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Don Lemon Tonight
GOP Members Want Trump To Move On; Bill Barr Admits No Massive Voter Fraud; Controversy Swirling Over Presidential Pardons; Trump Jokes About Running In 2024; Joe Scarborough Skeptical Of Trump's Second Term; Joe Biden To Rebuild The Economy; It's Not Going To Be An Easy Ride For Biden. Aired 10-11p ET
Aired December 01, 2020 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[22:00:00]
CHRIS CUOMO, CNN HOST (on camera): And I'll tell you what. There are people like him all over this country so learn more about how you can help. You can go to their web site, heartoftheHamptons.org. I'll tweet out the link as well. Check it out on my social media.
You can also visit the CNN impact your world page to find other ways to help, OK? That's at CNN.com/impact. Remember, when you give, you always get more in return.
Thanks for watching "CNN TONIGHT" with D. Lemon starts right now. D. lemon and I live in the same community. We both know Hilton.
DON LEMON, CNN HOST: Yes.
CUOMO: Don has been a friend. But also a helper for Heart of the Hamptons.
LEMON: Well, he is a good guy. Why do you want to call him out on his fishing? The guy is like a saint.
CUOMO: I got to tell the truth, pal.
LEMON: Here, this is what I had to say because I talk to people about it. I said, you know, there is a food pantry out in the Hamptons and it needs help.
And every time someone hears the Hamptons, the Hamptons, or whatever, maybe we should just say Long Island. They think everybody is rich, it's all, you know, summer homes, that's not it. The people who run the communities are working class people, it's actually very red.
I mean, Lee Zeldin is our congressman.
CUOMO: Is the congressman, yes.
LEMON: Yes. So, it's not like we live in this blue enclave of all rich people, you know, I have one neighbor that is a detective, I have one that's a landscaper, I have one, you know, I have one that does homes.
It's just, it's a working class beautiful, beautiful community out there, yes, there are some very wealthy people, but there are some --
(CROSSTALK)
CUOMO: In the summer right.
LEMON: -- very wealthy people in the summer, right. But there are some very wealthy people in a lot of communities, but as he said, these are not people who you would typically think, you know, and even though neither of us judges that, are typical homeless people. Or, you know, people that you see on the street, or what have you.
I'm not judging people because everybody needs help wherever they are. But these are working class people who have fallen on hard times because of the economy, because of COVID or for whatever reason, and reasons. The need is great and you can see it all over, so don't judge, you know, people, or community, or an organization by zip code, judged it by the need.
And I think that's everywhere, all over this entire country. You and I are going to do something with Hilton, we haven't figured out exactly why but we know we're going to give. But I want to do something bigger on that.
CUOMO: I will give the money, if you do the polar plunge.
LEMON: No.
CUOMO: If you go into that water, I will pay.
LEMON: Too cold, I can't swim.
CUOMO: Then you have to pay.
LEMON: I'm kidding. I'm kidding.
CUOMO: Because I'm not paying and going in the water. I'm not doing both. But look, if people want to question the need all you've got to do is give them the number. A 175,000 --
LEMON: Right.
CUOMO: -- meals this year, it's a small community. Go google Suffolk County of New York and see the demographics of it, and think about that need. And we've got people in Congress who are just talking about maybe getting something done before Christmas.
LEMON: Yes.
CUOMO: Are you kidding me?
LEMON: Yes.
CUOMO: The shame of our society right now, to me is our biggest regret.
LEMON: My -- I talk to my family in Louisiana and they said the same thing is happening in my hometown of Baton Rouge. You came into my office earlier, and I said I wanted to do something about that, there are other places around the country.
Look, we'd like to help everybody, right? But the need is really great right now and you're right, our politicians should be doing more. All of them, Republican and Democrats should be doing more. And they should be working together.
I had, you know, our friend on John Kasich last night, and you know John, we have an animated conversation sometimes get it and they don't, sometimes they don't. but that's just, that's our relationship.
And we are talking about, working how Joe Biden has got to go in and work with the other side. And my argument to John was that you got to go in and you got to represent the people of America. You don't have to go, and this is my belief, saying well, I'm going to work with the other side just to work with the other side.
If you represent the people of America, those who voted for you and didn't vote for you, then the people who are in Washington who are obstructing, they are going to look bad if they're not trying to help out. If they're not trying to help the people who are in need, when you're trying to do the right thing and you're putting the right bills and the right recommendations on the table in front of them and they simply don't want to do it, then they are going to look bad.
So, look out for the folks, for the people rather than for the politicians. You don't have to work with them, work with the people at home. The people who were in need.
