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Don Lemon Tonight

Joe Biden Introduces Top National Security And Foreign Policy Team; U.S. Reports 171,000-Plus New Cases And 2,100-Plus Deaths; Flynn Pardon Under Discussion At White House; Trump Has Said He Has Absolute Right To Pardon Himself; Trump Expected To Join Giuliani At PA State Senate Hearing; CNN Speaks With Former Member Of The Proud Boys. Aired 11p-12a ET

Aired November 24, 2020 - 23:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[23:00:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DON LEMON, CNN HOST: So I'm getting kicked out right now. But it's OK, because there's nobody better to kick me out than Laura Coates.

(LAUGHTER)

LEMON: Laura, hello to you. So, today --

(LAUGHTER)

LAURA COATES, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: I'm not kicking you out. I'm setting you free. I'm setting you free, not kicking you out.

LEMON: OK. Look, it's --

COATES: You have to go home. You can't stay here right now.

(LAUGHTER)

LEMON: You don't have to go home, but you got to get out of here.

(LAUGHTER)

LEMON: So, it was -- it was so weird. It was an emotional day for people just watching the announcement of cabinet appointees. What is going on in this country?

COATES: I mean I was emotional at one point. And I thought to myself, I feel like we've all been in a really bad relationship and then the next person who calls you back is the greatest man who you ever dated in your whole life. I guess -- he said hello and good-bye. That is what you almost hear.

But, of course, this is a very, very qualified group of people. And, you know, we are so accustomed, it seems. I think one of your guests talked about the want ads (ph). I don't think it's quite that bad.

But the idea of rubbing elbows seemed to replace actual experience and now we have a time when that seems to be coming back, right? I do wonder how it's going to bode long term because a lot of these people are so familiar that people might think that it's kind of Obama 2.0 and that's not everybody's cup of tea for some reason.

LEMON: Yeah, but, listen, when you think about the economy that we had under the Obama administration, that it's continued on into the Trump administration, rescuing us from --

COATES: Yeah.

LEMON: -- the great recession. The stock market, if you -- the stock market is not an indicator, right, of how average Americans are doing. But for Trump, it's been sort of a barometer, right, to him. He loves to tout, well, the economy -- the stock market is great. The stock market was great under President Obama.

COATES: Yes.

LEMON: He kept it going. Unemployment -- the same thing. So, maybe people are looking for an Obama 2.0 and that is what they got. Maybe that's why they feel like a burden has been lifted off their shoulders. I don't know. I'm not one to judge. I'm just wondering and asking the question.

COATES: Well, you know, it is part of the campaign platform, to build back better, so this is essentially a restorative administration.

LEMON: Yeah.

COATES: We will see how it goes. But, you know, I have to tell you, I was very excited to see people excited about watching the news and press conferences again. It didn't have people running to change the station when a president-elect came on because their kids might hear something.

There was something about the idea of hearing people who were talking about their service to the nation. That means we have been really starved for a long time at this point.

So I have to say it was a good, optimistic day for a lot of people. And I also think people right now are just -- they are in their houses, tired in sweat suits, and anything gives them joy.

(LAUGHTER)

LEMON: Well, class is back, because it is time for Laura.

(LAUGHTER)

COATES: All right. Well, thank you, Don Lemon. You don't have to go home, remember, but this is CNN TONIGHT, and I am Laura Coates.

President-elect Joe Biden is introducing his incoming national security and foreign policy team, a diverse group of men and women with years of experience. And with a transition formally underway, the White House is signing off on Biden receiving the president's daily brief of classified intelligence.

Also tonight, with the COVID-19 pandemic raging out of control, this is the 15th consecutive day of record hospitalizations. More than 88,000 people in hospitals right now.

I want to bring in CNN White House correspondent John Harwood and senior political analyst Ron Brownstein. I am so glad that you're both back. But those numbers --

RON BROWNSTEIN, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: Hi, Laura.

COATES: -- are giving everyone a pause. Hello and good evening.

[23:04:58]

COATES: Let me start with you, John, because CNN is learning tonight that President Trump is considering pardoning his old familiar former national security adviser, Michael Flynn. What can you tell us about this?

