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Don Lemon Tonight
Electoral College Affirms Biden Win; Interview With Rep. Cedric Richmond (D-LA); Vaccine Distribution To All 50 States And Puerto Rico As U.S. Death Toll Passes 300,000; Attorney General William Barr Resigns; Is It Time To Reform The Electoral College?; Violent Clashes In Washington Result To Several Injuries And More Than 30 Arrests. Aired 11p-12a ET
Aired December 14, 2020 - 23:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[23:00:00]
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DON LEMON, CNN HOST (on camera): The President-elect Joe Biden, telling Americans tonight that the rule of law, the constitution, and the will of the people have prevailed after the Electoral College officially affirmed his victory and revealing he's heard from seven GOP Senators mostly from the senior ranks, who say they want to work with him, Biden's message coming on the same day that the Attorney General William Barr, resigns.
Barr angered President Trump by saying there is no evidence of massive fraud in last month's election despite Trump's false claims. And the death toll from COVID-19 in the United States tops 300,000 as the first vaccinations against the virus began.
So, let's discuss. President-Elect Joe Biden's address to the American people tonight. I want to bring in Congressman Cedric Richmond of Louisiana, he's a co-chair of Biden's transition and will be joining the Biden White House. Good to see you Congressman, thank you so much for joining us here.
REP. CEDRIC RICHMOND (D-LA) (on camera): Thanks for having, me Don.
LEMON: So since the election, President-Elect Biden has really tempered his remarks about President Trump. But tonight, he was forceful, he was direct. Why was it so important for him to do that tonight? This is probably the most aggressive, I'm not sure if I will call it angry, but the most aggressive we've seen him.
RICHMOND: Well I think one thing was clear tonight, President-Elect Biden wanted to make sure that the American people knew that not only Joe Biden won and Senator Harris, but that democracy won. And that with millions of people show up to vote, there were millions of people volunteer at polling places at thousands. And that is the American spirit that prevailed.
And so, yes there is a real frustration that we have 300,000 American people that have died because of COVID. And that is a real lack of leadership, but I think he wanted to make the American people clear that, going in, we are going to have a tough time of getting past this pandemic, but we have a plan and we're going to work our tails off to make sure that we protect American people.
That we try to stimulate the economy, that we do all of these things necessary so that we can build back better. And I think that tonight was the signaling of, you know, for the 10th time since the election, we won again tonight. But Electoral College spoke loud and clear and now it's time to govern?
LEMON (on camera): Speaking of loud and clear, the President-Elect spoke about the baseless Texas lawsuit that Supreme Court refused to hear. Watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOE BIDEN, 2020 PRESIDENT-ELECT OF THE UNITED STATES: This legal maneuver was an effort by elected officials and one group of states to try to get the Supreme Court to wipe out the votes of more than 20 million Americans in other states and to hand the presidency to a candidate who lose the Electoral College, lost the popular vote and lost each and every one of the states whose votes that they are trying to reverse.
It's a position so extreme that we've never seen before. A (inaudible) that refused to respect the will of the people, refused to respect the rule of law and refused to honor our constitution. Thankfully, a unanimous Supreme Court immediately and completely rejected this effort. The court sent a clear signal to President Trump, that they would be no part of an unprecedented assault on our democracy.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON (on camera): Was this also a message to Republicans?
RICHMOND: Well, I think it was. First of all, it was the vice president, President-Elect saying loud and clear that democracy has won. And that frivolous lawsuits have played out all across this country. The courts have ruled this election is over, he's the President-Elect and he's ready to govern.
And so the unfortunate part is that you still have over 126 Republicans in the House and members in the Senate. That refused to tell Donald Trump that he wears no clothes, I mean, it's that old emperor has no clothes on. And so at some point you have to tell Donald Trump the harsh reality that he didn't win. My suspicion and my disappointment is that, I think that Donald Trump clearly knows that he has lost and that he is moving on. But the Republicans that are still in Congress, and the Senate just refuse to stand up and --
[23:05:13]
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: Congressman he knows, if you saw that -- did you see that interview this weekend? It was obvious he knew from that interviews. Obvious that he was spinning. It's obvious that he was just throwing things out. I mean, anybody with half a brain could see that. He knows he lost. You're right, he knows.
