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Don Lemon Tonight

Biden And Harris To Receive National Security Briefing Tomorrow; More Than 73,000 Americans Hospitalized With COVID-19; Biden Slams Scott Atlas For Rise Up Tweet; Esper Memo Warned Conditions Weren't Met For Withdrawal From Afghanistan; Biden Saying Once We Shut Down The Virus, We Can Start To Build Back Better Than Before; More Schools Switch To Remote Learning As COVID-19 Surges; President Trump Puts Rudy Giuliani In Charge Of Post-Election Legal Fight. Aired 11p- 12a ET

Aired November 16, 2020 - 23:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[23:00:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DON LEMON, CNN HOST (on camera): Breaking news tonight. President- Elect Joe Biden, Vice President-Elect Kamala Harris are set to receive a national security briefing tomorrow.

A historic warning from Biden who says more Americans may die from COVID-19 as President Trump refuses to accept the outcome of the election and work with Biden's transition team. Biden saying Trump's hampering the incoming administration's ability to rapidly get a vaccine out to millions of Americans.

Also tonight, more than 73,000 Americans are hospitalized with COVID. That is a record number. Let's discuss now. CNN's senior political analyst, John Avlon and Kirsten Powers are both here. Political reporter for The New York Times Astead Herndon joins us as well. Good evening one and all. Good to see you.

JOHN AVLON, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: Hey, Don.

Kirsten, I'm going to start with you. You know, the President-Elect Biden very pointed today warning more people may die from the pandemic if the Trump administration keeps blocking his transition. The president seems -- he seems more focused on fighting the election outcome than this deadly virus. Where does that leave us?

KIRSTEN POWERS, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Right. Well, I mean, he hasn't taken it seriously at any given point, so he continues to do the same thing. You know, what future President Biden, President-Elect Biden was saying today I think is exactly right. I mean, people's lives are at stake.

I mean, you said earlier in the last hour, you know, there are people that are watching right now that may not be alive because of the behavior of this president by the end of this year. And we just cannot stress enough how harmful this is and how unprecedented it is that you would have an administration absolutely refusing to allow the future president of the United States to have access to the information that he needs so that there can be a really good roll out of the new vaccines.

LEMON (on camera): Listen, I don't think it gets any clearer and specifically pointed as Biden calling out Trump's adviser, Dr. Scott Atlas were telling people to rise up against Michigan Governor's Whitmer's -- her new COVID restrictions. Listen and then we'll discuss.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE BIDEN (D), 2020 PRESIDENT-ELECT OF THE UNITED STATES: In addition to the folks who have already been leading like the Governor of Michigan, I mean, you know, the idea that the president's now existing remaining adviser on COVID is saying that they should resist. What the hell is the matter with these guys? What is the matter with them? Resist?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON (on camera): So, Astead, this is for you. Dr. Atlas says that he wasn't trying to incite violence but his comments are incredibly dangerous. To Biden's point, what is the matter with these guys?

ASTEAD HERNDON, NATIONAL POLITICAL REPORTER, NEW YORK TIMES: Listen, if I had the answer for that I wouldn't be sitting here. This perplexing to know why Dr. Atlas and those who the president has surrounded himself with will not acknowledge the reality of the virus. They are invested in massaging the president's ego, invested in trying to tell a story that is untrue about the reality of this public health situation and of the election last week.

And I think these things are intertwined for this administration to admit the reality and severity of the virus would also be to admit their own flaws in handling it throughout the last year. And that is something that they are unwilling to do, both from the president on down and his advisers and folks surrounding him are unwilling to cross that -- or unwilling to cross him.

And so I think that that leaves us in the place where Americans are hurt. Where people in the public health response is devastated by that reality. And that is what President-Elect Biden is trying to say. The task before him is huge. He not only has to -- as coming in with a mandate to get control of this, but has to do so with an outgoing administration that is not only unwilling to help him do that, but is unwilling to acknowledge the reality of the public health situation that we're in.

LEMON: John Avlon, so the President-Elect, Vice President-Elect Harris, President-Elect Biden, Vice President-Elect Harris, they're going to get a national security briefing tomorrow but he hasn't been getting the classified security briefing and they aren't being fully briefed on COVID measures either. So, you know, it is not a full on --

[23:05:15]

AVLON: No.

