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Don Lemon Tonight

President Trump Ousted Defense Secretary Mark Esper; A.G. Bill Barr To Investigate Voter Fraud; Georgia Senate Runoffs Could Decide Who Controls Senate; U.S. Now With 10 Million COVID-19 Cases. Aired 10-11p ET

Aired November 09, 2020 - 22:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[22:00:00]

CHRIS CUOMO, CNN HOST: He wasn't about parties or process. He wasn't political that way. He would have always slough it off by saying I'm from Canada. He kept pounding into me to remind people that we are better than what surround us and that disagreement is a waste of time when you can deal with things that can be done.

He was a good, decent, simple man in many ways, and he was very good to me for no reason at all. He needed nothing. He wanted nothing except to give.

He recorded his last show just last week, a week and a half ago. I couldn't believe he was still working. I told him several times, you know, stop doing it. And he said, I like it. I'm committed to it. And it matters to people.

There will never be another Alex Trebek. And I've never met anyone else that to me personified what I would like to be as a father and a husband more than he did. What Alex Trebek was about, we must remember because it matters so much right now. And I hope that is his legacy.

Thank you for watching. "CNN TONIGHT" with D. Lemon starts right now.

DON LEMON, CNN HOST: That was beautifully said. And you talked to me about how you would speak to him and what he was going through. And he loved watching -- he loved watching us I would hope, me, but I know he loved watching you.

But I've got to tell you, I am a huge game show fan, but the nostalgic game show, I loved Alex Trebek, I loved "Jeopardy" but my favorite is when he hosted "Concentration." Do you remember that?

CUOMO: Sure.

LEMON: And he used to wear the goofy sweaters. If you want to know, I mean, he had such a personality because on -- he had a personality that would come out on "Jeopardy" but he was more of a human being I think and more of like a dad when he was hosting "Concentration." Am I wrong?

CUOMO: He was just, first of all, he was exactly what you saw.

LEMON: Yes.

CUOMO: You know, so many people in this business, phony. No phony in this guy. But I think that he -- I think the beauty in him was the simplicity.

LEMON: Yes.

CUOMO: You know, this guy set every standard of success you can have in this business. He lived simple, small, here's what you do, here's what you don't do, talking about that damn lawn all the time and the irrigation and the leaves and the thing and the -- I was like don't you have ten guys -- no, no, no, he'd wave it off.

He was a good basic man --

LEMON: Yes.

CUOMO: -- and we need that right now.

LEMON: Yes.

CUOMO: Look, it sucks that for his family that he's gone.

LEMON: Yes.

CUOMO: He was in a tough fight. But you know, I do believe on one level everything happens for a reason. And a country that's all tore up about how to be human beings right now just got a really painful reminder of how someone lives life at their best who perseveres through difficulty at its worst, and does it with a sense of honor and purpose of what matters more than he does.

LEMON: And there's so much -- there are so many similarities. I know he didn't like to be political. But there are so many similarities to him and the decency that we're getting at the top of the country right now and that is the current president-elect.

And so, we can talk about Alex Trebek, and he with wish him and his family well. We've got to talk about what's happening in this country, Chris. And I thank you, and you're a good man. I love you. Great last night. I enjoyed having dinner with you and the entire family. It's really good.

CUOMO: I love seeing you.

LEMON: It was great, yes.

CUOMO: You and Trebek represent the same thing in my life.

LEMON: Yes.

CUOMO: I am ridiculously blessed with having great people around me.

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: I thought you were going to say people who owe you money. But he didn't. No, he didn't.

CUOMO: Nope. No, he didn't. I owe him.

LEMON: All right. I'll see you later.

CUOMO: Have a great show.

LEMON: Thank you very much.

So, everyone, this is CNN TONIGHT. I am Don Lemon.

OK. So, I'm just going to -- this is like give us a while here in the news media. Because you know, we have to, we've got to learn how to quit the other person. Right? It's like a break-up. We've got to get the other president, the other out of our phone contacts so we can stop talking about it.

