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Don Lemon Tonight

FDA Panel Recommends Authorization of Pfizer Vaccine; 100 Plus House Republicans Supports Baseless Trump Texas Lawsuit; The Impact of Trump's Lies to the American People; Trump Supporters Echoing Trump's Dangerous Conspiracy Lies; Biden Meeting with Civil Rights Leaders. Aired 11p-12a ET

Aired December 10, 2020 - 23:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[23:00:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DON LEMON, CNN HOST: Finally, a hopeful moment in the battle against the coronavirus. The FDA advisory committee officially recommending emergency use authorization of Pfizer's COVID-19 vaccine. That means nearly 3 million doses of this first vaccine, could ship out within the next 24 hours.

It comes as a record number of Americans are in the hospital tonight, fighting for their lives against this virus. This is a public health nightmare. So, what did our president say about the pandemic today? He said, nothing. Not one word, this is what he said

Nothing. He is focusing on his bogus attempts to overturn the election, and the majority of House Republicans are signing on to help. Joining me now is former Republican Congressman Charlie Dent, also Amanda Carpenter, the former communications director for Senator Ted Cruz, and Ric Pildes is a CNN election law analyst.

Good evening to both of you, but when I say nothing, I went dead air on television, right. As people are afraid of it, but that's the truth. That's what he said. Nothing. Hello Amanda, right? Nothing. But more than 100 House Republicans are publicly supporting this bogus lawsuit, aimed at overturning the election results in states that didn't even vote for Trump, this is insane. I mean, am I nuts, or has everyone gone mad? What's happening?

AMANDA CARPENTER, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: It seems pretty mad to me. What I can't wrap my head around is that all these Republicans are following the lead of Ken Paxton. This is Texas' Attorney General that is currently under FBI investigation, because seven of his senior aides, who are lawyers, who know the law accused him of abusive office, bribery and other criminal schemes.

And so, I just look at this and we know the lawsuit is completely bogus, we know Ken Paxton is in trouble. So just on that alone, how can so many Republicans be following him? Let alone 18 other Attorney Generals? That's kind of just what sends me over the edge today.

(LAUGHTER) LEMON: That's a lot Amanda. I think that would send anybody, the most

rational people over the edge.

(LAUGHTER)

Representative Dent, do you think that your former colleagues who are backing his suit, do you think they actually believe what it's trying to do? Because I thought Republicans were about state's rights, and federalism and you know, all those things?

CHARLIE DENT, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Oh Don, of course not? How can they possibly support such an idiotic initiative by this guy Paxton, who's playing to an audience of one? Just like Amanda referenced, because of his problems. I mean, what the remedy that they're asking for, is to invalidate the votes of millions of voters in these four states, including mine by the way.

I voted by absentee ballot in Pennsylvania, they want to invalidate my vote to. It's very personal. I mean, it's just so outrageous that they want to substitute the judgment of state legislators, for that of the voters. I mean, this is a disenfranchisement on a scale that is simply unimaginable. And all these folks know that this lawsuit is going nowhere.

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And that this is just being done to placate and pacify Donald Trump until he's out of office. I mean, it really is, it's really saddened and shameful.

LEMON: Hey, Ric, standby, because I want to follow up with Charlie with that. Why aren't your colleagues saying anything? Why aren't they standing up? Why aren't they all in front of cameras now and saying this is wrong, don't do it, there are some very few, but why aren't they saying, you guys are crazy, why aren't they're standing up to people who sit next them in Congress, why?

DENT: I think two words, fear and terror. There are fearful that Donald Trump will set the base upon them, and their terror. It's terrifying. And Donald Trump -- look, he senses fear. And he exploits that fear and he knows that he has leverage and he can cause primary problems for them and make their lives miserable.

But people like Adam Kinzinger stood up very strongly, and John Cornyn has questioned the idiocy of this whole thing as well. So, some are standing up, but they need to get 100 members out there to say enough already. This is over, move on and I think that could help change the narrative. They need the truth to counter the false narrative.

