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Don Lemon Tonight

DOJ Investigating Potential Presidential Pardon Bribery Scheme; Trump Associates, Including Giuliani, Seeking Pardons; A.G. Barr: No Evidence Of Widespread Fraud In Election; Interview With Gov. Michelle Lujan Grisham (D-NM); Who Will Get Coronavirus Vaccines First?; CDC To Decrease COVID-19 Quarantine Time; White House Holding Multiple Holiday Events During COVID-19 Surge; President Trump Sues To Reverse Biden Win In Wisconsin. Aired 11p-12a ET

Aired December 01, 2020 - 23:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[23:00:00]

DON LEMON, CNN HOST (on camera): So, tonight, federal court documents showing the Justice Department is investigating a possible presidential pardon bribery scheme. Those filings don't reveal any names of people potentially involved.

Also tonight, a source saying associates of President Trump, including his personal lawyer, Rudy Giuliani, are seeking preemptive pardons. All this happening as Attorney General Bill Barr says that there is no evidence of widespread fraud in the election, effectively shutting down President Trump's false claims of massive voter fraud.

Joining me now, CNN's White House correspondent John Hardwood, CNN's political analyst, Ron Brownstein and political commentator Amanda Carpenter. Good to see all of you, thanks for joining. John, you're first. We are learning tonight that the Justice Department is investigating a potential bribery scheme for presidential pardons. What do you know? What can you tell us about that?

JOHN HARWOOD, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT (on camera): We don't know a lot as you indicated in the open, Don. We know that federal district judge Barrel Howell released a heavily redacted court filing from this summer that indicated that federal prosecutors were investigating the potential for a bid to obtain a presidential pardon by means of offering a campaign contribution either to a campaign directly or to a political committee.

Names were not attached to it, so we don't know who was being investigated. We're unaware that anyone has been charged with a crime related to this investigation, but as the conservative lawyer George Conway who happens to be married to long-time Trump adviser Kellyanne Conway put it on Twitter tonight, ask yourself, who was running a campaign for high office this summer and who has the power to issue a presidential pardon?

The answer to both of those questions is President Donald Trump. Now, again, we do not know if he is referred to in any way in this document, but it clearly hit -- the document itself and the covers of the document hit close enough to home that a few moments ago President Trump tweeted out that the investigation was fake news.

But of course, federal district judges like Barrel Howell are not in the business of advancing fake news. So we are going to have to see what he can learn in the coming days about this case.

LEMON: Amanda, we are also told that Trump is considering granting preemptive pardons to his three oldest children, his son-in-law, Jared Kushner as well and Rudy Giuliani. Now, he can claim that he's going to win all he wants but doesn't that show that he knows it's over if he's even considering this?

AMANDA CARPENTER, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR, FORMER COMMUNICATIONS DIRECTOR FOR SENATOR TED CRUZ AND THE AUTHOR OF GASLIGHTING AMERICA (on camera): Yes. I mean, this has been the time a lot of people have been most worried about the Trump presidency, how he would potentially abuse his power on his way out. And the use of pardons potentially to expunge people from being held accountable for their criminal acts on his way out the door is one of the most controversial things that a president can do.

Especially considering he may be extending it to members of his family who want to pursue a future in the Republican Party. And so, you know, the question that nationally comes are, you know, what crimes would he be pardoning them for? And I sort of look at that and say, go ahead. Because if you want to admit that members of your family committed some kind of a crime, members of your inner political circle committed some kind of crime by extending them a pardon then let's use that to go forward and say that they should never come back to Republican politics again.

LEMON: Yes, and then -- you're right. For what? What would he say? I'm pardoning you for blah-blah-blah, and then it would be a trail of bread crumbs. Actually, a big spotlight -- this is where you should look. Ron, is that you saying, mmm?

RON BROWNSTEIN, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST, AND SENIOR EDITOR OF THE ATLANTIC (on camera): Yes. Well, first of all, he can't pardon people for state crimes, right, including himself. So, that is probably where the biggest legal vulnerability is. But my thought about this, Don, is that you don't get to this point in a day, and you don't get to this point on your own.

I mean, there is no way that he would be contemplating acts that are so egregious, so violative of historical norms. If Republicans had not enabled and abetted him at each step toward this. I mean, as I often said, every time he breaks a window, the Republicans in Congress obediently sweep up the glass.

