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Don Lemon Tonight

President Trump Fires Top DHS Cybersecurity Official Who Rejected The President's Baseless Voter Fraud Claims; Wayne County, Michigan Officials Certify Election Results After Republicans Earlier Blocked Certification; Sen. Chuck Grassley (R-IA) Tests Positive For COVID-19; Dust-Up In Senate Over Wearing Masks On Floor; Trump Campaign Team Is Losing Case After Case In Court; Pfizer Is Getting Ready To Submit Emergency Use Authorization For Its Vaccine. Aired 11p-12a ET

Aired November 17, 2020 - 23:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[23:00:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DON LEMON, CNN HOST: So we have been telling we have major breaking news unfolding just over the last few hours. Tonight, President Trump is firing the official at the Department of Homeland Security, who publicly rejected Trump's claims of widespread voter fraud in the election.

His name is Chris Krebs. He had released a statement just after the election, saying -- quote -- "There is no evidence that any voting system deleted or lost votes, change votes, or was in any way compromised." That was his statement. After that, Krebs was fired. And on Twitter, here is what he said. His deputy, Matt Travis, resigned his position, as well.

Trump also cancelling plans to spend Thanksgiving at Mar-a-Lago. One official saying it feels like a bunker mentality at the White House. That was his statement on Twitter, where he said that it had to be -- that the election was not compromised in any way.

So I want to bring in now CNN's Jeremy Diamond, Alex Marquardt, and Pamela Brown. Good to see all of you. Welcome back, Pamela and Alex. And good evening to you, Jeremy.

Listen, there is a lot going on here. We don't know what the next 60 or so odd days are going to be like. Jeremy, Krebs is out. You've got a source telling you more about the number two official at the agency that just -- we just reported about. Tell us what you know.

JEREMY DIAMOND, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Yeah, that's right, Don, the assistant deputy director, Matt Travis, I am told by a source familiar with the matter, that he has also resigned tonight now.

He was not fired by the White House, by the president in the same way that Krebs was, but instead, I'm told that Travis resigned after it was clear that he was not going to be taking the helm of the agency, and so he is stepping down. And instead, Brandon Wales, who is a career DHS official, he is expected to now -- he's the number three assistant, he's expected to take the helm. Wales, interestingly, you know, he's a career official, but he has also served in senior positions under John Kelly and Kirstjen Nielsen, the last two secretaries of Homeland Security.

But I think, Don, what is interesting here overall is that, you know, we found out another way that somebody can get fired in the Trump administration.

We've known before that you can get fired if you are disloyal to the president, we know you can get fired if the president decides you no longer agrees with your policy positions, and now we've learned that you can also get fired if you simply state the facts to the public, because that is what Krebs did as it relates to the 2020 election.

Clearly, the president decided that he didn't like that truth and decided that he wanted to fire the person who is telling it.

LEMON: Alex, you've been getting -- you've got a statement, I understand, from an official at CISA. What does that statement say?

ALEX MARQUARDT, CNN SENIOR NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, this all happened really suddenly, Don. We know from our colleague Jake Tapper that Krebs didn't know that he was fired until he saw the tweet. Now, we have just seen a letter that has gone out to the work force from the CISA chief of staff. Her name is Emily Early. This is part of it.

She writes it is essential that we do not lose focus on the important work we collectively undertake on behalf of the American people. I know we can count on each of you to continue the excellent work you do every day as we all work together to defend today and secure tomorrow."

That line there, defend today and secure tomorrow, it is something that Krebs said all the time. That was essentially his tagline. That was essentially the line that came out of CISA all the time. And Jeremy is absolutely right.

[23:04:54]

MARQUARDT: Krebs was fired because of what he has been saying in the days that have followed the election, where he has been pushing back more and more aggressively against the president. Not calling out the president directly, not naming him, but simply stating the facts, calling out conspiracies, debunking when he has called hoaxes and nonsense.

Perhaps, Don, his biggest crime, in the view of the president, was saying that in no uncertain terms -- and he said this alongside other federal state and private election officials -- that this was the most secure election in American history. This comes as the president, of course, is calling it a rigged election.

