Return to Transcripts main page

Don Lemon Tonight

Trump Is Frustrated After Barr Says No Election Fraud, But Aides Don't Want Him Fired; Source Says To Expect Flurry Of Pardons Before President Trump Leaves Office; U.S. Sees Record Number Of COVID-19 Deaths And 100,000-Plus Hospitalizations; Biden Holds Virtual Roundtable With Workers And Small Business Owners Impacted By The Pandemic; Former Presidents Volunteer To Get The Coronavirus Vaccine Publicly To Prove Its Safety; Democratic Officials Face Criticism For Not Following Their Own Coronavirus Advice; Obama Warns Dems Against Snappy Slogan. Aired 11p-12a ET

Aired December 02, 2020 - 23:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[23:00:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DON LEMON, CNN HOST: So here's our breaking new. Sources say President Trump is frustrated that the attorney general, William Barr, is saying that there's no evidence of widespread fraud in the election as Trump continues to falsely claim. Aides are discouraging him from firing Barr. But "The Washington Post" is reporting that Trump is so angry that he may get rid of the A.G.

Also tonight, a source is saying that we can expect a flurry of pardons before Trump leaves office, possibly for members of his family and maybe even for himself.

And as the U.S. reports a record number of COVID-19 -- of high COVID- 19 deaths today, the head of the CDC is warning the virus could kill 450,000 Americans by February.

There's a lot to discuss. Joining me now are CNN White House correspondent John Harwood, CNN political analyst Ron Brownstein, and professor of economics at the University of Chicago, Austan Goolsbee. Good to see all of you. Good to have all of you on.

John, I'm going to start with you. President Trump is livid with the attorney general for telling the truth about the election. Is he going to get fired?

JOHN HARWOOD, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Who knows, Don? As we saw from the president's lunatic 46-minute video that he released tonight, he's just not all there mentally or emotionally right now. He's upset. He's delusional. He's trying to protect his ego. He's lashing out. He's trying to protect his options going forward.

And so he couldn't accept Bill Barr, who has done everything possible to protect the president politically up to now, finally drawing a line and saying what is obvious to everyone looking at the election, which is that it was not decided by systemic election fraud. We have seen since the attorney general said that to the AP yesterday, we've seen the president's campaign saying in effect Barr doesn't know what he's talking about. He hasn't done an election -- he hasn't done full investigation.

With all due respect, Barr has been over at the White House. That was to be shoot out over what he has said. The president is also upset that through the prosecutor that he turned to, John Durham, he has not charged people with the origins of the Trump-Russia investigation, which began in 2015, 2016.

LEMON: Yeah.

HARWOOD: So, this is a president who doesn't always behave rationally. He has got a little over six weeks left in his administration. He is staggering towards the finish line. We don't know what he is going to do.

[23:05:00]

HARWOOD: But as you indicated in the run-up, the advisers are trying to talk him out of it.

LEMON: Mm-hmm.

HARWOOD: It's hard to see what purpose could be served by firing him, but that doesn't always stop the president.

LEMON: I have to correct you because if you remember, he said the oranges of the investigation, not the origins.

(LAUGHTER)

HARWOOD: Correct, you got it.

(LAUGHTER)

LEMON (on camera): I don't know if you guys remember that. OK, listen. The CDC director says that the next three months will be the most difficult time in public health history of this entire nation that we've ever seen. But the Trump administration is still having parties. So, this is the press secretary, Kayleigh McEnany. She's defending it. Here it is.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KAYLEIGH MCENANY, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: If you can loot businesses, burn down buildings, and engage in protests, you can also go to a Christmas party. You can celebrate the holiday at Christmas, and you can do it responsibly.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON (on camera): So, John, you covered the White House. The rules just don't apply to team Trump? HARWOOD: No, and honestly, it's a ridiculous argument that they make to liken this to demonstrations. We're talking about events that the White House controls, that they invite people to. They crowd them into particular rooms.

Protests were things that spontaneously happen. Many of the people were wearing masks in the protests. But that's not something that an authority figure could control, turn the switch on and off. This is entirely -- something entirely different.