JOHN HARWOOD, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, this is exactly what we have been expecting, Laura. The president has signalled privately and publicly that he may do this. Don't know that the final decision has been made but it's certainly on the table. The president is interested in pardoning people who might have information that could hurt him.

The justice department under President Trump, Bill Barr, has been trying to walk back the prosecution of Michael Flynn. Judge Sullivan in Washington has kind of put the brakes on that. But one way for the president to get around this is it to pardon Michael Flynn.

There is also Paul Manafort, who, of course, was sentenced to prison, was accused by Robert Mueller of having agreed to cooperate then lying to investigators. He got additional prosecution.

You could see a pardon for Paul Manafort, as well, as well as other people in the president's inner circle, those who might have legal exposure, not to exclude the president himself. I don't know that he actually -- Laura, you would be able to speak to this better than I.

BROWNSTEIN: Yeah.

HARWOOD: So whether he would have the legal authority to pardon himself. But you can bet that if he concludes that he does and he thinks he needs it, he would do it.

COATES: Well, of course, a long list of people we can include in that, as well, including maybe even pre-emptive pardons. You named people who already had these convictions. But what about those who might be investigated right now? So, that is part of it, as well, John.

And also, we know that a record number of Americans are hospitalized with the coronavirus. Look at this graph on the screen. We got more than 2,100 deaths just reported today. President-elect Biden has plans for January 20th, but we all know that President Trump is still in charge for another 57 days. What is his plan to do something about this? We cannot take 57 more days of this.

HARWOOD: Well, I don't think, Laura, the president, the current president has much of a plan for this. He has pretty much checked out of the job. He is focused on trying to kick up dust still about the election, which Joe Biden has won, and the transition is underway.

But he has not shown any interest in actually doing the job as president, very few events on the schedule, none on the schedule posted tomorrow, hasn't taken questions from reporters in three weeks.

And I think now that the transition is officially underway, certainly the career people in the government and even some of the people who are serving under President Trump political appointees, I think there is going to be a gravitational pull of taking cues from the incoming Biden team rather than a president who doesn't seem very interested in the pandemic or other aspects of the job.

COATES: I mean, Ron, there is a tragedy in that. I mean, you expect somebody --

BROWNSTEIN: Yes.

COATES: -- anybody to run through the tape. Even when you see somebody else has gone to the finish line first, you still got to run through. You are still the president of the United States.

And on that notion, president-elect Biden says that he is going to focus on the coronavirus, on immigration, on climate change, all within those first very valuable 100 days.

BROWNSTEIN: Mm-hmm.

COATES (on camera): He also said this, Ron. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT-ELECT OF THE UNITED STATES: The most important thing, I think, is while I do -- while we try to do all of this, focus on those folks who are always -- when crisis hits, they're the first ones hit, and when recovery comes, they're the last one in. That's basically minority communities, who've been hurt badly.

Making sure we get the aid that was voted on in the House and passed by the Senate in some cases, and much of which has not passed, get the kind of help to keep people afloat.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COATES (on camera): I mean, it is pretty ambitious, Ron. You know that Biden --

BROWNSTEIN: Yeah. COATES: -- in fact needs Republicans to get this done. How is he going to do that when you have most who won't even acknowledge that he is, in fact, the next president of the United States?

BROWNSTEIN: That is an ominous signal, Laura.

COATES: Mm-hmm.

BROWNSTEIN: I mean, first of all, the current president is AWOL, under fire. I mean, there is no other way to describe it. It is the equivalent of a captain of a navy ship, you know, deserting his post in battle and basically leaving the crew to fend for themselves while he stews in his state room about, you know, how to protect himself and what is his next career plan.

And the president is doing this without a peep of protest from Republicans in congress. And as you note, very few of them have stepped out and opposed even his efforts to undermine and subvert the election. That gives a sense of the magnitude of the challenge that Joe Biden faces going forward.

The fact that Mitch McConnell, who would be the Senate majority leader and will at least be the Senate minority leader, has not said a word to acknowledge Biden's victory, has not said a word to press Trump to be more proactive in dealing with the virus.