LEMON: Yes, Amanda, go quickly. Because I want to get Ric in, go ahead.

CARPENTER: I'll just say a quick point on that one person who is important in the standing off is Represent Chuck Roy, who I used to work with in the Ted Cruz office, who is a former aide to Ken Paxton. Who did a tweetstorm today, calling this a dangerous violation of federalism that would set the stage for other states to police other states elections? So, that is notable.

LEMON: Can he talk to Ted Cruz then? Can you -- (inaudible).

CARPENTER: I think with some of his former staffers would love to talk to Ted Cruz about this.

LEMON: What would you say to him?

(LAUGHTER)

CARPENTER: I would say, Donald Trump lost the election. You don't have to play this game anymore. I believe the man in 2016 that stood up and said that Donald Trump is a serial liar, we all know that list. That's where we need to be, that's the attitude we need to stand up to this. Especially, now that he is on his way out the door, end it.

LEMON: Ric, you have been sitting by patiently. Thank you so much for that, I appreciate it. Republicans are testing the --

CARPENTER: Sorry.

LEMON: No, don't apologize, we're all here to have a conversation, it's an honest conversation. Ric, Republicans are testing the limits of our Democratic institutions, does it seem to you, like the institutions are holding, even if by a thread?

RICHARD PILDES, CNN ELECTION LAW ANALYST: Well, I think what is so concerning here, the institutions are holding up, but we had a pretty decisive election. We actually ran a very smooth well-functioning election. And even so, it's been possible to gin up this level of bogus accounts of so-called fraud, so-called legal violations. You know, we are now at the point that 17 Attorney Generals, have joined this lawsuit.

We have 106 members of the House, who have essentially said they agree with this lawsuit. What's so disturbing is, that even in the best of circumstances, where we had a decisive outcome in a pretty smooth election. We are now at a point that this much controversy and uncertainty can be raised in the minds of many Americans. That is very, very disturbing.

LEMON: I just want to ask you, do you, you are an election law analyst, right? So you know a bit about election law. Does this have a chance in how, this Texas lawsuit?

PILDES: So, when I look at this, it falls apart at the outset for any one of the least six reasons, you don't have time for me to go through all of these reasons. But you know, first of all, a state doesn't have any kind of injury the law recognizes and how another state runs its election. I mean, think about this. Texas this year didn't allow people to vote absentee as a general matter.

If I'm a voter in Pennsylvania, and I think that's unconstitutional in the rights of Texas voters have been violated. I don't have any basis to go into court and challenge that. The suit is broad way too late, the courts don't let you sit around then five weeks after an election bring claims you could've brought much earlier, if there was anything to them.

Third, all these claims have already been adjudicated in the state courts and rejected. And again, if you want to complain about that, you go to the Supreme Court from those state courts. You don't start a whole new lawsuit.

Fourth, you don't bring a suit like this for the first time in the Supreme Court, if you had any claims like this, you bring them in the trial courts, they worked their way up to the system. There's no remedy the court can provide here. The electors are about to vote on Monday. And there is a political process if there are real grievances here, Congress does have a role, not the Supreme Court.

There are so many reasons this suit is just a nonstarter from the very get-go. And the most laughable thing about this, which I haven't seen talked about at all yet. Is that, at the end of its brief, Texas tells the Supreme Court, and you can just decide this for us summarily.

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Which means you don't even have to have an argument about this. So, just picture this. Texas is asking the Supreme Court without an argument, just to issue an opinion someday, throwing out the votes of four states in the United States. I mean, that is obviously laughable, the court will, I think feel insulted actually by that suggestion, so no there is nothing to this.

LEMON: Oh Ric.

(LAUGHTER)

PILDES: Sorry, if I went on too long.

LEMON: No. Listen. You've watched this show and if you know anything about me, if you're going on too long, I'll cut you right off. But I let you have your say, and I let you have the soapbox and we actually learned a lot from that. We are glad to have all of you here.