But this is an administration where at least half of the top aides in the White House have gotten coronavirus. The president and his family have gotten coronavirus. Kayleigh McEnany, the White House press secretary, has gotten coronavirus. They seem to be trying on their own to generate herd mentality at least in the District of Columbia and it's quite irresponsible.

LEMON: And it's a really dumb excuse because even if it's bad behavior, right? And we did talk about the folks out there who were protesting in the middle of the pandemic. If you believe the behavior is wrong, then why would you repeat it, right? They kept calling out protesters and calling out the rioters and all this. So, then why would you repeat their behavior if you think it's wrong? Ron --

HARWOOD: Exactly. It makes sense no sense --

LEMON: It makes absolutely no sense.

HARWOOD: -- to treat whether or not you're going to subject yourself and others to illness as a matter of fairness. It's a matter of using your brain.

LEMON: It's a matter of dumbness to them. So, Ron, more than 100,000 people in this country is hospitalized with coronavirus tonight. That is a new record. It's only going to get worse. But the president is doing nothing. How can his party -- actually, I don't know why I'm asking you they remained silent because they've remained silent the last five years. But go on.

RON BROWNSTEIN, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: Right. Well, look, I mean, look, you know, the CDC had said this could be the most difficult period for public health in the history of the county.

It could be the most difficult period for the health of the democracy that we have seen, these final weeks of the Trump presidency, where he has essentially gone AWOL with the country under siege from the virus that is ravaging communities, putting hospitals in unbearable strain, overwhelming health care systems in communities around the country.

And he has walked away like, you know, as I've often said, like a navy captain abandoning the bridge in the middle of the battle to retreat to his state room to plot out his own fantasies of how he's going to kind of get away and revenge himself.

And through it all, it is astonishing that congressional Republicans have not only indulged him in these poisonous fantasies about the election, but refused to put any appropriate yum on him for walking away from the country.

Marco Rubio found time to tweet to complain that too many of Biden's appointments have Ivy League pedigrees, but he has not found the capacity to say a word about the president kind of abandoning the country, even as cases spike again in his home state.

You don't get here in a day, Don. It was the systemic enabling of Trump all throughout his presidency by Republicans who has taken us to this extraordinary point in the health of the country and the health of the democracy.

LEMON (on camera): Austan, you've stood by very patiently, and so I want to ask you about the president-elect Biden meeting virtually today with workers and small business owners who are really struggling to get by. Let us listen to what he said and then we will talk about it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT-ELECT OF THE UNITED STATES: I promise you, hang on. We're going to get through this. You're going to get through this. It's going to be hard as hell for the next 50 to 70 days unless the House acts in some way and the Senate acts and passes some of this material.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON (on camera): So, Austan, how important is it to get a stimulus deal to help the economy? Could we see a double dip recession?

AUSTAN GOOLSBEE, PROFESSOR OF ECONOMICS, UNIVERSITY OF CHICAGO: I think we could. I think it's critically important. I've said from the beginning of this, back in March, that the number one rule of virus economics is that you want to help the economy, you got to get control of the spread of the virus.

[23:09:57]

GOOLSBEE: The virus is spreading completely out of control and that's at the least going to stall out the recovery. And quite possibly, if the dark scenario for the virus takes place, quite possibly could send us into another recession.

I would point out the two greatest economic crises of the last century in the United States both exploded during the transition in both the great depression in 1932 and the financial crisis in 2008 going into 2009.

They both exploded in the transition in exactly this kind of form, that the outgoing president was just done with it, doesn't want to have anything to do with it, kind of walks away, and we're all sitting there while the thing spirals out of control.

There's a high, high danger that this doesn't just lead to thousands of people dying unnecessarily, leads to a whole second economic catastrophe. LEMON: Mm-hmm. So, let's talk about that, about some tangible things that could be happening, Austin. Biden has been saying that a relief package is his top priority, even before he takes office, right? He says that's his top priority. Do you think he is pressing Pelosi behind the scenes to get something done?