And we have seen that, throughout his presidency, the refusal to hold him accountable for extorting the government of Ukraine, for trying to weaponized the postal service, tilt the census, and especially in this post-election period, where as I wrote today on the CNN website, the behavior of Mitch McConnell and Kevin McCarthy and the other Republican leaders as Trump has spun these poisonous conspiracy theories that are translating into death threats against public officials.

[23:05:08]

I think has been even more cowardly and craven than the Republican leadership was in the early 1950s to Joe McCarthy. So, he has gotten to this point precisely --

LEMON: Wow.

BROWNSTEIN: -- because he believes he will not be held accountable by his party at nay step along the way and we've learned that one party alone cannot uphold the rules of small d, democracy if the other party is simply willing to acquiesce in this -- in this kind of norm breaking.

LEMON: That McCarthy comparison, Amanda did, you didn't really -- I was like, you know, I was like wow. You didn't really flinch at that at all. Because you think it's true?

CARPENTER: Here's the thing I'm thinking about, for the last five years --

BROWNSTEIN: I hope it's true.

CARPENTER: -- how many times have we asked when are Republicans going to stand up to Trump?

LEMON: And they never do.

CARPENTER: And they never do. And so you have to by now we have to come away with the conclusion that they're fine with it. I'm not going accept this talk about what privately they have concerns. And you know, I've come on and explained the politics of their decisions and say why they're staying strategically silent.

Well, I mean, let's forget that. They're fine with it. They're fine with it all as long as it keeps them in power and they're fine with it all even as the president has lost because they're making the calculation that it would be good to delegitimize Vice President Joe Biden.

LEMON: And Amanda, well, Amanda also when you talk about the concern thing privately, they'll say in front of cameras, I'm very, very, very concerned and then they vote and do everything that the president wants them to do.

BROWNSTEIN: Yes.

CARPENTER: But I think we are almost afraid -- I am afraid -- I have been afraid to come to this conclusion that they are fine with it. I've wanted to believe that somewhere in their hearts they would stand up if maybe they weren't so scared.

LEMON: No, they are fine with it.

CARPENTER: But we're at a bad place now where people are getting death threats and they won't even defend their friend in Georgia who is begging before the cameras for support.

LEMON: Yes. What were you going stay, Ron?

BROWNSTEIN: I will just say -- it's very similar to what happened in the early 1950s. Robert Taft, who was the Mitch McConnell of his day, the Senate Republican leader, Mr. Republican, candidate for president multiple times, privately knew that what McCarthy was doing was both reckless and dangerous, but he thought it was expedient for the party because initially he was targeting the Truman administration.

The problem was that it kept going, and he kept -- he went after the Eisenhower administration and had these reckless charges of kind of communist infiltration everywhere in much the same way I think we are watching these Republicans make the calculation in the Senate and the House that it is in their interest to let Trump poison the political system in his way, both because it makes it tougher for Biden to get a second look from Republican voters if they believe the election was stolen.

Others like (inaudible) has already suggested that this could be the basis for a new round of voter suppression. And you know, it just goes to kind of a point where you are saying, we're going to look at our narrow, immediate, short-term party interests over what is clearly an enormous danger to the country and to specifically this public servants around the country are now dealing with death threats as a result of something who believe in his accusations.

LEMON (on camera): Greedy and craven. John, listen, I think your answer is going to be -- I want to play this, because I think I know where you're going with this. Because let me play this, one of Georgia's top election officials happens to be a life-long Republican, Amanda just mentioned him. Weighing in on Trump's attorney, actually calling for Chris Krebs to be shot.

Here's Gabriel Sterling.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GABRIEL STERLING, GEORGIA STATEWIDE VOTING IMPLEMENTATION MANAGER: Joe diGenova asked for Chris Krebs, a patriot who runs CISA to be shot. A 20 something tech (inaudible) county today has death threats a noose put out saying he should be hunt for treason.

Mr. President you have not condemned these actions or this language. Senators, you have not condemned this language or these actions. All of you who have not said a damn word are complicit in this. Someone's going to get hurt. Someone's going to get shot. Someone's going to get killed.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON (on camera): So, John, I'm going to give you the floor. Someone's going to get killed and if this doesn't send a message to Trump and his enablers, what the hell will?