You read some of that statement, Don, in which they say that there is no evidence that any voting system deleted or lost votes, change votes or was in any way compromised. The president is saying the opposite. And now, Chris Krebs is out of the job.

LEMON: Mm-hmm.

MARQUARDT: Krebs's number one priority was making sure that Americans decide American elections. So while he might be out of a job, he can sleep soundly tonight knowing that he was a huge part in overseeing a very safe and secure 2020 election, Don.

LEMON: Pamela, I want to get to what happened in Michigan. Michigan's Wayne County is reversing their decision to block the certification of Joe Biden's victory there. What caused them to change their mind, Pamela?

PAMELA BROWN, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: We don't really have a clear answer on that, Don. Here's what we know. What they did initially, blocking those votes, it was unprecedented. There was public outrage to that move, hours of public outrage, and then they came back and decided to unanimously certify the vote.

Now, they did ask the bipartisan board, did ask for the secretary of state to look at some of the imbalances in some of these precincts where the number of signatures in the poll book doesn't match up with the number of votes tabulated. This is something that Wayne County has dealt, has had an issue with historically.

Election experts say it is typically a clerical error, administrative, and not reflective of voter fraud. But, of course, all of this tonight fit right to the president's hand. He pounced on it, tweeted about it, and fed (ph) into initially his false narrative, Don, that somehow the election was rigged even though, as Alex just pointed out and Jeremy, this was the most secure election in history, according to U.S. government officials.

LEMON: Interesting. Jeremy, the president has been celebrating the Wayne County republican's decision to not certify Joe Biden's victory there, even though they ended up reversing themselves. First, he tweeted about it and then they reversed.

MARQUARDT: Yeah, he tweeted about it and he incorrectly referred to it as a decision made not by the Wayne County board but by Michigan officials, saying Michigan just refused to certify the election results, which isn't remotely what happened in the situation.

But Don, what is clear is that the president is kind of grasping for anything that he can in this situation. You know, day after day, the president has his advisers come to him and inform him that his lawsuits in the courts are failing.

They are either getting dismissed or they have to drop them, or the lawyers who are acting on the Trump campaign's behalf, arguing the cases on the Trump campaign's behalf, are withdrawing from the cases because they realize that they have no real legal merit to them.

And so the president is looking for anything that he can possibly grasp on to at this point. But to try and make his case at this election was not legitimate. Of course, we know the facts. The facts are that this election was legitimate, as Chris Krebs correctly told the American people, you know.

And what's troubling, Don, is obviously the president is getting encouraged by certain people, including the former New York City Mayor Rudy Giuliani --

LEMON: Oh, boy.

MARQUARDT: -- who while other folks are telling the president, trying to level with him and tell him the reality that he's not going to overturn the election results through the courts, Giuliani, as Pam reported yesterday, you know, he's been arguing the opposite. He's been arguing that, you know, there is something that can be done here. He made many of those conspiracy theories blatant arguments in federal court in Pennsylvania just today.

LEMON: Giuliani is always in there somewhere. I should have known. The president -- listen, Ukraine, impeachment --

(LAUGHTER)

LEMON: Boy, oh boy, oh boy. Thank you all. I'll see you soon. Be safe.

Joining me now is CNN national security analyst Juliette Kayyem and CNN presidential historian Douglas Brinkley. What a strange time we are living in. Good evening to both of you.

Juliette, Krebs was fighting for the truth. He was telling the truth. You say his success was his undoing. Why is that?

JULIETTE KAYYEM, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST, FORMER DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY OFFICIAL, PROFESSOR AT HARVARD'S KENNEDY SCHOOL OF GOVERNMENT: I mean, his mission and the office's mission was to protect the 2020 election from foreign interference, from disinformation, and to basically provide state and locals with the tools that they needed to protect the election.

They did so successfully. It was remarkable. We didn't see the kind of disinformation or disruption that we were worried about from Russia, if not China, and we saw an election that put a lot of stresses on the system, lots of people voted, lots of different kinds of voting, COVID, a pandemic that we had to deal with, but it held together.

