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Don Lemon Tonight

U.S. Passes A Quarter Of A Million COVID-19 Deaths; Some Trump Administration Officials Quietly Reaching Out To President-Elect Joe Biden; President Trump Aims to Undermine Biden's Legitimacy Even as Legal Challenges Fizzle; Georgia Voter The Trump Campaign Falsely Accused Of Casting Ballot In The Name Of A Dead Woman Speaks Out; New York City Schools To Close Due To Coronavirus Surge; Vaccine Approval Process Is Moving Ahead. Aired 11p-12a ET

Aired November 18, 2020 - 23:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[23:00:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DON LEMON, CNN HOST (on camera): So, we have some breaking news tonight. The United States reaching a terrible milestone in the COVID- 19 pandemic. Now more than 250,000 Americans dead from this virus. A quarter of a million people.

As the pandemic rages on, President-Elect Joe Biden warning that Trump's obstruction of the transition will set back the Biden's team ability to get the virus under control. But we're learning some current and former administration officials are going around Trump, quietly reaching out to Biden's team in an effort to put duty to country over partisanship.

I want to bring in now CNN's White House Correspondent, Jeremy Diamond. Jeremy, good evening to you. So, more than a quarter of a million Americans have now died from coronavirus, but not one word from our president on the pandemic today. What's going on inside the White House?

JEREMY DIAMOND, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Don, just think about the fact that it was less than a month ago that the White House chief of staff said in public that we are not going to control this pandemic. And so that has already been the baseline attitude at this White House.

My sources have told me that that attitude preceded Meadow's claims by several months, and that essentially has been how the president and his team have approached this virus, seeing, you know, just trying to implement baseline mitigation measures while holding out, quote, for a vaccine.

And so now you add in the facts that the president of the United States is single-mindedly focused on one thing, and that is overturning the results of the election, and that crowds everything else out, Don, including a quarter of million American deaths including the surges that we are seeing with this pandemic that we have been seeing over the last several weeks. And not only is the president single-mindedly focused on that, Don,

but he is digging deeper and deeper into conspiracy theory territory as it relates to overturning the results of the election despite the fact, Don, that over the last several weeks now, he has watched one court case after another getting either thrown out of court, dismissed or suffered losses as he has in Pennsylvania over the last couple of days.

LEMON: So, I've been reporting this and I said it just moments ago. This is the reporting of our team, you guys in Washington, that some Trump administration officials are now actually starting to reach out to Biden's transition team. What are you hearing about this, Jeremy?

DIAMOND: Yes, Don, some current and former administration officials have begun informally reaching out to the Biden transition team. Obviously this isn't as robust an effort as you would see in a normal transition, but it does seem to be a sign that even people within the Trump administration, even people who have recently left the Trump administration and are connected to it, they do see a need to help the Biden team prepare to assume the presidency, even as the president continues to draw this out.

And I expect, Don, as you see the president continued to draw this out, you are going to see a lot more of that. Now, there's no doubt this is no substitute for what you would see in a normal transition, but it does seem to be at least an effort to help the Biden team prepare for the many challenges that they're going to face on day one.

And obviously we know, Don, that health expert after health expert has warned that the response to the coronavirus pandemic is going to be hampered by the fact that the Biden team isn't able to get the full cooperation of the administration.

[23:05:10]

We know that across several departments within these government right now, officials have been told you cannot talk to the Biden transition team. And so, that official communication is not happening, Don, and health experts certainly are concerned about the ramifications of that.

LEMON: Jeremy Diamond, thank you so much.

Joining me now is Mary Trump, the president's niece, also the author of Too much and never enough. Good to see you, Mary. Thank you so much for joining.

MARY TRUMP, NIECE OF DONALD TRUMP (on camera): It's great to be here, Don. Thanks for having me back.

LEMON: So, I don't have to tell you the reality. Do your uncle is holed up in the White House, watching cable TV, tweeting falsehoods, firing senior officials that he sees as disloyal. Even though they are telling the truth. How do you explain this erratic behavior?