HARWOOD: Well, that is exactly the right message to send. And Joe diGenova who he referred to in that sound bite is a perfect example of the dissent of the Republican Party into lunacy. Joe diGenova who once a respected figure in the legal profession has become a cook espousing this vile shameful things about other people. He said he was sarcastic after this drew a lot of attention, but that is not anything to joke around about.

Sarcasm is typically the cover that is used afterwards by Trump and his enablers from things that they said that are extreme. And just to button up the point that Ron and Amanda were making earlier, you know, Republicans do a lot of whining about how the media is biased against them, but in the case of the Trump years, this is actually the bias of the media has actually worked to their benefit in the following way.

[23:10:12]

The biggest analytical mistake that the media as a -- the mainstream media as a whole has made over the last four years is overestimating the willingness of Republican elected officials at crunch time to do the right thing. They have not been willing to do the right thing.

They are not doing the right thing now in response to these threats to democracy, to these threats to specific people, including public officials of their own Party. It is a very sad commentary on what has happened to the Republican Party and it's a detriment to all of us of the United States.

LEMON: Well. I have been saying all along that they're OK with it because it just keeps happening, Amanda. I know you have been on this show and you've heard me say it. I know it's hard for people to want to accept that, but I mean, you know, once, twice, or whatever, fool me once, you know what I'm saying? Go on, Ron. I got to get to --

CARPENTER: Five years later.

LEMON: Yes.

BROWNSTEIN: I was going say, to John's point, to John's point we don't fully have a language for what he is happening. We are treating the Republican Party as if it's behaving in kind of the tradition of kind of American politics, a kind of back and forth, but what we are seeing particularly in the post-election period and the willingness to go along with such, you know, groundless fantasies, groundless and corrosive fantasies.

Don, I can tell you, there was much more push back from Republicans against McCarthy in the early 1950s than there has been from Republicans now against Trump, no question about it. There is a willingness to go along with this and it is a party that is showing a broad willingness to subvert small d democracy if that's what it takes to hold power and that is a scary prospect that we have not fully wrapped our arms around as a country.

LEMON: It's called hypocrites. That's the word. Hypocrites. Greedy, grifter, power hungry. There are a lot of words, but you know, we have to come up with one that encapsulates it perfectly. Thank you all. I appreciate it. I want to bring in the Democratic Governor of New Mexico, Michelle

Lujan Grisham. Good to see you. Thank you so much for joining us, Governor.

GOV. MICHELLE LUJAN GRISHAM (D-NM) (on camera): Thanks for having me, Don. Thank you.

LEMON: So, let's talk about the coronavirus, because I mean, it is awful -- the hospitalizations in New Mexico are at record highs this week. Are you worried hospitals in your state will become overrun, Governor?

GRISHAM: I have been worried about that single fact since the moment we were engaged in the late winter, early spring of this pandemic. If you're not paying real attention to health-care capacity, you aren't paying attention to this pandemic, as well as saving lives.

And New Mexico, for an antiquated Medicare rule, it's created actually very severe health-care shortages. We have less health-care per capita than most average states, so we really have to do it better. And where we are today is in critical situations in every single hospital in the state. And Don, that's why we did a reset that just ended Monday of this week.

LEMON: Yes, I want to ask you about that. Because you had a two-week shutdown. Are you seeing signs that it help in stopping the spread of this virus?

GRISHAM: It absolutely did, and it's exactly why we did that, right. We wanted to rest up our health-care providers and health care capacity. We certainly wanted to stop exponential growth of our COVID cases statewide. We wanted to reduce our positivity rates each day. All of that occurred. And two weeks really in the context of dealing with this highly contagious out of control virus isn't enough time.

But it allowed us to create then a new system moving forward, because until we have the vaccine, with this virus out of control in the country, what happens in Texas, what happens in Arizona, what happens at the border happens in New Mexico. This is the problem without having a federal frame work to actively combat this pandemic.

States are in this roller coaster mode, and it is untenable. So we are going to keep going at this, holding up our health-care workers in hospitals and we're going to blunt the mortality rate to the highest degree that we can, and we're going to go to this slow gradual re- opening based on cases per 100,000 and positivity rate criteria's.

