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Don Lemon Tonight

Trump Says he'll Hold Campaign Rallies this Weekend and Claims he'll be Tested Tomorrow; Trump Goes Back and Forth on Stimulus Talks and Debate Plans; An Exclusive Interview with President Trump by Fox News; Pence Postpones Trip to Indianapolis where he Planned to Vote Early; FBI, Vigilantes Plotted to Kidnap Michigan Governor, Overthrow Government; Trump Calls Harris a Monster and Communist in Ugly, Sexist Attacks; Vice President Mike Pence Denies Systemic Racism in America in Vice Presidential Debate; Former CIA Director Hayden Backs Biden, Warns Against Trump Reelection; Ex-Pandemic Preparedness Chief Says Trump is Allowing More People to Die. Aired 11p-12a ET

Aired October 08, 2020 - 23:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[23:00:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DON LEMON, CNN HOST: This is CNN Tonight. I'm Don Lemon. 26 days, can you believe it until Election Day? President Trump's doctor greenlighting him for public events as of Saturday, but refusing to say if he is still contagious with COVID-19 or is he testing negative?

Trump saying he will hold campaign rallies this weekend. Also demanding a return to an in person debate next Thursday. Saying he won't do the virtual format. Joe Biden saying he will hold a town hall on Thursday if Trump refuses to take part in a virtual debate.

Lot's to talk about. Joining me now CNN's White House correspondent, John Harwood, also Amanda Carpenter, the former communications director for Senator Ted Cruz. And former Democratic mayor of New Orleans, Mitch Landrieu. Good evening to one and all.

John, let's begin with you. So, this president keeps going back and forth, back and forth on the debate plans. He gave us whiplash on the stimulus all while the White House's continues to hides his medical information. What is happening at this White House?

JOHN HARWOOD, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Don, President Trump's behavior has always been abnormal, but it feels more so now and I think it's a reflection of the difficulty he's having in managing all of the pressures that he is under. Think about what he's facing right now. He is losing the election to Joe Biden by a pretty significant margin for somebody who is so powerfully controlled by his ego that has got to be very painful to him.

He is facing increased pressure from prosecutors. Prosecutors in New York are going to get his tax returns. And if he loses the election, he loses the shield from federal prosecutors that he has as president. Don't know whether those cases would go forward, but that's got to be on his mind. His son was deposed in a case the other day. And third, he has got coronavirus. We don't know how badly a, how bad

a case he has got. He says he is getting better. The doctors say he is getting better. But the doctors have not made themselves available for questioning. He has not appeared live in front of those of us who cover the White House all this week.

We do know that he is taking a powerful steroid that can affect mood and judgment. You put that all together and you have a president who is unwell physically, unwell politically, and unwell emotionally and psychologically right now.

LEMON: Amanda. I want you to take a listen to the conspiracy theories and the lies we heard from this president on Fox News tonight. Here it is.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: He doesn't want to talk about it. But he endorsed a governor of Virginia who not only executed a baby late term abortion, but executed a baby because the baby can be born and then you can kill the baby. And he is totally in favor of that.

We caught him spying on our campaign. This is treason. We caught them trying to take down a duly elected administration/president and we have all the evidence down there.

The suburbs are over, as you know. The suburbs will be more unsafe than the cities, run by the Democrats. And so I think I should do very well with suburban women, because I'm the one that's protecting them. Both in terms of law and order and in terms of zoning. They want to build low income housing right next to your house as the American dream is destroyed. Destroyed.

Look at where California's going to have to ration water, you know why? Because they send millions of gallons of water out to sea, out to the pacific, because they want to take care of certain little tiny fish that aren't doing very well without water. They have the biggest forest fires. Because they don't manage their land.

[23:05:01]

They don't have separators. They have trees that have been laying on the ground that are stone cold dead dry like a match stick. And you throw a cigarette butt on between the leaves and the trees everything catches on fire. I want them to vote, but I will say this, absentee is OK. Because absentee ballots (COUGHING), excuse me. Absentee ballots are fine. Thousands of ballots, all over the country are being reported. Some thrown in the garbage cans with my name on them. Some thrown in treys in a river. What is going on is absolutely crazy.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: Yes, he is right about that, Amanda. Right? I mean, it is nuts. I mean execute a baby. Interesting that he talks about low income housing a man who is living in public housing right now, because it's the people's house. I mean, about tiny fish who without water -- these are national forests by the way, Amanda run by the federal government that he is talking about. Letters in a river, all of this stuff has been debunked. What is happening?

