds like Hope Hicks, who's a senior adviser to the President, was in contact not only with a lot of senior staff throughout the White House, but also reporters and other third parties.
So that should have happened. It sounds like it didn't, but there will certainly be follow-up from that. But much more importantly, Don, of course, the breaking news that the President of the United States is now infected with a once in a century pandemic virus, and that's a major concern right now.
And I think, if you look at this big picture, this is, Don, the October surprise. This is a major game changer when it comes to this election politically, but also from a national security standpoint. We all hope the President is OK. We all hope the President and the First Lady recover from this, but it says a lot as a macro problem, about how they've treated this virus, about how they've disregarded this virus, and the impact that it can have both locally within the White House and nationally, especially when it comes to the 200,000 plus Americans who have died from it. It's very tough to put it into context, but this is a significant moment in this election cycle.
LEMON: Well, here's the issue when you don't heed the guidelines, when you don't follow the guidelines, when you don't do the testing and the tracing that you're supposed to do, because we're all assuming here that hope Hicks was the one who possibly gave it to the President or has spread it to other staffers. We don't know that.
She could just be the first one who has shown symptoms. It could be others in the White House who has infected her.
[02:40:00]
TAYLOR: Or, Don, it could have been the President who infected Hope Hicks. We actually don't know that, right? I mean, we just don't. And at the end of the day, I think the important thing here is that the White House has treated the environment of that building, the most important building in Washington, DC and arguably in the world, like it's not an important place for people to socially distance, protect themselves, use masks and follow the CDC guidance.
We talked about this earlier than I thought. I go to the local Starbucks, and they are practicing those guidelines. They are militant about those guidelines. And the West Wing of the White House doesn't even treat this the same way that a local Starbucks would. That's very concerning, because at the end of the day, we're not counting on the President to make lattes, we're counting on the President to make vital national security decisions.
And if at the end of the day, this ends up sending the whole West Wing home for, I don't know, a week or two weeks, that's not insignificant. These are people who need to have access to very sensitive national security systems and information. And things like the White House situation room, where it -- yes, good ahead.
LEMON: No, go ahead. Finish your thought, because I want to ask you --
TAYLOR: I want to say, look, if that whole building is sidelined, that's not inconsequential. I mean that has real impacts for your security and my security, and it's something that when I was at DHS and we would lead pandemic response, we would have worried about. We would have wanted them to exercise and plan for that scenario. In this White House, they didn't
LEMON: I want -- I don't mean to interrupt, there's a delay. But what I wanted you to dig into that, what are the national security implications? Because I keep getting notes and messages from people saying, my gosh, you know, this is -- I think Samantha Winograd said it was red alert or something like that, that she said. It's alarming.
And many people have been texting me and emailing me and saying, oh, my gosh, the national security implications says they're unbelievable. Dig into that. What are the national security implications?
TAYLOR: Well, I mean, let's go to the worst case scenario. And God forbid this happened. And I think that the chances are very, very low. However, if the President is sick with the coronavirus, we have seen this to be a deadly virus. One of the President's closest friend has died from this virus. We saw a former major presidential candidate die from this virus after going to one of the President's rallies. And again, we've seen 200,000 plus Americans die from this virus.
So if the President of the United States has it, we should be worried. We should be concerned about the commander in chief being in the situation. I think that's the biggest national security concern, is that in the worst case scenario, we could be put in a position where the President might be sidelined by the sickness.
God forbid, it does anything to he or the First Lady. But if it did, then you face a constitutional dilemma. Right now, the vice president of the United States in the middle of the night, he's either been woken up or before he went to bed, he found out that this was the current circumstance. And the vice presidents got to be prepared for the possibility that if the President is sidelined by this, he has got to take over. That has enormous ramifications throughout our federal government. And I think that's the biggest concern.
Also, there's a secondary concern, and that is, our adversaries who've been actively trying to sow discord in our democracy could take advantage of this for electoral purposes, to spread disinformation and concern, and worry, and also to undermine the confidence of the American people in this election cycle, because we are so close to the vote. So I think those are the two big concerns right now, Don, and we've got to watch those closely. And again, hopefully, the President and the First Lady do well through the course of this.