PILDES: Well, it's very frustrating to those of us who are actual lawyers.

LEMON: Yes. Call Ted Cruz up please, Amanda you know him? Talk to the man and tell him.

CARPENTER: I think my thoughts are very well-known on the manner of Donald Trump.

LEMON: (Inaudible) tape this show. (Inaudible) the link.

CARPENTER: I could send him a book. I can send him a book. Gaslighting America.

(LAUGHTER)

LEMON: Gaslighting America. Tell it quickly, go on. DENT: You know, Texas numbers, you know, Trump did much worse in Texas

than he did in Pennsylvania. He had about 3.4 percent swing in Texas, 1.9 percent in Pennsylvania, 1.4 percent in Wisconsin. Actually, Trump did worse in Texas from 2016 to 2020 than he did in Pennsylvania. If they're worried about widespread fraud, I mean, maybe they want to go and figure out what happen in Texas. I'm serious, I mean, this is just crazy, the whole thing is not.

LEMON: Maybe all these people, the Congressmen and Senators who are really concerned, they should just say, hey, look, they like us. We've got our jobs back for the next couple of years, you didn't so sorry. Bye-bye, thank you all, I appreciate it. I'll see you soon.

DENT: Thank you.

LEMON: More than 74 million Americans voted for President Trump, but how many actually buy in to his unreality? And what will it take to show voters that like these, what's really going on?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNKNOWN: Do you genuinely believe that he kicked Joe Biden's ass? Yes, I do.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: President Trump is becoming increasingly desperate in his attempt to overturn the election. It's over, he lost. In fact, he's losing again and again and again, in recounts and lawsuits. These are the facts. But unfortunately, there is a huge disconnect between many Americans and the facts. A new PBS NPR Marist poll shows that 70 percent of Trump supporters don't believe the election results are accurate. CNN's Donie O'Sullivan spoke to Trump supporters in Georgia, and they believe the same lies.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNKNOWN: Jesus is my savior. Trump is my president.

DONIE O'SULLIVAN, CNN BUSINESS REPORTER (voice-over): He won't be president next month.

UNKNOWN: You don't know that, you don't know that, you assuming that because you're a news media outlet and you all think you all have the power to call the election. But guess what, you don't. You're a news media outlet, you don't call the election.

O'SULLIVAN: Do you genuinely believe that he --

UNKNOWN: Kicked Joe Biden's ass? Yes, I do. Yes, obviously.

O'SULLIVAN: Do you believe that something was wrong with the presidential election here in Georgia?

UNKNOWN: Absolutely, absolutely I think that there was a lot of misconduct going on. O'SULLIVAN: Do you think Biden still won?

UNKNOWN: No, not at all.

O'SULLIVAN: Do you think Trump won?

UNKNOWN: I think Trump won.

O'SULLIVAN: Do you accept that Trump lost Georgia?

UNKNOWN: No.

UNKNOWN: Trump didn't lose anything.

UNKNOWN: No. I don't see how anybody can honestly.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: Joining me now is former White House communications Director Anthony Scaramucci, wow. I mean, hey Anthony.

Is there any convincing those people that they are not living in a world of reality or facts?

ANTONY SCARAMUCCI, FORMER WHITE HOUSE DIRECTOR OF COMMUNICATIONS: No, listen if there was a deprogramming feel that I could put into everybody's stocking for Christmas I would do it. But remember what Mark Twain said, he said that, it is easier for me to fool you then to convince you that I fooled you. And so, when you are locked in, you're locked into that kind of heavy belief, it is very hard to untangle it.

And so, the president knows that. He's preying on that. He's manipulating those people. You have his willing accomplices that, you know, you just kind of think about it. There's 100 plus people that are all elected to the Congress of the United States that are putting themselves in a position where they're declaring themselves wanting to end the 244-year American experiment, known as our Republican base democracy.

