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Don Lemon Tonight
Dr. Scott Atlas On Defense Mode; Sen. Lindsey Graham Wants To Get Rid Of Cast Ballots; Trump Loyalists Refuse To Acknowledge Biden's Victory; No Sign Of Slowing Down Of COVID Cases; Trump Supporters Withdrew Lawsuits In Three States; Barack Obama Slammed Trump In His Interviews. Aired 10-11p ET
Aired November 16, 2020 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[22:00:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CHRIS CUOMO, CNN HOST (on camera): Thank you for watching. Time for the big show. "CNN TONIGHT" with its star, D. Lemon.
DON LEMON, CNN HOST (on camera): I really thought that we're -- you're going to be late to me, you guys were talking about misinformation what the man, Sam Donaldson, I love him. Don't try to steal him for you. I love having him on the show.
CUOMO: Well, I know that he is a friend of CNN TONIGHT, so I gave him extra time into your show because he is on your show so often.
LEMON: I know, but when you're talking about misinformation, there's so much of it out there. You know, as I was -- as I was getting ready for the show, I was watching a lot of it, not meaning not your show, but as you know, you know, on other channels. And it's just -- I don't know what to say. I don't know what they're going to do but it doesn't matter. It doesn't seem to be a reckoning.
CUOMO: Our brothers and sisters on state news got some problems because Newsmax and that OANN, One America -- Trump is going to direct his people there. And he made them and he can take it away.
LEMON: We talk about it last night, didn't we?
CUOMO: It's -- I think they got a legitimate issue there.
LEMON: Do you think, so you think he can take that much of their audience to be --
(CROSSTALK)
CUOMO: Yes. I bet he can take a third to 40 percent.
LEMON: That's an issue, what do you?
CUOMO: Look, they made their bed. That's why we don't pick sides.
LEMON: That's right. Yes. CUOMO: Well, that's why we don't do it.
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: Well, we do pick sides.
CUOMO: Journalism has to exist --
LEMON: We pick the side of the truth.
CUOMO: -- no matter who wins.
LEMON: We don't political sides. We pick the side of the truth. And that's -- except in this in the last couple of years there's certain people who have made seem -- made it seem like you are picking a political side when you're picking the side of the truth.
The truth is not on your side, you can say someone else is biased if they don't have what you think are good things to say about you because you're not telling the truth. They don't like me, it's a bias.
CUOMO: Right.
LEMON: No, you're not telling the truth. You're lying and you are doing things that are outside of the norm, that doesn't make us political, it makes us journalists. We are doing what we are supposed to be doing.
CUOMO: Yes. I thought what the former president, with all due respect, missed in his analysis is, you know, everybody has got love for Walter Cronkite, he was very nice to me personally as was his wife Betsy, may they rest in peace.
LEMON: Different times.
CUOMO: But this, we have never had.
LEMON: No.
CUOMO: A president motivating disinformation and a news organization echoing him and them working together to attack the rest of the press.
LEMON: Yes.
CUOMO: You know, so.
LEMON: And so, we have never had a president who busts all kinds of norms, right. Which is why there has been quite frankly criticism of Barack Obama, people felt that he should be speaking out much earlier, because the current president was breaking so many norms, they felt that someone had to do it.
But listen, I don't, neither here nor there, I'm not saying it, I'm just saying what people have been -- have been talking about. But I think he is damned if he did, damned if he didn't because they would say he's too early, why he's involving himself -- (CROSSTALK)
CUOMO: And he had a big disadvantage.
LEMON: Right.
CUOMO: The left eats its own.
LEMON: Yes. And the left has to stop doing that.
CUOMO: And if he had come out early, he would have gotten criticized --
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: He would have gotten criticized then, right.
CUOMO: -- by his own and the right doesn't do that as we are seeing right now. Good men and women who took an oath are now ignoring this president's empty attacks of an election --
LEMON: Yes.
CUOMO: -- saying we should let it play out when they know they have no factual basis to delay.