[23:10:07]

KAYYEM: And so the next day, a president who wanted it to be held together, might have given Chris Krebs an award, instead, he began to undermine -- the president began to undermine that work. The disinformation was coming from within the White House, and Chris Krebs and his team decided rightfully that they work for the United States and not for the president. They needed to shoot that bad stuff down and they did.

LEMON: Doug, I don't know if you've ever seen anything like this, especially considering the timing, right? This president is out the door, every turn. He and his allies are doing whatever they can do to try to undermine this election, undermining democracy in the process. And for every Krebs and his deputy who stand up, there are countless more enabling this president. What is going on?

DOUGLAS BRINKLEY, CNN PRESIDENTIAL HISTORIAN: Well, for starters, Chris Krebs is one of the heroes of 2020, along with Dr. Fauci, as we're all seeing. I hope Joe Biden considers giving him his job back once he gets inaugurated because here is somebody who did an amazing job. Record voter turnout in U.S. history in 2020 amidst a pandemic and yet we ran a great free and fair election.

The problem that Trump has is these cowardly enablers and the key one is Lindsey Graham. You know, Americans invest in their senators over a period of time. And Lindsey Graham knows about the U.S. Armed Forces. He knows about CIA and State Department. He knows about what a Chris Krebs is all about and what it means to our democracy.

And instead, you see Lindsey Graham doing gutter work in Georgia, trying to see if he can get ballots thrown out in states to elect Donald Trump, keep his fantasy that he is still president. And it's one of the saddest, most pathetic U.S. senators. I mean, Lindsey Graham is now hitting Joe McCarthy territory.

And luckily, we still occasionally have these patriots who are holding things together. There are some in the Republican Party, but they're very, very few. Everybody should be telling Donald Trump share Operation Warp Speed. We paid for the vaccines. Don't hoard them, don't keep information. This is an American program that can save lives. Help.

LEMON: Yeah. I've got to ask you, Juliette, because -- I keep looking down because it just keeps coming in.

KAYYEM: Yeah.

LEMON: This is a letter -- chief of staff Emily Early, right, who is assistant chief of staff. She says a change of leadership is not a change in mission and it is essential that we do not lose focus on the important work we collectively undertake on behalf of the American people.

She goes on to say, you know, we are the best work force. But when you think about what's happening, Doug just mentioned there are people holding together, is our democracy hanging by a thread?

KAYYEM: No. I mean, this is what -- I mean that honestly. I mean, I would be worried if the votes were closer and I do worry about what's acceptable behavior now and that lasting longer than Donald Trump. But I've been pretty calm and there are not lots of people on the streets. Trump is trying to have these rallies. A couple thousand show up. Most Americans are accepting the election.

And we have -- the way I think about it is they all think America is a joke. I mean, this is the way they think about Trump and Graham, all the sort of losers that have surrounded him. And it turns out that people who take America seriously, they clearly outweigh them, outnumber them. And that gives me hope every day.

I'm not saying I'm not anxious about what Trump can do, but, you know, it's just as likely he does something harmful that he just sort of, you know, goes in some place, golf, and never comes back. I mean, that is the nature of someone --

(LAUGHTER)

KAYYEM: -- who does not take America seriously. I just -- you know, I'm not -- I wasn't born yesterday, I've been around a long time, and it just show -- I think the system is holding. It has been stretch. There are stress tests going on. I do worry about the long-term damage. But it turns out there is more of us than them, and that should give people a lot of confidence.

LEMON: All right. We're on the same page because at first, I was very calm, and then the more I see every single day, I'm like, oh, my gosh, this is getting worse. But I have to remember, I said it is going to get worse before it gets better.

KAYYEM: Before it gets better.

LEMON: Thank you both. I appreciate it.

We've got a lot of big breaking news tonight, including Michigan's largest county certifying election results just hours after Republicans try to block certification.

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[23:15:00]

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LEMON (on camera): Breaking news out of Michigan tonight, the Wayne County Board of Canvassers voting to unanimously certify its presidential election results, a huge reversal coming just hours after Republicans temporarily block certification of the results.