LEMON: Right. The big briefing that they should be getting. How long can this go on, John?

AVLON: I mean, it could go on until inauguration day I suppose. I mean, look, you know, the Trump administration made it very clear they are going to drag their feet on confronting reality. The reality is at some point when the electors meet on the 14th there will be a process in place that cannot be denied by the president's pick.

The GSA is going to have to start opening doors. He is going to have to start getting briefings. But this is precious time lost. The 9/11 commission made it clear that their national security implications to delayed transitions.

And this is happening in the middle of a pandemic when President-Elect Biden is likely to take the oath of office in the middle of a window in which by some estimates we could see another 200,000 Americans die between now and March.

So, this is mission critical and it is just another sign of how hyper partisanship not only makes us stupid but it can really hurt people. It is hurting people right now.

LEMON: Yes. Kirsten, I just -- I'm going to read this. This is from Max Boot, he summed up President Trump's inaction in the Washington Post. And here's what Max says, he says, Trump could not be doing more damage if he were consciously attempting to sabotage the U.S. government.

For the record, I don't believe that he is deliberately burning everything down on his way out the door to punish Americans for rejecting him. He is merely salving his ego and his heedless of the causes as always. But it wouldn't look much different if he were.

Why is he fighting to keep a job that shows no interest -- he shows no interest in performing? Here's a question from Max. So, my question from me is, what is the end game here, Kirsten?

POWERS: Well, you know, I was actually about to say, so I guess I disagree with Max a little bit. I do think part of this is him trying to sabotage. I think that it's partly him and his ego and needing to be the center of the attention.

LEMON: You think he is trying to burn the House down on his way out? That's what it looks like.

POWERS: Yes, I think he is trying to harm Biden. I think he is trying to make things more difficult for him. He doesn't want, he doesn't obviously doesn't care about the country. I think that's been well established. I mean, anybody who cares about the country would not be doing what he is doing right now.

At some point most people even, you know, people who crave power do ultimately put the country ahead of their own needs in a situation like this one when you've lost an election. He doesn't care. He wants to continue to create division. He wants to continue to burn down the House which is what he's been doing this entire time.

So, but I do think part of it is he wants to -- he wants it to be hard for Biden. He wants Biden to have trouble governing.

LEMON: On top of losing, John, President Trump is in the White House watching TV nonstop. And who is he seeing all over? The former president Barack Obama? Do you think Obama feels vindicated helping to make Trump a one-term president? Because you know they tried, they said hey. We're going to make Obama a one-term president. Turns out Obama is a two-term president. Trump is a one-termer

AVLON: Look, I think Obama actually thinks a little bigger than his personal impact on Donald Trump but it is fascinating to think of Donald Trump --

LEMON: You know it kind of feels good. Come on now.

(LAUGHTER)

AVLON: Look, I mean, sure. And you saw how much fun he was having on the campaign trail. But you see the president in this kind of shame spiral. You know, tweeting, watching TV. Presumably there's some fast food on the side. This isn't quite the last days of Nixon but it is probably not a portrait of a particularly happy human being.

LEMON: Yes. You guys follow. I don't follow him. I just, you know, read the news that I have to. When I (inaudible), you know, I can't. It is way too much and my life is much better because of it.

Astead, listen, I know you said earlier that you have better things to do and that you didn't want to be here with us. But I got to ask you another question. I want to get to the Republican Secretary of State in Georgia, Brad Raffensperger, OK? He is saying that he is getting pressured by prominent Republicans like Lindsey Graham to question the validity of legally cast absentee ballots. What do you think? I mean, he explained it to Wolf Blitzer earlier. By the way, Graham is denying it, but go on.

HERNDON: I mean, this is a kind of shocking accusation that are coming from the Secretary of State but I think it is in line with what we've seen from Republicans nationally. Just to consider the extraordinary situation that we're in. This is a Republican Secretary of State, a kind of tried and true conservative in Georgia.

Who was handpicked by Brian Kemp who beat Stacey Abrams a couple years ago in that gubernatorial race and he is under fire from his own party, because he is unwilling to go to support unfounded, unsupported conspiratorial claims of voter fraud that are being done in the service of only President Trump.