So that's something that I'm the most worried about, we can talk about how bad it is, but we have to look at the next decade Don, how do we break this down. And it feels weirdly like postwar Germany, where people that were part of the Nazi Party, had to be deprogramed, the Hiller youth program had to be destroyed and people had to go back to thinking about things in a more normal way. So, it's very sad to me to see those people be that manipulated.

LEMON: I don't say that -- on that. OK so listen, 74 million Americans voted for Trump in 2020. I mean, you are once a Trump supporter. You know plenty of people who still are.

SCARAMUCCI: Yup.

LEMON: Is there a way to cut through the distractions and show those people what is really going on? I know you said that people you believe in, you know, got to be deprogram and all that, but is there a way?

SCARAMUCCI: I do believe that yes. I do think that there is a way if you go back in our history, back into the 1940s, Franklin Roosevelt made a speech in the 1940 campaign related to this issue. He had Father Coughlin and Charles Lindbergh, and these American first nationalist. And what Roosevelt said is, that if we can heal the economic issues and we can give people aspirational hope for their lives, it dissipates their anger.

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Now of course we got caught up in the war a year later but ultimately that will be up to the Biden administration. If they can bring forth economic policies on infrastructure, education, jobs training, and in three to five years people are looking at their lives with greater wealth, potentially higher wages, all of that anger that you're seeing will dissipate. Those 74 million people will feel more plugged into the system. That's a protest vote, Don, for a lot of those people.

I mean, some of them are super wealthy, they are voting for tax cuts but the core people that you were just showing that were interviewed, those are people that feel left out of the system and they feel that President Trump represents anti-establishment, and a finger in your eye, a finger in my eye. People on Wall Street, etcetera. And yes, I do think we can dissipate that anger but it's going to take three to five years.

LEMON: Yes. And what I was saying, what I was thinking about it and I want to say, because you don't want to insult people, but if you say that there is some degree of deprogramming, or you know, that they are -- then they become -- you know, ugh, well, you're insulting me. It becomes, you know, sort of a personal thing when it's really not personal.

SCARAMUCCI: Or lock in harder.

LEMON: Yes, but -- and I say that because as I was -- someone sent me a clip of Fox News where one of their contributors were saying, you know, we've gone 40 some minutes in this show and no one has mentioned the people who have died today and the COVID numbers. And one of the people leading the show, one of the anchors said, that's insulting. You don't know my heart.

And I just -- I was like, the show is not about your heart. It's about the reality of what is happening. It's not about personal insult. What about the hearts of the people who died? And it was just -- it was a complete disconnect from reality. I was stunned when I saw that clip, because I thought conservatives were about facts and not feelings and it was about the other people.

I mean, listen, if you look at -- last night in the primetime on Fox, I'm not sure -- I don't think there was one mention of the record 3,124 people who are reported dead of COVID yesterday. Their focus was on the president's baseless election claims. Does that explain to you why there's this detachment? SCARAMUCCI: Yes, listen, I mean, that's some of it. It's a combination

of things. And yes, you know, I was once a Trump supporter. I went on those campaign stops. I met many of those people, and when you peel off the layers of what's going on, there's economic desperation. I grew up in a blue-collar family. My dad had a high wage as a blue- collar worker. And so, we were an aspirational working-class family.

What I saw on that campaign four years ago were desperation working class families. So, they shouldn't be called deplorable, they shouldn't be called racist, they shouldn't be called stupid -- they're plugged into something --

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: But Anthony, I got to pushback. What if those things are true, though? What if those -- because it's not --

SCARAMUCCI: But you're not going to win them over by calling them that. Maybe it is true but you're not going to win them over by calling them that. You're going to be better off winning them over by plugging them into the system and ending the racism, ending the xenophobia by getting them more educated, getting them a sense for that we're really just all the same, Don.

You're not going to win them over by calling them names. And they may very well be that. You're way better off saying, OK, I understand your issue. And oh, by the way, you're being shortsighted. Or you're not taking a well-educated (inaudible)

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: You have to coddle them?

SCARAMUCCI: I'm sorry?

LEMON: You have to coddle them?