LEMON: Well, the part but that we have to remember, we cannot both sides this. Yes, both sides do it. But the people who have been in control of this government, the people who have been in the White House, they have had the Senate and they have had the Congress for a while. Those folks, what? Went along with everything this president did, no matter how horrible, so I think there's onus on, more onus on one side at this point, now the Democrats, we'll see how they respond to it.
CUOMO: We haven't heard what they're doing now since the 50s.
LEMON: Yes.
CUOMO: When people would go after the most aggressive of those who were against social justice. And politicians would say, well, that's not my style --
LEMON: Yes.
LEMON: -- that's not how I would say it. We can't play those games with the truth --
LEMON: Yes. Or --
CUOMO: -- and with systemic injustice and with the realities of our elections and institutions.
LEMON: Or just no comment, people who say nothing, even, you know, worse. I got to run.
CUOMO: I love you, D. Lemon.
LEMON: I know you do, you better.
CUOMO: Make your witness.
LEMON: I'll see you, buddy. Take care. I love you too.
This CNN TONIGHT. I'm Don Lemon.
We got a whole lot of news for you. And we're going to begin -- OK. I have to begin with some hard truths about this country. Are you ready? And hard truths about this country for its current president, the hard truth -- the hard truth and it's something I wish I didn't have to say right now, is that there are people alive right now -- this is tough.
[22:05:07]
There are people who are alive right now, who won't be at the end of the year. Some of you may be watching now. That's just the truth. People who should not be dying but they are. And it's all because of incompetence in what we just talked about, disinformation.
Because of lies about the virus that's killing us. We have had two straight weeks of more than 100,000 new cases every single day, every day. And Joe Biden, who was a president-elect, is telling the hard truth about the virus, and the current president's lies and his stalling.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNKNOWN: What do you see as the biggest threat to your transition right now given Trump's unprecedented attempt to obstruct and delay a smooth transfer of power?
JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT-ELECT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: More people may die if we don't coordinate.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON (on camera): Don't want to hear it, but that is a fact. It's not about politics, it's not about right, it's not about left, Republican or Democrat, not at all. It's not about who you voted for. It's about a deadly virus that won't take a time-out while we wait for the president, this current president to wrap his head around the fact that he lost the election.
That's where we are right now. The current president cannot wrap his head around the fact that he lost. And the blame is, at the feet of everyone who is spreading disinformation about the virus from the president and his super-spreader events at the White House and on the campaign trail to his totally unqualified COVID adviser, Scott Atlas, who is not an infectious disease expert and who has been encouraging the people of Michigan to fight stay-at-home orders that could actually save their lives. Rise up.
Really? This, in a state whose governor was targeted in a domestic terror plot to kidnap her. Dr. Atlas telling Fox News he didn't mean to threaten or insight violence in that tweet.
Stanford University where Dr. Atlas is a fellow at the Hoover Institution tweeting his views are inconsistent with the university's approach in response to the pandemic and that his statements reflect his personal views not those of the institution or the university.
Joe Biden calling out Dr. Atlas for playing politics while people are dying.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BIDEN: The idea that the president is now existing, remaining adviser on COVID is saying that they should resist. What the hell is the matter with these guys? What is the matter with them? Resist? We are talking about 350 to 400,000 people dying? I mean, what are they doing? It's totally irresponsible.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON (on camera): What is the matter with these guys? The reality is, Joe Biden is the president-elect. The reality is, Donald Trump's presidency will end in 65 days. Over. And until then, he is just wasting time that we don't have. He is wasting America's time while Americans are dying.
And Americans who believe this president's lies about the virus who believe the virus isn't real are dying just like everybody else. Because the virus doesn't care about your politics. While the president only cares about politics. So, just listen to what an E.R. nurse in South Dakota has seen and heard.
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JODIE DOERING, E.R. NURSE: Their last dying words are, this can't be happening. It's not real. And when they should be spending time, facetiming their families, they are filled with anger and hatred and it just made me really sad the other night, and I just can't believe that those are going to be their last thoughts and words.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON (on camera): The virus is running rampant, as it does, more and more communities are facing the hard decisions to close schools. HHS Secretary, Alex Azar says this.
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ALEX AZAR, SECRETARY, UNITED STATES HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES: It's ridiculous to close our schools. It's not driven by science and data or evidence.