AMANDA CARPENTER, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, let's think about what happened today. He decided that maybe he would boycott the next debate because he would have to do it over the phone. Why does he feel free to do that? Well, because he can call up Fox News whenever he wants and just spew whatever he wants for minutes and minutes and even hours on end. That was his second call in to Fox today for the America interview.

LEMON: Wasn't it more erratic than usual, no?

CARPENTER: Yes. We know he is crazy, we know he does this. What I struggle with is knowing that there's an entire network that gives him a free pass to do this, right. And I think it's important to remind people that, although Donald Trump is in a very important position of power and Fox News is a powerhouse in its own right.

They are the outliers in this respect, most people will look at that dynamic and say, that's not normal. That's not right. That's not what I think. That's not what I believe. Even though they do have a market share within their own audience so to speak. And so, you know is this odd collaboration? Yes, it's Donald Trump, but yes it's this entire other system that feeds off of it and just kind of like doom loop that keeps repeating.

LEMON: That was, I mean, mayor, you were like, my god. That was crazy, right?

MITCH LANDRIEU, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I mean, its whack-a-nut. I mean, a 5-year-old kid can see that the president is not as we like to say down here in his right mind. In a very short period of time, the American people are going to have the power to take back their country and I think it's clear and it has been clear for a long time, but if it wasn't, today really ought to put the icing on the cake.

The president is not going to keep us safe. The president is not going the lead us to a better day. The president is not going to do anything but burn everything down. Those forest fires that he's talking about in California, by the way, almost 80 percent of the land that he's talking about is actually owned by the federal government. Which he oversees through the Department of Interior.

So, I just think that the people has seen enough, they are exhausted, the president is going to continue to be eradicate and he will continue to do what he is going to do. We know who he is, we know what he's going to do. The question is what are we going to do? We have the power to do something very different and I think the American people are going to make that choice very clear to him.

LEMON: Yes. There was more I mean, after that, Antifa and the whole -- and I was like geez, scary. So, John, listen, we have got information on had this earlier and I've been wondering what is going on. I want to know if you know about the vice president postponing this preplanned trip to Indianapolis where he was set to vote early. Are you hearing any reasons why he changed his plans?

HARWOOD: They are keeping it secret. They are telling us that it's not related to a positive covid test by the Vice President or anyone around him. They say he intends to travel again to Florida on Saturday. But they are not telling us why and it's pretty peculiar and you know, don't know whether that reflects some urgency to get him back in to Washington because of the president's behavior today.

But until they answer the question, it's sort of like, why won't the administration tell us when the president's last negative COVID test was, what's the reason for that? Is it because that would show that he lied to the debate commission, the Cleveland clinic about when he was tested.

Was it because he was infected for a much longer period of time and subjected a lot of other people to potential infection. We don't know the answer to that, and we don't know why the vice president is coming back. But we do know the president is acting strangely and the vice president returning to Washington.

[23:10:02]

LEMON: Amanda, they say the president -- he says he' going to be tested tomorrow, but how can we even believe the result or believe what he is saying?

CARPENTER: You can't believe anything that comes out of this White House. And that's what is so irresponsible. About the way that they act, I mean, they have had a credibility crisis for a long time and now it matters. We need answers about Donald Trump and Vice President Mike Pence. Because this is not just about them. It's about our government, he is second in line to the presidency.

They came out and said, we are just trying to prevent burn out, he was supposed to go to Indiana and go vote. That is not a high action activity to fly to Indiana, go vote and fly back. It makes no sense, we saw him at the debate, he had blood shot eyes and neither of them look good. And so, I'm worried. I pray for our leaders to do well. But they have a responsibility to everyone to tell us what's going on so we can plan and keep this country running.

LANDRIEU: That's right.

LEMON: Yeah, mayor, that's the response we are going to get from you because I'm out of time. I'm sorry, we will get you back. But thank you very much, we appreciate you joining us, all of you, have a good evening.

LANDRIEU: Sure.

LEMON: The suspects in the plot against Governor Gretchen Whitmer were caught on social media and we are learning more tonight about what they were planning to do.