He has had both Republican Senators who are up in those run-offs states try to pressure that Secretary of State. He is now saying that he has experienced pressure from members of the Senate Judiciary Committee. Folks like Lindsey Graham. And I think this builds into a larger kind of infighting among Republicans that we're going to see going forward. [23:10:16]

You have the specter of Donald Trump that remains so politically important that Republicans cannot get rid of him but you still have the reality of his loss and you have a reality of a changing party that is still ahead of them. The Secretary of State is saying he will not bend to those demands but he is pushing back against a party that is still under the grip of Donald Trump even in a loss.

LEMON: All right. Thank you all. I appreciate it. See you soon.

AVLON: Take care, man.

LEMON: So, I want to turn now to former NATO Supreme Allied Commander General Wesley Clark.

General, good to see you. Thank you so much for joining again. So, let's talk about some of my colleagues' reporting, Jake Tapper reporting that now fired Defense Secretary Mark Esper warned the White House earlier this month that the unanimous consensus of the chain of command is that conditions hadn't been met for troop withdrawal in Afghanistan. Does that answer the question of why he was fired?

WESLEY CLARK, FORMER NATO SUPREME ALLIED COMMANDER GENERAL: Well, I don't think that's the full answer but I think that might be part of the answer. Look, the situation in Afghanistan, Don, has been problematic since really the fall of the Taliban in late 2001. We went in there without a strategy to get Osama Bin Laden out. We didn't really know what to do after the Taliban government fell.

We set up Hamid Karzai who was associated with India. Which infuriated Pakistan. We never dealt successfully with (inaudible). Our military guys (inaudible) we fought the same war, they go over there one-year tourist is the same one-year of war fought 18 times. Now we're trying to do the negotiations. We lack the military leverage. We lack the ability to deal with Pakistan.

So, you know, when the joint chiefs and the Secretary of Defense tell the president look don't pull troops out. It doesn't meet the conditions we set. They are absolutely right. There is no assurance we'll ever get those conditions met because the Taliban are rolling up the government forces in various provinces. It's going to be an ugly situation no matter whether you pull the troops out now or you wait until President Biden takes over and it becomes his problem.

So, if you pull out half the troops now and you give people warnings that it goes over a period of a month you'll do damage. But it's going to be an ugly ending in all probability no matter what.

LEMON: So, is President Trump doing the right thing now?

CLARK: I don't think he's done the right thing from the beginning but this is the military trying to salvage what they can out of a negotiated, honorable exit. So, it's not a -- doesn't look like a complete collapse. We need to keep sufficient forces there to gather intelligence, to strike at terrorist cells. The Taliban has not delivered on cutting its ties with Al Qaeda and we need to have the force on hand to physically cut those ties if necessary.

They know better than I do sitting here. They're worried when he cuts it below 4,000. I understand their worries and I sympathize with them, but I'm here to say that this is going to get ugly. We are committed to pulling everything out by May of 2021.

It is going to be ugly because the Taliban are not going to suddenly, you know, give up their arms and embrace the government as blood brothers. They want power. Pakistan wants them to have power. This is really about Pakistan and India.

LEMON: General, I just want to get your reaction to this New York Times story. The New York Times reporting that Trump asked senior advisers last week if they had options to take action against Iran's main nuclear site in the coming weeks. Are you concerned about the president that he may do, what he may do before January 20th?

CLARK: I am concerned. Because that's no rational policy. First of all if you take action against that strike you're going to get retaliate against some (inaudible) -- you are going to get retaliation of some type. Secondly, there is no assurance you can really eliminate the site. Third, that they're going to come back and rebuild underground and it really is problematic for the Biden administration. So, I think it's a really bad policy if we strike Iran right now.

LEMON: General, always a pleasure. Thank you, sir.

CLARK: Thank you.

LEMON (on camera): With the virus raging the current president wants you to think that we've got to choose between the virus and the economy but the truth is we can't get a handle on the economy until we get a handle on the virus. That as President-Elect Biden is warning Americans we may have a very tough holiday season ahead of us.