GOOLSBEE: I do. I mean, I'm not a political expert, I'm just the policy guy, but you saw a group of Republicans and Democrats together come out and say, let's try to break this log jam because the country really needs it. And you saw the democratic leadership, Pelosi and Schumer say, fine, let's start with that, let's use that as the starting point for discussion.

I think the problem has been and remains that Mitch McConnell doesn't want to do a deal. It seems like maybe he has decided that if he were to do a deal before the Georgia elections, that it might demoralize the base or I don't know what his motivation is, but he's -- he wants to block it.

And so I'm not optimistic. I think the president-elect is correct that everybody's got to hang on and hold their breath, but I think it's going to be pretty hard because you're just not getting leadership from the White House on that.

LEMON (on camera): I enjoy having all of you on. Thank you. Thank you so much. I appreciate it.

So, make sure you watch this, it is president-elect Joe Biden and the vice president-elect Kamala Harris. They're going to join Jake Tapper for their first joint interview since winning the White House. A CNN special event is tomorrow night at 9:00 right here on CNN. I'm going to be here at 10:00 right after that and we're going to have some great analysis of that interview. So make sure you tune in.

The pandemic is ravaging our country. A record number of deaths reported today, more than 2,600. And with two vaccines close to getting emergency use authorization, will the former presidents get the shot? Well, I'll let one of them tell you.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BARACK OBAMA, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES (voice-over): People like Anthony Fauci, who I know, and I've worked with, I trust completely. So, if Anthony Fauci tells me this vaccine is safe, and can vaccinate, you know, immunize you from getting COVID, absolutely I'm going to take it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[23:15:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: So, breaking news, three former presidents all volunteering to get the COVID-19 vaccine on camera. Presidents Barack Obama, George W. Bush, and Bill Clinton have all said that they will take the vaccine on camera to promote public confidence in the vaccine's safety.

Let's discuss now. CNN medical analyst Dr. Jonathan Reiner is here. Doctor, good to see you. Thanks for joining. All former presidents will get the vaccine, right? They're focused on convincing the American people the vaccine is safe, while the current president is busy trying to take credit and, I don't know, run conspiracy theories about the election.

JONATHAN REINER, CNN MEDICAL ANALYST, DIRECTOR OF CARDIAC CATHETERIZATION PROGRAM AT GEORGE WASHINGTON UNIVERSITY HOSPITAL: Yeah, well, you know, the outgoing president is becoming increasingly irrelevant. I'm focusing on what needs to be done going forward. And I think the plan and the offer by the three former presidents to get vaccinated on camera is fabulous.

You know, I think we really need to start promoting vaccine safety. We'll see a lot of the data next week, I think, when it's presented to the FDA. And assuming the vaccine or vaccines look as good as the top line data looks, we really need to start educating the public.

I'm worried less about people trying to elbow their way to the front of the line than I am about getting enough people vaccinated quickly enough --

LEMON: Mm-hmm.

REINER: -- to achieve herd immunity as quickly as possible.

LEMON: Yeah, and you've got to get people in there to take it. You saw the nurse -- I hope you saw the nurse who was on earlier.

REINER: Yeah.

LEMON: She was a COVID nurse, and then she got it --

REINER: Pretty powerful.

LEMON: Unbelievable. So, what will the impact be of seeing all these men get vaccinated? You think it will really help, right?

REINER: I think it will really help. But we need a bipartisan plan to do this. You know, moreover, we really need to get down to the grassroots in the communities where there is a lot of vaccine skepticism.

Every -- I saw patients in clinic today. Every single patient I asked if they'll take the COVID vaccine, and there's not as much enthusiasm as I like to see. So, I try and educate patients every week.

LEMON: Can I ask you one thing before you go on?

REINER: Yeah.

LEMON: Is that because it was -- you know, I know the current president keeps saying, oh, Operation Warp Speed. That is the name -- it happened so quickly. Do you think that has people concerned that this happened so quickly that maybe it wasn't studied long enough? Go on. Sorry to interrupt.

REINER: Yeah.