Plus, Reverend Al Sharpton is here. I'm going to ask him, if the president is attacking Kamala Harris because she is a woman of color. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

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LEMON: Tonight, 13 people accused of plotting to kidnap Michigan's Governor Gretchen Whitmer and put her on trial for treason, allegedly because she shut down the state due to coronavirus. Also, allegedly planning to overthrow several state government. Whitmer calling out President Trump for refusing to condemn far-right groups during last week's debate, saying the words of our leaders matter, that they carry weight.

Let's bring in now CNN's Donie O'Sullivan and Chris Swecker, the former FBI assistant director for the criminal investigative division. Thank you, gentlemen. I appreciate you joining us. So, Donnie, authorities became aware of this scheme by monitoring social media. What do we know about their online social media presence?

DONIE O'SULLIVAN, CNN BUSINESS REPORTER: That's right, Don. The suspects here were all over social media, Facebook, Twitter, YouTube, they were posting videos, they were streaming live. Facebook telling us tonight that they have been working with law enforcement on this investigation for more than six months.

And to give you a taste of what the suspects were posting on social media, I want to show you a piece of the complaint here about Adam Fox, a 37-year-old person who has been charged in this case. They said he streamed live on Facebook, in which he complained about the judicial system and the state Michigan controlling the opening of gyms. Fox referred to Governor -- the Governor of Michigan as this tyrant b, and stated, I don't know boys we got to do something.

Don, what we are seeing here really is people feeling emboldened to post openly these threats on social media and the polarized rhetoric we are seeing online just extending beyond the internet and going into the real world.

LEMON: Chris, you have experience with this. FBI, DHS, they have been sounding the alarm big time about the danger of groups like this. Talk to me about how these vigilante groups are growing and why is that?

CHRIS SWECKER, FORMER FBI ASSISTANT DIRECTOR, CRIMINAL INVESTIGATIVE DIVISION: Well, Don, they have been around since the 80s and the 90s. In fact, they were the number one terrorism priority for the FBI in the 80s and 90s, and they kind a, went away after 9/11, now they are back. And these are groups that revolve around all kinds of different antis, antigovernment, they have racist underpinnings. Anti-taxes, anti-abortion and all kinds of different things.

You know, Terry McVeigh, Eric Rudolph, people like that they join up or they cast around and find like-minded people and they start talking about plots and what they want to do. In most cases, and this follows a pattern. The FBI learns of it, they weren't very subtle on the internet and they infiltrated the group, which is common with undercover agents and informants and you know, by the end of the plot, half of the group was probably informants and undercover agents. LEMON: Wow. So, Donie, are we seeing a lot of talk of violence on

social media particularly ahead of the election?

O'SULLIVAN: Yes, I mean, a lot of this sort of violent rhetoric and you know, conspiracy theories used to sort of being you know, just on the small -- the darker corners of the internet, like sort of hate filled blogs, like 4chan and 8chan, that's where the QAnon conspiracy theory which has been labeled by the FBI as a potential domestic terrorism threat grew in popularity.

But now we are seeing these posts and these conspiracy theories spreading to do major social media platforms like Facebook. And tonight, I spoke to Fredrick Brennan, who is the founder of 8chan. He actually left this message board where QAnon grew popular a few years ago and he now thinks that it should be shut down because it's been involved in so much violence. I asked him what he was most worried about ahead of the election. Here's what he had to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

FREDRICK BRENNAN, FOUNDER OF 8CHAN: What concerns me the most about what I'm seeing online is that people are still believing in QAnon at this late day. and they are still believing in all these fake news and they are getting more and more riled up and more and more just focused on this fake news narrative that is spun so much out of proportion at this point and it seems like a lot of them just cannot be pulled out of it until they go commit an attack and then finally people in their life realize how deep they were in. but by that time, it's too late.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

O'SULLIVAN: And you know, Don, you know, Don, he is absolutely right. I mean, just last year, we saw the atrocities in El Paso and in Christ's Church, New England, those suspects, the perpetrators of those atrocities had posted openly online about what they were going to do.

[23:20:00]

LEMON: Chris, how are people like these guys we are seeing in Michigan, how do they become radicalized?

SWECKER: I think many of them come from a background of sort of hate- filled rhetoric. They are railing against the world. That is terrorism in general. You know, whether it's international terrorism or domestic terrorism, your operating as there is something wrong in your life and somebody else's to blame and in this case it's the government. The government is all over them trying to take their guns, etcetera.