[23:15:04]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BIDEN: Look. I just want to make sure that we're able to be together next Thanksgiving. Next Christmas. I mean, it is an international crisis. It is an international health crisis and the idea -- we're at war with the virus.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON (on camera): So coronavirus cases spiking across the country as the economy craters. President-Elect Biden addressing the crisis today.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BIDEN: We wanted to get the economy back on track, we need our workers to be back on the job by getting the virus under control. We're going in a very dark winter. Things are going to get much tougher before they get easier. That requires sparing no effort to fight COVID, so we can open our businesses safely, resume our lives, and put this pandemic behind us. Once we shut down the virus and deliver economic relief to workers and businesses then we can start to build back better than before.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[23:20:10]

LEMON (on camera): Joining me now is Kevin Hassett, he is a former chair of the White House Council of Economic Advisers and Robert Reich, the former labor secretary under President Clinton.

Gentlemen, it's so good to see both of you. Thank you so much for appearing.

Secretary Reich, I am going to start with you. Biden is making the point that the country's economic success is tied to fighting COVID, tied to fighting the coronavirus. That is not one or the other. Is that the approach that the Trump administration has taken in the case that it is either one or the other?

ROBERT REICH, FORMER LABOR SECRETARY UNDER PRESIDENT CLINTON: Unfortunately, Don, that does seem to be the principle that the Trump administration has used. And as you have pointed out it is certainly not one or the other. In fact, it is impossible for this economy to do well as long as the virus is surging because obviously people are going to not go into restaurants and shops even of their own, even if there were not lockdowns.

Workers are not going to be as readily available. The economy as a whole is going to be under greater and greater stress and on top of that if Congress does not pass emergency legislation to provide disaster relief essentially additional unemployment insurance for people then we are going to even be in a deeper fix and have a worse economic problem.

LEMON (on camera): Kevin, the decision to close some schools or learned remotely, as parents really in turmoil balancing safety against the need to work. This is what -- I want you to listen to what HSS Secretary Alex Azar said about school closings.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ALEX AZAR, U.S. SECRETARY OF HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES: It's ridiculous to close our schools. It is not driven by science and data or evidence. Schools K-12, universities, these are not major vectors of disease transmission. Our work places are not. Our airlines are not. It is indoor gatherings where we let our guard down, don't wear a masks. Don't keep social distance.

And our Governors keep going after our schools and our kids. And there is real harm to our kids, their mental health, their physical health, their emotional wellbeing. We shouldn't be closing our schools.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON (on camera): OK. Listen. Science and data part, you know, I don't know. No one wants the schools to be closed. Kids should be in schools. For months we have heard from the president that we needed to open up businesses to save the economy but should schools have been the priority all along?

KEVIN HASSETT, CNN ECONOMICS COMMENTATOR, CHAIR, WHITE HOUSE COUNCIL OF ECONOMIC ADVISERS: You know, I think it is a fair question, Don. And if you look at Europe they've pretty much kept their schools open throughout these whole episode and they've done it. I think precisely because of what Secretary Azar was emphasizing that, you know, the mental health problems for kids that are stuck at home and all the scariness of the disease and everything.

It is something that I think teachers, professional teachers could probably deal a lot better with than parents who were trapped in a little house with their kids for, you know, month after month. And so I do absolutely think that schools should be open. But I think Secretary Azar is something that he has been emphasizing for a long time too.

LEMON: Yes. But also, I mean, think about it though, it is -- we are its kind of Monday morning quarterbacking here, because no one knew in the beginning --

HASSETT: Sure.

LEMON: -- you know, if you sent kids back to school if they were going to wear masks, if they were going to socially distant, if it was going to spread. So, I understand that. But this time around there seems to be some data there saying that kids do -- can follow the guidelines and they can actually go back to school. Which they should be in school.

So Secretary Reich, you tweeted about this earlier. And here's what you said, Europeans are responding to the latest COVID-19 outbreak by closing restaurants, bars, and other businesses but keeping schools open. The U.S. is mostly doing the opposite. Or doing opposite as you said, I want to quote you correctly. Americans are arguing about how many people can work out at the gym while kids are stuck at home. Has the U.S. approach been wrong headed shall I say all along?