LEMON: Yes, so you have the -- I think it's a three-tiered that's what you're calling -- you just mentioned what it was.

GRISHAM: It's the stoplight red to green. Red stop, yellow, proceed with caution or slow up, green, go.

LEMON: OK, so, CNN obtained a letter that members of the Congressional Hispanic caucus sent to the Biden team urging them to choose you for Health and Human Services Secretary. Are you being vetted for this role?

[23:15:05]

GRISHAM: You know, Don, as being a co-chair of the transition, we are incredibly focused on the things that Americans need right now. You need the kinds of folks identified, appointed and nominated like you saw today, the economic team. So, that we can get a stimulus out to the states.

My job is to make sure that Biden and Harris have everything that they need to do that, and while I'm incredibly honored and flattered that my colleagues can see the work that I'm doing on the ground and know that I've got 40 years in comprehensive health-care experience, I'm focused on making sure that I'm saving New Mexico lives.

And in fact, New Mexico passed its own stimulus program because we can't wait for the federal government. And while I've got total -- I mean, I'm positive about the success of Biden and Harris with Congress to come to a deal, if you're going to have a reset and a slow movement towards economic re-opening and educational in-person successes, you have to take care of the people who were laid off and furloughed and the small businesses that don't have access to their customers.

So we did all that. Housing protection, food security, stimulus through unemployment, $1,200 for every New Mexican that's unemployed and small business grants so that we can weather the storm.

LEMON: Well, it sounds like you know you are doing and you did get in there. You have 40 years' experience. So we may see you in that role, but until then, keep fighting and doing the right thing in New Mexico. We really appreciate you joining us.

GRISHAM: You know what, thank you very much for having me. I appreciate it.

LEMON: And by the way, I love the tree behind you. The Christmas tree.

GRISHAM: Pretty good. That's New Mexico right there.

LEMON (on camera): It's really beautiful. Thank you. I'll see you soon. Be safe.

We've got news tonight on the coronavirus vaccine and who might be getting it first, and as the virus rages President-Elect Biden introduces his economic team and promises to create a recovery for everybody.

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JOE BIDEN, 2020 PRESIDENT-ELECT OF THE UNITED STATES: Let me be clear -- with this team and others, we'll add in the weeks ahead, that we're going to create a recovery for everybody, for all. We're going to get this economy moving again.

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LEMON: New developments tonight in the fight against the coronavirus. Vaccine advisers to the CDC voting 13 to 1 to recommend health-care workers and residents of long-term care facilities be first to receive the coronavirus vaccines.

Today the United States added over 168,000 new cases of coronavirus and over 2,400 deaths. Hospitalizations also at a dangerous and record-breaking levels, over 98,000, the highest number of COVID-19 hospitalizations we have ever experienced.

So, joining me now is Dr. Michael Osterholm, a coronavirus adviser to President-Elect Joe Biden and director of the Center for Infectious Disease Research and Policy. Doctor, good to see you once again.

MICHAEL OSTERHOLM, DIRECTOR, CENTER FOR INFECTIOUS DISEASE RESEARCH AND POLICY (on camera): Good to see you, Don.

LEMON: So, let's discuss. The CDC advisory recommending health-care workers and residents at long-term care facilities get priority by a 13-1 vote. What's the next step?

OSTERHOLM: Well, this is in fact the very first of the recommendations that will be made. This will take care of the roughly the 24 million people who will be vaccinated by the end of the year. Then the committee is going to have to decide whose next, who's after that. Essential workers, people at high risk for serious disease, et cetera, and that recommendation was not yet addressed.

LEMON: Yes. I said there was 13 to 1. So, the one no vote came from Dr. Helen Talbot of Vanderbilt University. She's worried that the vaccine hasn't been studied enough in residents of long-term facilities. And she said this, she said, we hope it works and we hope it's safe. That concerns me on many levels. I got to tell you, a lot of those folks have other health issues. Are you worried about adverse reactions to the vaccine?

OSTERHOLM: We surely have to be mindful of that, but at this point, no. I think the issues that we have to deal with is -- well, I would consider it a classic risk/benefit issue. One, what is the risk of getting this infection and dying? That's a pretty bad outcome there.