SCARAMUCCI: No, not coddle them, no. You got to educate them, you got to open their eyes. Listen, I didn't get out of United States until I was in my mid-20s. I grew up in a sheltered home. My parents didn't have a lot of money. There wasn't a lot of travel. And once you start traveling and get yourself educated you realize that we're all the same and in a weird way it gives you a lot of comfort.

If you're living in the middle of the country and you don't have a passport. Or you're not traveling and you're getting beamed in all of these lies and all this misinformation --

LEMON: Disinformation.

SCARAMUCCI: Yes, and now you don't have a job or you have two jobs and you're struggling with your kids, all of a sudden you're like, OK, yes, Mr. Trump, stick a finger in the eye of the media, you know, take out those people for me. I love looking at your Twitter feed and all the bellicosity of your nonsense. And so, the way to end it is to provide them with hope and aspiration and opportunity. LEMON: OK. I get what you're saying but there are a lot of people like

that who don't choose to live in a fantasy land. I mean, listen, I grew up in red, red Louisiana. I lived in red, red Georgia. I lived in red, red Alabama when Georgia was red, right. I live in the Missouri. I've lived in a bunch of red states and I've known a lot of people who are both Democrats, Republicans from all different walks of life, Black, White, everyone.

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They weren't doing so great. I didn't grow up rich, but my family members did not become delusional about a savior and that they were victimized by a system. They just worked hard and did their best, and they are aspirational as you said.

SCARAMUCCI: But, Don, you didn't have a demagogue you were growing up, when I was growing up, we didn't have a demagogue ascend to the White House and we have military men, service men and women. You know, our Congress in broad population, and so they had a bigger backbone. There are military guys like Tom Cotton and Crenshaw. They may have physical courage, but they have no moral courage. They're standing there cowering before this beast of a person that's trying to destroy the democracy and destroy the system. And they're standing there cowering. So --

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: Don't you think in order to sign in -- don't you think they have to believe in this some way if they are doing that? There's got to be a part of them that believes in this that goes along with it.

SCARAMUCCI: Well, of course. You know, read about it in a war of Germany. Of course, there's a group of these people that actually believe in it. They think you and I shouldn't have a say. They weirdly, despite all of the stuff that they say about the left, they weirdly think that they're smarter and better than everybody else and the results of which they should subvert the wisdom of that large crowd.

The wisdom of the democracy, and they know better and they should take it to the Supreme Court and reverse a decision where seven -- 6.5 million to 7.5 million people voted for Vice President Biden -- you know, President-Elect Biden and Vice President-Elect Kamala Harris.

They want to subvert it, because they think they know better and they think it's their right to do that. And it's disgusting. Yes, of course. I mean, you've got 106 -- or how many people signed that thing that are in the petition?

LEMON: 106, yes.

SCARAMUCCI: OK, so, come on, there's got to be 30 or 40 of them that actually really believe it. You know, and people that subscribe to QAnon and buy in the conspiracy. So, what we have to do is you have the broad base go out there and educate those people, but also provide them with hope and opportunity. If you do that, this sort of stuff will dissipate like it has in other countries that have successfully revived their democracy.

LEMON: OK. OK. I got you. This has been a great long conversation. But I really do have to go.

SCARAMUCCI: OK.

LEMON: So, then is that your responsibility, my responsibility, or is that our elected leaders' responsibility? Is it -- and quickly if you can, because --

(CROSSTALK)

SCARAMUCCI: Quickly, it's our responsibility. It's our responsibility, Don. You know, that's why, you know, you and I need battle armor for Christmas. OK, but it's our responsibility.

(LAUGHTER)

LEMON: Well, I will be staying home, and I'll be on the Facetime or the Zoom for the holidays. And maybe I'll drive by your house and honk.

SCARAMUCCI: Me too.

LEMON: I'll just honk.

SCARAMUCCI: All right. There you go.

LEMON: Thank you, Anthony. I love having these conversations and we should do more of that, everyone

SCARAMUCCI: Thank you, sir.