REICH: Well, we haven't done a very good job. Let's put it that way. In fact, if you compare the United States in the spring when it was the surge -- the first time that COVID was surging and then now when the resurgence is even larger in many respects, the United States has come in behind almost everybody else in terms of successfully containing this.

And what many other countries, it's not just Europe but also in Asia and also you find New Zealand, what they are doing is they are shutting down businesses in order to prevent people from unnecessarily contacting each other, contracting the disease, and the virus, and passing it on. And that's been good for businesses over the longer term. I think that is the most important point. It's not that you're closing the economy. It is that you are actually taking steps that will maintain and enlarge the economy over the longer term. We should have learned that already and we didn't.

LEMON: Yeah. Kevin, listen. I've been saying all along if we had more buy-in from the public, if from the top folks had said wear a mask or socially distance or that is real, do you think that -- couldn't we be somewhere close to as normal as we can get if people would just wear a mask and follow the guidelines?

[23:25:10]

HASSETT: Well, I think, Don, you might remember that even, you know, back in the spring when I was back in the White House I was waving my mask at everybody because, you know, the mask even back then, you know, maybe it didn't help, you know, we didn't really know back then but it has very little cost to wear a mask. And so of course everybody should wear a mask.

The thing that I really think though is, if you look at where we are right now, I want to circle back to something that Vice President Biden said or President-Elect Biden and Secretary Rice said and that is that we really do need a stimulus right now, because the good news today really, Don was that there is a vaccine break through. There are two vaccine breakthroughs.

And there is a vaccine coming next year. And what that means is that it is prudent for everybody to just sort of hunker down a little bit more. And so I expect the economic data is going to go pretty south for a couple months before people start to pick up again. And we need to get businesses, the cash that they need to survive and people, the cash they need to survive between now and when we can really get going because there is a vaccine.

And so, absolutely I think that vice president was right today, he emphasize that we need a stimulus, we need a stimulus maybe just a stop-gap into next year when the new Congress can take it up with perhaps the new president. But the fact is that Secretary Rice and the vice president correct that because COVID is raging out of control right now and precisely because people are waiting for a vaccine and should hunker down, we need to do something to give people a bridge until say March or April.

LEMON: Well, I think you are both right. Especially what you said there. There is a light at the end of the tunnel but we need to hunker down to get there. And we can -- and to get there with as few deaths as possible. As few people getting sick as possible. So, I appreciate both of you and the advice and the expertise that you brought tonight. I appreciate and I'll see you both soon. Be safe.

HASSETT: Thank you.

REICH: Thanks, Don.

LEMON (on camera): What happens when a person leading the country's coronavirus task force won't wear a mask though? Even in a coronavirus task force meeting in a small room indoors? A lot of people follow his example instead of the experts, right? But we're going to go to the experts here. Doctors on the front lines of the virus tell me what they're experiencing as Dr. Fauci says science is the answer.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ANTHONY FAUCI, DIRECTOR, NATIONAL INSTITUTE OF ALLERGY AND INFECTIOUS DISEASE: When you have a pandemic outbreak like this, science is ultimately going to get us out of it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

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[23:30:00]

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LEMON (on camera): So, tonight, the United States is breaking another record in the battle against COVID-19. More than 73,000 people are hospitalized with the virus. COVID-19 rates are trending upward in 45 states. And tonight, three doctors are with me to talk about all of this.

Dr. Nathan Hatton is the pulmonary and critical care physician in Salt Lake City. His state, Utah, by the way, is seeing an increase in cases. The positivity rate there is more than 19 percent.

CNN Medical Analyst, Dr. Megan Ranney joins me from -- she joins me from Long Island, where the positivity rate is just over six percent.

And Dr. Brian Williams is co-director of the Surgical Intensive Care Unit at the University of Chicago. The positivity rate in Illinois is more than 12 percent.

Rhode Island. Excuse me. What did I say? Did I say Illinois? Yeah, Long Island. Sorry. Rhode Island. I can't get Long Island. You know, New Yorker. Everything looks like Long Island even if it is Rhode Island. Thank you. I apologize for that.