Wayne County is home to Detroit and is Michigan's largest county, by the way. It was critical to president-elect Joe Biden's victory in the state. He won Michigan by more than 148,000 votes.

Wayne County's decision to certify its results only happened after citizens at the boards meeting tonight shared their outrage, with some saying Republicans' initial decision to block election results showed there was an attempt to silence the vote of the people.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNKNOWN: How dare you? How dare you try to silence the voice of the citizens? You will not get away with this. And understand and know, that every decision that you make, that does not have moral decency, you will have to stand and get accounted for that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON (on camera): Well, let's discuss now. Amanda Carpenter is here. She is a former communications director for Ted Cruz. Also, Jim Messina, former campaign manager for President Barack Obama. I am so glad to have both of you on. Good evening.

[23:19:59]

So, Amanda, you said what happened in Wayne County tonight reveals something very important about our democracy, and I think I re-tweeted this. What is it?

(LAUGHTER)

AMANDA CARPENTER, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR, FORMER SENIOR COMMUNICATIONS ADVISOR AND SPEECHWRITER FOR SENATOR TED CRUZ: I mean, our democracy is so dependent on good character of men and women in leadership positions. If you don't have men and women of good character in those positions, you do not have democracy. The Donald Trump era has taught us how fragile it is.

I want people to look at these results and seriously consider, would our democracy survive a 2000 style extremely close recount under these conditions or a Trump second term? I don't think so. Look at what happened in Michigan tonight. The results are clear. The election is over.

And still, two Republicans on a four-member board, threatened to throw the system once again into chaos, because everyone knows that the Trump campaign lawyers are fantasizing about these long shots scenario where they can get local boards not to certify the elections and they can throw the results to republican state legislature so that they select the winner of the election, not the will of the people.

And that's what those two Republicans were playing with in that vote tonight. And as a native Michigander who grew up in Genesee County, I was thrilled to watch the people on the Zoom call, sitting on a Zoom call --

LEMON: I know.

CARPENTER: -- on a Tuesday night watching and they had the facts.

LEMON: Wasn't it fascinating to watch?

CARPENTER: This is not in line with what happened in the past. And they were prepared --

LEMON: Yeah.

CARPENTER: -- to stop this deal in real time. That was incredible. Kudos to Michigan.

LEMON: Weren't you inspired by that, Amanda? I was. I watched. I had it on. I didn't care about the audio glitches. I'm sure you saw the same thing. I just -- and every time I get back to work and when there was an audio glitch and then when I heard the audio again, I pop it right back up on my screen, and I would watch. It was fascinating.

Jim, listen, the Democrats have been fighting back in court. You also saw these people in Wayne County go to -- they went to town, on the officials who tried to disenfranchise them. So far, the process is moving along and it seems to be working. But aren't you concerned that it has dragged out the song and what could happen before the inauguration in January?

JIM MESSINA, FORMER OBAMA CAMPAIGN MANAGER: Well, any American should be concerned by what's happening in Wayne County. I mean, I too watched it. And on one hand, it's absolutely crazy that two Republican electors attempted to subvert the will of the people.

LEMON: Mm-hmm.

MESSINA: But to your point, in the end, people rose up and their collective voice is one, they immediately backed these two idiots down, and they realized they were about to be a national travesty.

I kind of agree with you. I think the bigger problem here is we are holding to a system where these two folks can try to figure out how to subvert the will of -- this county -- Donald Trump lost this county two to one, and they are trying to go to these machinations where they find a way to take these votes away. It really is crazy.

But, once again, in American history, a bunch of grassroots people got together and said absolutely not. That's how we elected Barack Obama. That's how, tonight, in Wayne County, the people won. And we just got to continue this work ever it occurred. I don't care how many times Rudy Giuliani and his band of lawyer idiots attempt to do these things. So far, they are (INAUDIBLE) for everything.

LEMON: Listen, Amanda, I want you to talk to me about -- talk to me about Lindsey Graham and, you know, your relationship with Ted Cruz, Ted Cruz, Rudy Giuliani. They're all playing a part here in this damage to our democracy.