Right now, is flailing, everything is flailing, flailing, flailing. I'm just here to tell you it's going to be OK. He's just flailing. And if you're concerned about can he hand over the keys and national security and -- it has implications that he doesn't want to do it. But guess what, here's what -- here's what you need to know.

Joe Biden has been there before. OK? So, it's going to be fine. He has Barack Obama to rely on. He's got the national security folks around him. Really smart people. People who believe in America and not just someone going I don't want to go, I don't want to go.

So, for a little bit if you'll bear with us, we've got to talk about the infant I don't want to go, I don't want to go. He's going to have to go. That's it. He's out. He's no longer president in January. He lost. He is the loser. He was fired.

So just know that through all of this. OK? Because we have a new reality in America right now. A new reality. We have a new president- elect, everyone. Do you hear me? A new vice president-elect. It's a new day. It really is. The people have spoken. You spoke and you spoke very loudly, very clearly.

[22:05:01]

But there are forces in this country who don't want the people to be heard, of course. Flailing, you know, who are trying to go against your will. The will of the American people. That is Mitch McConnell. He is front and center. He's backing the current president's efforts to deny the reality that the president lost to Joe Biden. OK?

But here's what I want you to know about that. Mitch McConnell knows that Donald Trump lost. Donald Trump knows Donald Trump lost. All the Republicans know that Don -- no matter what you hear on state TV or in conservative -- they know. You know what this is about? I'm going to tell you later.

This is about Georgia in January. They cannot say well, it's time for the president to go and he needs to concede and all that. They need to keep people riled up and scared about the special election, Mitch McConnell, in January because they don't want Republicans to lose control of the Senate. That's all this is about.

It's not like that they believe he has a chance. He doesn't have a chance. It's all P.R. Right? It's all to stir people up. So just know that. Because there is no evidence of any significant fraud and election officials are defending the integrity of your vote.

So just know that. But the current attorney general, his current attorney general, not for long, again, patience, patience. Bill Barr giving prosecutors a green light to pursue unsuspected -- excuse me, unsupported allegations of voting irregularities. In some cases, before results are even certified. Even though that appears to be a complete reversal of previous Justice Department guidance.

Georgia's two Republican senators are demanding the resignation of Georgia's Republican secretary of state. OK? A Republican secretary of state. Two Republican senators demanding the resignation. After he said that there was no evidence of widespread fraud in his state. This is all about January. Riling people up.

He's still -- still doing it to his supporters. Still pulling the wool over their eyes, getting them to react to things that aren't real. And the folks at state TV, Fox News, are pushing it all along. Trying to undermine the clear will of you, the American people.

And while we as a nation have been subject for years to the current president's pettiness, his wrath, his insecurity, and his ego, he's proving himself again to be a very small man on a big stage. Again. I'm sorry I have to talk about him, to continue, but it will go away soon. Except on January 20th he's going to get the hook.

Joe Biden is going to take the oath of office as the 46th President of the United States. The reality is Biden has 279 electoral votes. His margin in the popular vote is more than 4.6 million. So, like I said, the American people have spoken. Joe Biden is not wasting any time. He's starting work right away to heal this nation.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT-ELECT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: This election is over. It's time to put aside the partisanship and the rhetoric that -- designed to demonize one another. It's time to end the politicization of basic responsible public health steps like mask wearing and social distancing.

We have to come together to heal the soul of this country so that we can effectively address this crisis as one country where hard-working Americans have each other's backs and we're united in our shared goal, defeating this virus.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: So that's -- that should be and will be our focus, where this country is heading, what direction. Not looking back. Not dealing with I don't want to go. Because they're going to have to go. I didn't want to go to school. I remember that first day of school. I didn't want to go. I didn't want my mom to leave. But guess what, she left. And it was great. I was fine. We're going to be fine.

And as Joe Biden is getting to work for the American people, the people who elected him, the current president is refusing to accept the will of the people. We're learning tonight that Biden's allies are realizing that they will have to fight in the face of the president's opposition. He's not just being a sore loser and refusing to concede. Here's what he's really doing.