CUOMO: I'm -- I'm with you, I think you have to do deal direct with people, because I'm telling you, these are not normal times. Even though it's a pandemic --
LEMON: Yes.
CUOMO: -- even though the hunger is so great, this re-Trump looking party. I call it that for a reason --
LEMON: I call that the trump looking. You put the re in there, I just call it the Trump party.
CUOMO: Well, because it's Republican, re-Trump looking.
LEMON: I got --
CUOMO: All right. Look, logic aside. What I'm saying is, that these people won't do anything --
LEMON: Yes.
CUOMO: -- unless they think it's OK with him.
LEMON: Yes.
CUOMO: And I think that means even ignoring COVID, even ignoring the hunger. Until I see differently, once I see differently then I'll make a different assessment.
LEMON: Yes.
CUOMO: But right now, they ignore the sabotage of a transition, they haven't done relief, Mitch McConnell had one number, he came back after a break and had half the number.
[22:05:01]
And he says he is dealing in good faith, now he says we have no time to waste when he slow walked it for weeks. There's a lot of shame in their game, D. Lemon.
LEMON: Yes. There is. And here's what I'll say. I'll let you go. Help out wherever you can in your own community. When they say clean up your own backyard, so maybe that's where we start and that's where everybody starts.
So, I'll see -- I'll see you tomorrow, you have a good night, go put some Christmas lights up and by the way, it's Clark Griswold you didn't even correct me last night. Not Frank Griswold.
CUOMO: I was too embarrassed.
LEMON: Gosh.
CUOMO: Don Lemon, I love you.
LEMON: I know you do. You better.
CUOMO: It's my act of charity.
LEMON: This is CNN TONIGHT.
CUOMO: It's giving Tuesday.
LEMON: I'm not going to respond to that. I'm Don Lemon.
And we do have some breaking news that we have to get to. It may be the last nail in the coffin of this president's bogus last-ditch claims of voter fraud. OK? And here's why.
You know that attorney general, the one who has been doing the president's bidding for the entire time that he's been there, Bill Barr? While he is blowing up the president's claims saying to date, everybody, listen, OK? All of you listen, because I know some of you are going to see this later on social media. When you criticize what I said but here is what he says, and I quote. "To date, we have not seen fraud on a scale that could have affected a different outcome in the election."
Bill Barr, going on to tell the A.P., the Associated Press, quote, "there has been one assertion that would be systemic fraud and that would be that -- that would be the claim that machines were programs essentially to skew the election results. And the DHS and the DOJ have looked into that and so far, we haven't seen anything to substantiate that."
In other words, the president is lying, still lying, always lying. Lies, lies, and more lies, lies on top of lies. The attorney general has done this president's bidding time, after time, after time, after time but not this time.
It's a little late to get any kudos after letting the president carry on these, with these claims for 28 days, since the election. Twenty- eight days he's been carrying on with this B.S., none of it is true and he knows it, taking your money though if you're sending it to him.
So, my question tonight, especially for Republicans in Congress is, why are you still playing with fire like this? Why are you? I'm going to give you a couple examples of things you need to hear.
I want you to listen to Georgia, this Georgia election official, his name is Gabriel Sterling. He's a Republican. He's reacting emotionally today to the death threats, physical threats and intimidation against election workers and officials.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GABRIEL STERLING, GEORGIA VOTING SYSTEM IMPLEMENTATION MANAGER: Joe DiGenova asked for Chris Krebs, a patriot who ran CISA, to be shot. A 20 something tech at one county today, has death threats and a news put out that he should be hung for treason.
Mr. President, you have not condemned these actions or this language. Senators, you have not condemned this language or these actions. All of you who have not said a damn word, are complicit in this.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON (on camera): Nothing, complicit. That's exactly right. But there are a bunch of others deciding that they don't want to get burned, after Trump throws a torch into our democracy. Then he just walks away.
Arizona Governor Doug Ducey, a Republican who Trump endorsed for reelection, tweeting there was no fraud in his state election, in his state's election saying this. The problems that exist in other states simply don't apply here. I also said all along I'm going to follow the law, and that's exactly what he did.
Certifying Arizona's election results, he did it yesterday. And then there is Georgia Governor, Brian Kemp, another Republican who was endorsed by Trump refusing to do the president's bidding and interfere in his state's election. Georgia's Lieutenant governor saying this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LT. GOV. GEOFF DUNCAN (R-GA): You know we're almost a month into this and we have yet to see any sort of systemic fraud any sort of organized effort around organized fraud and you know, I'm proud of that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON (on camera): Michigan now, where the president is still trying to overturn the will of the people with a lawsuit. Republican Congressman Fred Upton says this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. FRED UPTON (R-MI): Well you know what, the voters have spoken, no one has come up with any evidence or fraud or abuse.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON (on camera): All right, let's go to Wisconsin now where the Attorney General Josh Kaul saying, and I quote, "there's no basis at all for any assertion that there was widespread fraud that would have affected the results."