[23:10:00]

BROWNSTEIN: You know, it was to my colleague, Major Garrett at National Journal, who Mitch McConnell said his principal legislative goal was to make Barack Obama a one-term president. We will see whether he can rise above that at a moment when the country is facing, you know, one of its greatest crises since World War II.

COATES: A commander-in-chief, AWOL in the line of fire. What an image. Thank you both, John and Ron. I appreciate that.

BROWNSTEIN: Thank you.

COATES: I want to bring in former White House Communications Director Anthony Scaramucci. Welcome to the show, Anthony. I am glad you're here tonight. How are you doing?

ANTHONY SCARAMUCCI, FORMER WHITE HOUSE COMMUNICATIONS DIRECTOR, SKYBRIDGE CAPITAL FOUNDER AND PARTNER: Hi, Laura. Happy Thanksgiving.

COATES: Thank you. You know, we just heard from Ron Brownstein and John Harwood about this idea, of this very ominous for voting feeling people have. And you know the president very well. We are told that he is not travelling to places like Mar-a-Lago for Thanksgiving because he says he wants to get things done.

You heard Ron talked about him perhaps being AWOL in the line of fire. What do you think he is actually planning to accomplish or get done over the next 57 days?

SCARAMUCCI: I more or less agree with everything that Ron and John were saying. But just remember, from the president's lens, looking through his prism, he is far from AWOL. He is going to be diligently focused on his self-interests over the next 55 days. Basically, what would that mean? It will mean pardons. It will mean lining himself up for speaking events, media activity. It will be a whole host of things that he is doing.

What he won't be doing is caring about the American people. I think what is astonishing to Republicans is that he is probably not spending a lot of time on those two Senate races in Georgia.

So, Laura, it is really about him, and while he might be AWOL doing the interest of the American people or serving the American people, he is not AWOL serving himself. Trust me on that. He is extremely focused on what's in it for him over the next month and a half to two months.

COATES: Well, I mean, selfishness is a quality that you simply don't want in a public servant. It seems to be (INAUDIBLE) as I'm sure you agree.

But you know, speaking of the idea of pardons, we're actually told that Michael Flynn is one of the multiple people that Trump is considering pardoning. Who else might be on that list? Keeping in mind what that team of -- as you say, there is some self-interest and motivation here. Who might be on that list to round out that along with Flynn?

SCARAMUCCI: Well, again, as John said, anybody that has interest or information related to the president. The commutation of the Roger Stone sentence was an example of that.

Obviously, his family members will be open game. I certainly think he is going to pardon himself. He has no downside to pardoning himself. The worst that can happen is it's challenged, it goes up to the Supreme Court, it's somehow revoked, but it may not be revoked.

And so if you think about the optionality of that, he puts the chips on the table. If it doesn't work, it is a big deal. But if it works, you know, it's transformational for him and it is also transformational for the country. He may even need a constitutional amendment to set in place power to restrict the president on a going forward basis.

So I don't see why he would stop at just pardoning friends or family members. I think pardoning himself has got to be on the table, Laura. You got to think about this stuff the way President Trump thinks about it.

COATES: Well, you know, I'm sure he is probably going to try. But, you know, the idea that if at first you don't succeed, having to go to the Supreme Court and knocking on their chambers might not be the most successful strategy. But you're right, that he, I'm sure, has the novelty aspect involved there.

But, you know, taking of trying to make your way up and the worst thing that can happen for litigation or appeals, I mean, the Trump campaign has sent, as you know, more than a dozen fundraising e-mails just since the GSA even ascertain Biden's win last night, more than a dozen. Is that why he is really still pretending the election isn't over, so he can keep raising these funds?

SCARAMUCCI: Yes, but I also think there is a grievance thing there and there is a conspiratorial thing there that he has figured out. He is literally like a duraflame log for the fires of conspiracy. And so he knows a lot of his supporters are into this whole conspiracy nonsense. And so he is figuring out a way if he can take that with him outside of the White House.

He said it in 2016. He said, well, you know, if I lose, I am going to tell everybody the election was rigged and there is no way for a guy like me to win. And then, of course, he won. And so now, he is taking that sort of branding and repurposing it in 2020.

Remember, when he goes out there, for some reason, even though he was a billionaire's kid or half a billionaire's kid and grew up with a silver spoon, he has played the victim for the last 40 years of his life.