But again, I'm telling you it's going to be OK. Because we're lucky, this country, that we have someone who has been there before. Right? But this current administration is holding up funds to pay for the orderly transition of government. The transition usually begins as soon as possible so the new president has time to form a government, including vetting an entirely new cabinet, and is ready to govern on day one.

[22:09:59]

So, remember, again, the former vice president, current president- elect, has been there before. If it was someone new coming in, maybe you just be -- you should be really worried. But it's going to be fine.

Instead, the current president is holding all of that up. Because? He's a sore loser. He's keeping Joe Biden and his senior advisers from being briefed on crucial national security issues with the presidential daily briefs that presidents-elect usually get.

That's not how a transition is supposed to work, everyone. That's not following the will of the American people. That's not following what you want. The fact is as the current president nurses his grievances and refuses to admit defeat he is putting the American people in danger.

Firing the defense secretary in the middle of a transition while the world is watching. Firing him for not being a yes man. That with fears that his CIA director and FBI director could be next. Adding to the chaos inside of the White House. Throwing temper tantrum, trying to disenfranchise millions of Americans with lawsuits experts say are doomed to fail.

It's smoke and mirrors, people. We're at the point in the Wizard of Oz where Dorothy and the tin man, they've gotten to where the curtain is and they're looking and he doesn't even know they see him yet. He doesn't know that we see behind the curtain and that it's him. Until he turns around and goes, you can see me. We see him. His seams are showing.

The American people deserve so much better. They deserve a government that puts the people first. Just look at how then Vice President Joe Biden welcomed Mike Pence -- this is back in 2016. Look at that. Class. Dignity.

Tweeting, I just met with V.P.-elect Pence at the White House to offer our support for a smooth, seamless transition of power. Class. Maturity. Dignity. Where is Mike Pence now? Going on vacation

for the next few days. Compare all that with the way John McCain conceded after his hard-fought 2008 race against Barack Obama.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

FMR. SEN. JOHN MCCAIN (R-AZ): I had the honor of calling Senator Barack Obama to congratulate him.

(CROWD BOOING)

MCCAIN: Please. To congratulate him on being elected the next president of the country that we both love. Senator Obama has achieved a great thing for himself and for his country. I urge all Americans who supported me to join me in not just congratulating him but offering our next president our good will and earnest effort to find ways to come together.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: Well, I guess we couldn't really expect any of that from the current occupant of the White House. He's acting like a sore loser even before he actually lost.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: If I lose to him, I don't know what I'm going to do. I will never speak to you again. You'll never see me again.

Could you imagine if I lose? My whole life, what am going to do? I'm not going to feel so good. Maybe I'll have to leave the country. I don't know.

Just drive the hell out of here. Just get the hell out of here. I had such a great life. My life was great.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: Aren't you glad that's over? I mean, just the -- it's like the last guy left in the bar. I remember I was such a great quarterback in high school. That was back in '67. That's what's happening right now. I dated the prom queen. I was so great. That was 50 years ago. It's over.

Like I said. He's a sore loser. He lost his job. He got fired. So yes, all of this obstruction, the false claims, the Trumped-up investigations, they're all about him. But they're also about another man who wants to keep his job. It's this guy, right? Doesn't want to be the Senate minority leader. Not after everything that he put up with from this president, right? Just sort of doing whatever this president said. OK, yes, sir, yes, sir, yes, sir.

He had to deal with the chaos, the impeachment, the rampant pandemic. He wanted his justices. And he wants his power. OK, everyone. Listen. Why would Mitch McConnell back this? Shouldn't he know? He's smart politically. Why, why, why?

Think about it. The Georgia Senate runoffs set for January 5th that could decide who controls the Senate.

[22:14:58]

Thanks to the people of Georgia, the state Republican Senators David Perdue and Kelly Loeffler, they're in jeopardy. So to keep the base fired up, to keep Mitch McConnell's job, the president who lost his has to obstruct, obstruct, obstruct. All the way to the bitter end.