Dr. Hatton, I'm going to start with you. Utah is in pretty bad shape with this virus, and you are working shifts 12 to 24 hours, sometimes even 36 hours, I'm told. Tell us what it is like when you go to work right now.

NATHAN HATTON, PULMONARY AND CRITICAL CARE PHYSICIAN: It is incredibly busy right now. We have opened up extra ICU space throughout our hospital system. I have more COVID patients in our hospital today than I actually have normal ICU beds that sort of help manage in our medical intensive care unit.

So we are sort of already out of bounds, so to speak, in terms of the number of patients that we have in our hospital and sort of flexed up to sort of care for them.

LEMON: Oh, my goodness. Can you just -- can you quickly compare this to what was going on when we were at the height of it or at the start of this back in --

HATTON: Yeah.

LEMON: -- March, April, and May?

HATTON: Yeah. Luckily for Utah, we didn't really have a first surge. We were protected. We shut everything down very quickly. And so this is really sort of our second surge.

LEMON: Mm-hmm.

HATTON: So compared to July, we had, you know, sort of average day of about 700 cases per day. Now, we're at about 3,000, 4,000 cases per day.

LEMON: My goodness.

HATTON: So, you know, we're eclipsing sort of our summer values by three and fourfold right now and no sort of peaking in sight unfortunately.

LEMON: Oh, frightening. Dr. Ranney, what is the scene like inside your hospital in Providence? What are your colleagues feeling right now?

MEGAN RANNEY, CNN MEDICAL ANALYST: Honestly, Don, my colleagues not just in Rhode Island but across the country are exhausted. We have been fighting this virus for months now. We have been making our way through with limited personal protective equipment. We have been out on the front lines talking about how to stop transmission of the virus.

And yet here we are in the fall exactly where we did not want to be, seeing our emergency departments, our hospitals, and our ICUS fill up with really sick patients.

And the thing that's different now as opposed to the spring is it is not just the sick COVID-19 patients. It is also all the other patients who put off their care in the spring. So the patients with end stage cancer, the patients with side effects of strokes or who put off their elective surgeries for too long until it became an emergency.

[23:34:58]

RANNEY: So we're simultaneously filled up with patients who are sick for a lot of other really normal reasons and all of these really sick COVID patients. There is just nowhere left to put them.

I have friends in other states being told to use neonatal care ICU beds and pediatric ICU beds for adult patients. It is ridiculous, right, and we shouldn't be in this spot in the United States.

LEMON: Oh, my gosh. Dr. Williams, I'm going to get around all of you but -- I mean, listen to the two doctors before you. I mean, this is unbelievable. It seems like so much of the conversations we were having back in the spring because Illinois is another state where cases are surging. Chicago, where you are, has new restrictions in place. What is your biggest concern for your hospital with this new surge, doctor?

BRIAN WILLIAMS, CO-DIRECTOR OF SURGICAL INTENSIVE CARE UNIT, UNIVERSITY OF CHICAGO: It is deja vu all over again to use, an old cliche. But University of Chicago, we learned a lot from the first surge earlier this spring and we are using that knowledge to prepare for it. The surge is already here, yet to peak, so it will get worse.

We're seeing -- our hospitalizations are up 154 percent this month across the state of Illinois. That is reflected within the city of Chicago. But our hospital, some of my surgeon colleagues, they had developed what is called the medically necessary and time sensitive score for surgery.

So, elective surgeries that Dr. Ranney discussed were put off earlier. We can triage to decide who needs to go now and who can wait. So, hernia repair can probably wait versus a cancer operation.

We've also put in place a triage score for ICU resources to ensure that we can minimize bias in deciding who gets these critical resources as the hospital systems become stressed because we have to consider all of this through the lens of health equity as we move forward because there will be the haves and the have nots and you cannot leave the have nots behind as the surge peaks.

LEMON (on camera): I got so much I want to ask, but I want to play this and I want to get all of you to respond, OK? This is a clip of an emergency room nurse from South Dakota. She shares the disbelief that some of her patients have about this virus, including some that are dying.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JODI DOERING, ER NURSE: The hardest thing to watch is that people are still looking for something else and they want a magic answer and they don't want to believe that COVID is real. It wasn't one particular Patient. It's just a culmination of so many people.