[23:15:06]

SCARAMUCCI: He has played it pretty well. He has got a group of people who will follow him around and chant, yeah, you're the victim and so are we. And so those people unfortunately fall into the traps of conspiracy. I think they will carry that stuff with him, which is the reason why he is not conceding, Laura.

This is all part of that whole marketing (INAUDIBLE). He has figured out 25 to 50 million people following him around. That a very lucrative potential business for him going forward.

COATES: You call him a duraflame log. As long as he hasn't become a Democratic arsonist, right? Anthony Scaramucci, thank you for tonight.

SCARAMUCCI: He has already tried to do that. He has tried to do that --

COATES: We'll see.

SCARAMUCCI: -- but we have a flame retardant government, thank god, Laura. The government is flame retardant.

COATES: Well, fingers crossed. We will see about that. We are heading into the Thanksgiving weekend, as we know. Thank you, Anthony Scaramucci.

SCARAMUCCI: That's true.

(LAUGHTER)

COATES (on camera): I appreciate it. And as I'm crossing my fingers right now, thinking about that flame retardant government and being thankful for that, we know that millions of people this Thanksgiving weekend are traveling against CDC advice. Is there any way to convince Americans to do what needs to be done?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BIDEN: I hope that we're going to be able to have a united voice on the need to mask, socially distance, testing and tracing. They're critical, critical pieces to dealing with bringing down this virus in a more manageable place. The words of a president matter.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

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[23:20:00]

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COATES: Coronavirus is worsening around the country tonight. There are more than 171,000 new cases today, and we have added over 500,000 new cases since we hit the 12 million mark on just Saturday. And over 2,100 people lost their lives just today, the most since early May.

Joining me now is CNN medical analyst Dr. Jonathan Reiner, the director of the Cardiac Catheterization Program at George Washington University Hospital.

Dr. Reiner, I got to tell you, just since we spoke yesterday, these numbers -- I mean, the 15th day that set a record for the number of Americans hospitalized with COVID-19 -- I mean, things are bad now and when you add in the anticipating crush from people going ahead with Thanksgiving plans anyway, I mean, can you help me?

Make one last ditch effort here tonight to talk people into staying home, who might be thinking about hitting the road even as early as tomorrow.

JONATHAN REINER, CNN MEDICAL ANALYST, DIRECTOR OF CARDIAC CATHETERIZATION PROGRAM AT GEORGE WASHINGTON UNIVERSITY HOSPITAL: Yeah, there is a tremendous amount of virus out all throughout the country and now is not the time to get sick.

It is not the time to get sick because, first of all, our hospitals are filling rapidly. There is not a lot of room in hospitals. We are really straining our capacity to care for critically ill people.

And why would you want to get sick when a vaccine is right around the corner? Now is the time to hunker down because help is really on the way. For the first time, in the last year, I really believe that in a couple months, things are really going to start to change in this country. And as we get into the spring and summer, it is going to start to feel more like normal. I think we're going to baseball games this summer.

COATES: Mm-hmm.

REINER: So, stay safe now so we can do that. All the hard work we put in throughout this awful year will pay off. So just sit tight, stay home.

COATES: You know there is that concern the people have now, this joy of the prospect of vaccines out there, but the idea of a vaccine versus it actually vaccinating you and then having that four-week window between the first, perhaps the second dose, this has to be taken seriously. You can't just get lax right now.

Right now, you even have Biden and his team finally having access to critical information on COVID. He said tonight that he hopes that vaccinations can even begin before he takes office. But will they be in time to stop this situation we have right now from becoming even more catastrophic? Is the existence of a vaccine enough?

REINER: No, which is why we have to mask up and hunker down. So there are over 2,000 deaths today, as you said, the most since the peak in the spring during the first wave. But remember that deaths are a lagging indicator, so they lag initial infections by about two to three weeks.

Two to three weeks ago, we were just approaching about 100,000 cases per day. So what that means is that two to three weeks from now, that mortality rate that again is about 2,000 cases now per day, will be over 3,000 people per day, 3,000 people per day, Laura.

COATES: That's shocking.