LEMON: I'll see you soon. Thank you.

The FDA paving the way for Americans to get the first U.S. COVID vaccines and with another day of record hospitalizations, it can't come soon enough.

Plus, Joe Biden telling civil rights leaders this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE BIDEN (D), PRESIDENT-ELECT OF THE UNITED STATES: Where I have executive authority, I will use it to undo every single damn thing this guy's done by executive authority.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

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[23:30:00]

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LEMON: An absolutely critical development in the fight against the coronavirus. FDA advisers are recommending emergency authorization of Pfizer's vaccine, paving the way for the first doses to be delivered in a matter of days.

It's a bright spot at a time when the virus is shattering record after record. Hospitalizations are soaring past 107,000 today, the ninth consecutive day that the U.S. has remained about 100,000 hospitalizations. More than 2,600 deaths reported today after a record 3,124 deaths reported yesterday. Dr. Anthony Fauci is giving this warning tonight.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DR. ANTHONY FAUCI, DIRECTOR, NATIONAL INSTITUTE OF ALLERGY AND INFECTIOUS DISEASES: We expect that we likely will see yet again another surge upon a surge. So the months of December and January are going to be very challenging for us.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: So, joining me now is Dr. Luciana Borio. She is a member of the president-elect Biden's coronavirus advisory board. We are so happy to have you here, doctor. Thank you so much.

You know, this is some very good news, but it's coming during one of the worst periods of this pandemic. The CDC is predicting 70,000 people will die between now and the beginning of January. How quickly will the vaccine help slow this down?

LUCIANA BORIO, MEMBER, PRESIDENT-ELECT BIDEN'S COVID ADVISORY BOARD: Well, Don, I think it's important, but it's going to take time, OK? It's going take several months before we begin to see the impact of the vaccine, the trajectory of this pandemic. It's going to be slow.

But today, really, we have so much reason to celebrate. It's a remarkable, remarkable feat. We have a vaccine that is very safe in a clinical trial involving more than 40,000 people. We have a vaccine that is very effective, a really super effective in this clinical trial.

It was a gold standard clinical trial, a randomized control clinical trial. We know with confidence that this is much better than getting COVID. So, if there is a lot to celebrate today, I like to celebrate, you know, when moments like that happen in the middle of a crisis.

But, you know, there is a long road ahead of us. The supplies will be limited in the beginning and the distribution will be challenging.

LEMON: Well, let's talk about that because the hospitals are already getting supplies for the vaccine shipment that they're going to receive. Pfizer will send them out within 24 hours of full authorization, doctor.

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LEMON: What is this rollout going to look like? Please, tell us.

BORIO: Sure. So, you know, we are just now beginning to understand how this may play out, and we don't have a full picture yet. It's pretty clear that there is a patchwork of plans across states and that virtually all states are not fully prepared to undertake a massive distribution program.

The good news is that I think for the first phase, which is the idea that you vaccinate health care workers and residents among nursing homes, for example, long-term care facilities, the plans have been in place for a little while.

There has been a lot of work done by CVS, Walgreens, and drugstores like that to actually go into these facilities, nursing homes, and provide the vaccination. They have been training for this. They have been rehearsing for this. The plans are pretty baked in. So, I'm confident that this initial phase may be OK despite the limited number of doses.

But, you know, it won't be without its wrinkles. It's the first time that we've undertaken such a large vaccination program and the logistics of the cool change of vaccine has to be transported and stored at very cold temperatures provides additional challenges.

I think the bigger challenge will come afterwards when the numbers of doses become continue to increase and then we have to vaccinate a lot more people.

LEMON: Yes. Well, let's talk about that because that's going to take some time because the Pfizer vaccine, doctor, as you know, is two doses supposed to be given 21 days apart. What happens if someone misses that 21-day window? Do they start over? What happens here?

BORIO: Yes, so we don't know quite yet, but generally speaking, then there will be the second dose as soon as possible. I think, for example, in the drugstores that are involved in the program, they have this pretty well figured out, where individuals -- the plan is for individuals to be able to make an appointment.