Where the question around the vaccine, will it actually protect these people? We know for example with influenza vaccines that older individuals, particularly those in long-term care facilities that have underlying health problems don't respond to the vaccine as well for full protection.

So I think that's the real challenge we have right now -- will it protect the people? And you know, where we're at with long-term care and the number of cases that are occurring there and the number of deaths I think it's a wise move to go ahead and take the vaccine and put it into that area right now. LEMON: So, doctor, two senior administration sources telling CNN that

the CDC will soon reduce the number of quarantine days from 14 to possibly 10 or maybe even seven days with a negative test. Do you think more people will follow the rules if they have to quarantine for a shorter amount of time?

OSTERHOLM: I think they will follow the quarantine rules. Remember, when the 14-day quarantine was set up it was very early into the pandemic when we had less information than we do today. And if you actually look at the studies that address, when does someone actually become infectious and have clinical signs and symptoms after having been exposed, we see that most of that does occur in the first seven days.

So, if one is following someone for seven days versus 14 and then particularly if you have a negative test, that really is likely to have a much more positive impact than people who say, well, I can't do 14 days, so they really don't do it at all. So, I think this is a smart move, and it will help us.

[23:25:14]

LEMON: Doctor, CNN has obtained a document from operation warp speed to state Governors, and it says that Pfizer's vaccine will be ready to ship December 15th. Moderna around December 22nd. So, once the states have them, how will they distribute them?

OSTERHOLM: Well, each state has its own plan, and they're working with their own local health-care providers, their hospitals, and they'll make that determination. So, I imagine it's going to look different in each of the states in terms of which hospitals are going to receive the vaccine first.

Remember, even within a hospital, which workers will get the vaccine first. It has to be determined yet, so those are all part of those plans that are being worked on at the local level right now.

LEMON: Yes. The FDA Commissioner Hahn was summoned to the White House today for a meeting with Chief of Staff Mark Meadows. The president is pushing for faster approval for Pfizer's vaccine. Is there a fine line between the need for expediency and pushing too hard and how that might impact the public's trust?

OSTERHOLM: You know, it's very important that these vaccines be approved through the standard process of vigorous review by outside advisory groups as well as inside the FDA. I have confidence that's what's being done right now.

And so at this point I believe the science will rule the day, and that's what's important for the public to know also, that they must trust these vaccines when they come out. The only way for that to happen is to have a science-based approach, which is exactly what the Biden/Harris administration has indicated it will do. Everything will be based on the science.

LEMON: Dr. Osterholm, always a pleasure. Thank you, sir. OSTERHOLM: Thank you, thank you, sir.

LEMON: So take this, holiday season in full swing at the White House. Even in the middle of the COVID-19 pandemic, the halls decked out with a theme of America the beautiful. The first lady Melania Trump posting a video on Twitter.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

(MUSIC PLAYING)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON (voice over): So, the decorations are beautiful. I love decorating my house too, as well. We know Melania Trump hasn't always felt that way. Here's what she said about it. This was back in 2018 when she was talking to her former friend, Stephanie Winston Wilkoff, who was an informal adviser to the East Wing, and wrote a tell-all book including how the first lady was stressed out about the constant press coverage of her.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MELANIA TRUMP, FIRST LADY OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, DONALD TRUMP'S WIFE: They say I'm complicit. I'm the same like him, I support him. I don't say enough. I don't do enough.

STEPHANIE WINSTON WILKOFF, INFORMAL ADVISER TO THE EAST WING: No.

M. TRUMP: Where I am, I put the -- I'm working like a -- my ass off at Christmas stuff.

WINSTON WILKOFF: I know.

M. TRUMP: That you know, who gives a (BEEP) about Christmas stuff and decorations but I need to do it right?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON (on camera): Well, imagine if Michelle Obama had been caught on tape saying F-Christmas. So, the first lady also posting photos with a group of young Americans who helped create some of the ornaments that are part of the holiday display. Most of the guests are wearing masks but not Mrs. Trump.

The president and the first lady planning to host more than a dozen holiday parties after a series of super spreader recently like the Rose Guard ceremony where President Trump introduced his Supreme Court nominee. Nearly a dozen people later tested positive for COVID-19, including the president and the first lady.