The last gasp. You know when people, it's their last gasp sadly, take big ones. It's the last gasp. Keep calm and carry on, people. We're going to be all right.

Arlette Saenz is here. She's with the Biden team in Wilmington. Kaitlan Collins at the White House. Good evening to both of you. Good to see you.

Kaitlan, what started out looking look a petulant president not accepting the results of an election becoming a full-blown crisis. Where the president, the Senate, the Department of Justice and the right-wing media joining forces to try to block the results of this election. It's amazing to watch. But it may be fun actually to watch. A bit painful but we'll see what happens. What do you know?

KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: I think, Don, what we're seeing from the president is that he's not going to go quietly. And he had shown us that last week because he started almost immediately contesting the outcome of these results.

But just look at what has happened today alone, which is we started earlier today with the president announcing that he is firing the defense Secretary, Mark Esper, something that we saw coming but of course it was a sudden announcement today that even caught some people at the Pentagon off guard. And there's only two months left in his tenure.

But then also we've got this situation with the transition where general services, which is supposed to technically identify Biden as the winner of the next election, has refused to do so far.

And that seems like it's just logistics with government, Don, but it actually does have a big impact because if they ID'd him as the winner the Trump administration would have to do that but it would unlock money for them, it would give them e-mail addresses, office space, give Joe Biden access to those presidential daily briefings so he could be caught up to speed on what's happening in the national security realm, things that actually do matter when it comes to a transition of power.

And then of course as you mentioned earlier we've got this new memo from Attorney General Bill Barr, who has been incredibly silent we should note not only for the last several weeks but especially the last several days as you've seen the president and his allies making these accusations without any basis behind them about voter fraud and he's telling prosecutors that they can investigate these instances of irregularities.

But Don, if you look at the fine print of this memo, Bill Barr says they don't -- they clearly make it obvious they don't have any examples of that or any evidence of that because he says they don't want any of these random examples of voter fraud. They want widespread legitimate allegations to be investigated.

And it's clear they don't have that because if they did, we likely would have heard about it from now. And instead we have not heard that. But what this does provide is for people like Rudy Giuliani, like Kayleigh McEnany and the Dave Bossies to go out and use this as they are making these unfounded accusations that we've seen from them even today, Don.

So, it's a lot of news coming out of the White House when typically, this would be a quieter period. But we still haven't seen the president. We only saw him twice this weekend, it was when he went golfing on two occasions. But other than that, Don, we have not seen the president since last Thursday.

LEMON: Two words, Rudy Giuliani. And when you say Rudy Giuliani is leading your legal team? You might be -- you might be in some trouble. OK.

COLLINS: The four seasons total landscaping.

LEMON: The four seasons. Total landscaping between -- correct me if I'm wrong, a crematorium and a sex shop. I'm like, wow.

COLLINS: I think it was an adult bookstore. Yes. I wasn't there. But yes, I think that's exactly what it was.

LEMON: Boy. Arlette, how are you? Good to see you. So, with the full force of the Trump administration trying to obstruct the transition, what is the president-elect going to do about it?

ARLETTE SAENZ, CNN POLITICAL REPORTER: Well, President-elect Joe Biden's friends and allies are now realizing that they may need to take a more aggressive posture. Joe Biden was telling his friends and allies over the weekend that he wanted to give Republicans and the president some space to accept the results of the election but as they are seeing all of this unfold they are realizing that they may need to put up a bit of a fight.

The transition officials holding a call this evening saying that they're looking at a variety of different options, actions that they could take in response and they are not ruling out the possibility of legal action as right now essentially the administration, by not having the GSA administrator sign this letter, is holding up some of the important technical aspects of the transition as Kaitlan mentioned.

They don't have access to funds. They are unable to receive and discuss classified information.