[22:04:56]
And it's not just state officials, judges in case after case after case, laughing the president's fraud accusations right out of court. Judges, laughing him out of court.
And so tonight, even why Barr is saying there is no election fraud, that he's doing something else that will make the president very happy. And reach their tentacles into the Biden administration.
He's appointed the U.S. John Durham, a special counsel so we can continue investigating the investigators in the 2016 campaign. An attempt to keep the president's witch hunt accusations a lie. Even though Durham, has been investigating for more than a year brought only one criminal charge of a minor FBI lawyer.
But this president feels aggrieved, that he had to deal with the Russia investigation and now they'll leave behind an investigation of their own.
But I want you to think about this, OK. Think about all the times investigations this president demanded came to nothing. I'll give you a couple of them, because there are more, but I only have so much time.
Remember the so-called unmasking investigation of the Obama administration around the 2016 election, hyped by the president for months? Conservative media, state-run TV, unmasking, unmasking, unmasking, unmasking, and masking. That's all you heard, turned out to be crap, nothing. Quietly ending in October, no charges, none.
Remember the voter fraud commission the president created to investigate the 2016 election, even though he won that election? Disbanded after only meeting twice and finding no widespread fraud.
Are you still letting this president bamboozle you? How about the State Department's investigation of Hillary Clinton's e-mails, her e- mails, but her e-mails, or e-mails, Hillary Clinton's e-mails, her e- mails? Another bust. Finding no persuasive evidence of widespread mishandling of classified information.
Did you fall for the fake, unmasking, unmasking, e-mails, e-mails, voter fraud, voter fraud, voter fraud, voter irregularities, voter fraud. The fake conspiracies, investigations that are hyped and they turn up nothing. Republican governors are against him. Republican judges are against him, the DOJ and the FBI against him.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Why isn't the FBI all over the place, they're not, they're not. It's an incredible thing, they're not and it's an embarrassment to our country.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON (on camera): It is so desperate to watch some of my colleagues on another network now, it wreaks of desperation. And from him as well, it's all just a part of a desperate attempt to rewrite history by a president who can't accept the fact that he lost.
But it sounds like members of his inner circle, while they see the writing on the wall because the sources telling CNN tonight, that Trump associates including Rudy Giuliani, are asking him for preemptive pardons before he leaves office.
Giuliani of course, denies discussing a pardon. And we're learning tonight the president and his advisers have also discussed pardons for his three eldest children. And then there's a latest from the Trump campaign attorney, Joe DiGenova, who last night said that Chris Krebs, Chris Krebs who by the way is a patriot who was fired for rejecting the president's bogus claims of widespread voter fraud.
He said that Krebs, DiGenova did, Krebs should be taken out at dawn and shot. Now, DiGenova saying that he was just being sarcastic. Remember the president did that, I was just being sarcastic, right?
Here's what DiGenova said. Quote, "for anyone listening to the Howie Carr show, it was obvious that my remarks were sarcastic and made in jest. I, of course, wish Mr. Krebs no harm."
Right out of the Trump playbook, right? Bleach, the disinfectant I was just being sarcastic or whatever. Say something outrageous, that's the playbook. And then when people object just say that you're being sarcastic, we've seen this president do it over and over and over. Watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: Then I see the disinfectant, knocks it out in a minute, one minute. Is there a way that we can do something like that by injection inside or almost a cleaning, because you see it gets in the lungs?
I was asking a sarcastic, and a very sarcastic question to the reporters in the room about disinfectant on the inside. But it does kill it and it would kill it on the hands, that would make things much better. That was done in the form of a sarcastic question to the reporters.
[22:15:06]
Russia, if you're listening, I hope you're able to find the 30,000 e- mails that are missing. I think you'll probably be rewarded mightily by our press, let's see if that happens.
Remember this thing, Russia if you're listening, remember it was a big thing. In front of 25,000 people, Russia it was all said and done.
ISIS is honoring President Obama. He is the founder of ISIS. So, I said, the founder of ISIS, obviously I'm being sarcastic. But then, then but not that sarcastic.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON (on camera): I was being sarcastic, but not that sarcastic? Maybe he should just be saying, I'm being desperate because he wreaks, you wreak of it, desperation. Yet the president said he's never going to change, he's going to take that show on the road, but guess what. I won't be on stage at 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue for much longer. So, you have to look for it in another city.