LEMON: Miles, thank you very much. I appreciate you helping me out through the evening and morning here on CNN. Thank you.
TAYLOR: Of course, Don, thanks.
LEMON: Let's bring Brian Stelter back in and our Chief Medical Correspondent Dr. Sanjay Gupta, Chief Media Correspondent Brian Stelter as well.
Brian, let me ask you and I appreciate you helping me out as well. The President has been saying at rallies, making fun of what's happening with this, saying just a couple of hours ago that we're at the end of this pandemic. And you sent me a note saying that he said, what, just 10 days ago.
BRIAN STELTER, CNN CHIEF MEDIA CORRESPONDENT: Ten days ago, he said this affects virtually nobody. He was arguing that most people who get the coronavirus don't really feel it, don't really suffer, and they just recover quickly. Now, we know that's contrary to the evidence. We also know that many people who get sick with COVID feel it for a very long time. I was thinking about my friend Sarah, who was sick in March and was suffering still in June.
[02:45:05]
All of us, Don, have friends or family members who have contracted this disease and know what it's really like. So that's what's made the President's downplaying and denialism so disturbing in recent months.
Now, of course, there's no way to deny this anymore. The entire government is on alert. The military is on alert. Everybody's on alert. And quoting the New York Times overnight, Don, what happens if the President actually becomes sick? What if he's symptomatic? What if he is bedridden? "It could raise questions about whether he should remain on the ballot at all," that's Maggie Haberman and Peter Baker this morning in the New York Times.
Just to give us a sense of the stakes, Carl was saying earlier, no one knows what happens next. It's October 2nd, we don't know what happens next.
LEMON: Listen, again, let's hope that the President is going to be OK. But what about --
STELTER: The odds are in his favor, and that's important to say.
LEMON: Yes.
STELTER: And this is will be a lesson for the country, but --
LEMON: Yes, but you have to -- so you have to say what are the possibilities? We don't know what happens now, right? What are the implications? STELTER: I think the vice presidential debate next week, will there be a vice presidential debate?
LEMON: That's what I want to ask you, is there going to be a vice presidential debate? Is there going to be another presidential debate? Are debates over? Are they gone?
STELTER: Look, three hours ago, the President was going to fly to Florida on Friday for a political event. He was scheduled to be in a crowd in the coming hours. Of course, that's been canceled.
LEMON: Wisconsin.
STELTER: I'm sorry, Wisconsin, that's right, Wisconsin.
LEMON: Wisconsin and Florida, yes.
STELTER: The idea that he was going to be traveling, even though he knew that Hope Hicks was testing positive is disturbing, and it speaks to dysfunction at the White House that they weren't more quickly taking action to try to figure out who was sick, and what the President should do about it. So those are questions for Friday morning, Don, about why there wasn't faster action taken.
As for the debates, right now I'm thinking we're not going to have debates. But again, who the heck knows.
LEMON: Yes, we don't. So many unknowns. I keep saying that, Sanjay, so many unknowns. So I want to put up this video, Sanjay. This is at the debate on Tuesday night, if we can get up. And these are -- so that's the -- you see the Trump folks there. The family walking in wearing masks, and then they all watch this. Take them off. There you go. What do you think?
SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Defeats the purpose of that write down. I mean, you know, this isn't for show only, you know, to wear a mask. And again, I want to be careful here because obviously this is an unsettling time for people. And so, you know, I don't know, I'm from -- this is -- when you wear a mask like this, the reason you're doing it is to decrease the amount of virus you might put out into the environment.
People are wearing masks, I look at them and I say, well, they're doing it to protect others. You take it off as soon as you sit down, you're there for a period of time. They may have been six feet apart. We couldn't tell how far those chairs were apart, but you're there for a long time.
So those could still be considered close contacts. You're indoors, obviously. Look, I mean, there's no secret about this virus at this point. It doesn't behave differently based on whether you're in the presidential debate or you're in some other indoor setting in somebody's home, for example. So it is a contagious virus that likes to jump person to person.