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LEMON (on camera): What? Now the fact is, he is right that schools should not have to close. But it's happening because the entire response has been to ignore reality. Pretend the dead people don't matter. Get everybody fighting about what we cannot do. Go to a bar. Go to the gym. Instead of telling them all the things we could do if people would just wear a mask. Like go to school. Like keep our economy going without further shut down orders. Like save lives.
[22:10:02]
We are in this position because we have a president who holds super spreader events in the White House. This is a truth, people. Because the message from that White House is to liberate, that wearing a mask impinges our freedom. But as the reality of what we are facing in this country begins to sink in, even some of the president's supporters are changing their minds about masks. This is Virginia Governor Jim Justice.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GOV. JIM JUSTICE (R) WEST VIRGINIA: How I do feel about the mask? I don't like them. I don't want to -- I don't want to wear them. I am Donald Trump's best friend, I absolutely stand with guns and for life, for no new taxes, for balanced budgets, but more than anything, I want us to get more control. More control over this terrible virus that's just eating us alive. I want us to absolutely wear a mask.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: I said Virginia, check that, West Virginia. It is a shame that the president presented America with a false choice. It's, it was either the virus or the economy. That's a false choice. False, that is his whole M.O. though. He is just living in an alternate universe. Tweeting and watching TV, playing golf.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BIDEN: Yes, the idea that the president is still playing golf and not doing anything about it, is beyond my comprehension. At least you think he would want to go off on a positive note.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON (on camera): And that brings me to the president's Republican enablers. You know who you are. You know it. What are you doing, what are they doing as while Americans are dying and the president is stalling the transition to Joe Biden's administration? What are they doing? I think we should be speaking directly to them because they know who they are.
You are doubling down on his delusion, that there is something that could change the fact that he lost. There is a winner. And there is a loser. He is the loser. Joe Biden is the winner.
CNN is keeping track of how many senators are living in the real world where Joe Biden is in fact the president-elect and that number remains at four, not including for example, Lindsey Graham. Georgia's secretary of state pushing back tonight against team Trump's baseless claims of voter fraud. Telling the Washington Post he had a conversation with Lindsey Graham, this is what he said, that gave him the impression the senator wanted him to look for a way to toss out mail-in ballots. Legal ballots. Legal ballots. Throw out the ballots. Listen to what the secretary of state, Brad Raffensperger tells CNN.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
WOLF BLITZER, CNN HOST: I just want to be clear on this, Mr. Secretary. You say Senator Graham wanted you to find ways to get rid of legally cast ballots. Because CNN asked him about these allegations, he denied them. He says that's ridiculous. His words, that's ridiculous.
BRAD RAFFENSPERGER, GEORGIA SECRETARY OF STATE: Well, it's just an implication that look hard and see how many ballots you can throw out. And I think that they are looking at that as part of the court case and one actually was subsequently filed, wasn't it?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON (on camera): Nice job, Wolf. And ask if he consider Biden the president-elect. Graham said tonight, no, not until the courts have rendered a verdict on the claims made by the president and/or he concedes.
So, if he concedes -- think about it. And or he concedes. So, if he concedes does that mean that OK, everything we are doing stop because the president conceded? Think about that.
So, if you illegitimately thought something was wrong with the election and the president conceded, you would say continue on. But, you know, just me here.
Do you know better, Senator Graham? Are you showing us who you are? Well, he showed us who he is. And there is Senator John Cornyn. Come on down. Who also can't bring himself to speak the truth Joe Biden is the president-elect?
The senator telling CNN's Manu Raju, quote, "it hasn't yet been determined, let the process play out." Senator Cornyn, it has been determined in the very same election that re-elected you and Lindsey Graham.
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So, does that mean you and Lindsey Graham aren't legitimately elected if the president isn't re-elected. Because, I mean, I'm sure If you want to like, concede to your challenger, I think the challenger would may be OK with that, if you don't think the election was legitimate. Concede to the person that you lost to. If you really believe in what you said. Both of you, do it.
Senator James Lankford, who just last week said Biden should be getting briefed on national security and said he would step in if that didn't happen now back tracking. Really? Shocking. Saying Biden should only get the briefings he had as a candidate, not the presidential daily brief.
