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Don Lemon Tonight
Rudy Giuliani With His Conspiracy Theory; Joe Biden Wins Georgia's Recount; President Trump to Revenge for his Loss; Outgoing President Hunkers Down; Election Results Can't be Reversed; COVID-19 Far from Over. Aired 10-11p ET
Aired November 19, 2020 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[22:00:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CHRIS CUOMO, CNN HOST: Bonus time, CNN Tonight with the big star, D. Lemon starts now.
DON LEMON, CNN HOST: That was quick. Man, what a day. What a day. That press conference, unbelievable. I -- but dangerous.
CUOMO: You know you're having a bad day when your face melting is the least of your problems.
LEMON: I was at -- I couldn't believe what I was watching. I was like, is this -- I couldn't believe -- I didn't know if to laugh or to cry, seriously. Because while it was funny, you know, about the whole face melting and all of that, but it's really dangerous. It's really, really dangerous and scary, especially if people buy into it.
CUOMO: I think you're right in the last part. But I see it differently in terms of its implication. I think today is the day the music died.
LEMON: Yes.
CUOMO: It's over. There is no rational argument to be made. The conspiracy theory of you're all in on it and I have proof but I'm going to show it to court when you've been to court 30 times --
LEMON: Right.
CUOMO: -- and never shown it and had a judge ask you to your face, he violated one of the immutable laws of conspiracy think. You never try to prove a conspiracy.
LEMON: Yes.
CUOMO: You try to make others disprove it.
LEMON: Well, I've seen lawyers on state TV and other places try -- you don't -- the media's not a court of law. You only present -- it makes absolutely no sense.
CUOMO: Right. LEMON: I got to talk about. We're not a court of law, but we're also
we didn't fall up -- just fall off the turnip trunk.
CUOMO: They're right. But remember a conspiracy only works in a kangaroo court of public opinion. It doesn't work in a court of law, their mistake.
LEMON: Yes.
CUOMO: Their fatal flaw is ever going to court.
LEMON: I agree with you. But there are a lot of people out there who still believe it and they are still trying to make their case, again, on conservative media and people believe it.
(CROSSTALK)
CUOMO: It may have political implications.
LEMON: Yes.
CUOMO: But I think people who sat by and were quiet with Rudy spreading that mess are going to be the most hurt by this down the line.
LEMON: And that's why I don't have Rudy on the show. But that's a whole another show.
CUOMO: But if you did --
LEMON: I'll talk to you.
CUOMO: -- your audience would be better informed as to what he's capable of in his mind.
LEMON: We don't have that much bronzer. Thank you, Chris.
CUOMO: I love you, D. Lemon.
LEMON: I love you too. I'll see you later.
This is CNN Tonight. I'm Don Lemon.
And what happened at that press conference that we were just talking about with Rudy Giuliani and the president's campaign legal team of liars is the most dangerous and it's scary and reprehensible thing I have seen.
I had to -- during the middle of it, I had to call up my producer -- it was early in the day. I called up Maria and said, are you watching this? This is nuts. And we watched part of it together, and we couldn't believe it. SNL can't -- couldn't do this justice. It is a massive fraud being perpetrated -- perpetrated on the American people and our democracy. Let's be honest about that.
They made every allegation from asinine to zany, a food truck full of ballots. Hugo Chavez? And they're being presented as truth to millions of people. Millions of people are believing them. It looked like a circus, but I mean, don't be fooled. It is an extraordinary danger to us. It really is.
If this circus tent catches fire, our democracy burns with it, the president-elect saying today that Americans are witnessing incredibly damaging messages about our democracy.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT-ELECT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: Let me choose my words here. I think that witnessing an incredible irresponsibility, incredibly damaging messages being sent to the rest of the world about how democracy functions. And I think it is -- well, I don't know his motive, but I just think it's totally irresponsible.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: Well, Rudy Giuliani has lost it, the president's attorney shamelessly blasting out more than 90 minutes of lies and conspiracy theories. And yes, to stick with the circus metaphor, he is the clown of your nightmares, mopping his sweaty face while his make-up or hair dye or whatever that is -- I don't know, whatever it is. It's running off, bronzer. What is that? I have no idea.