[23:20:00]

REINER: I think it's different for different people. I think some people say, gee, they really rushed this and I don't want to be the first to get it. You know, there's quite a bit of vaccine skepticism, appropriately so perhaps in the African-American community because of some historic, you know, horrible deeds done in this country, particular the Tuskegee experiments.

You know, there is a lot of vaccine skepticism, which is deeply seeded. So, I want to see education really down at the grassroots throughout the country in the communities, in the churches, in the schools, to educate people about the safety and the importance to the community at large of vaccinating everybody.

LEMON (on camera): So, on the pandemic, terrible records being set today. More than 100,000 Americans hospitalized with COVID-19 and over 2,600 deaths reported today. I want you to listen to this from the CDC, Director Redfield.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ROBERT REDFIELD, DIRECTOR, CENTERS FOR DISEASE CONTROL AND PREVENTION: We're in that range potentially now starting to see 1,500 to 2,000 to 2,500 -- and that's a day -- from this virus. So, yeah, the mortality concerns are real, and I do think unfortunately before we see February, we could be close to 450,000 Americans have died from this virus.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON (on camera): So, I think, doctor, that the number is so large, it's so huge that it's hard for people to wrap their heads around it. I mean, close to 450,000 dead by February. It's staggering, especially with a vaccine that's so close.

REINER: Yeah. So, think of it this way. This will end up being the most costly war that this country has ever fought in terms of human life, American lives. But somehow, you know, a large part of the country goes about thinking that everything is just normal.

We're going to lose more people to this virus than we lost in World War II, and that's coming quickly. And I'm concerned that as our hospitals fill, the deaths will not simply be folks dying of COVID-19 but people dying of heart attacks and strokes because our hospitals are stressed and breaking.

So, you know, the time is now to hunker down and come together and starts flattening the curve. You know, all across the country, this is happening. This is different than in the spring where we saw this in New York and Chicago and Boston. This is all across the country, particularly in the Midwest.

LEMON: Doctor, thank you. I appreciate it.

REINER: My pleasure.

LEMON: So, I want you to take a look at this. This was a scene at a New Jersey restaurant on Thanksgiving eve. This was last week, OK? Cases are skyrocketing in New Jersey, and Governor Phil Murphy is putting the mostly maskless partyers on blast, writing, we will not tolerate knucklehead behavior like this that puts people at risk.

Governor Murphy himself was confronted for eating outdoors at a restaurant though he wasn't violating any orders by doing so. We all need to listen to Governor Murphy's advice, including the fellow Democratic leaders. This is the case and point, OK?

San Francisco Mayor London Breed apologizing yesterday for attending a dinner party in an exclusive Napa Valley restaurant -- that was in November -- despite urging her constituents to avoid those types of gatherings.

A spokesman for Mayor Breed says that she sat at an open air table and that both San Francisco and Napa County were allowing outdoor and indoor dining at the time. But some are claiming hypocrisy here, especially with the mayor announcing yesterday that San Francisco officials are considering shutting down outdoor dining entirely.

Mayor Breed is not the only elected official in California to come under fire recently. The governor, Gavin Newsom, is admitting that he shouldn't have attended a birthday party last month at the same swanky restaurant as Mayor Breed with a dozen people from several different households despite state health guidelines recommending against such gatherings.

And after voting to prohibit outdoor dining in Los Angeles County last week, the county supervisor, Sheila Kuehl, was spotted squeaking in at a last meal really out one night before the order took effect.

Thanksgiving also providing or proving to be an area where elected leaders are showing questionable judgment. So, think about this. I want to show you. This is San Jose Mayor Sam Liccardo apologizing yesterday for spending Thanksgiving at his parent's house with some of his siblings after tweeting that big gatherings should be cancelled.

[23:24:56]

LEMON (on camera): The mayor of Denver, Michael Hancock, apologizing last week for hopping a flight to Mississippi to celebrate with his family shortly after he had tweeted that people should avoid travel and host virtual gatherings.