If they fulfil the criteria for that to be vaccinated, they get their vaccine. They get a reminder when their second dose is due. If they travel to a different state, they may be able to get the second dose where they are.

But again, we can't rely only on the drugstore chains to be able to provide these vaccinations. The country is very large and there are many different types of needs. Public health has not been adequately supported to be able to plan and execute these vaccination programs. This is what we're beginning to learn.

We're going to continue to work with states to be able to find a way to support them the best we can. This is not something that this administration has really focused on. They focused a lot on the private sector distribution and much less on the public health component within states.

LEMON: Yes. Doctor, it is a pleasure having you. Thank you for educating our viewers, and we'll see you soon. Be safe. Thanks so much.

BORIO: Thank you.

LEMON: Thank you. Leaked audio from the president-elect and civil rights leaders revealing that he really thinks what he really thinks about defunding the police.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[23:40:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: OK, so, new tonight, Time magazine revealing its Person of the Year tonight, and this time two people. Guess who. There, you see it right there, president-elect Joe Biden and vice president-elect Kamala Harris.

That is as a leaked audio is out of a private virtual meeting between Biden and civil rights leaders earlier this week. In the meeting, Biden throwing cold water on progressive hopes of -- for broad executive actions and making clear why he thinks Democrats lost seats in the House and failed to take the Senate in November.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BIDEN (voice-over): I also don't think we should get too far ahead of ourselves on dealing with police reform in that, because they've already labelled us as being defund the police.

That's how they beat the living hell out of us across the country, saying that we're talking about defunding the police. We're not. We're talking about holding them accountable.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: Well, the transition responding to the leaked audio, saying in part, president-elect Biden is the same person behind closed doors that he is in public: honest, direct, and realistic about the challenges facing our nation the day he is sworn in.

So, joining me now to discuss are CNN political commentator Angela Rye and former New Orleans Mayor Mitch Landrieu. Good evening. Hello. Here we are. Angela, I told you we we'd be back at this. Angela, good to see you.

MITCH LANDRIEU, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Hi, Angela.

LEMON: I'm going to start with you, Mitch. Is Biden right about --

LANDRIEU: Sure.

LEMON: -- the defund the police message or messaging?

LANDRIEU: Well, messaging and then policy changes are two different things. I think the most important thing that I heard in that particular clip was that he wants to hold the police accountable, reimagine police departments, reform police departments, make sure that they're there to protect and serve. The term has gotten explosive. It can be misused.

But I talked to a number of people who were actually in that meeting. They are very pleased overall with the meeting. They thought the president-elect and the vice president were present. They were excited about their authenticity and their willingness to make sure that diversity, equity, and inclusion are part of everything that they do.

[23:45:00]

LANDRIEU: And of course, reforming police departments is going to be part and parcel, it has to be, of what we do in terms of reforming the criminal justice system going forward.

LEMON: Yes. So, Angela, you know, you and I have talked before about whether or not calls to defund the police hurt Democrats in elections. Again, I think this is an important conversation to have, as I have said all along here. But what is your reaction to hearing this, this audio?

ANGELA RYE, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, the first thing I would say in response to Mayor Landrieu is that the one thing he did not say in that leaked audio was reimagine policing. And I think that's unfortunate.

You know, we do need to talk about reimagining a system that from its outset was set up to return fugitive enslaved people back to their masters. And so, what that means is that it was never designed to serve a whole segment of society.

And so, if we are going to talk about reimagining policing, Mitch, just like you've done all over the country, right, you have to get to the history of the thing. You can't reform a department that was designed to protect and serve some and shoot to kill others.

And so, what we really have to do is talk about whether it's defund or some other message. Divest to reinvest, you know, any of that. We need to really have those frank conversations.

If we're very honest and clear, what we know is that Joe Biden, even during the campaign, was not a fan of defund, was not a fan of -- as we talked about before, Don, the justice and policing act. He didn't even support all that.