CARPENTER: Yeah. I mean, it's hard to watch. I mean, number one, because it is damaging to democracy. But I'm sort of thankful for the fact that it's not successful. I mean, all this nonsense that Donald Trump rolled out about the election being rigged, it will go down as one of the dumbest political strategic moves to question mail-in ballots, when you need mail-in ballots to win.

The secretary of state down in Georgia has been making the point. He's under assault from the entire Trump campaign apparatus for daring to speak the truth about what happened in his state, how Donald Trump lost it. He said, listen, if you look at the absentee ballots in the 26 -- 2020 primary, Donald Trump had thousand more votes and those absentee ballots didn't materialize for him in the general election. He would have won if he would have brought those to the table.

And Georgia operatives are worried that in the runoff elections come January, there is going to be Republicans on the sidelines because they have convinced their base that the election is rigged against them.

And so, you know, that would be good karma, I guess, if these tactics ultimately defeat the people who are using them. That's what I can hope for. The more we expose why this is bad strategically and bad for democracy, you know, I do hope the truth went out on both of those twin channels.

[23:25:04]

LEMON (on camera): Listen, we will have you back again, Jim and Amanda, of course. Sorry. Our time is short. We have a lot of breaking news. Thank you so much. I appreciate both of you being here.

A sitting U.S. senator has tested positive for COVID-19. Senator Chuck Grassley, the Iowa Republican, 87 years old, 87 years old, wow! So, he was on the floor of the Senate, as late as yesterday, where he removed his mask to speak on the Senate floor. Grassley says he is in quarantine and he feels well.

But I want you to take this, OK, because his announcement comes on the heels of a dust-up among some senators who are wearing masks on the Senate floor. On Monday, Senator Sherrod Brown, the Ohio Democrat, challenged Alaska Republican Senator Dan Sullivan to put on a mask as he presided over the chamber, given that staffers are working near his desk. This is how the exchange played out.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. SHERROD BROWN (D-OH): I'll start by asking the presiding officer to please wear a mask, as he speaks, and people below him are -- I can't tell you what to do but I know that --

SEN. DAN SULLIVAN (R-AK): I don't wear a mask when I'm speaking, like most senators.

BROWN: Well, most senators --

SULLIVAN: Shut up. I don't need your instruction.

BROWN: I know you don't need my instruction but I -- there clearly isn't much interest in this body in public health.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON (on camera): Come on, people, just wear mask. Well, that exchange, prompting Senator Ted Cruz, the Texas Republican, to slam Senator Brown on Twitter and really stepping outside the boundaries of normal Senate decorum. Cruz is tweeting this. This is idiotic. Sherrod Brown is being a complete ass.

He wears a mask to speak, when nobody is remotely near him, as an ostentatious sign of fake virtue. Then Sullivan was over 50 feet away presiding. Last I checked 50 feet is more than six feet.

Well, a senator calling a colleague a complete ass for simply asking -- first of all, these facts are wrong about how far people are away and -- you know, what it's wrong about how people are away and -- you know, what constitute facts and all of that.

Calling a colleague an ass for simply asking another senator to wear a mask -- I mean, come on, what is going on here? You can decide what to call that behavior, Americans, viewers. But maybe we shouldn't be so surprised by Senator Ted Cruz not taking the virus seriously. Over the summer, as COVID-19 was spiking across the country, Cruz downplayed the severity of the virus, especially if Joe Biden won the election. Watch.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. TED CRUZ (R-TX): You know, interesting thing, if it ends up that Biden wins in November, I hope he doesn't, I don't think he will, but if he does, I guarantee you, the week after the election, suddenly all those Democratic governors, all of those Democratic mayors will say, everything is magically better, go back to work, go back to school. Suddenly the problems are solved. You won't even have to wait for Biden to be sworn in.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON (on camera): I haven't heard anybody say that. No one. Wrong, wrong, wrong, Senator Ted Cruz. His attempts then and his attempt now to score political points of the coronavirus are pathetic, pathetic.

COVID-19 is raging out of control. Hospitals are at record highs now. And the nearly 250,000 Americans, their families, those people who are dead, I am sure you have something to say to them?