And then New York Governor Andrew Cuomo backtracked on holiday plans after saying during a radio interview that he was planning to have extended family over, including his 89-year-old mother. It doesn't matter what party they belong to. Leaders are elected to make tough choices, to practice what they preach. They're elected to lead. It's time for our elected officials on both sides of the aisle to realize that, and especially Democratic leaders, who have been saying the president is wrong, he needs to follow the guidelines, you need to wear a mask, and on and on and on.

You cannot be the hypocrites in this. If you're telling people to do one thing, you should do the same thing. Don't tell people to do one thing and then you do the other.

Next, his kids, his son-in-law, Rudy Giuliani, maybe even himself, will Trump's pardon plans have prosecutors doubling down on their investigations?

Plus, former President Obama coming out with a warning to his party.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

OBAMA: I guess you can use a snappy slogan like "defund the police" but you know you've lost a big audience the minute you say it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[23:30:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: Here's what sources are telling CNN, that President Trump is frustrated with the attorney general, Bill Barr, after Barr said there was no evidence of widespread election fraud. Those sources say officials are trying to discourage the president from firing Barr. The Washington Post is reporting he is so angry he may fire the attorney general.

Joining me now is CNN's national security and legal analyst Susan Hennessey and former U.S. Attorney Harry Litman. So good to see both of you. Thank you for joining.

Susan, you're up first. So Barr could be on the chopping block after debunking the president's election fraud claims even though all the courts are backing him up. So, what's the point of all this?

SUSAN HENNESSEY, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY AND LEGAL ANALYST: I think the most probable answer is that there is no point. What we're witnessing right now is essentially a presidential temper tantrum.

Bill Barr is unwilling to give the president what he wants in part because Bill Barr is unable to give the president what he wants. There is no evidence of widespread voting fraud despite Bill Barr attempting to sort of gin up these specious investigations. He just couldn't come up with anything.

And so, you know, that might make the president very angry, you know, but there's not a lot that Bill Barr at the end of the day can do about it. If Donald Trump were to fire Bill Barr at this point, I also don't think it would have a huge amount of impact within the Department of Justice.

You know, one question though is whether or not Bill Barr's decision to appoint John Durham as special counsel or form of special counsel was essentially sort of an attempt to calm the president down and say, yes, you know, I can't substantiate or support your claims of voter fraud, but, you know, here's a little treat, here's a little something you can have to make yourself feel better, you know, for the next 40 days.

LEMON: Harry, Andrew Weissman, who served as Robert Mueller's lead prosecutor, told CNN this could be a play by Barr to rebuild his reputation. Questions for you, is it possible that that's the reason? Is it even possible for him to attempt that at this point?

HARRY LITMAN, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR, FORMER U.S. ATTORNEY, FORMER DEPUTY ASSISTANT ATTORNEY GENERAL: It's hard. The last two months, he has been more quiet. But it really is like what have you done for me lately, after everything he's done for Trump to now -- for Trump now be reportedly livid and ready to fire him.

I also agree with Susan, it wouldn't really do anything. Jeff Rosen takes over, whoever takes over, won't change what happens there. Look, when asked, you know, is there fraud, he told the truth. That's not that radical a step, except in Donald Trump's world. And it's ironic, given what a good soldier Barr has been, that he now finds himself crosswise.

LEMON: Mm-hmm.

LITMAN: This will help his reputation a little, but I think he'll always go down as somebody who was so to speak Trump's Donald Cohen.

(LAUGHTER)

LEMON: Roy Cohn, no?

LEMON: Yes, Roy -- that was for you from last week (ph).

LEMON: Oh, OK, got it.

(LAUGHTER)

LEMON: So, listen, there's talk of a flurry -- I get you. There's talk of flurry of pardons. We've seen President Trump use the White House to his advantage, Susan, for his entire presidency. And we just -- are we just waiting here on the inevitable? Is there any reason for him not to do it?

HENNESSEY: Yeah. You know, look, I do think that some degree of pardons is inevitable. Certainly nobody should be surprised by the pardon of Michael Flynn. No one should be surprised that the president is at least considering pardoning his family members, his children and himself. Donald Trump has used and abused the pardon power in self-serving ways from the very beginning of his presidency, his very first pardon of Joe Arpaio used to reward a campaign supporter, and frankly to troll the libs. What we're now is really the apex of a trend of abuse. You know, pardons are really important in the constitutional structure.