RICHMOND: I believe he does, the problem is nobody will say it to him. And so, it just creates this charade. And the problem is, the reason why America is the shining hope of democracy around the world, is because we have a peaceful transition of power and that we always put the people first and that is just not happening right now.
LEMON: Yes, I've go to ask you this, because you know, in the first day we saw Americans getting the vaccine. There is a lot of talk about when the President-Elect Biden will get the vaccine, he's 78, he is the President-Elect, when will he do it, do you know?
RICHMOND: I don't know when he's going to do it, but I'll just tell you this. We've lost over 300,000 Americans to this pandemic. This is a war, and President-Elect Biden and Vice President-Elect Kamala Harris, will be the two most important people in this world. And we should not let any war, get to them. And we certainly need to protect them, but that's a decision for them to make.
Look, there are sensitivities around it. Do we want to skip the line of our frontline workers that are sacrificing and doing it? You know, it's a real balancing test. And so I can't speak for either one of them, but I can just say this, we value our frontline workers who need the vaccine.
But for me personally, as a member of the House and somebody who has watched this constitution, get ravished for last four years. We also need a good man, Joe Biden, and a good woman Senator Harris, to lead this world in the manner which they should. And I would love to protect them, so, it's a balancing act and we need to make sure that we get it right.
LEMON: Well, I also was speaking to, a doctor who got it today and he told me, there are needed to be more examples of people who are getting it, older people, a little he mentioned an African Americans, especially minorities. The Vice President-Elect a black woman, the President-Elect an older man, people who are in those categories, two of those categories right? People who are a little bit suspicious of the vaccine, and the older group of people who should get.
I don't see anyone who would not want both of them to get it. Since they will be leading the free world, I just think it's you know, it's incumbent upon them to get it and set an example, that's my thoughts. But thank you so much Congressman, I'll see you soon. I appreciate it.
RICHMOND: Thanks for having me, Don.
LEMON: Thank you, thank you.
And also remember the President-Elect said he would roll up he's sleeves and get it as an example to show people that it is safe. So, I think people will be helped up by seeing that if he indeed does that.
So, I want to bring in now CNN's Senior Political Analyst, John Avlon and Anthony Scaramucci, the former communications Director in the Trump White House. Good evening to both, would you think I'm wrong about what I just
said? Either of you?
JOHN AVLON, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST (on camera): No.
LEMON: No.
ANTHONY SCARAMUCCI, FORMER WHITE HOUSE DIRECTOR OF COMMUNICATIONS, FOUNDER/ MANAGING PARTNER, SKY BRIDGE CAPITAL (on camera): No.
AVLON: He should leave.
LEMON: Yes he should leave. So, good evening gentlemen, so John, the -- channel the founding fathers for me if you will, for all of us. If they had been alive to see what's happened for the last six weeks, and then what happened today, what do you think?
AVLON: They bring a sigh of relief, but they would hate to see our country turn against itself over such baseless claims, this kind of deranged fever dream that has occupied one political party. Remember the constitution doesn't mention political parties. And they were worried primarily about the forces of faction, or what we would call hyper partisanship.
People who claim there were more patriotic than anybody else, to try to divide the country and therefore weaken its resolved. That's what we've seen, and assault on our democracy, exactly of the kind they feared. From a demagogue president and people who are following him, into a land of unreality.
But the system worked, the system held and you know, while we can condemn those 126 members of the autocrat caucus who backed the Texas -- A.G.'s baseless case. We should praise the 70 Republicans who refused to sign it. Because those folks, are going to be the kind of people who we need to build bridges with to reunite as a nation.
LEMON: Anthony, Jim Acosta is reporting that President Trump is now looking to January 6th, when the Electoral College votes are tallied on the House floor. I mean, members can challenge the results, the idea that Trump is still looking for ways to overturn the election, I mean, it is -- it's just pathetic?