So, they get pretty stirred up. The find like-minded people. They are not mensa (ph) candidates by any stretch of the imagination. And they weren't real good at what they were doing, but they can be lethal.

LEMON: Chris, this is a really important and frightening story, and we thank you both for helping us to understand what is going on out there. I appreciate it, we will see you soon. The president calling sooner Kamala Harris some really nasty names

today. So bad that this is how Joe Biden is responding.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE BIDEN (D), PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE: It's despicable. This is so beneath the office of the presidency and the American people are sick and tired of it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: Well, I'm sure the Reverend Al Sharpton has a lot to say too and he will, next.

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LEMON: 26 days, only 26 days until the election and President Trump is launching an ugly name calling attack on Senator Kamala Harris following last night's V.P. debate. Part of this pattern of denigrating strong women. We have a lot to talk about with Reverend Al Sharpton, the host of Politics Nation on MSNBC and the author of Rise up, confronting a country at the crossroads. Reverend, good to see you. Thank you for doing this. I appreciate it.

REV. AL SHARPTON, MSNBC HOST: Good to see you.

LEMON: So, you know we are going to talk about your book. So, we are going to get to that. But you know, I cannot have you on without asking you about the events that's happening in this country right now. In an interview this morning, the president called Senator Kamala Harris, a monster and a communist. And last night she was constantly interrupted by Vice President Pence. How much of that has to do with her being a woman of color?

SHARPTON: A lot of it has to be. Clearly the president attacked many women but he goes way out of his way to be extreme and provocative when it's a woman of color. It goes along within it. It's almost like a racial cocktail for him to be able to be racist and misogamist at the same time.

And he's particularly ugly if a person like Kamala Harris all the way to people like Congresswoman Omar, he does not even call white women the kind of mischaracterized name that clearly dehumanizes them as well as have a sexist under pinning.

LEMON: Let's talk more about last night's debate. Kamala Harris and Mike Pence sparred over race relations. I want you to listen to this moment, again, and we are going to get your take on the other side, here it is.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MIKE PENCE, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: This presumption that you hear consistently from Joe Biden and Kamala Harris that America's systematically racist and as Joe Biden said, that he believes that law enforcement has an implicit bias against minorities is a great insult to the men and women who serve in law enforcement.

SEN. KAMALA HARRIS (D-CA), VICE PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE: We are talking about an election in 27 days where last week the president of the United States took a debate stage in front of 70 million Americans and refused to condemn white supremacists.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: What were you thinking when you heard Pence dismissing police bias against people of color and how do you grade Harris' response?

SHARPTON: Well, clearly, you either have to deal with a data that says that blacks are disproportionately incarcerated while minority in the population, majority in many of the states around the country's jail population. So we are either inherently criminal. We are inherently less qualified because we are unemployed and in some states doubles nationally clearly almost double.

And we are inherently less educated because we just can't learn or there is systemic problems across the board. I mean, you explain the data, if it's not systematic, then we are inferior. That's the only conclusion you could have.

And when Senator Harris brings up the (inaudible), it's clear that she is absolutely on point, because it supports the fact. I think the way you find out if someone is at the pre-judgement, is you go to the facts and then come back. And say, how do we get to these facts? Either systemic or you are dealing with people that are inherently inferior.

LEMON: Let's talk about voting rights, because I know that you're a big proponent of that. It's one of your issues. A big topic of conversation in this race. Are you concerned the president is trying to throw the election in his favor with this false narrative about voter fraud? That he has been pushing?

SHARPTON: Absolutely. He is trying to throw out, what I would say is a climate (ph) to usher in one, why he is defeated if in fact he is. And second it undermine the rights of blacks so that as his fellow Republican right-wingers can purge voter rolls. Can change voting sites. All of that is done under the cloud of him raising suspicion to the whole voting system. There is a method to his madness.

LEMON: Let's get to your new book right now, and it is called, Rise up, confronting a country at a crossroads.

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And you write in part, "Trump's lack of political correctness is appealing to a certain group of people and this country -- everyone from Roger Stone and Steve Bannon to the disenfranchised blue-collar worker -- because they themselves feel shunned by the politically correct, a group I call the latte liberals, who hold tight to the academic principles of right and wrong, and act as if the conflicts we face in this country are nothing more than material for a stump speech. This kind of thinking -- purity politics -- is just as dangerous as Trump's obvious disdain for democratic norms."