Why is the president talking about four more years tonight after his attorney general finally admits what we all knew, what we've all been saying. There is no evidence of widespread voter fraud in the election, none.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. DICK DURBIN (D-IL): Isn't it interesting that it's a new story when the attorney general is caught red-handed telling the truth?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[22:20:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON (on camera): OK, so there is a lot in this segment because we're learning a lot tonight from federal court documents the Justice Department is investigating a potential presidential pardon bribery scheme. The filings don't reveal a timeline of the alleged scheme or any names of people potentially involved.
That news is happening as the sources are saying that the associates of President Trump, including his personal lawyer Rudy Giuliani are seeking preemptive pardons.
All of this happening as the Attorney General Bill Barr says there is no evidence of widespread voter corruption in the election, effectively shutting down the president's continued false claims of massive fraud.
As I said a lot to discuss. Our White House correspondent Kaitlan Collins is here, senior political analyst John Avlon is here as well. Good evening to both of you. Good to see you.
So, Kaitlan, I got to start with you, because the attorney general today, you know, this is a huge blow to the president's lies about election fraud. Saying -- saying all of this, and yet the president tonight is talking about another four years, what is -- what the, what?
KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Yes. This is -- this is -- I mean, that's a good way to sum it up. It says that this Christmas party tonight that the president had with several guests. And he came down the stairs and according to a source that told me the president talked about having four more years in the White House. Whether that's in January 2021 or January 2025, and he was saying I'll see you in January, if not I'll see you in four more years.
Of course, hinting at a potential 2024 run that we know has been something the president has discussed. And that really does give you insight into how the president is viewing this. And while he did tonight insist that he believes this is a rigged election, of course it does come on the heels of one of his most loyal cabinet members coming out.
And this is actually someone who is not only one of his most loyal cabinet members, Bill Barr openly floated some of these theories about the election and about potential interference from foreign powers in this election, printing off ballots in that interview with Wolf that he did.
So, it is remarkable for Barr to come out and say, there is no evidence of widespread fraud in this election that we have uncovered.
LEMON: I think -- I think, John, it's pretty clear without saying outright, Biden won but that's what Barr is saying in so many words.
JOHN AVLON, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST & ANCHOR: Yes, he is saying that the president has been out there lying to the American people through his lawyers and baseless court cases. And despite his best efforts and probably personal wishes, there is no evidence of fraud.
The president has been practicing disinformation to save face, diluting his supporters and dividing the country. There's as we've seen again and again, all these hyped up phony investigations come to nothing once they're actually looked at by real people.
LEMON: Yes. Barr is a Trump loyalist, and here's what he told Wolf, this is prior to the election, about mail-in voting. Watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
WILLIAM BARR, UNITED STATES ATTORNEY GENERAL: Wolf, this is playing with fire. We're very closely divided country here. And if people have to have confidence in the results of the election and the legitimacy of the government, and people trying to change the rules to this methodology, which is as a matter of logic is very open to fraud and coercion, is reckless and dangerous. People are playing with fire.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON (on camera): Well, listen, John, he was very emphatic.
AVLON: Yes, right.
LEMON: Yes, right. But it doesn't matter what his motivation is now. Barr, he protected Trump at every turn. Every turn.
AVLON: He tried, but he couldn't protect Trump ultimately from himself. Because when you actually asked the Justice Department to investigate things, they can't make up things out of whole cloth no matter how much the president or even the attorney general might want that to be true.
What I love about that clip with Wolf, is he talks about how we're a closely divided country, and it's so important people have faith and trust in the results of the election. Which is of course with the president is lying on fire every day with his actions. And by the way his concerns about mail-in voting not only are they baseless, but Barr admitted later on that he didn't have any proof to back up his allegation that mail-in voting was unsecure.
LEMON: Let's bring in CNN's Senior Legal Analyst, Laura Coates. Laura, I was just talking to John about, you know, Barr's, I guess 180 or how he, you know, he says one thing one day and one thing the next about.
[22:25:02]
But basically, what he is saying is that won and that what Trump has been doing is all B.S.
LAURA COATES, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Well I guess all this time we've been calling on Attorney General Barr, but now I guess captain obvious Barr is now the new moniker for him because we've all seen this coming. What should be surprising to people is frankly how long it took.
And remember, one of the things that he talked about today was the idea of the Department of Justice being essentially the catch all, if you have some problem, if you have some innuendo that you would like to throw out there as a spaghetti noodle and hope it sticks on the wall. Then you summon up Department of Justice, you use all the resources, you take away from the valuable cases, the investigations that actually are meritorious.
And you just go full throttle, into a case that could not ever be substantiated. What we saw this now with William Barr, the attorney general talking about the unsubstantiated cases that the president has been speaking about.