[22:05:07]
Listen to his wild story about witnesses he claims saw a food truck stuffed with ballots pull up to the Detroit center where ballots were being counted.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RUDY GIULIANI, PRESIDENT TRUMP'S LAWYER: They swear to is that at 4.30 in the morning a truck pulled up to the Detroit center where they were counting ballots. The people thought it was food, so they all ran to the truck. It wasn't food. It was thousands and thousands of ballots. And the ballots were in garbage cans. They were in paper bags. They were in cardboard boxes. And they were taken into the center. They were put on a number of tables.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: What a story. If it happened that would be crazy, but it didn't happen. So, it's just plain ole' regular crazy. The Washington Post finds the claim stems from a single affidavit from an alleged witness, a contract worker for a Dominion voting systems, who made a number of voting fraud claims, but in this case simply said food was brought in on two vans, but she never saw food coming out of those vans.
She went on to say she heard on the news hours after the last van left Michigan that had found over 100,000 more ballots. No garbage cans, no garbage bags, no paper bags, no ballots laid out on tables, just one allegation, which a judge in Michigan heard and found not to be credible. Not credible. And then this Giuliani's wild and totally unfounded accusations that Venezuela's Hugo Chavez, George Soros and antifa, of course antifa, are somehow involved in all of this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GIULIANI: You couldn't possibly believe that the company counting our vote with control over our vote is owned by two Venezuelans who were allies of Chavez, are present allies of Maduro with a company whose chairman is a close associate and business partner of George Soros, the biggest donor to the Democrat Party, the biggest donor to antifa and the biggest donor to Black Lives Matter.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: Well, let me tell you something. None of that is true. It's a QAnon conspiracy edition of choose your own adventure. Dominion has absolutely no corporate ties with George Soros or Venezuela. But that's not stopping Trump campaign attorney Sidney Powell for making a wild and totally unfounded claim that Dominion is somehow tied to Hugo Chavez.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SIDNEY POWELL, TRUMP'S ATTORNEY: The Dominion voting systems, the Smartmatic technology software and the software that goes in other computerized voting systems here as well, not just Dominion, were created in Venezuela at the direction of Hugo Chavez to make sure he never lost an election after one constitutional referendum came out the way he did not want it to come out.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: Here is a fact for you. Hugo Chavez has been dead for seven years. I can tell you all about Dominion and how it's not a Venezuelan company tied to Chavez, but maybe, maybe, I just need to show you. OK?
Because CNN's Lucy Kafanov, she is live for us at Dominion's headquarters in Denver, not Venezuela. Lucy, hello to you. You are right here in the United States where Dominion is reacting to this in no uncertain terms to this farce. Show me what you got.
LUCY KAFANOV, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Don, I should say I actually covered Hugo Chavez's death in Venezuela. So, I can say with certainly I'm coming to you live from Denver, Colorado. This building right here is the headquarters for Dominion voting systems.
They are a North American company. Their systems serve nearly 50 percent of U.S. voters across 28 states in Puerto Rico. And notably, a number of their systems were used in states that Donald Trump won in the 2016 election.
Now there have been so many fraudulent lies, inaccuracies, conspiracy theories thrown about around this company that they were forced to actually release a fact sheet debunking them. You can find it on their web site. They go point by point through all of the false claims.
But in the statement tonight the company says, and I quote, "the latest flood of absurdities is deeply concerning not just for Dominion but also for our dedicated state and local partners and the electoral process on the whole."
[22:10:03]
They go on to say Dominion is plainly a non-partisan American company with no ties to Venezuela or Cuba. Vote counts are conducted by county and state election officials, not Dominion. Our systems support tabulations by those officials alone.
Now, I should also add that their systems were certified and designed by the U.S. government. The company also says, Dominion did not switch votes, rig elections, or engage in any electoral fraud. In fact, their systems weren't even used in some of the contested districts, including Philadelphia, Milwaukee, and Dane, Wisconsin.
And perhaps the most notable -- that information was from Dominion. Perhaps the most notable statement that sort of goes against what the president had said comes from the homeland security's department Cyber secures -- Cybersecurity and Infrastructure Agency, again that's U.S. homeland security, not Venezuela, where they wrote in a statement last week that they determined there was no evidence that any votes or systems deleted, lost votes, changed votes or affected the votes in any way, that no votes were compromised.
Remember, Don, this was one of the most secure elections in American history. Don?
LEMON: Lucy with a live fact check for Denver, not Venezuela. Thank you, Lucy. I appreciate that.
Let's go on now and talk about Chris Krebs. Chris Krebs is a top cyber security official the president fired this week after he rejected Trump's claims of widespread voter fraud.