Listen. Joe Biden is no latte liberal. Can he win back the blue-collar voters from Trump?

AL SHARPTON, MSNBC HOST: I think he can win the blue-collar workers from Trump because the blue-collar workers from Trump have not received any of the things that Trump has committed. And Biden understands the everyday life. He comes from them. He relates to them.

Trump has never been a blue-collar worker. He has never been socially or culturally relational with them. He has been rejected by many of the power elite. Those of us that come out of New York, he was about nine years older than me but grew up in the same kind of environment, know that the powerbrokers downtown rejected some of us because of race, rejected him because they did not consider him and his dad legitimate.

So, he has the same kind of chip on his shoulder that a blue-collar worker have. But they didn't understand that chip was there for very personal reasons, not because of any real class system or especially not racism.

LEMON: Biden has been walking the line of a moderate Democrat who can embrace some progressive ideas, but he still doesn't agree, for example, with defunding the police. Has he alienated a lot of progressives out there, you think?

SHARPTON: I think it's according to how you define progressive. There are many progressives that have said different things. Issues like defunding police, how you interpret that? Are you saying fund various things other than just keep recycling money in to the same areas that don't work? Are you talking about no police at all?

I think that there is not a monolith in terms of who you call progressive, and many progressives are feeling not progressive when it comes to race. They are progressive in many areas, but when it comes to race. They almost become like, let us do the talking and set the standards. That's not progressive at all in my book.

LEMON: You have been very open about your progression when it comes to race and other issues: the reckoning over race across the country and the acknowledgment of the very real white supremacist threat. It's forcing people to take a hard look at their own words and actions, and I saw that you did an interview earlier this year, I think you talked about that, about how you were accused of anti-Semitism in the past and you had to reflect on your own words and actions. How are you dealing with this reckoning? Have you done enough, you think?

SHARPTON: I think it's all a process. I think that many of us -- I have never been anti-Semitic and anything else, but you can give words that can be twisted, misconstrued, and even the victims be frightened by. So if you're really a not something, rather than just denying it and being correct and denying it, you must be sensitive that you don't even indirectly, inadvertently give people any feeling of discomfort, and that is why language becomes important.

I write about it in the book. I've learned that. I was admonished by Mrs. Coretta Scott King to don't even give air to anything that can be misconstrued to be representing anything other than what you solidly and fundamentally believe. Even in slang, you can hurt people, and it is not justified by saying it is just slang. If it is harmful, it is something that you should resist.

LEMON: We have with seen groups, the neo-Nazis screaming "Jews will not replace us," and blood and soil." We know that these white supremacists and these neo-Nazis have work to do when it comes to anti-Semitism. Do you think African-Americans do, as well?

SHARPTON: I think that that there are some in every community, including African-Americans, has to deal with anti-Semitism, homophobia, and gender inequality or misogyny.

I write about it in the book, because the idea in the book is to say, unless we have an anti-sectional movement that represents fighting against bigotry on everyone, not comparing who is the most suppressed, I got more oppression than you, I got more history and more pain than you, that may be true.

The question is can we all stop the oppression that we all face in whatever degree and fight against those that are against all of us.

[23:35:03]

SHARPTON: And until we can do that, they will keep winning by picking us one against the other.

LEMON: Listen. I appreciate your candor on this and how you are dealing with this. But there are those in our society who just -- who can't -- who are not dealing with this in a way that is constructive. And one of those people in the White House right now is stoking division. People -- I know you write about all of this in your book.

But what happens to our country right -- what happens to our country, our country who is led by someone who says there are very fine people on both sides and then tries to qualify it by saying there are some good people in the crowd because they are fighting for heritage and they don't want statues taken down? I am not sure what good people march with neo-Nazis and white supremacist, but what happens to our country from here? What do we do?

SHARPTON: I think that we do what we did in the past before my time and certainly before yours. We have to unite those forces and take them out of power. We may not be able to change their heart, but we can certainly change their position.

Here's a man in the White House that rolls, saying that a black man who was running and then became president of the United States is not one of us. Birtherism was at its core racism. The last in-person meeting that he and I had when he was running was around me arguing with him it was racist. He is saying it wasn't racist and he wanted to try and explain it to me. The basis of Donald Trump's politics was racism. Before that, he was just a guy doing "The Apprentice" and a supposed to be businessman that we found he was not a good businessman. His politics is based on racial divisiveness, us against them.