[22:25:02] There's also -- could be a hold on things like background checks for cabinet nominees, which could really have a long-term impact. So, we expect to see the president-elect's advisers and allies really to start to more aggressively push back on what they've been seeing from the administration regarding this assertation of his presidency.

They feel that Biden has won and that the administration needs to accept that. And as you're seeing all of this unfold, Joe Biden is just plowing ahead with the work that he feels that he needs to do. He announced the formation of his coronavirus task force this morning. Tomorrow he will be speaking about the Affordable Care Act.

The Supreme Court is set to hear arguments, trying to completely undercut President Obama's signature health care initiative that Biden has vowed to protect. So, the president-elect is plowing ahead with the work that he feels he needs to get done, but there are these very important technical aspects of the transition that still need to move forward and at this point they're being held up.

LEMON: Yes, I see that. And a lot of it is just, some of it is real estate, some of it is funds, I understand that. But Arlette, thank you. Thank you, Kaitlan. But I'll tell you the viewer, here's the thing. That when they said Joe Biden has been in D.C. for 47 years and -- that will help him at this point. Because he knows how to do things. Right? Been to the White House. Been in D.C. 47 years. Knows all the players.

So again, all these actions that you're seeing from the president and the administration, it's awful that they're trying to block all of these things. But I have no doubt that someone as levelheaded as the president-elect and the people he has around him, I think they're going to be just fine. But we're going to have to deal with these antics for a moment.

So, it's looking a lot like there is a coordinated effort to deny or plan to deny the will of the people in this election. We're going to call it out continually, next.

[22:25:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: So, the current president still refusing to accept that he lost his election. His administration is blocking Joe Biden's team from beginning the process of transition. In fact, the Trump appointee tasked with -- tasked with officially affirming Biden's victory formally kicking off the transition process still hasn't done that. And so far, silence from most Republicans on Capitol Hill. Silence. And even on Biden's victory.

That as the Attorney General William Barr clearly playing to an audience of one, President Trump. Telling the federal prosecutors tonight to look into unsupported allegations of voting irregularities.

Let's discuss now. Jim Messina is the former campaign manager for President Obama. Stuart Stevens, a former chief strategist for Mitt Romney's presidential campaign.

Gentlemen, good evening. Still we're talking about chaos and very well could be some. So, let's discuss. So, Jim, Joe Biden was elected president. The people have spoken. It's very much -- looks like tonight there is a coordinated plan afoot to deny the will of the American voters. What's going on?

JIM MESSINA, FORMER OBAMA CAMPAIGN MANAGER: First of all, what's going on is ridiculous. And you have a few people at the very top including the attorney general of the United States -- this is beyond Watergate. This is -- the attorney general attempting to use the power of his office to go after not unsubstantiated claims, they're literally aren't claims.

There aren't legitimate claims about anything here. And we're talking about not close elections either. As you know, right now Joe Biden leads in the big three states of the Midwest by almost three times what Donald Trump won by. You're not going to find any sort of voting pattern that would allow you to overturn that.

But instead what they're trying to do is find any single excuse to play to the only person they care about, which is the erratic President of the United States who's acting like a child and instead of showing real leadership at this time of crisis, which attorney generals and Senate majority leaders and other folks are supposed to be doing, instead what you see is them kowtowing to the president because they're worried about his base.

And the big losers here is the democratic process. And you know, Vice President Biden has said repeatedly he's going to come in here and try to bring the country together. His job is so much harder when you have senior officials of the Republican Party telling the voters that there actually may be real issues here when we know fundamentally, they aren't. And instead of being patriots they're being pathetic.

LEMON: Stuart, my only question, will it work? Can they -- can it work?

STUART STEVENS, FORMER CHIEF STRATEGIST, ROMNEY PRESIDENTIAL CAMPAIGN: No. It's not going to work. But I think this should be treated very seriously because it's extraordinarily destructive on multiple fronts. You know, since the 1920s the message of the communist party and a lot of our enemies was that we don't really have democracy in America. And that's exactly the message Donald Trump is trying to send now.