M. TRUMP: I don't really think it's erratic. I think it's entirely in keeping with his psychology and what we would expect of somebody like him in these dire circumstances. You know, we have to remember that Donald has never been in a situation he couldn't cheat, lie, steal or buy his way out of. And the fact of the matter is he has done the worst possible thing he could do. He has lost. He lost decisively.

So, there's all this cognitive dissonance going on for him because on the one hand he knows deep down that it is impossible for him to lose ever. And on the other hand there's plenty of objective evidence to suggest that he actually did lose.

So, all of these maneuverings, you know, he's just ricocheting back from one road block to the next trying to find a way out or through. And it's just not going to happen. So, we're going to see increasing levels of desperation, particularly if nobody in Republican leadership does anything to rein him in.

LEMON: It doesn't look like anyone is going to do anything to rein him in. They are still afraid of him, but -- this is what -- I have to ask you. He continues -- and its going off of what you just said, he continues to publicly claim that he won the election. Do you believe that he really believes that or he's just pulling another grift here to get people -- he's got to fight, so people think he's a fighter, he's got to pay off campaign debts and so on. What do you think?

M. TRUMP: As is often the case with Donald, I think both things can be true on some level at the same time. He gaslights himself, which is kind of a fascinating thing. You know, he understands what the truth is, but he lies about it to such a degree that it's not just other people he starts convincing.

Plus, as I said, he's being so enabled. People are giving him hope with these frivolous lawsuits and by still listening to him and by blocking the Biden administration at every turn. So, I think, again, that's why his behavior is so desperate and, you know, we have to remember it's not just that he's trying to grapple with the fact that he lost or at least trying to get beyond that to sow a future in which he is somehow retaining power.

He's also facing potential prosecution, because as soon as January 20th rolls around, he won't have the power of the Oval Office protecting him anymore. So, he's even more tied in to this idea that it can't possibly be the case that he lost.

LEMON: Do you believe though Mary that he's trying to sabotage the incoming administration and poison his supporters' minds so that they will never accept Joe Biden as president?

M. TRUMP: Yes, I do. And it's -- actually it's not for any overarching purpose that Donald does not strategize. I believe other people around him are coming up with strategies to either give him a chance in 2024 or to get as much as they can out of his remaining few days in power. But Donald himself is just ventral. He is (inaudible).

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: It is who he is and he can't help himself. Is that what you're saying?

M. TRUMP: Precisely.

LEMON: Wow. Wow. So, it's not at this point one would think that, Mary, it would be about the country at this point. Or most people who are in that position or in that office would say, well, this is bigger than me. This is about the country. The country needs to come together.

And when you think about this, Mary, any other person who's in this position would say, although I'm disappointed or we are disappointed with the results, it doesn't appear -- although we are disappointed with the results, it's time for the country to come together and it's time for us to stop the recounts and all these things and Joe Biden is going to be the president and I hope that you'll get behind him. Isn't that what most people would do in this position but he can't?

M. TRUMP: Of course. But he's not most people. He's worse than most people. He's damaged in a way most people are not damaged because, you know, it's not just the fact that undermining the incoming administration is bad for democracy or making people doubt the legitimacy of the election is dangerous to our system. It's that by dragging his feet, by being such a sore loser, he is continuing to put American lives in danger every day. It's despicable.

[23:10:34]

LEMON: Yes.

M. TRUMP: It's criminal. And the Republicans need to be held accountable just as much as Donald does at this point.

LEMON: So, it's interesting that we haven't really seen him except for things that he's had to do, right? He's cancelling his thanksgiving trip. Do you think that there's a degree of shame or some reason that he is afraid or ashamed to show his -- to be in public because he cannot create his own reality right now?