Obama is not one of us. That was his calling card, and he is using that same song all the way through. The way you deal with that is you take away their political power. You hope to change their heart one take, but you can change their position come Election Day.

LEMON: All of these sayings and much, much more, the reverend, Al Sharpton, writes about in his book. The book again is called "Rise Up: Confronting a Country at the Crossroads." Thank you, reverend. I appreciate it. Be safe.

SHARPTON: Thank you, Don. Thank you.

LEMON: He is a long-term public servant, he has served under three different administrations, and he is voting for Joe Biden. The former CIA director, General Michael Hayden, tells us why next.

Plus, a key government scientist working on a vaccine quit -- he quit, I should say, because of Trump's administration's response to coronavirus. He is speaking exclusively with CNN.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[23:40:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: President Trump appearing to blame Gold Star families, the families of fallen troops, for infecting him with COVID. You heard that right. Here's what he said on Fox Business.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: I met with Gold Star families. I didn't want to cancel that. But they all came in and they all talked about their son and daughter and father. They come within an inch of my face sometimes. They want to hug me and they want to kiss me.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: The president is referring to the White House event for Gold Star families. Of course, no one knows exactly where President Trump contracted the virus and the White House still won't provide definitive timeline of the president's coronavirus tests leading up to his diagnosis.

But the day before the Gold Star event, he was at a packed, mostly mask-less ceremony for his new Supreme Court nominee where multiple attendees have now tested positive for the virus.

CNN's national security analyst and retired general, Michael Hayden, joins me now. He continues to recover from a stroke, by the way, he had in 2018, and we are so happy to have him. General, thank you so much for doing this. We really appreciate it.

MICHAEL HAYDEN, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST, FORMER CIA DIRECTOR, FORMER NSA DIRECTOR: Thank you.

LEMON: So general, why do you think President Trump is blaming Gold Star families for giving him the coronavirus?

HAYDEN: Well, you know, many things, he will blame on somebody else and there's a great -- I can't believe that that would be happening. But he does. It's unbelievable.

LEMON: Yeah, you are right. You are calling out the president, general, and you are backing Joe Biden in a new video. Here's some of it. Let's listen to it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HAYDEN: If there was another term for President Trump, I don't know what happens to America. Truth is really important but especially in intelligence. President Trump doesn't care about facts. President Trump doesn't care about the truth. He doesn't listen to his experts. The FBI says white nationalism is a real problem. And the FBI wants to do something about it. But the president doesn't want to talk about that. He doesn't keep the country safe.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: General, you worked for three different administrations. What do you think will happen to the country if Trump is re-elected?

HAYDEN: I don't know. But it's not good, OK? Even if he leaves in a few months, that will be very good. But things are happening already.

[23:44:57]

HAYDEN: If he says he is now -- a second term, I don't know what happens to America, institutions, our way of life. I'm not -- I'm really, really worried about that.

LEMON: Yeah. A lot of people are, general. You know, this plot -- let's talk about this plot to kidnap Governor Whitmer. It was broken up by the FBI. Is this kind of right wing domestic terror threat worse now than it has been?

HAYDEN: Oh, absolutely. Even so, I can see that now, OK? And the FBI talks about that. But the president doesn't want to talk about that at all. It's really, really sad for America. And then, you know, we said something today, that's very good. But, you know, it's going to happen again and again if the president does another term.

LEMON: Mm-hmm. I think what you meant was we can did something, we managed to foil it today, but it is going to happen again.

HAYDEN: Exactly.

LEMON: Yes, absolutely. HAYDEN: That's what I was saying.

LEMON: Yeah.

HAYDEN: Exactly right.

LEMON: General, the top counter Intel official in the U.S. said that foreign powers are taking advantage of President Trump's lies. Listen to this, please.

HAYDEN: Yup.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If they see a reference made by the president of the United States, a prominent U.S. senator, a business person, someone who America looks at as a voice of reason and they believe it suits their interests, they will amplify that by a thousand to make sure that the most amount of people see it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: Is this president enabling foreign election interference?

HAYDEN: Oh, absolutely. That's exactly right. A lot of times in CIA, NSA, FBI, they are doing the right thing. But the president isn't talking about that at all.

LEMON: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. These intelligence officials and the institutions that you say he attacks all the time.