But really, I hold the Republicans responsible because Donald Trump is not going to change.

LEMON: Right.

STEVENS: But this is when the party should stand up. And all you have to do is say the person who won, won. That should not be a heavy lift. And I also think that we haven't talked enough about the racial element here. Because really when they're talking about when they talk about fraud and all this inner city and Georgia, they're really talking about black voters and that there's something suspect and possibly illegitimate about these black voters electing the next president of the United States.

And let's be clear, it was mainly black voters who did elect Joe Biden in a lot of these key states. There's nothing new or novel or interesting about it. It's just sort of Jim Crow stuff again with a different face. I think it's really shameful. I think the law firms that are handling these cases should be ashamed. They should not be in the business of trying to disenfranchise Americans.

[22:30:01]

LEMON: I'm glad you said that because as I was doing my open, I was thinking about that all along, like what is this. And it's reason -- it's the reason for so much frustration, especially from African- Americans and minorities. Because you see it, right? And I'm glad you point td out, Stuart.

Jim, I'm going to ask you, is this election birtherism? Is this birtherism all over again, considering what Stuart just said?

MESSINA: Boy, it really feels like it, doesn't it? I mean, you have Republicans calling for the ouster of the Republican secretary of state. They're talking about things that just didn't occur. They're attempting to create this second history, these alternative facts, which is still another gift the Trump administration has given us, just the term alternative facts.

And now you know, the problem is, as Stuart said, is there are people out there that are going to believe this. There are people out there that are actually going to think there's some credence to this, and it's just going to make it harder to pull us all together.

And you know, you have this Georgia Senate runoff in the middle of this. And you know, there both Republicans called for getting rid of the secretary of state. Mitch McConnell won't speak. I mean, these people that Stuart is talking about, these Republican leaders, not only are they not doing the right thing, they're doing the exact wrong thing and they're doing it for very partisan political reasons. And so far except for people like you there aren't people standing up saying enough is enough.

LEMON: So, Stuart, but what happens in January? When it says OK, Donald Trump is no longer the president no matter what they're pursuing in court or what have you. Joe Biden is going to be president. He's going to have to -- Trump will have to leave the White House. It's over. So, what's the point in all of this?

STEVENS: The point is to delegitimize the election so that Donald Trump and Republicans can spend the next four years saying that Joe Biden wasn't really elected. Look, you don't leave the presidency. The presidency leaves you.

So ultimately this is not going to have any impact on what's going to be the outcome of this election. But I think that words are important. And we're going to have a generation here that looks at a suspect election. And look, what I get is this is three miles from, say, Arlington

Cemetery where men and women died to defend democracy. And you can't get these Republicans to get their comshop (Ph) to put out a two- sentence statement that the president of the United States won a fair election, the next president? I mean, really? It's really come to that? You don't have that much courage? For a defeated -- to stand up to a defeated president? It's just --

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: What are they afraid of a man who lost the popular vote twice. Jim, did you want to get in on it?

MESSINA: Yes, I do. Thank you.

STEVENS: It's not a --

MESSINA: Yes, this is about the 2024 presidential election. Right? First of all, they're terrified Donald Trump's going to take his ball and leave the Republican Party and split it. The second thing is you've got folks like Lindsey Graham and other folks who think crazily enough, I think, that they could run for president in four years who are worried about this base of voters and they're starting to say hey, I'm Trumpian too, I'm going to act like him too.

It really is just absolutely crazy, but people are playing their own politics at the exact moment when we should put politics aside. We just had an election that went on for approximately 20 years. And now we should put it all aside and say let's all join hands and see if we can make this country better. And instead you have a bunch of people worried about their bases at the exact time they shouldn't be.

LEMON: Thank you, Jim. Thank you, Stuart. I appreciate it. I'm sure I'm going to be talking to you guys in the near future. We'll see you soon.

Huge news about the coronavirus vaccine today we need to tell you about. And it's desperately needed as the U.S. passes 10 million cases.