M. TRUMP: One thing we need to understand is that the thing Donald is feeling most right now is terror. That's not something he can acknowledge. So, we're seeing that translate into rage. That he can handle. However, as I said earlier, he cannot change the circumstances. He lost. Losing in my family was the worst possible thing you can do, and it was punished severely.

So, there is a lot of shame. And the other thing is Donald's a (inaudible). He cannot brazen his way through this the way he's brazened himself through other things in the past. There's literally nobody who can get him out of this jam, he's in. So, to show up in public, even in a friendly space like Mar-a-Lago, is to suffer the indignity of being around people who know he's lost and are going to try to sooth his, you know, soothe him or comfort him in some way, which would be another way of feeling like a loser.

So, he's going to stay in his bunker as long as he possibly can or until he's figured out some solution to this problem, which is extraordinarily unlikely at this point, although, you know, this stuff about Iran is very troubling. The drawdown of troops in very sensitive regions is very troubling. So, we need to be on our guard.

LEMON: When I hear the excuses from -- you know, personally from people who are, you know, trying to explain to me why the president is doing what he's doing and I just sit there and I'm like I can't -- I can't even believe the text or my ear when they're telling me. It just sounds delusional. It just -- it's like a break from reality. And do you have a similar experience? What?

M. TRUMP: I do. And it's -- it's really disturbing to see how many people are willing to believe something that is so patently false. And it's not just a couple of people here and there. You know, we're talking about a lot of people in higher echelons of government who are either being opportunistically mendacious by repeating a lie in the hopes they're going to convince other people it's true.

Or who are so desperate for various reasons to keep Donald in power that they really do believe that this isn't happening. I'm not entirely sure how to explain it, but it's just another instance in which it shows that we as a country have a lot of work to do going forward.

LEMON: A whole lot of work. I have to ask you about the coronavirus pandemic. We're in a crisis right now. More than 250,000 Americans are dead on his watch. Do you think the president understands or cares about that at all?

M. TRUMP: He understands it. He does not care. Let's put it in really bleak terms. He lost an election decisively. He feels rejected by the American people. He will sacrifice any of us to assuage his own, you know, wounded ego. So -- and that includes people who support him and vote for him. If we look at the maps right now, it's the reddest of red states that are suffering the most horrifically. He doesn't care.

And every second he drags his feet and makes it impossible for the Biden administration to do the job that Donald himself has absolutely no interest in doing, he's directly responsible for the deaths of thousands of Americans. He's got blood on his hands, and he needs to be held to account. So, I hope President-Elect Biden keeps that in mind come January.

LEMON: Mary, thank you.

M. TRUMP: Thank you so much, Don.

LEMON: Now I want to turn to the president's baseless claims of voter fraud. Last week the Trump campaign alleged that a vote cast by a Georgia woman named Deborah Jean Christiansen was fraudulent because -- Deborah Jean Christiansen was fraudulent because she died last year. That is completely false.

[23:15:14]

The vote was legally cast by a living woman who also happens to be named Deborah Jean Christiansen. OK? And she joins me now. Hi, Deborah. Thank you so much for joining.

DEBORAH JEAN CHRISTIANSEN, VOTER TRUMP CAMPAIGN FALSELY CLAIMED WAS FRAUDULENT (on camera): Hi, Don.

LEMON: Good to see you. You doing OK?

CHRISTIANSEN: I'm good. Thank you.

LEMON: Mariana, Georgia. I miss Georgia. I miss living down in Atlanta. So, listen, I'm so sorry that you're dealing with this. When did you learn about this baseless claim of voter fraud?

CHRISTIANSEN: Last night when a CNN reporter showed up at my door.

LEMON: That was it?

CHRISTIANSEN: Yes, that was the first time.

LEMON: What did you think?

CHRISTIANSEN: Huh?

LEMON: What did you think?

CHRISTIANSEN: I just -- I didn't know what to think. It's like, yes, I'm alive and I don't know what's going on here, but it was not voter fraud.