He says it was, quote, I'm quoting here, "the most dangerous one hour and 45 minutes of television in American history and possibly the craziest. If you don't know what I'm talking ability, you're lucky."
But there were some other parts of this that you really need to hear. And it made me wonder when I heard them say things, these things, if they have any self-awareness at all. Spoiler alert, they don't.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
POWELL: This is stunning, heartbreaking, infuriating and the most unpatriotic acts I can even imagine for people in this country to have participated in any way, shape or form.
JENNA ELLIS, TRUMP'S ATTORNEY: We are a nation of rules, not a nation of rulers. There is not someone that just gets to pick who the next president is outside the will of the American people.
GIULIANI: The most important thing here is that this has been a massive attack on the integrity of the voting system in the greatest democracy on earth. The people who did this have committed one of the worst crimes that I've ever -- I've ever seen or observed. One of the things we're the most proud of in this country, is that
we've been such a long-standing democracy based on the right to vote. They have trashed the right to vote. They've dishonored the right to vote.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: That happened, people. Little too ironic, isn't it, right? Peggy Noonan writing in the Wall Street Journal tonight, she says that this isn't a game. America isn't your play thing. How can any reasonable person in government tolerate all of this and go along with this? How can they do it?
And yet these are unserious, discredited people. But think about this. This was an official Republican National Committee event at RNC headquarters. They can't pretend that they're not in on it. While this president continues to subvert the will of the people, refusing to acknowledge the fact, the fact, Joe Biden is the president-elect.
It's not just the crazy circus of that press conference. He is brazenly trying to overturn our free and fair election. He's invited Republican state lawmakers from Michigan to the White House tomorrow, including state Senate Majority Leader Mike Shirkey and Speaker of the House Lee Chatfield.
They said whoever has the most votes after the results or certified will get the state's 16 electoral votes. In the wake of the current president's phone call to Wayne County board members, you've got to wonder what kind of pressure campaign they'll face from the president who is absolutely refusing to accept the fact that he lost?
A reporter I really admired asked President-elect Biden a great question today, and he had an even better answer.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
YAMICHE ALCINDOR, WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT, PBS NEWSHOUR: What do you make of the fact that the president is having these calls with Michigan county officials amid his bid to overturn the election?
[22:15:07]
He's going to be having also Michigan Republican legislatures at the White House tomorrow? Is anything he's doing making you rethink your strategy? I know you say that you don't want to have legal action right now. And what do you say to Americans, especially immigrant Americans who came to the United States looking for political stability and seeing all the things that the president is doing?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BIDEN: Hang on. I'm on my way. That's what I say to them. Not a joke.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: That was a great answer. I hope you're listening, Mr. current president, lame duck president, pardon me, the one who will leave office. But the chaos that this president wants is that he wants pay back, right, before he goes. That's what's happening. We've got all the latest on the plan to overturn the election, and this guy is in charge of it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GIULIANI: Did you all watch "My Cousin Vinnie." You know the movie? It's one of my favorite law movies because he comes from Brooklyn.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:20:01]
LEMON: So, a lot of news and breaking tonight. Georgia confirming Joe Biden's victory after a statewide hand recount, putting him ahead of President Trump by more than 12,000 votes. Officials saying the audit confirmed there was no widespread fraud.
Rudy Giuliani and President Trump's legal team are trying to claim otherwise, spreading wild, baseless allegations. I debunked a lot of that at the top of this show. But don't just take my word for it. I want you to take a look at their legal record since the election, OK?
The organization democracy docket tallying 31 losses for team Trump, all right? And a mere two wins, neither of which are related to fraud and then just today, a state judge in Pennsylvania rejecting an attempt to throw out more than 2,000 absentee ballots.
The Trump campaign withdrawing a federal lawsuit in Michigan that wanted to stop certification of votes in Wayne County. And Arizona state judge throwing out a GOP lawsuit seeking an audit of votes cast there and a federal judge in Georgia tossing a lawsuit from a Republican elector who alleged fraud.
People, come on, you all. Joining me now is CNN's chief political correspondent Dana Bash, and CNN contributor and Republican election lawyer Ben Ginsberg. It's just -- good evening.
DANA BASH, CNN CHIEF POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Hi, Don.
LEMON: I just don't want people to be played like this because, Dana, there are a lot of people who believe this.
BASH: A lot.