REINER: So, the only way -- yeah, and maybe even getting closer to 4,000. So now is not the time to go running around the country. As we said last night, I'm really worried that people are going to inadvertently hurt people that they really love, most vulnerable in their families. So, if you haven't really, you know, left your home, stay home. Do a Zoom Thanksgiving this year.

COATES: You know people are traveling still. I mean, they're traveling in droves --

REINER: Yeah.

COATES: -- as you have seen, for Thanksgiving. We have seen massive lines of people who are waiting to get tested for the virus.

But getting tested and still masking up and doing all the things you're talking about -- getting tested doesn't mean that you can't get the virus while you're travelling. I mean are you worried that this is not considered by many people who are traveling about what it takes to get to the destination and the exposure and the vulnerability on the way?

[23:25:00]

REINER: I am. And first of all, a test is just a snapshot. So a test discloses whether at this moment, you know, the PCR can detect some viral RNA. It doesn't mean that maybe you are infected yesterday and there is just not enough virus in your system to be detected by our current testing apparatus and it doesn't mean that you won't get infected tomorrow on your way to your destination. So, look, if you want to get tested, I think testing is great and I encourage asymptomatic people to get tested. That is how you put the virus down, by testing more. But it is not a passport that gets you safely to home and protects the people you love.

So, that is not good enough unless you have been in quarantine for 10 days. If you have been in quarantine for 10 days and get tested and your test is negative and you can get home without the use of public transportation, have at it. Otherwise, it's not enough.

COATES: Dr. Reiner, thank you. Prevention is indeed better than cure, as you know. Thank you for your time.

I do have some breaking news tonight. CNN is learning that the president is expected to appear with Attorney Rudy Giuliani in Pennsylvania, yes, where Republican state lawmakers are holding a hearing on allegations of fraud in the 2020 election. That is according to sources familiar with the plan.

Joining me now on the phone to discuss is CNN's Jeremy Diamond. Jeremy, what can you tell me about what we're hearing?

JEREMY DIAMOND, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT (via telephone): That is right, Laura. Two sources familiar with the plan are telling me that the president is expected to join his attorney, Rudy Giuliani, tomorrow. Giuliani, according to the Trump campaign, is expected to be addressing a group of Senate Republican lawmakers in that state, state lawmakers afternoon tomorrow in Gettysburg, Pennsylvania.

Now, I am learning that the president is expected to join Giuliani for this trip, obviously, intent to show that he is certainly not conceding this election, he is still going to be pursuing and trying to trump up these baseless allegations of widespread voter fraud in key battleground states, including the state of Pennsylvania.

This trip is being handled as an unplanned, unannounced movement, and therefore it's not appearing on the president's public schedule.

One source also cautioned me that because it's an unplanned, what we call the White House's off-the-record movement, the plans for this trip could change, that it could potentially be cancelled.

But as of now, that is the plan for the president to leave the Washington, D.C. for the first time in three weeks since Election Day and to do so alongside his attorney, Rudy Giuliani, who has been leading the charge in trying to spread these conspiracy theories and baseless allegations about fraud in the 2020 election.

COATES: Now, is he doing this in reaction to the most recent court order, saying that there really was nothing, there is no there there? Is he going to talk about the absentee ballots again, any idea of what this -- quote, unquote -- "hearing" maybe about, and is it a court of law or simply with different members of the legislature?

DIAMOND (via telephone): Yeah, this is going to be a meeting of the Pennsylvania Senate Majority Policy Committee, so basically a group of Republican state senators who are going to be meeting. It is certainly not official legislative business. But they are expected to have some witnesses who, according to the Trump campaign, who have filed after affidavits attesting to election fraud in the 2020 election.

Now, we know based on the pattern of these affidavits that they have been bringing forward, they have been filled with hearsay, hearsay, hearsay, according to one judge. So certainly, you can expect to hear a lot of unfounded allegations continue to be pushed.

And again, obviously, this is the president making every attempt he can to continue to try and trump up these charges, excuse the pun, about the 2020 election being rigged, even as we know now that he is not standing in the way of this transition proceeding as it relates to the Biden administration based on the GSA ascertainment decision that happened just yesterday.