America voted and their decision deserves your respect. Former President Barack Obama calling out the president and his enablers comparing Trump transition tantrum to a pouty child and saying the whole sorry mess delegitimizes the democracy.
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BARACK OBAMA, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: We would never accept that out of our own kids behaving that way if they lost. I mean, if my daughters in any kind of competition pouted and then accused the other side of cheating when they lost, when there was no evidence of it, we would scold them.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON (on camera): True. Nice to hear two people sound like the president. Neither is in office yet.
I want to bring in now CNN's Kaitlan Collins. Kaitlan, good evening to you. Good to see you. So, we have some breaking news tonight that, President-elect Biden will get a national security briefing tomorrow. CNN is learning new information about the battle inside the White House over President Trump's legal strategy to fight the election results. And it's not pretty. So, tell us what you know.
KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: No, it's not. And we are seeing the president keep up this fight, Don, as he is refusing to concede the election and that's why that briefing that Biden is getting tomorrow is not going to be an official briefing that he would typically get if the president had given him access to the presidential daily briefing.
That one that comes and it's compiled by officials at the CIA and in the intelligence community.
And so, the president is continuing this and moving on. Continuing to try to mount these legal challenges, even though we're seeing them fall apart in several states. And there are a lot of people in the president's orbit who wish that he would not keep this fight up, because of course they realize there is no light at the end of the tunnel here and they are seeing their legal chances just dwindling by the day.
And so, new CNN reporting shows that there was a confrontation in the Oval Office last Friday, where the president's deputy campaign manager is in the room, Rudy Giuliani, we're told was dialed in and Rudy Giuliani is someone who wants the president to continue fighting and he's basically basing what sources are telling CNN, is misleading the president on his chances of success here.
Though we know our reporting shows that the president knows that he has lost this election to Joe Biden. He admitted as much in a tweet yesterday before walking it back. But he wants to keep this going because he knows it energizes his base. It fundraises money. And it could build him up support if he wants and decides to run again in 2024.
LEMON: So, it's not about democracy, it's about him. It's not about the country. It's about him.
COLLINS: Yes -- they are framing it as if it's about democracy and if they don't do this, no elections will be free and fair after this. Obviously, the president's own administration has said this was the most secure election in American history. So, you can judge that for yourself.
LEMON: Boy. Kaitlan, I thought your job might be getting a little easier a couple of weeks ago. But no, no, no. It doesn't look like it.
COLLINS: We'll be here every day.
LEMON (on camera): And we'll have you as long as you are here covering it. Thank you so much, Kaitlan. I appreciate it, I'll see you soon.
You know, you heard the warning from President-elect Biden. More people may die if the president keeps stalling the transition. Are things about to get much worse? Much, much worse? Can we stop the spread and just mask up? Well, judging by this scene in the Senate today, not any time soon. Here it is.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. SHERROD BROWN (D-OH): I'd just start by asking the presiding officer to please wear a mask as he speaks and people below him, I can't tell you what to do. But I know that the behavior --
(CROSSTALK)
SEN. DAN SULLIVAN (R-AK): I don't wear a mask when I'm speaking like most senators.
BROWN: Most senators.
SULLIVAN: So, I don't need your instruction from --
BROWN: I know you don't need my instruction. But there clearly isn't much interest in this body in public health.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[22:20:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON (on camera): So, we have to talk about this, this is -- this is an emergency, I would say, coronavirus cases are surging across the U.S. We have seen more than 100,000 cases a day for the last two weeks straight. Today, we have really bad news about what lies ahead of us in the coming weeks. But also, really good news about what is on the horizon with a vaccine.
Joining me now is CNN's Chief Medical Correspondent, Sanjay Gupta, and the former FDA Commissioner, Dr. Mark McClellan.
Wow, this is the power team right here, and we need you guys, seriously. Thank you both for joining.
Sanjay, I have to start with you. Because the President-elect Biden is warning that more people may die if the Trump administration keeps blocking the transition. What's you -- what do you think of that? Is he right?
SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, yes. I mean, you know, look, this is a really important time, I think if there's nothing else that we've learned. We've learned that these colder months where people are clustering inside, the numbers are going to go up.
I mean, hospitalizations expected to maybe even hit 100,000 hospitalizations. You know, we used to talk about the number of people becoming newly infected at any given day, hitting 100,000 seemed outrageous, there may be that many people in the hospital.
So, it's critically important, Don. And we know at this period of time, there are things that can be done. We have seen in places where they have had numbers sort of skyrocketing that are simple, sort of measures putting in mask mandates.
[22:25:07]
Stopping, you know, large gatherings of people. And you know, certain types of locations where people are clustered in doors like bars. If you at least limit capacity in those areas, you could make a big difference.
I mean, they found that you could actually curb 80 percent of new viral infections by just limiting occupancy in some of these locations for a period of time. So, it's critically important and they have to start planning on increasing testing, the vaccine distribution and all those other things.
But had this period of time happened in the summer, maybe not as important. Still important. Not as important. But this time of year, is, is critical, Don.
LEMON: Yes. Dr. McClellan, let me bring you in. Because we had Halloween, the election and post-election celebrations or protests, right, and/or protests. And Thanksgiving is next. We know deaths lag behind hospitalizations, which lag behind cases. Do we have any idea what this country could look like come Christmas time?
MARK MCCLELLAN, FORMER COMMISSIONER, FOOD AND DRUG ADMINISTRATION: It could get significantly worse. Dr. Gupta talked about the trends that we are seeing now in cases and hospitalizations. Deaths are going to follow that. Hospitalizations are going to go up further.
Trevor Bedford, an expert on projecting cases estimates that we could see 200,000 more deaths if we stay on the course that we are on now. Now the problem is, that we've got these outbreaks these hot spot areas where we are approaching health system capacity, really, all over the country now. It's not just one part of the country or region.
And Don, as you said, it's, this is something that we can work on. There are more tests available that can help detect these outbreaks earlier, that the Trump administration is actually taking some steps to increase, there are a new treatment that's going to prove, an antibody treatment for people, if they get treated at an early stage, that we can make it more widely available.
And all of the steps that we've just been talking about, around masks and distancing, which could be implemented locally to help slow down the spread. So, these are all steps we could take to help get through the next couple of very tough months.
LEMON: Dr. Gupta, you know, there's some very good news on the vaccine front. At least with the, what we know so far. When will people be able to start getting vaccinated and how long until we can return to some sense of normalcy?
GUPTA: Yes. Well, that's a, that's a question that everybody wants to know, Don. I mean, you know, to be fair, I think that there will be some vaccine possibly going out before the end of the year. I mean, you know, we still have to see if these vaccines get authorized, but they look very promising, Don, and you know, it's nice to have good news as you are eluding to, we didn't know if these vaccines are going to work.
I mean, the fact that they work over 90 percent, they are 90 percent effective against COVID is really a big deal. I think healthcare workers are likely to be getting vaccinated first, because we got to make sure that these hospital systems don't crumble apart. If you have significant outbreaks among healthcare providers that could be an additional problem on top of all these hospitalizations.
But I would say for the general public, you sort of do the math here. And you know, these are two doses per person. If you say you have 200 million doses, for example, by April timeframe, that's 100 million people, roughly, you know. And you are talking 30, 40, million doses a month after that, depending on their production.
So, I would say, you know, summer time, you know, general public starts to be able to get these vaccines at their pharmacies, calling up their doctors offices and making, you know, scheduling those appointments I would say around the late spring, early summer.
LEMON: Yes. And it's just because it comes out, let's say before the end of the year as you were saying, just to make it clear, doesn't mean that all people are going to start to get them right away. It takes time for it to be administered, and it doesn't mean that it is the panacea or the cure all for this.
What we need to do now, wear masks, socially distance, and even if there's a vaccine that comes out, am I wrong?
GUPTA: No, absolutely.
LEMON: OK. GUPTA: And you know, I mean, I think even, even for a period of time after people get vaccinated, you know, you are not going get to the herd immunity that you talk about for some time. So that maybe important, I think life can feel pretty normal except for the masks and things like that but eventually even those won't be necessary I think as we bring numbers down to a very low level.