And so, it is fine that he has his positioning. He is clear about it. They still need to rely on data and they still need to be careful about hurting the two candidates that we have running for the Senate in Georgia, which also came up during that meeting.

LEMON: I was thinking the last after that conversation, I said, what --maybe refund the police. I don't know.

RYE: No, I think --

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: Go ahead.

LANDRIEU: Don, I think Angela is right about this. the word reimagine is a better word.

LEMON: Yes.

LANDRIEU: When I was a mayor of the city of New Orleans, we have to completely reimagine our police department. If the idea is to actually put money on the front end of investing in mental health, investing in substance abuse, investing in peer counselling, investing in violence, intubation and trauma-informed care, and not necessarily on police in prisons, everybody knows that that makes a lot of sense.

The word defund can be taken out of context. It can be used against you. It can be manipulated. And so if we're just talking about words as opposed to completely reimagine how to make communities safe and understanding the safety and security means different things to different people, then I think that we have a lot to do together.

I think we ought to lean very heavily into making sure that the criminal justice system is changed institutionally from what it is today.

LEMON: More on this and how --

RYE: (INAUDIBLE).

LEMON: Angela, can you hold that? I got to get to a break. I'm going to have you come back on the other side. But I want to talk about this, also how Joe Biden is going to get his legislation across, his agenda across, because he is going to need the help of progressives and a whole lot of people. We'll continue with Mitch Landrieu and Angela Rye right after this break. We'll be right back.

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[23:50:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: Back now with CNN political commentator Angela Rye and Mitch Landrieu. Angela, sorry, I cut you off. Go on. What were you saying?

RYE: I think it's really important, as we have these discussions, to remember we're not just talking about words, we're also talking about lives. Lives like Brandon Bernard, who of course was executed tonight. Lives like Casey Goodson, who of course was shot three times in the back in Ohio.

So, we can't be so callous or lacking in empathy when we talk about defund the police. The reason the slogan was so astonishing, so jarring is because there are people who are the mothers and the family members of victims who are saying we are trying to get your attention. And perhaps Joe Biden would have been better served if the meeting wasn't just restricted to traditional civil rights orgs, and they actually included some of the folks who have been on the front lines of this work. Tamika Mallory, Patrisse Cullors, Alicia Garza, (INAUDIBLE) Robinson.

I'm not saying that the traditional civil rights orgs are not involved, but I think, also, having a newer generation in the meeting could also help.

LEMON: I want to, Mitch, move on, and I want to talk about Joe Biden, what Joe Biden said about executive orders. Listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BIDEN (voice-over): There is a Constitution. It's our only hope. Our only hope and the way to deal with it is where I have executive authority, I will use it to undo every single damn thing this guy has done by executive authority. But I'm not going to exercise executive authority where it's a question.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: What do you think of the president-elect's position? Undo Trump's actions with his own, but when it comes to his agenda, work with Congress to get it done. Looking at how divided we are, is this wishful thinking?

LANDRIEU: I have two thoughts that are opposite. One, if you don't win the Senate seats in Georgia, it's going to be a lot harder for him to pass legislation. And if he doesn't win them, then he ought to use his executive authority as expansively as he can --

LEMON: OK.

LANDRIEU: -- and lean forward as he possibly can, always staying within the bounds of the Constitution and law. But, one of the things President Trump did demonstrate although he abused it and went way too far was that the executive authority of the president is broader and deeper than previously other presidents thought. Maybe the only way to give will get anything meaningfully done.

[23:55:00]

LEMON: I will give you a quick last word, Angela.

RYE: I agree with Mitch.

(LAUGHTER)

LEMON: Wow! Angela.

(LAUGHTER)

LANDRIEU: Thank you, Angela.

LEMON: Usually, Angela has all the words.

(LAUGHTER)

LEMON: Thank you, both. It is good to see both of you. Thank you so much. I will see you guys soon.

RYE: Thank you.

(LAUGHTER)

LEMON: Thanks for watching, everyone. Our coverage continues.

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