Wearing the masks for the optics of it, I get it. Taking them off as soon as you sit down, it's not going to do what you think it does at that point. You could still be expelling virus.
Now, I think there's also something important to keep in mind is that, say you have an exposure on this day. You could go several days where you test negative, and then you test positive. And it wasn't because of the exposure the day before, it was an exposure several days earlier.
So we don't know exactly who was exposed when. But at this point in the West Wing, you got to be very careful. There's been a lot of close contact. It's obvious, Don, I think to the pictures you've been showing all evening. The video you've been showing all evening. Testing is important, but that's an after the fact point.
I think it's going to be really critical for the White House to be fully transparent. Now, in terms of does the President have symptoms exactly how is he doing? I think, you know, to Brian's point earlier, I mean, how can you have debates where you're going to closely cluster people together right now? What is the mindset of other people in the White House who have come in contact with the president? What about all those other meetings right now?
The contact tracing around this is going to be enormous, but it needs to happen. And there's going to be a lot of people who are probably going to get calls, who may have already gotten calls, even over the last couple of hours and say, hey, look. You had close contact with someone who just got diagnosed with COVID. That person is the President of United States and because of that, you are going to now need to be quarantined and tested all the stuff that we've been taught talking about since March, right? The basic public health sort of strategy, that needs to be happening and it's happening right now at the highest levels of government.
[02:50:08]
LEMON: Listen, we should not underestimate the stress, the strain, the anxiety on the American people over the last eight months or so, Dr. Gupta. They're going to wake up in hours and realize that the leader of this country, of our country is now positive for coronavirus. And are not going to be sure, many of them, of what's going to happen next. That adds an extra layer on top of that, we just don't know at this point.
Doctor, I going to move on. I'm want to get to Dana Bash, because Dana is joining us this late hour, early hour, depending on how you look at it, our chief Political Correspondent.
Dana, thank you so much for joining us. You heard what I what I said to, Dr. Gupta. We've had so much stress and so much, you know, just anxiety over the last couple of months. And now, we are heading towards, barreling towards an election, right? We're in the middle of this election, and now we have the President and the First Lady testing positive and maybe other members of the administration. This is just unbelievable.
DANA BASH, CNN CHIEF POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: It really is. I mean, this is 2020 in a nutshell, Don. This is the year that this entire country and the entire globe is having. Obviously, we should say we wish everybody well but to continue the conversation that you've been having with Sanjay and with Kaitlan and others.
You know, this is -- there's so many data points that we now have of how a system that the White House thought that it had to protect everybody inside. First and foremost, the President of the United States, it failed. And that system was just to do testing and not wear masks. It didn't work. And that is I think going to be, you know, a telltale example for people who are looking at ways to get back to normalcy that that is not the way right now. We are not there yet.
LEMON: But it seems that their system was to not follow their own guidelines at all, just to not do it.
BASH: Exactly.
LEMON: Yes.
BASH: Exactly. They had their own system. And it didn't work. I mean, in some ways, what they were trying to do was get ahead of the game and hope that the resources, that the resources that they have had at the White House that nobody else in the country has, to be able to be tested on a regular basis.
The hope was that, that would be sufficient to keeping people from getting this disease, again, the most important person in that building, the President of the United States. And it didn't work without the basic precautions, taking the basic precautions that as you said, his own government has been saying please take --And for a brief moment the President himself told people to take, even though he, you know, kind of put that aside as he went on to campaign and have rallies mostly outside, but he still had rallies with no social distancing, and very few people wearing masks.
And this is an unfortunate consequence of it. And there's so many ripple effects, that it's hard to even wrap our brains around in the middle of the night now to think about what this could mean. You were talking about the continuity of government, talking about campaigning, will there be a debate, and never mind how this is going to affect voters in places like where I am right now came to do a piece. This is a Trump stronghold where I am.
LEMON: You're in a battleground. You're in one of the battleground states. Yes. So I want to ask you --
BASH: We are in one of the battleground states.
LEMON: So Trump stronghold, as you said, how does -- what happens with the anti-maskers? What happens with the "this is fake news?" What happens with this is a plan-demic? This is created by the media and the Democrats. What does that change at all? I mean, I don't -- you don't have a crystal ball, I know, but what happens with all of that? Now that the person who is really led the charge with that is now positive.