And remember, just this past weekend President trump was talking about hey, they're totally missing in action. Well, it turns out they weren't only not missing an action, there was nothing for them to do other than the hard work that the line attorneys had to do day in and day out about otherwise actually meritorious cases here, Don.
But what's surprising and I know John was speaking about this issue, is the idea that you've got this really devoted loyalist, think of the work that he did with respect to say, a Roger Stone, ultimately having a commutation. The idea that Michael Flynn.
Think about all the Paul Manafort cases, let alone that press conference where he set the stage in a way that was disingenuous. According to a court of law, in a way that Mueller presented his own report. And now you have him saying look, essentially the jig is up. I wonder who else will follow suit. Don, I know who should follow suit. Everybody else who would not like the title of captain obvious.
LEMON: Kaitlan, we got to talk about something else, right, in this segment, and that's about -- let's talk about the Justice Department investigating a potentially criminal screen of a bribery an exchange for a presidential pardon. This is stunning, Kaitlan.
COLLINS: This is wild, and it is something that people should keep an eye on, because basically what they're investigating is this allegation that people were funneling money into the White House or just some kind of political action committee in exchange for a presidential pardon.
And of course, that is something we've been talking about as Donald Trump's time in office comes to a close. And so, this is unsealed in a court record today, some of this happen in August over the summer a lot of the action that was happening. But we just found about it today, and there are no names, there is no timeline provided in here because there are a ton of redactions in these court filings.
But what it does say is that several people including an attorney had their communications seized over the summer and some kind of office raid that did happen before the end of the summer. Though it's not clear where that office was or who was involved.
LEMON: Wow.
COLLINS: But basically, the question is, was money exchange for a pardon? And I got to not one thing. They don't say that prosecutors prove there was a direct payment, but it said there was talk potentially of past political contributions or future ones in exchange for some kind of clemency. So, we may learn more about this, but it is incredibly interesting.
LEMON: So, John, what does this mean for any potential pardons in the pipeline during the final days of this presidency?
AVLON: Well there's no reason to think Donald Trump is going to be constrained by something like an investigation. Although we should point out that, well, Kaitlan is exactly right to point out, there are no names mentioned, it's heavily redacted.
You know, selling a pardon would be a federal crime. But what's so sinister about what's coming out of the reporting, the request for preemptive pardons, apparently by Rudy Giuliani, even though he denies it, the president also requiring about preemptive pardons for his family members.
People don't usually request preemptive pardons unless they're afraid they're guilty of something.
LEMON: Right.
AVLON: And we've got this prospect but it runs straight up to the basic common sense and law and even the founders' visions of what a pardon was for. But it's being encouraged in hyper partisan media. It is, the idea that the president could pardon himself or people he has ordered to commit illegal acts should trouble anybody who gives a damn about the Constitution.
LEMON: Well, I think you said hyper conservative or far-right. They're been saying it was their idea to tell the president like --
AVLON: Yes.
LEMON: -- hey, Mr. President, we should do it.
And so, Laura, let's talk about this, because he is discussing with advisers about preemptively pardoning his three eldest children and his son-in-law. How unprecedented is this, why do these people need pardons anyway if they're not guilty of anything.
COATES: Well, first of all, the presidential pardon really be without the exception of maybe self-pardoning, which had not been really articulated by the court or evaluated, the idea of the pardoning power from the present is absolute to an extent, and of course they absolutely will wield that particular pardon and it's is essentially good to be the king in that notion.
And you're right. A pardon does imply that there is some criminal conduct, to which you are agreeing that you should be pardoned from. So, you explicitly or implicitly actually say --
AVLON: Yes.
[22:30:02]
COATES: -- yes, that I have some reason to do so. But remember, a pardon is only as good as the founding fathers and as John alluded to intended. It is never going to extend to state never going to level prosecutions, of which there are certain on the horizon, including things related to perhaps the Trump organization at the New York State level, and people who are associated in his inner orbit.
So, there is -- there are some limitations to it. But the big issue here of course is, it might be surprising for people to realize that the notion of preemptive pardon is not that noble. Primitive pardons you can look to perhaps Gerald Ford when he pardoned President Nixon, the resigned President Nixon.
He gave a temporal requirement and that's going to be the real key here. It was in the get out of jail free card for any crime you commit for the rest of your life. It's about what he had done during the time of his inauguration and his resignation. And he gave that temporal requirement. Donald Trump thinks he's going to preemptively pardoned anybody
without a time limitation and say I gave you a pardon today, and then say 20 years God forbid you do shoot someone on 5th Avenue you get a jail -- you get out of jail a free card. The Supreme Court will have an issue with that, and frankly associate every American person in this country and anywhere across the world who cares about a president or anyone else being above the law.