LEMON: A lot, right? Ben, let me start with you because I want to ask you about this breaking news. You're the attorney here. Georgia pulling Joe Biden's win. The results should be certified by Friday but the Trump team can request another recount. Legally they can do that. Would that actually change anything, Ben?
BENJAMIN GINSBERG, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: No, not in the least. The recount that they would request is taking all the ballots and moving them through the high-speed scanners. So, that -- that's not going to change anything from the hand audit they've already done.
LEMON: OK. So, Dana, you're learning about why President Trump is fighting this election so forcedly. And it sounds like it's all about personal revenge. Tell us what you know.
BASH: It's one of the reasons.
LEMON: OK.
BASH: There are lots of reasons. But one of the reasons I was told today by a source familiar with the president's thinking is that he told an ally that he really understands that he lost. He's not going to win. But that he wants to do to them, meaning the Democrats, what they did to him.
So, let me translate what he meant by that. What he means is he felt that the Democrats chipped away at the legitimacy of his election four years ago by launching the Russia investigation, the dossier that became public, so on and so forth. And so he says I'm going to do it to them now.
So, that is why -- well, that is one of the reasons why he is not allowing the transition funds to be released from the GSA so that the Biden transition can get started. And most importantly, and I think the thing that is the most scary, frankly, for our democracy is that that is one of the reasons why he feels comfortable hammering away at the completely baseless notion that there was fraud, mass fraud, in this election.
And the reason why, you know, you have Rudy Giuliani and the people who were, you know, kind of flanking him today is because those are the only ones who will fight the fight that the president says that he wants fought. They're the ones willing to go out and say the things that everybody else in the Republican Party is probably rolling their eyes at.
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: And nobody else would do it.
BASH: Some of them are finally -- finally some are coming out and saying -- elected officials are coming out and saying enough already after that press conference.
LEMON: Dana, Dana, Dana, let me ask you this. What do you think the president was doing as he was sitting there today watching this, because you know he was watching. Rudy Giuliani has black stuff running down his face. He's sweating like he's in a sauna. You know, the, all these other QAnon people and what have you. He likes people to look the part, dress the part. You know what I mean, right?
BASH: He does.
LEMON: What do you think he's doing?
BASH: But he also likes people that -- he likes people to go to the mattresses for him and to end --
LEMON: OK.
BASH: -- to do whatever -- whatever it takes to argue whatever it is he wants them to argue. And in this case, it is something that there's clearly no evidence for. But this is why he is still standing by Rudy Giuliani for now.
[22:35:01]
We'll see if that changes after the performance as you described it because the president has been known to be a bit fickle on these things.
LEMON: Yes. I'm just saying, Ben, I don't care how big a supporter of anyone you are, if you see that you're like --
GINSBERG: Yes.
LEMON: So. Yes, and Rudy Giuliani, Ben, is talking as if Trump, the Trump campaign, isn't getting their day in court with these accusations when really in reality they are losing. They're withdrawing their cases in droves. They're saying the exact opposite at that podium as to what's really playing out legally, what's really important.
GINSBERG: Yes, that's absolutely true. They've lost post-election. They've lost virtually everything they tried pre-election. But here's the way this is going to fall apart with Republicans.
LEMON: OK.
GINSBERG: What Rudy Giuliani said today about nationwide fraud would impact not only the president's election. You know what he's trying to do with that. But if it's a fraudulent election, then none of the Republicans who were elected this time can stand in office because their elections all get thrown out also if it's fraudulent.
And when it comes to the state certifications that he's trying to hold up, you don't just certify a presidential race.
LEMON: Right.
GINSBERG: You certify every race on the ballot. So, the Michigan legislative leaders who were going to the White House will eventually have to explain to their members why their brilliant political careers have come to a grinding halt because they can't be sworn into office next January unless the results are certified. So, they're starting to hurt the Republicans pretty badly themselves. That's why the strategy fails.
LEMON: So, Ben, it's not going to work, right, in the end?
GINSBERG: No.
LEMON: No. Just prolong the inevitable. GINSBERG: It will be a painful process, but it's not going to work.
LEMON: I have to remember -- I have to remember, both of you, that it's like election night when we -- Dana, we would -- you know, we talked about this. We talked to our experts here. And they said, you know, at the beginning of the night, it can look this way and then as the absentee votes are counted and all of that, this is how it could play out. And it turns out it played out that way.