LEMON: Yeah.

HENNESSEY: They serve important functions. They correct injustices. They allow expressions of mercy. They're important for national security purposes.

LEMON: That's what they're supposed to be.

HENNESSEY: Presidents have used them to quell rebellions.

LEMON: Yeah.

BENNESSEY: Exactly. That's what it's supposed to be. It is not supposed to be party favors for the president to hand out to people that he likes.

And in this case, with Flynn and now himself and his own family members, it is a form of abuse of the pardon power that we have never seen before in the history of the United States, the fulfilment of corrupt bargains and potentially pardons in order to insulate himself and his children against accountability for crimes against the public, for breaches of the public trust.

[23:35:06]

HENNESSEY: And so just because it's not surprising doesn't mean that it's not shocking and appalling and that it's not a big deal.

LEMON: Amen. I agree. So, Harry, Ivanka Trump was opposed by the D.C. attorney general's office over a lawsuit alleging the Trump inaugural committee and the Trump Organization abused more than $1 million in inaugural funds by grossly overpaying for events space at Trump Hotel.

Trump Organization statesman says that Ivanka's only involvement was connecting the parties and telling the hotel to charge a fair market rate. However, there are e-mails showing other officials flagged at the time. Would a pardon protect her from any liability in this one?

LITMAN: No, I mean, this is the equivalent of a state crime but it's a little bit tenuous. But she has gotten now crosswise with her friend who she was so helpful to in the inauguration.

I just want to second what Susan said. Every single -- 90 percent of Trump's pardons have been for the sort of self-serving reasons. The Department of Justice and others think you can't pardon yourself.

It's perilously close to that to pardon your family members. If you were, say, soliciting a bribe and you said pay Don, Jr. or Jared instead, it wouldn't make it fly. It's no less a kind of violation of public purpose in your duty to faithfully take care. So I think if he pardons his family members, that really could occasionally brouhaha in the courts.

LEMON: Thank you both. I appreciate it.

Former President Barack Obama cautioning his party that calls to defund the police risks alienating many Americans.

Plus Dr. Sanjay Gupta with what it's like to get a coronavirus vaccine.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[23:40:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON (on camera): So, the slogan "defund the police," heard from protesters and progressives Democrats in the aftermath of George Floyd's death, former President Barack Obama is warning about it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

OBAMA: If you believe, as I do, that we should be able to reform the criminal justice system so that it's not biased and treats everybody fairly, I guess you can use a snappy slogan like "defund the police," but you know you've lost a big audience the minute you say it, which makes it a lot less likely that you're actually going to get the changes you want done.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON (on camera): So, let's discuss now, CNN political commentators Angela Rye and Karen Finney. Hello, hello. Here we go. This -- I think this is conversation we've had like on the phone and over texts.

So, Angela, is Barack Obama right? Is "defund the police" a slogan that turns voters away?

ANGELA RYE, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I don't care. I think it's a conversation that needs to be had. And what I would say is I think the moment that we begin to ask politicians to account for and to opine on rhetoric of the activist community is the moment that we walk into real trouble.

Nobody consulted Lyndon B. Johnson on whether or not what Dr. King was saying was appropriate or if it would work or whether or not it would turn off Democratic voters.

I think the real question we need to be asking is something else that was talked about in that interview, and it is why we haven't made space for younger voices who know how to appeal to the very audiences who were out all summer long with the George Floyd?

What we have to wrestle with in the Democratic Party is whether or not incrementalism has served us and whether or not that's resulted in the saving of more black lives and I would argue it has not.

LEMON: I think that's -- I think that is a very good argument about incrementalism. But what you have, something like "defund the police," Angela, it's not a winning strategy. I know you said you don't care, but as an activist, shouldn't you care, because that slogan lost seats, it lost Democrats.

RYE: It actually -- it actually didn't.

LEMON: I know that's a talking point that progressives like to say --

RYE: I'm not espousing a talking point. I'm actually relying on data.