LEMON: Dr. McClellan, you used to be the FDA commissioner with at least two major vaccines on track, on the right track now, how will we make enough and who will decide who can get the vaccine first? Take us behind the distribution. How does this work?
MCCLELLAN: Well the next step, if, is for the companies that have these very promising early results to send them in to the FDA, the FDA staff will review them write up their own written review, which will be reviewed by an independent expert panel. We've already met once and laid out some of their expectations.
[22:29:56]
If that goes well, then the next step is for the Centers for Disease Control with another independent expert advisory group to lay out who they think would be most likely to benefit.
And Don, it's likely to be frontline healthcare workers who face a lot of risk from exposure to the virus as well as people who are older, living in nursing homes, and other facilities that have been really hard hit, and are at very big risk of complications.
And as Dr. Gupta said, it's probably going to be a gradual process, a staged process over a matter of months. There's not going to be one day when you know, the light switch is going to go on and everybody is going to be immune.
But we should do a gradually better and better job of containing spread of avoiding hospitalizations and moving beyond the pandemic in the months to come. But we have got a couple of tough months to get through first.
LEMON: Doctors, we need some rest, we need, we are going to need you, so get some rest. And yes, we all need rest. But so, you got -- thank you so much, I appreciate both of you. I'll see you soon.
MCCLELLAN: Thank you.
LEMON: So, one Republican senator telling CNN the president can say whatever he wants. And most of the GOP seems to have that same attitude. But Trump lost, so, what is his end game? Anthony Scaramucci is going to tell us, next.
[22:35:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON (on camera): Yet, another blow to the president's hopes that the courts will somehow overturn President-elect Biden's victory. Lawsuits brought by Trump supporters now withdrawn in the battleground states of Wisconsin, Michigan, and Pennsylvania. Those lawsuits failing because, well, you've heard of junk science, right?
A lot of these are junk law. Joining me now to discuss is former White House communications director Anthony Scaramucci. Anthony, good to see you. Thank you, sir.
ANTHONY SCARAMUCCI, FORMER WHITE HOUSE COMMUNICATIONS DIRECTOR: Good to be here, Don.
LEMON: I've been saying that I want the crystal ball that Anthony Scaramucci has because he's right on about a lot of these. I think it was two years ago, you tell me what was going to happen. I don't know if you're just lucky or good.
But let's talk about these bogus lawsuits, Anthony. Falling like dominos really. But the president is still in denial. He is pushing these lies. He knows he's lost. What is the end game?
SCARAMUCCI: Well, it's a combination of three things and again, I'm probably more lucky than good. But, you know, studying the legal cases, there's no real standing on any of these legal cases, which is why every sophisticated lawyer is dropping out. Even his current lawyer in Pennsylvania had said, a few weeks ago that there was no standing but I guess he is taking the case for publicity purposes.
But the president has got three pieces to his end game right now. Raise money, they've got to continue to pay down debt and they need money for their forward operations, and so in the footnotes, please come and help me and raise money.
Number two, he wants to see if he can flex and exert power in the Republican Party. He is practicing that right now with tweets about Governor DeWine in Ohio and he is seeing if he can exert some pressure in Georgia. He wants to see if he has any political legs after January 20th.
And then the third reason is he is paralyzed with fear, because he's got a whole host of investigations coming and he's got a ton of debt that he's got outstanding, and God only knows how much he has made from inside the administration. He may not be able to use the money that he's made from inside the administration to pay off that debt.
So those are the three things that are going on right now, and, but he is only as powerful as his willing accomplices, Don.
LEMON: Yes.
SCARAMUCCI: Because the way demagogues are they got to have people like Lindsey Graham that will do anything and kowtow to them. And trust me, the president is always surprised by it. I've been on the plane with him where he has sycophants around him, and he gives a big smirk and like can you believe that this guy is doing this? Can you believe that this guy is my lap dog?
And so, he actually has disdain for these people. So, I just give that shoutout to all the Republicans that are out there, you know, begging like dogs trying to do his every whim. Wake up. I mean, it's just totally nonsensical. He is going on January 20th, no one is going to stop that.