I also have to remember that I said and that people said this is going to get worse before it gets better, right? Because the president is so angry, he doesn't want to leave the office. And Ben, I thank you for summing it up. It is prolonging the inevitable, it's not going to work. But he can do a lot of danger in the 50 or so days that he's still around.
BASH: And Ben's old boss, Mitt Romney said that today with Axelrod today in a very candid interview, he said that what he's most worried about isn't so much the Biden transition is what Donald Trump is doing now.
LEMON: Now.
BASH: Between now and the inauguration day.
LEMON: Yes. Thank you both. I'll see you both soon. I appreciate it.
So, you heard Dana. One big part of it, revenge. That's what people close to the president are telling CNN. What else does he really want? The co-author of "The Art of the Deal" is going to weigh in next.
[22:30:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: So, here's what sources are telling CNN, that President Trump knows he's lost and that his attempts to undermine the election are about getting revenge on Democrats. The president said to believe that it's fair game for him to not recognize Joe Biden as the president- elect even though Hillary Clinton conceded the election that night and then gave a speech the next day in 2016.
So, joining me now is Tony Schwartz, co-author of "Trump: The Art of the Deal" and the author of "Dealing With the Devil: My Mother, Trump and Me." Wow. Now that is a fascinating title.
Tony, good to see you. You must be just riveted by watching the turn of events over the past two weeks or so. Good evening to you.
We've learned that President Trump is out for pay back. You say he can't cope with losing. It's all about him. Democracy be damned. Is that what you believe?
TONY SCHWARTZ, AUTHOR, THE ART OF THE DEAL: A 100 percent. And I think that in this case, it's true for certain periods of time that he is trying to exact revenge. That would rational -- or rationally irrational. But there's a whole other period of -- there are whole other periods of time where he is delusional, where he is saying to himself in his paranoid way, they stole it from me, because that's at the heart of who he is as well.
LEMON: He really believes that? Come on, Tony.
SCHWARTZ: He goes in and out of that. I mean, I really have come to believe that, that he moves between reality and his own reality or his fictional reality. And I'm quite certain that he's doing that now. Believe me, when he gets on the phone with Rudy Giuliani, I guarantee you that they are pumping each other up with evidence -- concocted evidence -- that the election wasn't being stolen from them.
LEMON: It's like yes, yes, yes, right, yes, got it, got it. Yes, I can see that.
SCHWARTZ: Can you believe it?
LEMON: Can you believe it? So, we're now 16 days since the election. Does he realize he's only stretching out the reality of his loss, as I said, he's just prolonging or delaying the inevitable? That keeps, you know, he keeps losing court cases, recounts, certifications every single day, Tony.
SCHWARTZ: In his lucid moments, again, he realizes it. But the core feeling that Trump has right now is humiliation.
[22:35:01]
Think about the fact that this guy, who are craves, who lives off being in the public eye, being out talking, hasn't been seen for, you know, since the election. Why?
LEMON: Say that again, please. Say that again for the people in the back. I've been thinking that the entire time. The person who -- I've watched -- Tony, hold on. I've watched the coronavirus task force briefing today, the first one since July. They could not hold a briefing without him wanting to bowguard (Ph) his way to the front and get all of the attention. But today, he was not there. It says a lot about his ego and how he is feeling right now. Sorry to cut you off, but go on.
SCHWARTZ: No, I think the real -- so, yes, so he's in humiliation. And in humiliation he literally doesn't want to be seen because he feels worthless. His father said it to him, you either win or you lose, son. If you lose, you're a loser, you're nothing, you might as well not exist.
And that is wired into his neurophysiology. So, that is what's going on. At the same time, yes, we all know that this is going to end and that Biden will take office. Here's why I'm not calm and relaxed, because Trump has successfully passed on his authoritarian instincts and his willingness to lie about anything to people like Lindsey Graham and Ted Cruz and Marco Rubio, and God knows his children.
And I think that democracy remains in deep, deep peril even when Biden gets elected. We have to go -- we have to -- to protect democracy is really the challenge of the next four years, not because Biden will undermine it, but because Trump and his people will continue to fight against it in every imaginable way.
LEMON: Here's what, what a lot of people haven't really figured out when we talk about the man behind the curtain, right, the Oz effect to this. So, you helped him -- you helped him create this mythology of the great businessman. The other folks helped him. I know, that's all right.
The other folks helped him create this mythology of like the great business guy, you're fired. And whether they're just creating things around him because, because they needed someone, right, to play that role.