LEMON: Thank you all. That's the last word. Laura Coates has it. Thank you very much. I appreciate it. I'll see you guys soon.
So, what happens to the GOP that an election official has to reprimand them and tell the president himself to stop inciting violence? Well, I know someone who can weigh in on that. And that is Joe Scarborough. He's here after the break.
[22:35:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON (on camera): So, we have been telling you about all these stories, right, that are happening just tonight. The Attorney General, Bill Barr, debunking the president's election fraud claims, saying there is no evidence of widespread voter fraud. None.
That as the Justice Department run by Barr, by the way, is investigating a potential presidential pardon bribery scheme. Court filings don't reveal any names of people potentially involved.
And a source telling CNN that the president is having discussions with advisers about preemptively pardoning several people close to him including his children, his son-in-law, and his personal attorney, Rudy Giuliani.
So, what's there to talk about? A lot. MSNBC's Joe Scarborough is here. He's out with a new book by the way, it's called "Saving Freedom: Truman, the Cold War and the Fight for Western Civilization."
You are one of the most prolific people I know. You have a new book like every other month, but welcome to the program. Thank you for appearing. We're going to talk about your book in a little bit. Can I talk to you about some news of the day first, sir?
JOE SCARBOROUGH, HOST, MSNBC: Yes.
LEMON: All right.
SCARBOROUGH: Yes. Lots to talk about.
LEMON: So, let's talk about Bill Bar, about his statement. He says there is no widespread voter fraud, directly contradicting this president and all of his enablers. Why is he coming out now with this? Why did it take so long?
SCARBOROUGH: Right. You know what, it's put up for shut up time, and I think we all saw, we saw a press conference down in Georgia tonight that shows just how out of control this has gotten. And at some point, Republicans understand that Donald Trump is going to be leaving the White House on January the 20th. Barr also knows that this circus act is coming to an end. And he's going to have to live with himself it for every day after January 20th.
We saw, we saw it with Mitch McConnell talking about having to deal with a new administration. And it seems that there are fewer and fewer people that remaining out there that are still willing to go along with Donald Trump's scam.
LEMON: Yes. Let's talk about all of this money that he has raised, because we know that he has raised a ton of money, $170 million dollars off of these false voter fraud claims. And then we learned tonight in a separate story the DPJ is investigating a potential bribery pardon scheme.
For someone who campaigned, and claims to have drain the swamp, Joe, it doesn't get much swampier than this.
SCARBOROUGH: No. It's all about the money. You've always said it. I know we have always said it. It's always about the money. You can always follow the money. Donald Trump -- Donald Trump knew he lost the election a few days after. He knew that Saturday, when it was called, for the most part the gig was up. But it was a great opportunity for him to raise money.
He wanted to raise as much money as he could before he got out of office. He's talking about running in 2024. He's not going to run in 2024. He's just trying to stay out of jail.
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: You don't think he's going to run in 2024?
SCARBOROUGH: No. He's not going to run in 2024. It's over. But he's always thinking ahead on how he can distract his reality TV host show audience. And he's a former, you know, reality TV host. And this is just his next destruction for his audience, but no, he'll never run in 2024. But he will try to stay relevant. And he will try to raise a lot of money off of it.
LEMON: So, one theory, though, Joe, is that these Republicans, is that they are just too weak and fearful to stand up to this president.
SCARBOROUGH: Yes.
LEMON: But there's another possible explanation here. Are they deliberately allowing the lies about the election to fester with the end goal of undermining Joe Biden's presidency?
SCARBOROUGH: Well, if they are, it is blowing up in their face. And it's blowing up spectacularly in Georgia. I mean, Mitch McConnell has been too clever by half allowing a full-blown civil war to break out in the Republican Party's ranks there.
You saw the press conference tonight. You saw attorneys associated with Donald Trump claiming there is a conspiracy between Kelly Loeffler.
LEMON: Yes.
[22:39:57]
SCARBOROUGH: And the governor of Georgia of course, the secretary of state. It's an absolute mess. And a lot of Republicans are going to be standing on the sidelines. And I think voter turnout will likely be depressed. It will make a competitive race or two down there much closer for, and really gives the Democrats a better shot of winning, because it's gotten out of control.
But Biden is going to be able to govern because there are a growing number of centrists in the United States Senate. And you can see that by the eight or nine Republicans and Democrats that are coming together now to try to pass coronavirus relief.
LEMON: You -- I think you wrote in your op-ed where you felt that -- did you feel that Joe Biden would be underestimated, or he is underestimated, what was the gist of your op-ed?