LEMON: No --

RYE: What you'll find --

LEMON: I know you're going to talk about the data. Go on, but I think that the data --

KAREN FINNEY, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I agree with her on that one.

LEMON: The data that you're talking about is something that I know the progressives like to hold on to and say it's the data. But the overall election, it's a small number of people, progressives, who ran on very progressive parts of the democratic ticket, won and held their seats. But for the most part, Democrats who ran on "defund the police" and --

RYE: Who were they?

LEMON: -- and who they call socialism, they lost. Democrats lost across the board. The only Democrat --

RYE: But, Don --

LEMON: -- the only Democrat that won was Biden.

RYE: No, no --

FINNEY: Wait a second.

RYE: That's actually not true, right? First of all -- Karen, I will let you hop in here, but let me just --

FINNEY: Yes.

RYE: -- clarify a couple of things. One, I hope I don't get in trouble for saying this, but let me first say this.

LEMON: No, go on.

RYE: This is not a democratic talking point, right? What I'm referencing is the CBC pack, in concert with the DCCC, actually held a call and talked about not just "defund the police" but around police reform period for the George Floyd Justice in Policing Act, and what you saw is that people were very interested in those reforms. [23:44:57]

RYE: My point is that we should not be in the business of trying to shift when an activist message frame is to get people to the streets to ensure real change in communities.

In fact, if you look at what happened in communities where policing budgets actually take place on a local and state level, there actually were several police budgets that were shifted. There actually were several conversations and city council votes that were held. So, I think to say --

LEMON: Angela, that is not what people hear --

FINNEY: Wait, wait, wait, don. I need to get in here.

LEMON: But that's not what people hear when they hear "defund the police."

FINNEY: Don --

LEMON: They don't hear shift --

RYE: But that's not my responsibility, Don.

LEMON: But as an activist --

RYE: It's somebody's responsibility to keep George Floyd alive.

LEMON: OK. I understand that. But as an activist, and you said -- who did you say, the DCCC did that, that's a political --

FINNEY: I did that poll, guys. Hello.

LEMON: But that's a political -- I will let you get in, but that's a political organization.

RYE: (INAUDIBLE) actually awesome work --

LEMON: Isn't it all about --

FINNEY: I did it with him, Angela.

LEMON: Isn't it all about --

RYE: I said (INAUDIBLE). I didn't say, not you.

LEMON: -- and winning people over so that you can have some power, because you can't do any of that. You can't. If you indeed want to defund the police, you cannot do it if you're not in power, if you don't have someone in that position to help you do what you want to do. Go on, Karen.

FINNEY: So, the three things I'm going to say here. First of all, Cornell and I (ph) did do that poll together, Angela. I wasn't saying you weren't saying that we did -- we did that together. We talked to suburban white women. Frankly, we talked to some suburban white women outside of Chicago not long after some of the violence that had erupted there.

And what we found is, when you talk about the language of what is in the George Floyd Justice in Policing Act, people very much agree with it. They agree with the idea of accountability in policing.

But the -- but I think there's a larger issue and there's a couple of pieces. The activist in me and the black woman in me that has herself been profiled, cuffed, and ended up in a jail cell because of a fine for a ticket --

LEMON: Mm-hmm.

FINNEY: -- knows we need reform, 100 percent. And I get the language that activists are trying to use to push us forward. I don't disagree as a communications expert with President Obama that what can happen is people may not listen to the second sentence --

LEMON: Right.

FINNEY: -- after "defund the police" about the vision that we're talking about when we talk about the changes that are needed not just to our policing and criminal justice systems but in how we reimagine what actual safe communities for black people and white people and brown people and all Americans really looks like.

That's part of why when people want to go testify on Capitol Hill, we don't just talk about the policing side, we have to talk about, you know, having diversion programs and mental health and safe places for our kids to play.

So, it's a whole range of conversations that we have to have. I think personally, we need both. We need the activists who push us forward. We need the policy though. And I do think we need to be able to explain and talk about our policy in ways that would bring people into the conversation with us.