This is the exact opposite. No one is creating this around Trump. He cannot affect any sort of change to what's happening now because this isn't something -- this isn't something that someone else built up and he just got to play the role. Do you see what I'm saying?
SCHWARTZ: I do. Karma is a bitch. I don't know how else to say it.
LEMON: Well, you just said it. I've got to ask you about this, this is some breaking news. Do you want to respond to that real quick or do you want to go on to the other news? Or was that your response?
SCHWARTZ: Which response?
LEMON: What I just said about creating. But let's move on. So, Ivanka Trump is responding to a New York Times report tonight that says that two separate New York State fraud investigations in President Trump and his businesses are looking into tax write-offs of millions of dollars in consulting fees, some that appear to have gone to Ivanka Trump.
Now, she says it is harassment motivated by politics. But clearly, the Trump family has real concerns about what happens when they are not in power.
SCHWARTZ: And rightfully so. I mean, between the U.S. attorney and the district attorney in New York City -- I'm sorry, the district attorney and the -- what are the two? Cyrus Vance and Letitia James is what I'm saying.
LEMON: Right.
SCHWARTZ: They have got a lot on this guy. And I think if they are dogged in continuing to pursue it, the justifiable, the fair outcome will be that this man is indicted, this man is convicted, this man goes to prison. And I do believe that even though he's avoided it all his life, that Trump is genuinely concerned about that. As well he ought to be.
LEMON: I don't know if that will happen. But I mean, I'm sure he's concerned but they'll let a former president go to -- if he's indeed found guilty. Interesting. Did you want to say something? Or I'm going to go on.
SCHWARTZ: That's what I think. Listen -- hey, Trump has spent four years breaking norms. The norm that a president doesn't end up in prison has every reason to be broken as well. We've never had a president who has committed as many crimes as Trump has.
[22:40:00]
LEMON: We'll see if that indeed plays out. Tony Schwartz, thank you, sir. Always a pleasure.
SCHWARTZ: Thank you.
LEMON: So, Trump won't let the transition begin. But Joe Biden isn't letting that top stop him. I'm going to speak with one of his transition team advisers, that's next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: So, while the president and his lying legal team are trying to overturn the election, the President-elect Joe Biden holding a virtual meeting with 10 governors, Democrats and Republicans, focusing on the incoming administration's top priorities, the pandemic and the need for a real partnership between states and the federal government. Biden also speaking out about the consequences of the transition still being stalled.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BIDEN: If nothing fundamentally changes between now and beginning of February, we're likely to lose up to 400 -- total of 400,000 lives, another 150,000 lives.
[22:45:07]
So, it's real. Whether it's that, it gets to 360, whatever it is, it's real. And there is no excuse not to share the data and let us begin to plan because on day one, it's going to take us time if we don't have access to all this data, it's going to put us behind the eight ball by a matter of a month or more. And that's lives.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: Joining me now, Gene Sperling who is advising the Biden transition team and is a former director of the National Economic Council for Presidents Obama and Clinton.
Gene, good to see you. Thanks for joining us. really important conversation.
GENE SPERLING, DIRECTOR, NATIONAL ECONOMIC COUNCIL FOR PRESIDENTS OBAMA & CLINTON: Thanks, Don. Thanks for having me.
LEMON: Yes, absolutely. So, Dr. Anthony Fauci says that he hasn't spoken to Biden's team yet, but he wants to. That is a critical meeting. Actual lives are at stake, as the president-elect says here. SPERLING: You know, absolutely. I'm an old man. I've been involved in
transitions since 1992. People are normally on their best behavior. To have this unprecedented resistance to a transition in the middle of a pandemic and an economic crisis is not just unprecedented, it's so dangerous.
And you know, President Biden and Ron Klain have made very clear that the inability to get the information, to make sure that if you have a vaccine that they can be distributed, could be the matter of tens, hundreds of thousands of lives.
But as an economic adviser, I also want to say that the economic emergency is also immense. Do you know that on December 26th, the day after Christmas, there may be up to 12 million people who will lose their unemployment insurance? The eviction moratorium sunsets on December 31st.
There could be 10, 12 million people who have difficulty paying the rent who could now be subject to eviction, to homelessness, to being on the street after Christmas in the cold and on small businesses. One in five small businesses are closed. And I would imagine half of them fear what can happen to them with the second wave of the pandemic.