LEMON: What did they say to you, Deborah?

CHRISTIANSEN: They said that there was a Deborah Jean Christiansen that lived in -- actually it was Fulton County, apparently, and passed away last year. And Trump -- and I understood later on too that -- and I understand this has been going on since November 11th, which I didn't know -- anyway that on Fox News or something they were talking about this and my name on there or whatever that I was voting with this woman's name and you know, that it was voter fraud. And I thought, you know, that's not possible.

(LAUGHTER)

And it was a different County. I mean, I'm in Cobb County. She was in Fulton County.

LEMON: Oh my gosh. Well, I can see --

CHRISTIANSEN: Apparently we don't check anything very good, you know on those claims quite frankly.

LEMON: Look, I can see if they mispronounced your name. Because I'm from Louisiana. Jean, there's J-E-A-N, give you Jean so, every once in a while it comes back.

CHRISTIANSEN: Sure.

LEMON: But I mean, even if you're in a wrong County, I mean, that's -- yes. This all started with a tweet from the Trump campaign's war room that was retweeted tens of thousands of times.

CHRISTIANSEN: Oh, I understood.

LEMON: Yes. So, look, he's got nearly 89 million followers also retweeted you know a Fox News clip repeating the accusation about you.

CHRISTIANSEN: Yes.

LEMON: What kind of stress has this misinformation caused you personally? Has it caused you any stress? Have you blown it off? What do you think?

CHRISTIANSEN: You know, I mean, it of course upset me that, you know, somebody would be saying that I'm committing voter fraud because that's absolutely not true. I would never do that.

But not only that so much me, but think about that woman's family, you know, they just lost her last year and somebody's going to contact them and say somebody is using her name to vote. I mean, that, you know, brings up a lot of emotions, I'm sure. I mean, myself and you know, my siblings just lost our mom last year and I can't imagine what that would do to us if somebody did that.

LEMON: I'm so sorry.

CHRISTIANSEN: So, you know, we've got to take into consideration peoples' feelings too, but they don't do that.

LEMON: Yes. I'm sorry about your mom.

CHRISTIANSEN: Oh, thank you.

LEMON: Really I'm sorry about your mom. So, as I understand you voted for Trump in 2016 but not this year.

CHRISTIANSEN: Yes. Right.

LEMON: What changed your mind?

CHRISTIANSEN: It was just the way that he, you know, treated people. I mean, there's -- there just -- it seems to me like there's just been a lot more hate, you know, in our country. And people, you know, against each other and honesty. I don't know where that went. Common sense. You know, integrity. It seemed to have all just gone. You know, and I don't recognize our country anymore for the past four years. And he has been president. And it's sad. It really is.

LEMON: Why so?

CHRISTIANSEN: I mean, he's destroying the democracy with all this, you know, saying that the election was rigged and everything. You know, that's ridiculous.

LEMON: You live down there in Georgia. I'm from a red state. You know, I've been very open about my conversations with some of my red state friends. But not all Republicans. I'm talking about the Trumpers, right, the one -- what is it like? You know, you're in the heart of it. You're in -- well, it was red. Not anymore.

CHRISTIANSEN: Yes, right. Well, actually Don, I just moved here September 25th from Nebraska.

LEMON: Yes. OK. So, then there you go.

CHRISTIANSEN: I haven't been there very long.

LEMON: But still you have experience with folks there. It must be -- you must have some assessment of what's happening.

[23:20:00]

CHRISTIANSEN: Well, I think that a lot of people, like myself, are kind of tired of that. And you know, nothing ever getting done. You know, you've got fights constantly in Congress and the Senate, and you know, especially with this pandemic. Nothing has been done to help these poor people. You know, like, 12 or 250,000 people, and he doesn't care, it seems like. How do you not care? I mean, one person was too many.

LEMON: Right.