Our chief medical correspondent is Dr. Sanjay Gupta. He's going to fill us in. That's next.

[22:35:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: And we have this. The United States today passing more than 10 million confirmed cases of coronavirus. Ten million. Right now, 44 states around the nation trending up in cases. No state is currently heading in the right direction.

That's why we need to bring in our chief medical correspondent Dr. Sanjay Gupta. Doctor, thank you. I appreciate you joining us.

This is really, really serious stuff. The president-elect striking a very, very different tone than we have been hearing from the White House. So how will the coronavirus response be different under a Biden presidency? Can we get that together quickly before things get even worse than they are now?

SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, you know, I think that -- I listened to his speech that he gave yesterday. I've read through the Biden-Harris transition plan on COVID. And there's a lot of differences, Don. You know I mean.

There's evidence-based sort of guidance here in terms of masks and also really ramping up testing. You know, this idea that still, don, you could be getting tested very regularly, even every day, which sounds Pollyannaish. But that's how the NBA did it. Many organizations are doing this. That sort of testing being available for the country. And you know, really emphasizing the importance of masks.

We know, it almost makes your eyes glaze over to talk about masks nowadays, it's become so politicized but we know it works. In Arizona when their numbers went up 151 percent, they were going up to exponential growth, they did three things. They had a mask mandate for a period of time. They stopped public gatherings and indoor locations where people can't mask like bars were closed down for a period of time and numbers dropped 75 percent in three weeks.

[22:39:55]

That sort of thing could happen for the country, but right now we're going into exponential growth. So, it's a very different tone. I wish some of these policies would come sooner as you're pointing out. The president-elect doesn't get inaugurated till the end of January. But already hopefully people are listening to some of these messages.

LEMON: I want to talk to you about this vaccine. But quickly. You know, as we watch the numbers and where we are. Right? We've been watching them here in New York. And it's getting really scary, right?

GUPTA: Yes.

LEMON: Getting to the level of where things may possibly be shut down again. And I'm sure that's happening in other cities all over the country, Sanjay. Where are we headed with this unless something happens really, really fast?

GUPTA: Well, I spent a good chunk of the weekend, Don, really thinking about that exact issue, talking to epidemiologists, really looking at these models. You know, we're in essentially a national sort of state of exponential growth. You know, there were these waves, you know, northeast and then the south, then the Midwest and then southwest and now it's all sort of congealing around this exponential growth.

I think that, you know, we are going to continue to go up in terms of the newly diagnosed infections as well as people who need to be hospitalized and sadly people who will die. I think our efforts now at this point are probably not going to change that apex, but it's a question of do we just plateau there for a period of time --

LEMON: Yes.

GUPTA: -- or do we quickly come down the back side of that curve? I think we can come down the back side of that curve quickly if we do these things. And you know, it's just -- again, there's basic public health practices, Don.

LEMON: Hey, Sanjay, I have to go, you know that because I went a little long with the last segment and the one before. Are you encouraged by this vaccine, Pfizer, and all of that?

GUPTA: Yes. Look, I think this is some good news today, Don.

LEMON: OK.

GUPTA: There are questions I have. We always have to turn a critic's eye to these things. Right?

LEMON: OK.

GUPTA: That's my job but yes, we should celebrate a good day when we have it.

LEMON: All right. Thank you, doctor. We'll see you soon. I appreciate it.

GUPTA: You got it. Thank you.

LEMON: So, he's golfing and he's firing people. He won't concede on the election even though he lost. Mary Trump weighs in on what her uncle the president is doing. That's next.

[22:45:00]

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LEMON: So, is the president being petulant, destructive, or both in his actions since Joe Biden was elected?

Joining me now, the president's niece, Mary Trump. She's the author of "Too Much and Never Enough." And we appreciate you joining us, Mary. Thank you so much. Good to see you.

So, Biden is on pace to win by the same Electoral College margin that your uncle called a landslide. Does your uncle really not think he's lost or is he just being a sore loser? What's -- what is going on here? Help us understand.