SCARBOROUGH: Well, Biden like Harry Truman, always, both of them were always underestimated. Joe Biden of course there's a new documentary on Showtime that has an old clip of Jim Greenfield predicting that Joe Biden would one day be the Democratic nominee. Walter Cronkite laughed him off the stage.
Biden was the butt of a lot of jokes in the 1988 campaign, in the 2008 campaign. Of course, most everybody discounted and even said his race was over this year. He's always been underestimated. He's always overperformed in the end.
And the same thing of course was true of Harry Truman.
LEMON: Yes.
SCARBOROUGH: And Truman was mocked and ridiculed throughout his presidency, but ended up creating the foreign policy that still influences the world today.
LEMON: Well that leads us to your new book. And it's called "Saving Freedom." And it takes an in-depth look at President Harry Truman. And you believe that Trump had a lot in common with -- you believe that he had a lot in common, I should say, Biden, with President-elect Biden.
SCARBOROUGH: Yes.
LEMON: How so? Why do you think that?
SCARBOROUGH: Well, first of all, they were both underestimated. Harry Truman was called a rogue when he came to Washington, D.C. His own party mocked and ridiculed when he ran for president in 1948. They held up signs saying, I am just mild about Harry.
He got in -- when he got into the White House, his own president, FDR, had very little use for him. And yet, here is a guy who came in, and though he was underestimated, he had actually had been in the United States Senate long enough that he knew the players.
He knew how to deal with an isolationist Congress. He knew how to deal with the Republicans, and even though they were exhausted from World War II, he was able to get Republicans and Democrats to move forward with the Truman doctrine with a martial plan with NATO. With the things that not only won the Cold War eventually but also launch the American century.
And I think we have the same thing with Joe Biden. You have somebody who's been in the United States Senate for decades, and he's got friendships on both sides of the aisle.
I spoke to so many Republicans back during the Obama administration, who told -- and I talk to Joe Biden, who always talked about the sort of this behind the scenes negotiations, and it would always end up with Joe Biden at the vice president's residence because Republicans liked him. They respected him, and they knew they could talk to him.
LEMON: Yes. The important question is how are you still awake?
SCARBOROUGH: That is, that is a very important question. I will tell you this. It's very hard because I woke up this morning at about 4.45 am. But you have the hardest time slot. All day, because I have this time slot. And usually by this time, everybody has talked about the news all day. Tonight, is a unique night because it is so exciting.
LEMON: Gatorade.
SCARBOROUGH: But then you worry all day about your show, right?
LEMON: Yes.
SCARBOROUGH: And then at 10 o'clock you do your show from 10 to 11, you go to sleep, and you wake up the next morning, and you start worrying about your show again. So, Don, I feel your pain. I mean, it's a tough slot. But you've got some great news tonight to talk about.
LEMON: Thank you. Listen, by the time we have the, you know, the calls and everyone is deciding on their show, my show is a whole other day away, so it's completely -- so it's a completely different news cycle especially now.
SCARBOROUGH: You know, I did mine, you know, at MSNBC, when the MSNBC was holding caucus. So I would like to walk out to the parking lot at 11.30 at night and it was like this scene out of the sopranos, I would look around and go man, this is bleak, drive into the city, wake up, do it again.
LEMON: Well, I'm going to let you go. Thanks for coming on. It's good to see you, Joe. And the book again is "Saving Freedom: Trump, the Cold War and the Fight for Western Civilization." Joe Scarborough, thank you so much.
SCARBOROUGH: Thank you so much, Don. really appreciate it.
[22:45:01]
LEMON: Absolutely.
So, President-elect Biden is vowing to build back the economy for all Americans, and revealing the team he thinks can do it. What we know about his picks. His message and what it's going to mean for your pocketbook, that's next.
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LEMON (on camera): The president-elect putting forward his newly announced economic team as millions of Americans desperately trying to get by in the middle of a worsening pandemic.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT-ELECT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: Our message to everybody struggling right now is this, help is on the way. We can build a new American economy that works for all Americans, not just some. All.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[22:49:56]
LEMON (on camera): So, Biden's words backed up by just how diverse his picks are including four women, three people of color, the treasury secretary nominee Janet Yellen alluding to major structural changes to help America's -- Americans, I should say, excuse me, left behind. A sentiment echoed by the rest of Biden's nominees.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JANET YELLEN, U.S. TREASURY SECRETARY NOMINEE: I became an economist, because I was concerned about the toll of unemployment on people, families and communities.
ADEWALE "WALLY" ADEYEMO, DEPUTY TREASURY SECRETARY NOMINEE: I believe that's what public service is all about at its best. Giving people a fair shot when they need it most.