Every day, we see Republicans and Democrats saying that in their states, talking about people dying and just how bad it is. Every single day. Every day. And the news media is still covering it.

So guess what, Senator Ted Cruz, it is not magically better. All the problems are not solved, especially in your home state of Texas. You've got a lot of work to do for your constituents there. Wear a mask while you're at it. It will protect your colleagues and it will protect you, too. There's a name for you, but I won't say, because I won't stoop to your level.

The president's legal cases keep getting shut down one after another after another. Guess who's behind it? Rudy Giuliani. He's on the case now. How is that working out? Plus, a big milestone for a vaccine today. But Dr. Fauci is saying don't relax just yet.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ANTHONY FAUCI, DIRECTOR, NATIONAL INSTITUTE OF ALLERGY AND INFECTIOUS DISEASES: We don't want the extraordinary success of these two vaccines to get people to be complacent. I've often said help is on the way, but help is not here yet.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[23:30:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON (on camera): Tonight, President Trump firing the homeland security official who outright rejected his bogus claims of massive voter fraud. That as the president battles in the courts trying to overturn the results of the election. But the cases are not holding up.

Here is CNN's Tom Foreman.

(BEGIN VIDEO TAPE)

TOM FOREMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Disgraceful, living in some fantasy world. That is how an attorney for election officials characterized the president's lawyer in a Pennsylvania court as Rudy Giuliani claimed election irregularities.

Wow! Trump's man echoed some of the same arguments he raised in that ill-fated, four seasons, total landscaping press conference.

RUDY GIULIANI, TRUMP CAMPAIGN ATTORNEY, FORMER NEW YORK CITY MAYOR: I know this city has a sad history of voter fraud.

FOREMAN (voice-over): But when a judge asks Giuliani how he could possibly justify throwing out millions of votes, the former New York mayor dodged and just kept pushing his story.

[23:35:01]

FOREMAN (voice-over): And that is pretty much how it's going in Trump's quest for illegal solution to his lost election.

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: There is tremendous litigation going on and this is a case where they're trying to steal an election.

FOREMAN (voice-over): In hotly contested Arizona, team Trump has abandoned legal action now that it's clear it can't help him win there. In Wisconsin, a recount would cost Trump almost $8 million upfront and any hope for that appears to be dying. In Michigan, an appeals court has rejected the president's claim of fraud for lack of proof.

Ever since the vote, Trump has held that the election was rigged, ballots were altered, signatures not checked, and voting machines full of glitches. But he has produced no evidence for any of that.

His Department of Homeland Security says this election was the most secure in American history. And longtime lawyer for republican election interests, Ben Ginsberg, says looking over cases, the utter lack of proof is just part of the problem.

BEN GINSBERG, REPUBLICAN ELECTION LAWYER: Whether or not there are any valid charges in what the Trump team has filed, what is clear from the (INAUDIBLE) is that there are not enough votes in question to change the outcome of the election in any of this states they're trying to contest.

FOREMAN (on camera): What happened to Giuliani today was by some accounts humiliating, and to many, a sure sign that the president's desperate legal bid for victory is coming to a painful, final, and failed resolution with Joe Biden still the winner. Don?

(END VIDEO TAPE)

LEMON (on camera): Tom Foreman, thank you very much, sir.

Now, I want to bring in CNN Election Law Analyst, Franita Tolson.

Franita, good to see you. Thank you so much for joining.

FRANITA TOLSON, CNN ELECTION LAW ANALYST: I am very happy to be here. Thank you.

LEMON: The Trump campaign's legal maneuvers are failing in the courts. What's your assessment? Is there any merit to any of these lawsuits? And how long can this go on, Franita?

TOLSON: So, no. It's really important for your viewers to understand that this is all sort of like 11th hour attempts to change the election outcome and it is just simply not going to happen.

Even if you look at what happened in Pennsylvania with Rudy Giuliani, it's consistent with the president's allegations of fraud, where there are evidence free allegations that election officials abuse their authority and did not count votes properly.