And their last dying words are this can't be happening, it's not real. And when they should be spending time face timing their families, they are filled with anger and hatred. And it just made me really sad the other night. And I just can't believe that those are going to be their last thoughts and words.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON (on camera): OK. Do you -- Dr. Williams first. Do you experience that with patients you see?

WILLIAMS: I have not had experience with any of my patients so far.

LEMON: Mm-hmm.

WILLIAMS: And I will say that families and patients that are going through this, my experience, are devastated by what is happening, and I am not making those sorts of judgment calls at the end of life.

LEMON: Mm-hmm.

WILLIAMS: But I do agree that because of restrictions, there are times when families cannot be at the bedside and they are forced to say good-bye via video, if at all.

LEMON: Mm-hmm.

WILLIAMS: So that is disheartening as a health care provider to know that in this critical transition, patients are sometimes dying alone as a result of restrictions that were put in place to keep everyone safe in the hospital.

LEMON: Dr. Hatton, is that your experience, what the nurse said? Have you experienced that?

HATTON: No, we haven't really seen that sort of opposition to the virus. I think the bigger thing that we have seen at least here in Utah is some of the -- our health care providers will be at work in a very difficult situation, death and dying, severely ill patients, and then you sort of go to the grocery store and then you sort of see the other side where they don't really buy into what is going on.

And that is very emotionally fatiguing because it is almost like you live in these two different universes where you go to work and it is all these super sick patients, and then you walk out into your community and you see people just like normal, you know, back to how it was prior to the beginning of this pandemic. That is a huge stressor on all of us in the health care field right now.

LEMON: Yeah. You said that you were tired of walking out of an ICU where COVID-19 has killed another patient then walking into a grocery store and hearing people say that it doesn't exist. Who do you hold responsible for that?

HATTON: Well, I think there are lots of, you know, messaging and sort of -- I think we haven't been great with sort of bringing everybody back to a good message of this is what is going on and this is what we really need to do. We've really polarized this issue which has really caused a lot of pain and suffering in our society.

LEMON: Dr. Ranney, do you experience anything like what the nurse said?

[23:39:59]

RANNEY: I've not had patients deny that they have COVID, but I've certainly had patients resist wearing masks.

I would invite anyone to go on to any of the three of our Twitter feeds to see the orts of responses that we get when we talk about what we are seeing in our hospitals. People are calling us liars like we're making this up.

I would tell anyone to come in to the E.R. Honestly by the time folks make it into my emergency department, they are so sick that they're just desperate for me to do something to help them -- LEMON: Mm-hmm.

RANNEY: -- and they generally accept their diagnosis. But as Dr. Williams said, they have to do it alone, which is just the most tragic thing. You know, I am there dressed up in full personal protective equipment looking like an alien, spending as little time in the room as possible so I don't get sick, and they are sitting there deathly ill without the comfort of family that would normally be near them. I think that has been one of the toughest parts for us.

LEMON: I want to have you guys back, please. I know that you are very busy, but I think what you provide for the audience and for the country are very, very important. So if you can find the time, I want to have you guys back. Thank you so much. Please be safe. We appreciate what you do.

HATTON: Thank you.

WILLIAMS: Thank you. Stay safe.

LEMON: We'll be right back.

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[23:45:00]

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LEMON (on camera): President Trump is putting Rudy Giuliani in charge of his attempts to overturn the results of the election. But just like Trump, Giuliani is spotting a lot of nonsense and falsehoods.

More tonight from CNN's Investigative Correspondent Drew Griffin.

(BEGIN VIDEO TAPE)

DREW GRIFFIN, CNN SENIOR INVESTIGATIVE CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It would be laughable if this wasn't so dangerous.

RUDY GIULIANI, ATTORNEY TO PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP, FORMER NEW YORK CITY MAYOR: Start doing ballots like this.

GRIFFIN (voice-over): Rudy Giuliani on Fox Sunday spinning his latest false conspiracy theory about an American voting machine company, a bizarre take involving George Soros, votes being counted in Spain, and dead strongman Hugo Chavez.

GIULIANI: Company that has close, close ties with Venezuela and, therefore, China.