MARY TRUMP, PRESIDENT TRUMP'S NIECE: The first thing we need to understand is that the idea of losing, it's not just anathema to Donald, it's literally the worst thing that could happen to him. So, he's going to do everything in his power to convince other people, including himself, that he did not lose.

He's I think one of the only people I've ever met who can gaslight himself. So, on some level he knows the numbers, he knows -- he understands the arithmetic here, and that he did indeed lose decisively.

However, over time he will be able to convince himself as he's trying to convince other people that he did not lose. And that's where we get into some dangerous territory, especially considering how many Republicans in leadership are willing to go along with it.

LEMON: That's where the issue is, isn't it? It's not really him.

M. TRUMP: Right.

LEMON: It's the Republicans in leadership. Correct?

M. TRUMP: Precisely. That's where the danger lies. Because honestly, it doesn't matter if Donald concedes. It's not a requirement. It doesn't matter if he accepts the results of the election or if he helps with the transition or if he goes to the inauguration. All of that is entirely beside the point.

However, the only people who can put a stop to what he's doing now are the Republicans. And unfortunately, they have entirely disqualified themselves from, you know, being anywhere near the levers of power. They are being entirely undemocratic right now, and it's very dangerous.

LEMON: So, who can get through to him? Is it Ivanka? Is it Jared? Is it Melania? We'll talk to Mary about that right after this break.

[22:50:00]

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LEMON: So, I'm back now with the president's niece, Mary Trump. She is the author of, "Too Much and Never Enough."

So, Mary, let me ask you, I asked before the break, is there anyone who is in the president's orbit, a family member, anyone who can talk some sense into him, that can get through to him?

M. TRUMP: No. For a couple of reasons as I mentioned, it's almost impossible for him to wrap his mind around the fact that he has lost and there is absolutely no way for him to convince anybody otherwise.

And two, people like Jared and Ivanka are way too invested in having Donald in the Oval Office. Their relationship with him is entirely transactional and they want to avoid him at all costs getting on the wrong side of him. So no, I don't think there is anybody who either can or would try to talk him into a concession.

LEMON: is he -- is he -- I mean, you know him, is he in some -- is he somehow using the media in this moment to amplify what he is saying for legitimacy? Because if it wasn't covered perhaps, he would just be yelling into the wind.

M. TRUMP: Absolutely. You know, another thing that factors into his unwillingness to concede is that he in mediately becomes irrelevant in American politics. The attention would all go to President-elect Biden and Vice

President-elect Kamala Harris and, you know, he would not get the same kind of coverage. He would not stirrup the same kind of emotions and his base that are out being stirred up and that is a problem because, if it were just Donald screaming into the void, we could be -- we'd be OK. But as I said, earlier, it's Republican leadership kind of following his lead for their own craven political purposes.

LEMON: How much do you think this is him, you know, breaking everything on the way out? Because you said that's what he is going to do. I mean, he's already fired the defense secretary, Esper. We're told that a CIA and FBI directors could be next.

[22:55:03]

Do you think that's just talk or should we be worried about that, meaning the country?

M. TRUMP: We should definitely be worried about it because regardless of his motives and honestly, I think his motives are -- he is going down, everybody else needs to go down with him. He actually has power, unfortunately. We've got 72 days left in this transition period and it is not an empty gesture to fire somebody like Esper. It's not an empty gesture when people in your administration are blocking the new administration from being able to do anything because you won't release the funds that allows for a smooth transition of government.

So, we should definitely be worried and on our guard and vigilant about what happens and I think, again, the pressure needs to be on Republican leadership because I don't know there is anybody else who can contain the damage that Donald is apparently perfectly willing to inflict upon the country --

LEMON: Yes.

M. TRUMP: -- he has been extensively leading.

LEMON: Mary Trump, it's always good to see you. Thank you so much. I appreciate you joining.

M. TRUMP: Thank you, Don. Have a great night.

LEMON: You too. We'll be right back.

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