COATES: Well, Jeremy Diamond, thank you for your reporting. I am going to be curious to see whether this meeting is under oath. You know, it will make a difference going forward. Thank you. Stay with us.

More on our breaking news, we got Congresswoman Sheila Jackson Lee reacting right after this.

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[23:30:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COATES: More on our breaking news tonight. I want to turn to Democratic Congresswoman Sheila Jackson Lee. She is on the Judiciary Committee.

Congresswoman Lee, thank you for being here.

I really want to get your reaction to President Trump expected to now join Rudy Giuliani in Pennsylvania tomorrow for what is being called a hearing on this fraud allegation. There is no evidence. Is he going to admit that it's over anytime soon?

REP. SHEILA JACKSON LEE (D-TX): Well, Laura, the nation is in a health care crisis. We don't know if President Trump has even taken his national security the briefings. He is now trumping off to Pennsylvania where a federal court there has indicated that the lawsuits are frivolous.

And as well the General Services Administration has ascertained president-elect Biden and vice president-elect Kamala as the apparent winners. They are beginning to get briefings, national intelligence briefings, and also thank goodness, they're going to be briefed on COVID-19.

I frankly believe that this is an unfortunate and sad distraction. People are losing their lives. But as well, the national security is in the hands of the president of the United States, the commander-in- chief. You would like to think that that is something that he or she will be focused on.

In this instance, it seems that President Trump is only focused on his own hurt feelings. I feel for his hurt feelings. He has a right to participate in a legal process.

[23:35:00]

JACKSON LEE: But I frankly saddened that we are continuing this somewhat charade that is going on and it is really hurting the American people.

So, as a lawyer, he has a right to go into court. And as I have often seen judges render decisions against a particular lawyer's positions, then those judges and those courts can continue to render decisions against the Trump lawyers who are bringing frivolous matters. America has to go on because America has a lot to do.

COATES: And one of those things, Congresswoman, as you know, you are the chairwoman of the bipartisan congressional committee on the Coronavirus Task Force. And you're the chair -- and I have to know, of course -- you have a record number of Americans being hospitalized. You're the chair of the Coronavirus Task Force.

Tell me, what is Congress doing to make sure that these hospitals that are already stretched so thin will be able to receive and care for patients? Even in your own state of Texas, the numbers are soaring, unfortunately, as they are across the country. What is Congress doing to try to alleviate the American anxiety that people are feeling when they have the president gallivanting on the charade, as you talked about?

JACKSON LEE: Well, Laura, first of all, 2,000 people plus died today, 85,000 plus hospitalizations. We know that we are in very serious times. A hundred and forty-four thousand children are infected.

I know that the leadership of the House of Representatives with Speaker Pelosi are engaged in negotiations as they were last week before we left for the Thanksgiving recess. We know that we must come to grips with this in the next coming days. We will be in Washington in the next days, this coming week. Frankly, we will negotiate with the president's negotiators.

The secretary of the treasury should really continue sitting down at the table. We need Leader McConnell to step away from partisanship and to begin to look at the pain that the American people are facing. We have a $2.2 trillion bill that will provide for COVID-19 response with testing, with PPE. That means small business loans as well as help for restaurants, $120 million. And yes, the dollars that our families will need, $1,200, $500 for dependent, and $600 unemployment. That will run out in December 31st.

And as well, we need the secretary of treasury not to end the other financial assets and products that still are in need for our markets. We see the market went up 30 points because of the movement of vice president Biden, president-elect, and the decision that he made with his cabinet. We know that this country can move forward. We look forward to passing this legislation, generating these dollars to our local cities and counties and states, and giving the Americans people what they need to get over into 2021 as this vaccine is going to be provided to the large number of Americans in 2021. That is what we are going to be working on. I believe we are going to get it done.

COATES: Congresswoman Sheila Jackson Lee, America is counting that you can. Thank you. We will be right back.

JACKSON LEE: Thanks. Happy Thanksgiving to you.

COATES: Thank you.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[23:40:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COATES: So the president has said that he has the absolute right to pardon himself. But does he have a pardon list? In the final 57 days of his term, is there a list that is actually there?