And following the election night gathering at the White House, more positive cases. Congresswoman Ilhan Omar, a Minnesota Democrats who has been a frequent target of the president taking a page from Melania Trump's be best initiative and retweeting the first lady's video saying, the White House is beautifully decorated and can be appreciated by all if we don't allow politics to dilute everything.

Attorney General Bill Barr breaking with the president over his election fraud claims, but will anything in the president's dangerous election fraud fantasy? That as the president is still trying to throw out votes in Wisconsin. The secretary of the state of Wisconsin weighs in next.

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[23:30:00]

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LEMON: So Bill Barr is the attorney general. You know that. He's one of President Trump's most loyal lieutenants, derailing his boss's claim of widespread voter fraud. Barr telling the Associated Press -- quote -- "To date, we have not seen fraud on a scale that could have affected a different outcome in the election."

Let's discuss now. CNN legal analyst Mr. Elie Honig is here. Thank you, sir. Esquire, I should call you.

(LAUGHTER)

LEMON: Thank you, Elie, for joining. So you say this is a devastating blow to all of President Trump's election conspiracy theories. What does it mean that it's coming from Bill Barr, the great enabler?

ELIE HONIG, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Yeah, Don, this one's got to sting. I mean, can you imagine? Bill Barr, over the last two years, has consistently been one of President Trump's fiercest, most loyal enablers and sidekicks. And now, even he is saying too much for me, there's nothing there.

And let's remember, it was only a few months ago when Bill Barr was sounding the president's talking points about massive fraud and the threat of massive fraud. He had no proof. But now, here we are, the election is over, DOJ has taken a look and they found nothing, and even Bill Barr has to acknowledge it's just over.

[23:34:59]

LEMON: You know, Elie, Rudy Giuliani has responded with a statement, saying that Barr -- he calls it an opinion -- is without knowledge. You know, it's not a clash of the titans when it comes to credibility between these two men, but what is Rudy Giuliani talking about?

HONIG: Rudy Giuliani is so far gone, Don, that -- it's really sort of a sad moment for me as an SDNY alum, where Rudy Giuliani used to run it. And let's be clear here. It's not Rudy Giuliani versus Bill Barr. I mean, they both have very serious credibility problems. It's Rudy Giuliani versus the entire justice department, which has been on Bill Barr's orders, investigating, looking for this. They can't find it.

And also in DOJ's corner is the FBI. Chris Wray has said this, which is part of DOJ. And DHS, Chris Krebs said the same thing and got fired as a result. So, Rudy is really out on an island all by himself at this point.

LEMON: That's really -- think about all these things. I mean, they're living in la-la land and even -- I think about all the commissions and people he's impanelled and all that that have had to go away because he could find nothing, right? Like the voter fraud and all of that.

But he is revealing -- I say that because he's also saying that he's appointing John Durham as a special counsel to look into the origins of the investigation in the 2016 Trump campaign, which will likely carry over to the Biden administration. I mean, could Biden fire Durham? What's going on?

HONIG: Well, this makes it harder, Don. So let me put this in some perspective. One thing the prosecutors are really good at is when they have a really bad case. We used to call them dogs. When you have a dog, just assign it to someone else. Let someone else handle it. I have plenty dumped on me.

This is the ultimate dump of the ultimate dog. This case is going nowhere. It has been a massive disappointment for Donald Trump, who was hoping for this great October surprise. Durham by all appearances does not have that, was not able to deliver before the election.

And now by doing what he did today, Bill Barr is basically saying, next attorney general, it is going to be your problem. You're going to have to deal with this.

LEMON: Yes.

HONIG: So, I think that is really the intent here.

(LAUGHTER)

LEMON: OK, very, very smart, and we're paying for it, right? Are the taxpayers paying for all this investigation, all these people who do that work?

HONIG: Oh, you know it. You know it. We're going to maybe someday get a big fat report saying that the whole thing was a big dud.

(LAUGHTER)

LEMON: Yeah, that's -- you missed the open to the 10 o'clock show. But I've got to ask you, though, because Durham, as you said, he was under intense pressure to release his findings before Election Day. If you listen to state media, oh, the Durham report, wait until Durham --

(LAUGHTER)

LEMON: And again, a conspiracy theory or -- I don't know. It is something that nothing ever came up. But what's the point of this?