CHRISTIANSEN: And now we've got all these other people that are (inaudible) and it just keeps continuing on. And then they, you know, I'm in good shape you know, as far as I, you know, retired and stuff. So, there's a lot of people that you know, lost their jobs, are going up to food banks that may have never had to do that before.

That -- in America -- United States of America, why should that be happening? They should have a pack and out again. It's been since May. These poor people are suffering. These restaurants. All of them. It doesn't make sense to me.

LEMON: I hope folks will listen to you. And I'm glad --

CHRISTIANSEN: I hope so too.

LEMON: -- you're very much alive and kicking.

CHRISTIANSEN: Yes. So am I.

LEMON: And that you are on this -- you came on this show. So, I'm sorry about everything you've had to deal with, and I truly am sorry about your mom.

CHRISTIANSEN: Yes, I appreciate that. Thank you.

LEMON: Thank you so much. You be well. Take care of yourself. OK. Be safe.

CHRISTIANSEN: OK. You too. Bye-bye.

LEMON: So more than a quarter of a million Americans, as you heard, dead as this pandemic just ravages, just rages on and on and on. And as the death toll is going up tonight, the current president is ignoring it. But the President-Elect says this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE BIDEN, 2020 PRESIDENT-ELECT OF THE UNITED STATES: This president continues to play golf and pay no attention to the concerns of COVID. Things are skyrocketing in many cases and it look like it is out of control, but we can get this under control.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

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LEMON (on camera): With the coronavirus pandemic raging, today the United States reached a terrible milestone. Over 250,000 of our fellow Americans have lost their lives to this pandemic. What a tragedy, what a disgrace.

Let's discuss now. Dr. Jonathan Reiner is here, he is the director of the Cardiac Catheterization program at George W. Bush university Hospital. Doctor, thank you. This is -- very night, it just seems to get worse. There were a thousand total deaths due to coronavirus on this country on March 24th. Now just about eight months later, the death toll stands at a quarter of a million. How many deaths are due to negligence on the part of the Trump administration?

JONATHAN REINER, CNN MEDICAL ANALYST (on camera): So, I think the best way to think about this is to look at sort of a comparable country. And let's not look at maybe the most extreme examples. Let's look at a country that's had sort of middle of the road experience. So, let's pick Germany.

So, today, Germany has had 13,000 deaths. Germany has 80 million people. So, they're about a quarter the size of the United States. So, if you do the math and multiply 13,000 by four, you can see that if the U.S. had had a similar response as Germany did, you know, we would have about 60,000 deaths, which would be bad, but, you know, almost 200,000 people would be alive. So, that's the number. That's how I think about it.

We've lost about 200,000 people needlessly. Just (inaudible) of it since for that, you know, every 9/11 at the memorial museum in New York, they read the names of all the victims, about 3,000 victims. And that takes a few hours to do. If you were to read all the names of the people who died in the United States from coronavirus, it would take about 10 days. That's the magnitude of the loss. 10 days, 24 hours a day to read all the names of the people who died, all the people we've lost.

LEMON: Jesus. Schools are closing, I'm sure you've heard here in New York City, because of the seven-day average positivity rate has hit 3 percent. Restaurants and bars and even gyms are going to remain open. What does that say about our priorities? REINER: You know, this is a tough time. You know and I think it was

the wrong decision, but you know, the mayor and the governor are trying to balance the economy. You know, and we don't have a relief bill from Congress right now to offset closures and safety. You know, I think we're starting to figure out that transmission in schools is lower than we thought and that's really good.

But it is a vector for transmitting virus around the city and it triggered the 3 percent threshold. And they pulled the trigger and closed the schools. I might have closed the restaurants and bars first. I think that would have been a better strategy, prioritize keeping kids in school. But these are tough decisions. And, you know, that's what they made. I think it was probably wrong, but we'll see where it goes.

LEMON: Doctor, thank you. I'll see you soon.

REINER: My pleasure.