Well, joining me now is John Dean, former White House counsel for President Nixon, the right man for the job today, and the author of "Authoritarian Nightmare: Trump and His Followers."

John, it is good to see you. It has been a while but I am glad that you're here. I have to ask you. You know, we have three sources now, we are hearing, that tell CNN that there are ongoing discussions in the White House about President Trump pardoning Michael Flynn. Let us remember, he admitted to lying to the FBI. So what would this pardon signify to you?

JOHN DEAN, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: It doesn't surprise me he has got pardons on his mind. He just did the turkey, which he --

(LAUGHTER)

DEAN: -- created with great official authority. So he might line up some other turkeys and think it appropriate. I think he will pardon a number of people, Laura, between now and his departure.

I think Michael Flynn is somebody who has been on his list for a long time, so that reporting sounds pretty valid. I suspect there are others that he is thinking about, and these are probably people that he somehow feels either could threaten him or he feels very indebted to, one of the two.

COATES: Well, one of the biggest questions out there right now, John, is will the president try to pardon himself? I mean, can he do it? It's never been really tried before. What do you think?

DEAN: Well, he has been very bold and says he thinks he has that power. I have read the scholarship on both sides. No court has ever ruled on it. The only court that really can make that decision is the U.S. Supreme Court. It's never been before them.

There are good arguments on both sides. The Department of Justice says the president cannot pardon himself because he can't be a judge in his own case. The others say that the language is so broad in the Constitution that there is no restriction on the president. So you can read it either way. Until the court decides, we really won't know the answer.

COATES: So here we are, yet again, four years in a row, in what we called unchartered territory. John Dean, thank you for tonight. I appreciate it.

DEAN: Thanks, Laura.

COATES: They are the extremist group the president once told to stand back and stand by.

[23:45:00]

COATES: You ever wonder why someone would join the Proud Boys? And once in, well, what's it like? CNN goes inside the group, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COATES: One far-right group gaining some notoriety over the last few years is the Proud Boys. They even got a nod of sorts from President Trump at one of his debates with Joe Biden. But what do we know about the Proud Boys and what exactly do they stand for?

[23:50:01]

COATES (on camera): Tonight, CNN's Elle Reeve talks to a former member.

(BEGIN VIDEO TAPE)

(MUSIC PLAYING)

RUSSELL SCHULTZ, FORMER MEMBER OF PROUD BOYS (voice-over): They're afraid to say what is on their mind for fear of getting into a fight. But if they have that guy or that group behind them, they're more bold in saying what they think, because they think someone has their back.

CROWD: (INAUDIBLE) Antifa!

SCHULTZ: The Proud Boys are the vehicle that attracts those people and accepts them in.

ELLE REEVE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Russell Schultz spent about a year and half as a Proud Boy near Portland. He didn't hold the title, but he was at a lot of political protests and had a big presence online. He says he quit, but the Proud Boys say he was kicked out in May 2019.

Russell is a witness to what it is like inside the far-right group and why some men would want to join it. SCHULTZ: It's too much like a nationwide criminal gang. That is where they're heading towards. They want to be part of that (ph).

This is for Proud Boys. We need more political activists on the right side, more and not less.

REEVE (voice-over): Russell grew up around Portland. He is Jewish and told us he voted for Obama twice before voting for Trump twice.

SCHULTZ: Donald Trump is bull-headed. He was determined, and he takes a lot of criticisms but he keeps fighting on. I like his political policies. I got involved in doing the activism stuff because of Trump supporters getting attacked. And I wanted to stand up to that and say that is not what we do in America.

REEVE (on camera): But you were not just a Trump supporter. You got involved with the Proud Boys. How did that happen?

SCHULTZ: We were holding a free speech rally in Portland and fights are breaking out all over the place. Here comes marching across the field, these guys in black and yellow-striped polos. To me, they just looked like something from a "Brave Heart" movie or something. It was kind of cool.

And then they asked me to join. I thought about it for a minute. I was like, yeah, OK, it will be fun. I wore a goofy little shirt and looked like we are a bowling team.

REEVE (voice-over): The Proud Boys were founded in 2016 and are known more for street fights than for their vague ideology. They celebrated when President Trump mentioned them in a presidential debate.