HONIG: Yeah. At this point, that's a great question. I mean, we're not even talking about the prior election. We're now talking about two elections ago, right? 2016. That's ancient history at this point. And look, DOJ was willing to bend the rules. Normally, you don't announce an investigation within 60 days of an election. Bill Barr has said publicly, no, you know, I may be willing to do this for Durham. But guess what? He didn't have anything worth announcing. And let us remember, there was pressure on Durham because his top lieutenant, Nora Dannehy, resigned.

LEMON: Yeah.

HONIG: She resigned because she believed they were under undue pressure. But ultimately, it's the same theme really with the election fraud thing and Durham. Bill Barr can twist the truth. He can twist the facts. He can distort the law. He's done plenty of that over two years. But he is not a wizard. He can't conjure something out of thin air when there is just no evidence, when it just doesn't exist.

LEMON: Oh, but they try. So, tonight, we are seeing these court records that show the DOJ is investigating a potential pardon bribery scheme. I mean, it doesn't involve a government official, but what are the legal implications here, a potential bribery scheme?

HONIG: Yeah, it's so interesting. First of all, the president recently tweeted this is fake news. It is not fake news. It's in court documents. What we know is some person who is not known was trying to engineer a pardon by paying money to some entity.

Now, look, we don't know who the recipient was. We can guess all day. It could be any number of people could receive a pardon. But there's only one person who can give a pardon, and we know who that is.

Now, maybe the money can go directly to that person, but there are plenty of political groups affiliated with that person. There are plenty of ways to make a payment that could please that person.

So, the important thing here that really jumped out to me is DOJ understands that the pardon power can be used in a criminal way, and it's encouraging to me to see that they're at least investigating the possibility that if there's foul play, if there's bribery, if there's obstruction, that should be a crime and DOJ is treating it as a potential crime. I think that's a good thing.

LEMON: Elie Honig, always a pleasure. Thank you, sir.

HONIG: You too, Don. Thanks.

LEMON: The Trump Campaign is seeking to throw out hundreds of thousands of votes in Wisconsin. Wisconsin's secretary of state joins me next.

[23:40:00]

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LEMON: So, the Trump Campaign keeping up the court battles in Wisconsin, seeking to throw out 221,000 votes just one day after Governor Tony Evers certified Biden's win in that state. The long shot lawsuit alleges recounts in two heavily democratic counties uncovered serious legality issues, OK, in the way that ballots were cast and counted, specifically taking aim at absentee voting in the state.

[23:45:04]

LEMON: So joining me now to discuss is Wisconsin's secretary of state, Douglas La Follette. I am so happy to have you on. I really appreciate it. So let's get to the bottom of this, shall we?

The results have been certified in your state. The lawsuit doesn't claim any of the voters were ineligible to vote in Wisconsin. So, what's the problem?

DOUGLAS LA FOLLETTE, WISCONSIN SECRETARY OF STATE: Well, no, like you said, I signed the certificate of electors yesterday at about 4:30 and that ended the process. And now, of course, as you know, there are five days possible for lawsuits. So they filed their lawsuits and like I said -- I heard you say before, it's la-la land in Wisconsin, because this case, again, has no merit, and we can talk about some of the details.

Basically, rather than try to individually decide that that vote or that vote was wrong, for some reason, they've picked whole classes of votes. For example, they picked 17,200 some ballots that were delivered on weekends to the election facilities in city parks.

Because of the virus epidemic, they decided to have a public opening area where people could bring their ballots and deposit them in safe locations with elected officials there to supervise, and there were 17,000 of those over two weekends that were deposited. So they're saying that that process is not legal.

And then the other thing they want to do is we have early voting as many places do. In fact, our good president was encouraging early voting, if I remember. And so early voting, you go into a location and you sign up and you vote, and you don't need to file an absentee ballot form to do that because you're not really voting absentee, you're voting early.

But they're claiming that some 100,000 ballots are invalid because people voted early. So that's the kind of thing they're up to and it has no merit.

LEMON: Oh, no.

LA FOLLETTE: I'm hoping that our Supreme Court will see through this nonsense.

LEMON: So then what is the cost to Wisconsin, and really the country, I should be asking you, to have to keep dealing with these challenges?