So we're seeing a lot of the same allegations over and over, state by state, but they're failing in courts of law, which suggests that it is not really about legal arguments here, it's really about messaging and it's about the political case, pressing his case --

LEMON: And PR, right?

TOLSON: --- in the court of public opinion.

LEMON: Yeah, PR.

TOLSON: It's about PR.

LEMON: You got it. You got it. Great minds, as they say. So, listen, he will fail and may fail to reverse the election. But is there long- term damage to worry about here? Is every election now going to be fought out in the courts over non-existent evidence of voter fraud?

TOLSON: So that's the fear, right? So it's not -- so Don, let's be clear. The fact that the court is involved here and the courts are involved, plural, is not necessarily cause for alarm. Of course, there is often litigation with presidential elections and elections more generally.

LEMON: Mm-hmm.

TOLSON: The question is to what extent does this erode public confidence in our election apparatus? I think that is the long-term damage here because people will start to question whether or not election officials are acting in good faith. They will question existence of fraud despite the lack of evidence, which is the real danger of what the president is doing in court here, right?

Because every day Americans are not reading legal briefings, right? So, he could spin it any way he wants and his supporters believe whatever he says. And so this lack of evidence will not sway many Americans and that's the danger.

LEMON: Franita, this is really great. I want to have you back longer. I really enjoyed, very knowledgeable, great segment. Thank you so much. I will see you soon.

TOLSON: Thank you.

LEMON: Thank you.

TOLSON: Take care.

LEMON (on camera): Pfizer is getting ready to submit its vaccine for emergency use authorization. Right now, one in 10 people being tested for coronavirus in the U.S. are testing positive. Stay with us.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LAWANNA RIVERS, REGISTERED NURSE: Patients were so sick and there is nothing we can do for them.

LORI LUEGER, NURSE PRACTITIONER: We flat out, don't have the resources. We just don't.

DAVID CHANSOLME, MEDICAL DIRECTOR, INFECTION PREVENTION, INTEGRIS HEALTH: It is, awful, awful, awful watching people die alone.

JUAN ANCHONDO, REGISTERED NURSE: This situation is unsustainable and it is going to get worse.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[23:40:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: Some very promising news tonight in the search for an effective vaccine to help battle COVID. Top officials at Pfizer are now saying that they have accumulated enough safety data on their vaccine. They are preparing to file for an emergency use authorization with the FDA, a major step to move forward here and a major step towards maybe somehow getting back to normalcy.

I want to bring in now Tom Bollyky, director of global health at the Council on Foreign Relations. He is also the author of "Plagues and the Paradox of Progress: Why the World is Getting Healthier in Worrisome Ways." Thank you, sir. It is good to see you.

Give us some hope here. Let's talk about -- we are going to talk about the vaccine and the hope in just a minute. But let's start with where we are tonight, OK, because we've got to point out. Look at the surge in these cases. We're at a crisis point and there are plenty of people who still want to get together for Thanksgiving.

[23:45:00]

LEMON: What do you say to those families, Tom?

TOM BOLLYKY, DIRECTOR OF GLOBAL HEALTH, COUNCIL ON FOREIGN RELATIONS: So, I say to those families, if you cannot all avoid getting together this holiday season, you should. I know how difficult that is. I have an 87-year-old father. He is widower. He is on his own. I hate not spending holidays with him. I really do. But he has a heart condition and I -- you know, I've worked my entire career in public health, I can't think of how to keep him safe under these circumstances.

LEMON: How is he holding up under quarantine?

BOLLYKY: So we're going to forego it for now. Even in quarantine, you know, we can certainly -- you can certainly do your best --

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: I was asking how your dad holding up in quarantine. Eighty- seven, to be alone at that age is not fun.

BOLLYKY: It's tough. It's tough.

LEMON: Yeah.

BOLLYKY: It's been really tough on him. And for the rest of us, we really need to keep in contact with him regularly to make sure he's integrated. But it's been a hard road for him. We're looking forward to hopefully in a couple months where we can ease up a bit on these kinds of restrictions.