GRIFFIN (voice-over): False, truth, facts? They don't seem to matter to Giuliani, who is tweeting, posting on YouTube, showing up on far- right wing shows, spouting wildly false allegations even from the parking lot of a landscaping company next to an adult book store.

GIULIANI: Wow, what a beautiful day.

GRIFFIN (voice-over): His argument in Philadelphia that vote counters were purposely hiding ballots from Trump's poll watchers.

GIULIANI: Because many, many of them were fraudulent.

GRIFFIN (voice-over): Not true. This is the man President Trump has just put in charge of his legal challenges to Joe Biden's presidential win. A stack of lawsuits has already been thrown out or dropped, including nine in one day.

UNKNOWN: All of the cases, all of the cases are falling apart. He's going about continuing to file cases with no basis in court, just makes Donald Trump a loser more times.

GRIFFIN (voice-over): In a Pennsylvania lawsuit, a judge asked Trump's attorney, are you claiming that there is any fraud in connection with these disputed ballots? The Trump attorney admitted, no. Yet along with other Trump cronies, Giuliani keeps feeding the world his debunked conspiracy theories.

GIULIANI: In each state, there were ineligible ballots that overwhelmed the margin of victory.

GRIFFIN (voice-over): No, Mr. Giuliani, there weren't. The United States Department of Homeland Security issued this joint statement from its Elections Infrastructure Committee stating there is no evidence that any voting system deleted or lost votes, changed votes, or was in any way compromised.

UNKNOWN: Rudy Giuliani is undermining confidence in the American election system and, therefore, undermining our national security.

GRIFFIN (voice-over): It's a far cry from the man who was dubbed mayor of the world in the wake of 9/11.

(APPLAUSE)

GRIFFIN (voice-over): Ever since Giuliani became a vocal supporter of the president's 2016 presidential bid, he's been Trump's chief conspiracist, even traveling to Ukraine to try to dig up dirt on Hunter Biden.

Intelligence officials told the White House Giuliani was the target of a Russian influence operation in 2019, according to The Washington Post.

KENNETH MCCALLION, FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR: It is very dangerous and extremely alarming.

GRIFFIN (voice-over): Former federal prosecutor Ken McCallion, who specializes in Russian-organized crime and once worked with Giuliani, believes Giuliani may be unwittingly doing the Russians' business in this election.

MCCALLION: What they're doing is completely 100 percent in the interests of Russia, which is to create as much damage and confusion to the U.S.

GRIFFIN (voice-over): And it's working, the lies and false reports sending thousands into the streets for a pro-Trump protest this past weekend.

UNKNOWN (voice-over): Trump must win!

GRIFFIN (voice-over): And perhaps convincing millions of Americans to doubt the U.S. election system. Staunch Republican and former Trump national security adviser John Bolton says it's a damaging strategy that won't end after Trump leaves office.

JOHN BOLTON, FORMER TRUMP NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER: Real distrust in the system, casting doubt on the integrity of our electoral system, the constitutional process. The Russians and the Chinese couldn't ask for any more. What Trump is doing is potentially dangerous for the country.

GRIFFIN (on camera): Former colleagues of Rudy Giuliani questioned whether there has been cognitive decline.

[23:50:03]

GRIFFIN (on camera): They just don't know what happened to Rudy Giuliani. One is telling me that because the president doesn't even pay his attorney, Rudy Giuliani seems to be destroying his reputation free of charge.

Drew Griffin, CNN, Atlanta.

(END VIDEO TAPE)

LEMON (on camera): Drew, thank you so much. A final note from President Barack Obama. We'll be right back.

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[23:55:00]

LEMON: I want to end with one more thought from former President Barack Obama in one of his interviews, OK? He has been out talking about the current president, the future president, our democracy, and race in one interview, telling The Atlantic magazine, and I quote here.

"America as an experiment is genuinely important to the world not because of the accidents of history that made us the most powerful nation on Earth, but because America is the first real experiment in building a large, multiethnic, multicultural democracy. And we don't know yet if that can hold. There haven't been enough of them around for long enough to say for certain that it is going to work."

Our diversity should be should be strength and not something that drives us apart. Let's all make it work. Good night. Stay safe. Thanks for watching. Our coverage continues.

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