HAYDEN: That's right. They are trying. But, you know, if the president doesn't want it, that's a problem.

LEMON: Yeah. So, the president today is attacking two of his most loyal cabinet members, Secretary of State Mike Pompeo and also Attorney General William Barr, publically pressuring them to charge Biden and President Obama with crimes. Is this something that can really happen, general?

HAYDEN: I don't think so, OK? I think America will be OK. Again, if not -- you know, not now. But if the president does another term, I don't know what happens to America. I really mean that. This is the most important time since the Civil War. That's the problem.

LEMON: You encourage people to get out and vote.

HAYDEN: Oh, absolutely. And if we do that, I think it will be OK.

LEMON: General Hayden, it is always a pleasure. It is good to see you so much. Say hello to your wife. We appreciate you joining us.

HAYDEN: Thank you.

LEMON: I love having him on this show. Reckless, dangerous, that's what a former key government scientist is calling the president, and he is exclusively calling CNN that the president's actions are allowing more people to die. That interview is next.

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[23:50:00]

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LEMON: So, you may not know Rick Bright's name, but he was a top federal scientist working on developing a COVID and claims he was pushed out of his job last spring for criticizing Trump's response to the pandemic.

Bright is now warning that we don't know how sick the president may be and he might not be in the right state of mind to make sound decisions. He spoke tonight with CNN's Jake Tapper.

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JAKE TAPPER, CNN CHIEF WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT: Speaker Pelosi has said today that the president is -- quote -- "in an altered state right now" and suggested -- quote -- "there may be some impairment of judgment" due to the fact that not only does he have the virus but he is on medication, including a steroid that is known to have a possible side effects on mood and irritability and judgement.

Is she going too far? Do you think that he is in an altered state right now, potentially?

RICK BRIGHT, SCIENTIST, FORMER DIRECTOR FOR HHS BIOMEDICAL ADVANCED RESEARCH AND DEVELOPMENT AUTHORITY: You know, what we're missing in this whole situation is transparency about really how sick the president is. We don't really have the truth about when he was infected, what stage of infection he's in.

I don't think we know all of the various treatments he was given, in what combination, in what dosage. And so, I would say anything is possible at this time. I don't think she is going too far. I think she has every right to be concerned about his behavior, about his response and about his recovery because we just don't know the truth yet.

TAPPER: It's true. They have not been transparent. They've been opaque. Why does it matter?

BRIGHT: It matters because it's a message for America. It is a message for people around the world. We need to know what is wrong with our president. We need to know how sick he is. We need to know what type of treatments he's getting, so we can learn from that, so other people will be able to follow the right example.

The president is giving a very mixed message right now. He is not well. We would not want any other person on the planet to do the things he's doing, this soon after knowing they're infected. We wouldn't want someone up out of the hospital bed with these types of experimental therapies right now.

[23:54:58] BRIGHT: So he's leading with a very bad example for the entire world, actually.

TAPPER: And how dangerous could that be, theoretically? I mean, he is surrounded by, frankly, not a lot of guardrails. The people like General Kelly and General Mattis and others have long gone. And I don't know that he has anyone in his orbit who can tell him no, frankly. What does it mean if he is not thinking rationally because of the medication he is on?

BRIGHT: It is very dangerous. He is in charge of a lot of things. He makes a lot of important decisions for our country and for the world, actually. And if he is not in the right sound mind to make those decisions rationally, then he can be very reckless for our country and for the world.

TAPPER: There are at least now 20 people in the president's orbit who are infected with COVID. That's as many as we know about. There might be more. We still don't know, as you alluded to, we still don't know when he last tested negative. Meaning, we really don't have an idea of when he first contracted the disease.

The only explanation I can think of as to why they keep stonewalling on this very basic question, when did he last test negative, which gives us an idea when he caught the virus, is that the answer is actually worse than the spectacle of the continued stonewalling. What do you think?

BRIGHT: Jake, that's the same behavior we have seen from this president since the start of the outbreak. He has never told us the truth about the risks or the seriousness of this outbreak. He has not told us the truth about his status and when he was infected.

You're right. When you hide the truth and you're not transparent, you are hiding something much worse. And by hiding that, by lying to the American public and by not telling us the full truth, you are actually prolonging the duration of and impact of this pandemic. You're actually allowing more people to die.

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LEMON: Thank you, everyone, for watching. I appreciate it. Our coverage continues.

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