You know there's been problems in that program, the PPP program. Can you imagine if the Biden team can't get in and get the information from treasury and the small business administration? I mean, you're talking about small businesses closing. You're talking about families being evicted. You're talking about millions of people not getting the check they need for basic expenses.
So, this is both a health crisis and an economic crisis and a terrible time to have such an unprecedented obstruction of a smooth transition.
LEMON: Listen, and everyone is nervous right now, especially small business owners, people who, you know --
SPERLING: Sure.
LEMON: -- people who have been out of work for the past eight, nine months. It's frightening. So, listen, the president-elect facing questions about potential economic shutdown because of the surge in COVID-19. Watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BIDEN: I am not going to shut down the economy, period. I'm going to shut down the virus. That's what I'm going to shut down.
UNKNOWN: So that's --
(CROSSTALK)
BIDEN: I'll say it again. No national shutdown. No national shutdown because every region, every area, every community can be different. And so, there's no circumstance which I can see would require total national shutdown. I think that would be counterproductive. (END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: Well, I mean, it's completely opposite. Remember when we had -- I think it was the chief of staff, Mark Meadows or someone, one of those guys saying we're not -- we're never going to contain the virus. We're not going to ever shut it down.
And Biden stressing no shutdown, but he's going to shut down the virus. We are though, I must say, seeing schools closing because of the surge and at many places, restaurants and businesses. You know, certain businesses, gyms remain open. Do we have our priorities straight here, Gene?
SPERLING: Well, look, the main thing I would say -- and I think a lot of economists on both sides would agree. There just isn't this tradeoff between opening the economy and dealing with the coronavirus. I think that I am like tens of millions of people out there. We're not going out into restaurants regardless of whether they're open or not because we're worried about our safety.
So, if you do not have the confidence for people to be safe, you're never going to get the foot traffic, the demand. So, there's not a tradeoff. If there's anything we should be learning is that you must contain the virus in order to open the economy. They are not a tradeoff. It is one in the same.
And I think that -- and I think Joe Biden is making that very clear. And look, you know, nobody is preventing me from going to travel or go someplace now, but most families aren't doing it because they're scared.
[22:50:02]
You have to control the virus. And these small businesses, what they want is some help, as you said, Don. You know, the PPP, the small business program, do you know when it ended? August 8th, over three months ago.
LEMON: Yes.
SPERLING: But even if, and I don't think, I don't know if there will be a stimulus, but even if there was, can you imagine with all the problems its had, with all the failure to actually help black and brown-owned small businesses, if the Biden team can't even get into the building to get the information to see how you might get the money to the small businesses, to the states for unemployment, for the food relief and to make sure money is going -- not just to the renters but to the landlords so that nobody is being evicted or foreclosed on.
LEMON: Yes. Gene, important conversation and we're going to have you back for more. Thank you. You be safe. And if I don't see you have a happy Thanksgiving.
SPERLING: Yes. Thank you so much.
LEMON: All right. SPERLING: Thanks for having me.
LEMON: We'll be right back.
[22:55:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: So, breaking news in the COVID-19 pandemic. The United States recording more than 185,000 new cases just today, the highest one-day total since the pandemic broke out. And now, just a week away from Thanksgiving, the CDC advising Americans not to travel this holiday, instead to spend turkey day only with people in your household.
And as hard as it is for families to hear this, the CDC is saying that someone who has not been living in your house for 14 days, such as a college student or a military member, is not a household member. So keep a distance of six feet, wear masks indoors, celebrate outdoors if possible.
I want you to listen to the advice of Dr. Anthony Fauci, what he just gave to Chris.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ANTHONY FAUCI, DIRECTOR, NATIONAL INSTITUTE OF ALLERGY AND INFECTIOUS DISEASES: You take a look at your family and say, do I have a person there who's an elderly person, a person with an underlying medical condition that might put them at an increased risk of a severe outcome if they get infected?
Do I want to take that risk right now, or do I want to say maybe the prudent thing to do for now is just pull back and just keep it within the family unit that you live with instead of having people from the outside come in?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: And the numbers don't lie on how bad the pandemic is. I want you to look at the map of the country, practically all red, 44 states showing an increase in new cases over the past week. More than 252,000 Americans have died from the virus. And we have a record number of hospitalizations due to COVID-19, more than 79,000 people.
So, Joe Biden won the election by millions of popular votes, by 74 electoral votes but Trump is trying to overturn it. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