LEMON: Yeah. Same here, my mom is in her seventies, and I haven't seen her. I just want to hug her. I can't wait to do it. Listen, we learned just a few minutes ago that the FDA has issued an emergency use authorization for the first COVID self-test that can provide rapid results at home. You can take a nasal swab at home if you're 14 and older and process the test yourself with an at-home unit.

I mean, it sounds like a good development. The question is, is it going to be rapidly available, when, and the accuracy, and how much is it going to cost tonight, how much people are going to trust it?

BOLLYKY: So the data is just still emerging. Obviously with past emergency use authorization, it pays to be cautious with what the FDA has put out here, but it is certainly a promising sign. Expanding testing, rapid testing really could be one more tool that brings us back to a life that approaches normalcy, if we're able to identify at least on perhaps a daily basis what our current viral load is and it helps us make ourselves safer and others.

LEMON: So, Tom, let is talk about -- I said we need some hope here. We need some good news. Let's turn to the vaccines now, OK? It is very positive news from Pfizer today if they get the emergency authorization. What is a realistic timeline for people to be vaccinated?

BOLLYKY: It's a great question. So, science has delivered again the way it really has throughout this pandemic. The trial results both for the Pfizer and the vaccine, Pfizer and the Moderna vaccines are frankly spectacular. They would be among the most effective vaccines ever developed.

No real safety concerns, as you mentioned, during the trials, really diverse clinical trial subjects, everything you would want, so really, really promising. You know, still more to go for that to be confirmed by the FDA, but a really good sign.

Here's the challenge. The challenge is that to reap the benefits of these vaccines, we really need to be able to vaccinate a high number of adults. What research has shown is to have this vaccine and the pandemic on its own you need at least 75 percent of the population to be vaccinated.

It's going to take a while to get the supplies up to that level, to meet that. We also need to overcome the challenges we've had with people getting vaccinated in the past, adults in particular. But it is a really, really promising start. Science really could not have delivered better than it has with these vaccines.

LEMON: That's great. Listen, I have to -- I want to ask you this next question because I've heard so many people wrongfully state, you know, oh, American should be doing herd immunity. That's what we need. That's why we need.

In Sweden, the country's former chief epidemiologist said that Sweden got it wrong on herd immunity, failed to adequately prepare on the second wave of the coronavirus. That is a devastating miscalculation for a country to make.

BOLLYKY: It is. It is. So Sweden today has one of the highest death rates, population adjusted in Europe. The number of cases is spiking. They announced this week that they are going to shift from the current restriction, which is on gatherings of 50 people to down to eight people. They're going to do at first just for four weeks, but likely from what they've said today, to extend it through the holidays.

LEMON: Mm-hmm.

BOLLYKY: Here's one important thing to know. Even at 50 people limit per gatherings, that's higher than a lot of -- that is slower rather than a lot of U.S. states.

LEMON: Mm-hmm.

BOLLYKY: So, Sweden has come around and moved down to eight. Maybe this provides a lesson and a guide for states that have been a little bit slow to adopt those kinds of restrictions.

LEMON: Yeah. So much for that herd immunity thing. [23:50:00]

LEMON: I hope you guys are listening to the science and Tom Bollyky here. Tom, thank you. Appreciate it.

BOLLYKY: My pleasure.

LEMON: We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: We warned you at the beginning of the show that it would be a busy night. It has a lot of breaking news unfolding just over the last few hours. Tonight, President Trump is firing the official at the Department of Homeland Security, who publicly rejected Trump's claims of widespread voter fraud in the election. Chris Krebs is his name.

[23:54:58]

LEMON: He released a statement just after the election, saying -- quote -- "There is no evidence that any voting system deleted or lost votes, changed votes, or was in any way compromised."

After Krebs was fired on Twitter, his deputy, Matt Travis, resigned his position. In Michigan, Wayne County -- it is home to Detroit -- certifying election results after Republican members of the vote canvass -- of the vote canvassing board initially blocked certification. The people of Wayne County were outraged, demanding the results be properly certified.

And it's Tuesday. Well, Wednesday in just a few minutes. So thank you for watching. Our coverage continues.

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