LEMON (on camera): Ahead, he lost the election, so why are Republicans still enabling Trump? And next, a vaccine is on the way. But just how soon could you actually get one? We're going to dig into that. You don't want to miss it. It's next.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ADM. BRETT GIROIR, HHS ASSISTANT SECRETARY: The end of the pandemic is in sight with the vaccines. We have two apparently highly effective vaccines that are safe and work in elderly. This is going to be our end game and we're so excited. That being said, this will get worse.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

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[23:30:00]

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LEMON (on camera): Promising news on vaccines from Pfizer and Moderna this week, OK? So, let me just take you through the timeline of how they're expected to roll out.

Pfizer will apply for FDA emergency use authorization on Friday. Sources telling CNN the FDA has set a meeting for their vaccine advisory committee in early December. The source says the FDA could issue emergency authorizations for both vaccines on the 10th. Vaccines can then immediately be sent to the states.

CDC advisory panel will review the data within one to two days after the FDA gives the green light. They'll issue recommendations about who should be getting vaccinated and who should be prioritized. Once that's done, Americans can start getting vaccinated.

So, joining me now to discuss, Tom Bollyky is here. He is the director of global health for the Council on Foreign Relations. He is also the author of "Plagues and the Paradox of Progress: Why the World is Getting Healthier in Worrisome Ways."

Good to see you again. Thanks for coming back tonight. I think you're going to offer some important information to our viewers, Tom. So, let's get right to it.

[23:34:59]

LEMON: So, you told me last night after the show that you have one big concern that you want to talk about when it comes to vaccines. Can you share that with my audience, please?

TOM BOLLYKY, DIRECTOR OF GLOBAL HEALTH, COUNCIL ON FOREIGN RELATIONS: Absolutely. So, as we talked about last night, science really has delivered -- these are excellent vaccines. The data -- we put them among the most effective vaccines that we've ever developed in record time.

But our ability to reap the benefits of these innovations depends on learning from the past failures in the U.S. of vaccinating adults. We have historically in this country been terrible at vaccinating adults.

In order to have the benefit even of an effective vaccine, you need to have at least 75 percent of Americans take it. For the seasonal flu that we take every year, we have never had more than half the population vaccinated, of adults each year. Most years, it's around 40 percent. Among high-risk adults, it's even lower, same with black Americans and Latinx populations.

So, even in the last pandemic that we've had, H1N1, where we had a vaccine, less than 25 percent of Americans took that vaccine.

So, it's really going to depend on our ability in the early months of prioritizing high-risk and highly vulnerable populations for this outreach and that will depend on preparing states to do that.

And we are not seeing that from the government. We are the midst of a contentious presidential transition and it is going to be important that we get this right.

LEMON: OK. So, everyone is, you know, there is a vaccine coming, there is a vaccine coming. Given what you have just said, if things continue to go the way they are, what are we looking at then when it comes to vaccinating enough people for this to even have an impact?

BOLLYKY: So, it will have an impact if we can get it to the populations that can benefit the most. As you mentioned, we'll start to see vaccines roll out in December. Right now, to do a bit of vaccine math for the audience, Pfizer has indicated that they'll have enough doses to vaccinate about 12.5 million Americans, Moderna about 10 million by the end of 2020.

That mostly will be taken up by frontline health workers. Everything that comes after that will start to go to people over age 65, high- risk individuals, essential workers.

The challenge we have there is that states need infrastructure to deliver them. They need resources. Right now, the CDC has only provided $200 million for states for the largest vaccine distribution program in world history.

We also, in what we saw in H1N1, is states didn't follow the guidelines from the CDC. They tended to give it to the locally, politically powerful and you saw great racial disparities in who was vaccinated and under-vaccination of frontline health workers.

If we don't monitor that process, we may see the same in this. We really have one shot at getting this right. If we botch the roll out of this vaccine and this tool for what it could do to change the trajectory of this pandemic, we really will have lost an opportunity.