And his political power is going to dissipate very quickly because associated with that political power, Don, is a whole ton of anger and most people can't stay angry that long. Maybe President Trump can, but the rest of the country is moving on. We have to solve the COVID-19 crisis and we have to repair the economy. And as we do that, we'll realize how abysmal he was and how badly he malpractice inside the presidency.
LEMON: You really think that one of those concerns is legal fear after he is out of office, you said that was one?
SCARAMUCCI: There's no question, because remember, that is a variable he cannot control. He doesn't have his arms --
LEMON: Got it.
SCARAMUCCI: -- around what's going on in the state of New York or the city.
LEMON: So, I got to ask you about this. Georgia's Republican secretary of state saying that he is getting pressure from top Republicans to question legally cast votes even by Senator Lindsey Graham saying that, and the president is hate tweeting him. Graham denies it. But this is beyond outrageous. I mean, think about it if this is indeed the case.
SCARAMUCCI: Well I hope it's not the case. You know, I'm a rule of law person, so everybody is presumed innocent before proven guilty. But geez, I mean, that's terrible. It likely has to be investigated. You have the secretary of state of Georgia a fellow Republican on CNN airways making the accusation, so hopefully that's enough to trigger an investigation.
But here's the thing I will say, is Republican fundraisers of which I used to be one, are growing tired of this nonsense. And so there's a group of Republican operatives that are actually trying to help the Republican Party in Georgia that doesn't -- that do not understand what they are doing and are sending messages to the governor in Georgia and people like Lindsey Graham to knock it off. You are embarrassing the country. You are embarrassing the Republican Party.
And there are like erstwhile business people with really good reputations that are trying to raise money in that Senate race that you are making it almost impossible to do that.
[22:40:02]
So, stop listening to President Trump would be the message from very smart business people that are still Republicans.
LEMON: Yes, and even Joe Biden saying this was more embarrassing for the country than debilitating his ability to get started. So, you know, you guys are on the same page as well.
Anthony, it's always a pleasure. It's good to see you. Take care of yourself.
SCARAMUCCI: Good to be here, Don.
LEMON: Thank you.
SCARAMUCCI: Thank you.
LEMON: President Obama has got a lot to say. He's got a new book. He is giving a bunch of interviews and up next, what he says about the state of this country. The division, the vitriol and Donald Trump.
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LEMON (on camera): So, the former President Barack Obama weighing in on President Trump and the division in America in a series of interviews knocking his successor for his refusal to concede.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
OBAMA: When your time is up, then it is your job to put the country first. And think beyond your own ego and your own interests and your own disappointments.
My advice to President Trump is if you want, at this late stage in the game to be remembered as somebody who put country first, it's time for you to do the same thing.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON (on camera): President Obama also weighing in on how his own presidency triggered a backlash, telling the Atlantic this. What I think is indisputable is that I signified a shift in power. Just my mere presence worried folks, in some cases explicitly, in some cases subconsciously. And then there were folks around to exploit that and tap in to that.
If a Fox News talking head asks when Michelle and I dap, give each other a fist bump, is that a terrorist fist bump? That's not a particularly subtle reference.
Joining me now is Peniel Joseph, professor of history at the University of Texas at Austin. Good to see you, professor, thank you so much.
PENIEL JOSEPH, PROFESSOR OF HISTORY, UNIVERSITY OF TEXAS AT AUSTIN: Thank you for having me, Don.
LEMON: So, the former President Barack Obama is hitting the theme of division in all of his interviews and he is talking a lot about race. Does he feel free now to speak in a way that he wasn't before, do you think?
JOSEPH: Yes, I think so, Don. I think this is Obama unbound, Obama unleashed a lot of supporters wanted to see him speak this candidly as president. He felt that he couldn't. That it would really disrupt his ability to lead us out of the Great Recession and to be the commander in chief.
But now that he has finished his term, his two terms and the Trump White House has really sow so much racial division for four years I think in his new memoir and in interviews he is being much more candid about race, but he is still sticking to really the optimistic vision that we actually are not red states and blue states.