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Proud Boys, stand back and stand by. But I'll tell you what, I'll tell you what, somebody has got to do something about Antifa and the left.

REEVE (on camera): Do you think the Proud Boys felt encouraged by President Trump like that he had their back?

SCHULTZ: Yeah, everybody wants to feel special.

REEVE (voice-over): Unlike many far-right groups that emerged around the same time, the Proud Boys don't say they are trying to defend the white race. They say they are defending the western civilization and that if you think that is code for white people, you're the racist.

SCHULTZ: I don't perceive them as racists. There might be some of them, might be misogynist. But most of that would be their defense of rejection. But a lot of it, I just see people showing up because they want to have drinking partners. They want to join a gang so they can go and fight Antifa and hurt people that they don't like and feel justified in doing it.

REEVE (voice-over): Chairman Enrique Tarrio told CNN, currently, there is no criminal activity happening in the Proud Boys. Russell left the group but he hasn't left the mindset. His (INAUDIBLE) towards Antifa still motivates his actions, and he still shows up at some rallies.

And while he criticizes the Proud Boys, he defends most of what he did while with the group, including the violent threats as either a joke or justified.

SCHULTZ: I'm going to shoot you in your head or your chest.

REEVE (voice-over): Antifa posts information about far-right activists online. They say to raise a social cause of being a fascist. In 2018, Rose City Antifa posted Russell's address and workplace and reposted his videos where he talked about violence.

SCHULTZ: The last rally, I nearly ran you over with a car. I don't feel bad about it one bit. You're lucky I didn't kill you.

REEVE (on camera): Rose City Antifa posted this.

SCHULTZ: Oh, I have never seen that one. I'm glad they posted that one.

SCHULTZ: You are not going to survive. I will survive and take my chances in court.

REEVE (on camera): OK, they do seem like violent threats for us all.

SCHULTZ: They are violent threats and for good reason, too.

REEVE (on camera): Why?

SCHULTZ: We were going to have a religious march, a pro-Jesus march, just around Christmas time.

REEVE (on camera): Yeah.

SCHULTZ: And Antifa was saying they are going to throw urine and feces on us. And so that was my way of saying, OK, we do that, that is a threat, I don't know if (INAUDIBLE). I made the threat so they weren't (INAUDIBLE).

REEVE (voice-over): Rose City Antifa told CNN they did not threaten to throw poop at the Jesus march and do not know how to lace poop with HIV.

At the million MAGA march in Washington, D.C. after Trump lost the election, Proud Boys got into fight with anti-Trump counter- protesters. Videos of the violence circulated on social media.

(On camera): Yeah, look at him. He is a big, old, fat dude hitting a woman.

SCHULTZ: From behind. She didn't see it coming.

REEVE (on camera): How is that like proud masculinity right there?

SCHULTZ: Yeah.

REEVE (on camera): It's just crazy to me that it's come to this point.

SCHULTZ: Mm-hmm.

REEVE (on camera): Do you feel like you are part of it that brought us to this point with their --

SCHULTZ: That brought us to it?

REEVE (on camera): Yeah. They're propaganda.

SCHULTZ: Honestly, I had a role in it. You know, I never advocate for the violence to come out.

[23:55:00]

REEVE (on camera): Do you see why people make the argument that it was never really a joke? A joke is just a cover for what you actually want to do.

SCHULTZ: I don't think it was ever meant to be a street thing. Not at first. It just kind of morphed into that. You probably won't even know who Proud Boys are if there hadn't been Antifa attacking patriots or Trump supporters at rallies. Maybe that would be better.

REEVE (on camera): Do you think after Trump leaves office, the Proud Boys will fade away?

SCHULTZ: No.

REEVE (on camera): Why not?

SCHULTZ: Because they found the other part we are talking about where they felt like they are part of a group. You got these guys that normally have no friends. They can't talk to a girl because of whatever reason. They just don't have the self-confidence. They joined the group. Now, they have self-confidence. I am with these guys. And that gets them attention.

REEVE (voice-over): Elle Reeve, CNN, Vancouver, Washington.

(END VIDEO TAPE)

COATES (on camera): Thanks for watching. Our coverage continues.

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