LEMON: And that's why the transition and the current administration complying and helping the incoming administration, that's why it's so important.

Tom, I wanted you to get that message out, and I appreciate you bringing it to our audience. Thank you so much.

BOLLYKY: My pleasure.

LEMON: Thank you. He says Trump is everything Republicans hate. So why are they standing by him? I'm going to speak with Jeb Bush's former communications director.

Plus, what happens when Trump's conspiracies are acted on by local leaders? Well, in Michigan, votes get temporarily blocked.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[23:40:00]

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LEMON: So, "They Are What They Say They Hate. That's a new piece calling out President Trump and his party for being exactly what Republicans despise. And it's written by a Republican. It also slammed the GOP for enabling the president.

Here's just a snapshot of what it says about Trump. And I quote here, it says, "He is a censorious enemy of free speech and freedom of religion. He is trying to bring about an end of discussion by leading to an outrage industry that shuts down debate and manipulates voters. He is triggered, driven by hate, and trying to silence the voters. He is stealing America."

Wow! Well, why don't you say how you really feel, Tim Miller? He's the author of that, and he joins me. He's a writer-at-large for The Bulwark and a former communications director for Jeb Bush's presidential campaign.

Good to see you. I think the last time I saw you -- well, not in person. I saw you on, I think, Bill Maher's show. Nice job. It is good to see you out there -- TIM MILLER, AUTHOR, WRITER-AT-LARGE FOR THE BULWARK, FORMER COMMUNICATIONS DIRECTOR FOR JEB BUSH PRESIDENTIAL CAMPAIGN: Was it (INAUDIBLE)?

LEMON: Oh, maybe.

MILLER: At the national championship game.

LEMON: Oh, maybe it was. Who knows? Don't tell anybody about that. So listen, you now, before Donald Trump became president, did you ever think that you would be sitting for a TV interview saying Republicans have become what they hate?

[23:45:00]

MILLER: No, Don. We've all aged a lot the last five years. A lot has changed. It's certainly true for me. And look, here's the thing. I wanted to write this piece specifically -- this has been true for a while. But I want to write specifically about what is happening right now with Donald Trump refusing to concede this election because I think it's the clearest example of this phenomenon.

For years when I was in Republican politics, the conservative media and Republican politicians attacked the snowflakes, attacked the pampered college students who need a safe space. Ben Shapiro, the big right-wing media star, says famously that facts don't care about your feelings. Well, now the only thing that matters is Donald Trump's feelings.

(LAUGHTER)

MILLER: Donald Trump has lost this election. Everybody knows it. But he is a pampered snowflake who does not want to accept the truth. And because they don't want to hurt his feelings, because they don't want to hurt the feelings of his voters, Republican elected officials are going along with this charade, the same charade they attacked the left for, for decades, unfairly in a lot of ways.

And it's happening right now. They've become everything that they said that they hated. And it's extremely, I think, evident over the past few weeks.

LEMON: I've often wondered even before this, like, who are the real snowflakes, because everyone is so sensitive at least on the Trump side of this.

You know, in this piece, you also write -- you just talked about it a little bit, but I want you to delve into it more. You say Republicans and conservative commentators continue to enable the human embodiment of what they once decried. They do it because their crusade stopped being about anything other than causing their opponents pain a long time ago.

Phrases like snowflake and liberal tears and that sort of thing, is that what you believe motivates Republicans, just trying to hurt Democrats politically? MILLER: Yeah, there are two things happening right now. One is just

simple political pragmatism. The Republican voters want their elected officials to go along with this charade, so they're going along with it. Part of it is as simple as that, simple political cowardice.

But there's another element to this, Don, and that is that Donald Trump's rise to power was very gratifying for a lot of Republicans, a lot of people in the conservative media, because it was a finger in the eye of the left, of the media, of you, and they enjoyed that.

And Rich Lowry, The National Review, wrote an article before the election that said that Donald Trump's re-election would be a middle finger to the elites and the academia and to the media. At a deep visceral level, a lot of these folks enjoy that.