LINDA THOMAS-GREENFIELD, U.S. AMBASSADOR TO THE UNITED NATIONS NOMINEE: Structural inequities that have always existed in our economy are being exacerbated like never before.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON (on camera): New York Times columnist Paul Krugman is here. And we're happy that he's here. He is the author of "Arguing with Zombies." I do that all the time, Paul.
PAUL KRUGMAN, COLUMNIST, THE NEW YORK TIMES: Yes. They're everywhere these days, the economy of the walking dead.
LEMON: Yes. It's good to have you on.
KRUGMAN: Yes.
LEMON: So, let's talk about the Biden's team, diverse as he promised. So, talk to me about their experience, their perspectives, how they're going to be different from Donald Trump and Steve Mnuchin, Larry Kudlow and so on and so forth?
KRUGMAN: Don, it's almost like a different species. First of all, first thing to say is that all of these are a really, really good people. I mean, these are people who really know their jobs, know their subject, but that was kind of a given. We knew there was a very deep bench.
I mean, I'm actually looking particularly at, basically every one of these people could have been a plausible nominee for any of the most senior posts, right? I mean, you've got, it almost feels like they're all, all kind of over qualified for the job they're taking, because they're so good.
So, they're really -- it was not clear what at least some people are worried about was, would it be a seriously progressive group, would it be -- you know, Obama, I think the irrelevant comparison is not Trump, got helpless with that comparison.
But if you want you compare to the people that Obama pick for senior positions, this is a much more seriously progressive group, obviously a much more diverse as well. Much less in the way of Wall Street ties, much less in the way of, you know, kind of centrist more progressive creed, less centrist leanings.
And all of them really -- the other thing that we worried about was, is this going to be an administration that's going to be worried about spending money? Are they going to fall into the trap of saying well, you know, debt deficits we can't afford to build? And the choices made here really say that they're not.
LEMON: Yes.
KRUGMAN: That this is going to be a team that really -- they are serious about that, you know, building back better. Whether Mitch McConnell will let them do that is the big question. But the team is great.
LEMON: Yes. You know, I was thinking about as I was sort of roaming the house today and have the TV on in the background, I was thinking about his, some of his advisers when they're involved in the 2008 crisis and they're going to be inheriting another grim situation.
KRUGMAN: Yes.
LEMON: But you say it's a good bet that the economy could come roaring back under Joe Biden, why do you say that Paul?
KRUGMAN: Well, very different. I mean, in 2008 we were -- we had a crisis that had been building for a long time. We had way too much household debt, we had a, basically overstretched a financial system that was seriously screwed up and it was it needed years of stimulus, it needed a lot of time to come back which never got quite enough of because of a little bit of Obama's committee and Republican square straight opposition.
This time around, we've been hit with this huge headwind with the virus. The next few months are going to be ghastly. The next few months is going to be a lot of suffering. But once the vaccines are widely available then people particularly, a lot of people have built up a lot of savings. People are going to be ready to spend again.
So that in some ways, the amount of sabotage that can be done against Joe Biden is much less than the amount of sabotage that could be done against Barack Obama. The economy is ready to come back as soon as the pandemic lets up.
LEMON: Can this group do anything without first dealing with the economic fallout from the COVID-19 pandemic? I mean, what can they do right away to help with that? Because you know, everything you're saying is dependent on the vaccine, right?
KRUGMAN: Right.
LEMON: But what can they do in the interim?
KRUGMAN: Very difficult, they can do some marginal things, they can try to offer some possibly some student debt relief but that's only getting, that's something, maybe some executive orders that can mitigate the evictions crisis, but the truth of the matter is that there's very little that can be done without congressional legislation.
[22:55:00]
And I will say that on the way out, Trump's people are trying to make it even harder. All right. There was money that would have been available in case we had another financial crisis, and Steve Mnuchin has pushed into a corner where Janet Yellen can't get at it.
And so, unfortunately, the next few months are going to be held, because unless, well, unless Democrats take both of those seats in Georgia and have a working, barely working Senate majority. It's going to be very hard to get legislation that does much of anything for the next few months.
So, there's a very unpleasant, that's not the word, there's a horrible stretch that needs to be crossed before we get to the better times.
LEMON: Thank you, Paul. I appreciate it.
KRUGMAN: Thank you.
LEMON: Be well.
KRUGMAN: Pleasure.
LEMON: So, you know, we weren't supposed to, and I didn't see my family for the holidays. So, if you don't mind, my sister just texted me and I said what's up? She said I'm just watching, and she said I see you reading that text. I was. I love you. We'll be right back.
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