And at his core, Obama really believes in American exceptionalism for all of that concept shortcomings and at times its successes.
LEMON: You know, he is now saying with a lot of authority what many people have been saying about this president. That Trump is, is at the root cause of America's division. He is a symptom, he is an accelerant, is racial resentment really at the core of all this turmoil?
JOSEPH: Well I think racial resentment connected to our history of racial cast in the United States, Don. I think what racial slavery does, and of course, Isabel Wilkerson has a brilliant new book called "Caste" he's create --
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: Over your left shoulder there by the way, but go on.
JOSEPH: Yes, it creates this super structure this hierarchy where white people are at the top of that hierarchy, black people at the bottom, and in between, whether we're going to say it's indigenous or Latin-X or Asian, South Asian -- people are trying to jockey for position and whiteness is connected to a supply chain of power and prestige in this country and blackness is connected to the supply chain usually of misery and grief.
And so, when we think about racial resentment when people say look, he is a socialist, he is a Muslim, what they mean is that not only is he black but he may take some privilege. Some access, some power away from me. Even if his economic policies were trying to help all people.
LEMON: So, Obama is scathing in his assessment of Trump, but also of Republicans, who say that just, you know, they just cave to Trump's brand of populism. So, what's going to change when Trump is gone, is anything going to change?
JOSEPH: Well, I think a lot can change, Don, I have been saying since May 25th in the George Floyd protests that we all as Americans have this generational opportunity to defeat systemic racism, eradicate white supremacy and finally achieve our country.
And I think that one of the things that the last four years had shown us, is that words matter. Certainly, words backed up by deeds but words matter. So, having a president who really pushed back against civil rights, who aligned himself with white nationalists and white supremacists really embodied some of the ugliest behavior that we've ever seen in our country, no just law enforcement but everyone.
So, I think the first order of business for Biden and Harris is to offer a unifying vision that centers racial justice, that centers treating people with deep empathy and with deep kindness and that really calls us to an aspirational kind of citizenship.
And we've done this before. January 6, 1941 Franklin D. Roosevelt gave his brilliant for freedom speech. And he talks about freedom of religion, freedom of speech, freedom from fear, freedom from hunger.
[22:49:57]
And then on March 15th, 1965, Lyndon Johnson gave a soaring, we shall overcome speech to a joint congressional address saying that it was time because of the dignity of man and destiny of democracy to have voting rights for all people.
So, we have done it before and I think the first order of business is this idea of saying, this is the best of who we are, instead of cultivating the worst aspects of our history, but we're going to have confront those worst aspects. We can't have reconciliation on the cheat.
We need deep structural changes. We need deep political transformation. But I think when you call Americans to collaborative leadership and consensus building and saying the United States of America is about multi culturalism, it's about multi racialism, it's about folks who are LGBTQIA and folks who are Muslim and non-able body the neuro diverse and black and queer and women.
Once you call us all together, I think people respond in big ways and I think we need to look at this election as the glass half full instead of the glass half empty. Having Biden/Harris first black woman South Asian vice-presidential elect and Joe Biden win was a victory for anti-racism, was a victory for social justice, was a victory for people who believe in a better country.
LEMON: Well, I want to thank you for appearing on the show and I hope you will come back. Thank you so much, professor.
JOSEPH: Thank you, Don.
LEMON: I really appreciate it. And by the way, what he talked about and also Isabel Wilkerson the book "Caste", it's all on my podcast. It's exactly what we talked about. Silence is Not an Option. You can get it wherever you download and listen to podcasts. We'll be right back.
[22:55:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON (on camera): Americans are divided by race. The current president has wielded racism as a political cudgel. Years marked by tension, unrest, and, unfortunately, a surge in hate crimes. Today the FBI releasing new data showing that reports of hate crimes
in America rose again in 2019 to the highest levels in more than a decade since 2008. The murders classified as hate crimes, more than doubled from 2018 to 2019.
The FBI also reporting that bias against African-Americans overwhelmingly makes up the largest category of reported hate crime offenses pertaining to race. I really hope that the arc of moral universe -- of the moral universe bends back towards justice.
We'll be right back.
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