LA FOLLETTE: Well, they had to pay $3 million for the recount, and then that covered the cost of the recount. This challenge doesn't cost a whole lot because it's just a matter of appearing before the Supreme Court, and he'll have his lawyers here. I'm not sure that our good friend Giuliani is coming to Wisconsin or not. Of course, we'll have our attorney general defending the process.

I think the court may refuse to take the case. In other places, Pennsylvania, et cetera, the court has said there's no merit. We're not even going to take this case. So we'll see. Our court is divided. It's 4-3, Republican. But there's at least one Republican who has shown some common sense in the past.

LEMON: Mm-hmm.

LA FOLLETTE: So I'm hoping that our court will just see this for what it is, another way for Trump to continue to raise millions of dollars from his loyal fans.

LEMON: Hundred and seventy million so far. So what about the political --

LA FOLLETTE: My goodness.

LEMON: -- cost? The longer these legal challenges go on, the longer there will be people who believe there must be something to them. Are you worried about this undermining the faith in the election process in Wisconsin?

LA FOLLETTE: Yeah. All sort of joking aside, Don, you're absolutely right. I have been in government, in politics, and academia for many years and it's very sad to see our democracy being trashed by this president and his minions like Mr. McConnell and other people that refuse to acknowledge the election results.

It is bewildering. It is bewildering to me how so many of millions of citizens, who you and I walk by every day on the street if we're out walking with our masks on, can really believe this sort of thing. And I don't know how long it's going take for us to win back the democratic process of voting and electing our leadership that we had here for so many years until recently.

LEMON: Secretary La Follette, best of luck to you. Thank you so much.

LA FOLLETTE: You bet, Don. Thank you very much.

LEMON: We'll be right back.

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[23:50:00]

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LEMON (on camera): This year, CNN Heroes is focusing on the fight against the coronavirus and the battle for racial equality and social justice. As part of Giving Tuesday, we are making it easy for you to help by highlighting eight organizations doing very important work to help on both fronts and make the world a better place.

Anderson Cooper tells us more now.

(BEGIN VIDEO TAPE)

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR (voice-over): The Center for Disaster Philanthropy provides strategies to help donors increase the impact of their contributions during global crises like COVID-19.

[23:54:58]

COOPER (voice-over): Chef Jose Andres and his World Central Kitchen feed the needy in times of crisis, using the power of food to heal and strengthened communities.

JOSE ANDRES, CHEF: We need to be part of the solution.

COOPER (voice-over): Adopt a Classroom advances equity in education by giving teachers and schools access to the resources they need.

GLENN CLOSE, ACTOR AND ACTIVIST: I challenge every American family to no longer whisper about mental illness behind closed doors.

COOPER (voice-over): Co-founded by Glenn Close, Bring Change to Mind is working to end stigmas surrounding mental illness by encouraging dialogue and raising awareness, understanding, and empathy.

The Make a Wish Foundation provides life-changing experiences for children battling critical illness, restoring in them --

UNKNOWN: Thank you.

COOPER (voice-over): -- a sense of childhood and giving normalcy to their families.

The Equal Justice Initiative fights to end mass incarceration and excessive punishment in the United States by challenging racial and economic inequity and protecting basic human right in the prison system.

UNKNOWN: (INAUDIBLE).

COOPER (voice-over): Water.org has helped change the lives of millions of people with access to safe water and sanitation in 17 countries around the world.

And finally, Issue Voter is increasing civic engagement beyond the voting booth --

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COOPER (voice-over): -- helping people share their views on new bills with elected officials with just one click.

UNKNOWN: We can create the world that we want to live in through representative of democracy by making all of our wishes heard on the issues.

COOPER (voice-over): Want to learn more? Go to cnnheroes.com and click "donate" to any of this year's organizations to make a direct contribution to their GoFundMe charity campaign. You'll receive an e- mail confirming your donation, which is tax deductible in the United States.

(END VIDEO TAPE)

LEMON (on camera): And again, if you want to learn more about each organization, go to cnnheroes.com. Don't forget to tune in to the 14th -- can you believe it, it has been 14 -- 14th annual CNN Heroes: An All-Star Tribute on Sunday, December 13th, 8:00 p.m. Eastern, of course, right here on CNN.

Thanks for watching, everyone. Our coverage continues.

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