BASH: It is hard to know the answer to that. I will tell you that we spent, you know, the whole day talking to people on both sides of the aisle here. And for the most part when we talk to people about the issues that they cared about, probably won't surprise you that that Trumps supporters who are very, very important in getting all those votes out for the President and the place where I am because as I said, this is Trump country. They didn't think coronavirus was an issue that was going to guide their vote at all.
They thought the President did what he could, and they were much more worried about the issues that the President was telling them to worry about.
[02:55:04]
Like police issues, like gun issues, things that of that nature. And it is a really important question to see how this changes that. And it will, in large part, be dictated, Don, and I've learned this even more so by talking to his staunchest supporters and the ground here in Pennsylvania, will be dictated by what the President says, whether the President changes his tone and tenor.
LEMON: That is so interesting. Because, you know, I think many of the people I speak to, who are Trump supporters. And in many ways, they feel invincible, or that somehow this virus won't affect them. And then, the only time that there is some reckoning or some reasoning is when someone they know has been affected, and it has to be among the serious, most serious of infections, that for them to believe that, that there's actually some credibility with wearing masks, social distancing, and protecting yourself against this virus.
Bash: Yes, you're right. And, look, even the President, he lost a good friend. And our reporting is that certainly around the time that his friend, a friend from New York passed away. He was really shaken by it, realizing that, you know, in another circumstance that could be him getting the virus and getting as sick as his friend, obviously, passing away.
But the political realities that he frankly created with the coronavirus, you know, that was front and center over the past few months, and not that human reality that he himself witness. But again, I can't emphasize this enough. People who are supportive of the President who are not on the fence, and this matters maybe less so for a political discussion and much more so for a health discussion. And we've seen this crystal clear here in Southwest Pennsylvania, what the President says and how he acts and how he reacts, that will dictate how they react.
They listen to him. They listen to every word he says.
LEMON: But early on, what's the date again, guys, on Woodward, was it January, February when he told -- in February, he told Bob Woodward on tape, that this was very serious, and that it spreads through the air. And, you know, it was awful. But he didn't say that to the public.
And so, he didn't tell the people who you say, are going to, however he reacts whatever he says, that's what they're going to believe. He didn't tell them that he said one thing, the real thing behind closed doors, and he told them the fake thing. And yet and still, even now, do you think that they are going to believe whatever the President says, Dana?
BASH: Yes, I do. I really do, which is why it is so important for the President not just to say it on tape to Bob Woodward. And then afterwards, you know, kind of spin it as something that isn't what was the reality back then and just tell it like it is. And again, you know, we all hope that everybody is well and not affected.
But we do know that Hope Hicks, for example, she's a young and healthy person. She has symptoms. She doesn't have just a little sniffle like the President has talked about with young and healthy people. Again, we wish her well, but the fact that somebody who is as close to him as she not only close in terms of a relationship, but physically close. And she is with him every single day.
She was done inside a the White House map room for days at a time with the President, with Chris Christie, with Bill Stepien, the President's campaign manager, Jason Miller, one of his senior advisors, Stephen Miller, a senior advisor in the White House. They were all in a relatively small room maskless for many, many days working on the debate.
So this is obviously about the President. It's about the First Lady. But the question is, all the people around him as well. What are we going to hear about them, the people who are running the White House and his presidential campaign?
LEMON: It is, Dana, we just have a few short seconds left here. But it is really unbelievable, because there's usually a playbook for all of this. We say, well, you know, we learned from this, from this person when they ran for president, when they were president. There is no playbook for what is happening now.
We don't know how this is going to shift the polls, what difference is going to make, if there's going to be any more debates. We don't know a lot of things, what it means for our government and so on and so forth. But, Dana, we thank you for joining us. Best of luck in Southwest Pennsylvania. We appreciate that you stay safe as well and everybody stay safe out there. Again, unbelievable, this is new territory.
I'm Don Lemon. I thank you so much for watching. Our breaking news coverage of this stunning development continues now with my colleague, Anderson Cooper.