And one of the most important findings that we talked about in that poll is if you are a white American and you do not live with the threat of racism in your daily life, it is a more abstract concept.

LEMON: Mm-hmm.

FINNEY: So, when we talk about some of these reforms that are needed, when you saw the video of George Floyd, you got it. Right away, there is a problem. That doesn't happen every day, so how we engage in these conversations matter.

The last thing I will say, it is absolute nonsense to say that people lost their seats over socialism and "defund the police." That's a much bigger problem about people A, as Angela saying, the data showing those were gerrymandered GOP-leaning districts that we barely won in the first place, and two, a Democratic Party that needs to do a better job showing up everywhere, standing up for our values, defining ourselves, and not letting the Republicans define us in a lot of those places.

LEMON: Listen, we're going to take a break and then we're going to come back because I want to continue this conversation. I think it's going to be a longer conversation.

All I'm saying is you don't give your -- why would you give the people who oppose you ammo and why would you turn people off by a slogan that doesn't work? You can change a slogan and do the same work. But let's talk about it. Angela, you will get the first word on the other side of the break. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[23:50:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: All right. So, we're back now with Angela and Karen. I just want to, Angela, clarify it. What I am saying is that the people who are not -- who didn't run in those progressive seats, who ran in more moderate seats, they were tarnished with "defund the police" language. And I think it hurt them, and I think the evidence showed that.

But my point was before the break is why would you give ammo to the people who oppose you and who can -- why would you do that?

RYE: Because, Don, to me, I won't speak for everyone, but to me, it's a matter of life and death. And I actually disagree with the point that there were people who lost because of "defund the police." I think it's a lazy argument, frankly, and it's been made several times. I'm not saying you're lazy, but the argument itself is one that is convenient.

LEMON: I get what you're saying.

RYE: There are a lot of people in the party who do not support it. For example, even with the Justice in Policing Act, which was, of course, Karen, the purpose of the poll, there are Democrats who did not support justice in policing. It was an avenue to ensure they knew that they had cover because their constituents actually would, in fact, support justice in policing.

[23:55:00]

RYE: Joe Biden doesn't even support all of the provisions in justice in policing. Qualified immunity is one, right? He supports reining (ph) it in. And so, at some point, we have to feel comfortable having the conversations because it is a matter of life and death. It is about black lives mattering.

LEMON: I got 30 seconds. I want to get Karen in. Sorry.

FINNEY: Just very quickly. Look, Don, the truth is, in the election, if it wasn't -- if it hadn't been that, it had been something else, because those folks who lost, it was because millions of dollars were spent against them to define them in a certain way. This -- to what Angela was saying in our last segment, one of the problems that we have, this is also part of why we did this poll, we have to do a better job of defining ourselves and speaking about our values and not falling prey to, oh, they were -- you know, they called us these names.

Because, you know what, if it's not, you know, "defund the police," it's going to be, you know, something else. It's -- that's just the way politics works. And so, I think we have to be able to balance. I hear you but --

LEMON: I just think that -- I think that -- listen. You guys, I respect both of you. I just think that many people have especially in the progressive side, have a blind eye when it comes to this. I don't know anyone who thinks the "defund the police" slogan is a good idea.

Everyone I know thinks that police reform is a good idea. When there's something that's bad and that's not working, you have to explain, don't lean into it. Figure out a way to bring other people in and do a better term. I understand the activists and I understand the political side.

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: But don't say, defund the police. It's terrible. It sounds like -- defunding the police sounds like getting rid of the police, abolishing the police. Most people I know want more police. But they want better policing.

RYE: That's the thing, Don.

LEMON: And they want to pay police more.

RYE: That is the whole thing. That is the whole thing.

FINNEY: They want more safety.

LEMON: I got to go.

FINNEY: They don't want --

LEMON: I agree.

RYE: No, there are people --

LEMON: I agree.

RYE: -- more police.

LEMON: I love you both. I got to go. I'll be right -- not I'll be right back. That's it. I'll see you guys tomorrow.

FINNEY: I agree with you --

(LAUGHTER)

LEMON: Oh, good night. That's it.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)