And so when they see all of us freaking out over the fact that Donald Trump won't concede the election, somewhere inside, even though it's causing pain to people who counted votes, even though there are death threats to folks -- you had the guest on the show earlier tonight who was accused of voter fraud, who is a real voter -- even though there's real human consequences, they like the fact that the people that they hate are annoyed by this and are suffering over this.

And so that drives this and that is just reality. And some of my old friends don't like to hear that, but it's just the truth. And if it wasn't true, you would see more of them speaking out right now, when Donald Trump can't hurt them anymore, because he's already lost --

LEMON: Yeah.

MILLER: -- and he's about to be -- he's about to be walked out of the White House in six weeks now. But they're not because they enjoy poking the finger in the eye of the left. It is as simple as that.

LEMON: Some of my old friends and yours. It's really sad but what are you going to do. Tim, it's a pleasure. We'll have you back when we have more time. Thank you so much. Good luck. It is good to see you.

MILLER: Any time, Don. Thanks for having me.

LEMON: I want to make sure that you know about my new podcast. It is called "Silence is Not an Option" where I'm taking on the hard conversations about being black in America. This week's episode is the past, present and future of black politics in America.

I'm going to speak with one of the first openly gay black man elected to Congress and Missouri's first black female representative. The episode drops in the morning. You can find it on Apple podcast or your favorite podcast app. We will be right back.

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[23:50:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) LEMON: So, a follow-up to a story from last night and it has a twist. You will recall that two Republican members of the Wayne County, Michigan canvassing board initially blocked certification of election results over dubious claims of voting irregularities in Detroit. After an uproar by voters, they changed their position and the votes were then certified.

CNN now finds that one of the Republican members was pushing conspiracy theories about the election on Facebook.

Let's bring in CNN's Donie O'Sullivan. Donie, good to see you. So, William Hartmann is one of the Republicans of the Wayne County board who temporarily blocked the certification of these election results in Michigan. You looked into social media postings, his social media postings. What did you find?

DONIE O'SULLIVAN, CNN REPORTER: Yeah, Don. I mean, his Facebook profile really tells the story of somebody who has been thoroughly misinformed through social media. But even going beyond that, he is really embracing misinformation. He was out there sharing it.

I want to show you this post from November 7th, this Saturday evening when the major news organizations declared Joe Biden president-elect.

[23:54:58]

O'SULLIVAN: Given Hartmann's role here as certifying votes in Michigan, this is almost a threat. He said, what will happen if it doesn't happen -- that he becomes the president -- once the official results are tallied? I wouldn't sell the farm yet.

Another post, where he is playing into this narrative being pushed by the president and some of his supporters, questioning the COVID fatalities, this post was even marked as false by Facebook. You'll notice there, Don, that this -- the link he posted was actually to OAN, a conservative outlet which President Trump has been embracing in a big way in the past few weeks as it pushes the attempts to undermine the election.

And one thing I want to mention here, Don, because it is very important, is that we also found some posts, racist posts, targeting President Obama from -- while he was president on Hartmann's page, including one that equated Obama to a Islamic terrorist. And that post was posted, we have the date, it was posted by Hartmann on July 9th, 2010.

Facebook only removed it today when we asked them about it. They took it down under their hate policies.

LEMON: Mm-hmm.

O'SULLIVAN: That's a post that's been up for decades. So, remember, next time you hear Mark Zuckerberg talking about that they've got their house in order, that they're getting things together, they have a catalogue of hate up on their platform that they are doing nothing about. LEMON: Or when you hear people on right-wing media say, oh, the left and the media calling these people racist. It's -- it's just awful and it's wrong. Well, the evidence is there. Not surprised. Donie, thank you. I appreciate it.

O'SULLIVAN: Thanks, Don.

LEMON: Thanks for watching, everyone. Coverage continues.

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