SCARAMUCCI: Well, he had one of his people talking about having a different slate of electors present to the House of Representatives as well. So, I mean, it's not only pathetic, but its borderline seditious have not seditious.
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I just want to add something to what John is saying. You know, I think the founding fathers and women that help start the country would be relieved in one sense that it held. But I think they would also want us to figure out how we are going to debunk the nonsense that this demagogue is presenting, to 74 million people. You know, you've got 77 percent of those people actually believing him, Don. And so, we have to work on that because I think that's going to be a big problems for us over the next year.
LEMON: It is, and it's surprising that -- people who -- the misinformation for people who have fallen subject or victim to misinformation is just really, really unbelievable. So, John, I want to ask you about Senator Lindsey Graham, he said that he had a pleasant conversation today with the President-Elect Joe Biden, but he also told Manu Raju Trump still has a very narrow path. Graham knows there is no path?
AVLON: Come on, I mean, you know, Lindsey, look, this is the same guy who said that Joe Biden was one of the best man God ever put on this green earth four years ago. And now, --
LEMON: We forget, with tears.
AVLON: Yes, with tears in his eyes which by the way I believe was sincere, and he has spent the last three years sucking up to Donald Trump. And you know, look, go be a senator. Stop trying to play up to a demagogue who was lost an election.
This Hail Mary that they are hoping for were the Republican senator will sign on to a House complete on January 6 to try to increase chaos and division is beneath anyone who has a hope of being considered a statesman in the eyes of history. Grow up, stand up, work together across the aisle where you can agree. Disagree honorably where you can't but stop feeding the crazy's in our country, for God sakes.
LEMON: And most people say that one won't even work.
AVLON: Oh?
LEMON: OK. Anthony, President Trump could have taken some credit for getting this vaccine expedited. Instead of talking about that, he's talking about fake election fraud, I mean, he cannot get out of his own way as seriously.
You know, I've watched the interview with him and I said, my God, this is -- it was so pathetic. Like for a moment I said I almost felt -- and then I went no, no I feel sorry for. He's pathetic loser, he is a sore loser. He can't get out of his own way, what the hell?
SCARAMUCCI: Well, you know, I think, you know underneath all of those layers of bluster and compensation and mendacity I think he's a very sad person. I think he's looking at the entire catastrophe that unfolded over the last year, and it's dawning on him that he didn't have the skill set.
He's almost the modern-day Lyndon Banes Johnson, where this was his quagmire, his personality in the tools that he brought to the job just weren't -- he wasn't able to adapt or overcome the crisis before him. And I think you are seeing that cascading effect right now and ultimately over the next 30 days we will see more depression from him.
AVLON: Don't do that to LBJ.
(LAUGHTER) I mean, you know this was a guy who is master of the senate pass
(inaudible) legislation voting rights legislation, I appreciate the point making about the final year. But I mean --
(CROSSTALK)
SCARAMUCCI: It's a very accurate comparison. No, no it's a very -- read (inaudible) books, it's a very (inaudible) the self-loathing involved here, and then the double dig down. Remember LBJ always thought that the Kennedy brothers didn't waffle on the human missile crisis. And then it was found out later on, that they had traded the Turk -- the missiles in Turkey for the missiles in Cuba. And so he was doubling and tripling down, that's exactly what the president did here. It was more mendacious than LBJ, but he was definitely in that same category.
AVLON: Yes, look, the only categories he's going to be in, is making Nixon look great again. I mean, he's going to be in a category of his own. History notes.
LEMON: All right you guys. All right you presidential history nerds, I was going to say geeks. Love you both though, thank you, guys. I will see you soon.
AVLON: Take care, man.
LEMON (on camera): Vaccines have arrived in all 50 states in Puerto Rico tonight, but how is the process organized? And when will it be your turn? The good news on vaccines, coming on the same day the death toll in this country passes 300,000 and the President-Elect says this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BIDEN: My heart goes out to each of you, in this dark winter of the pandemic. I'm about to spend the holidays and the new year, with a black hole in your hearts, without the ones you love at our side.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
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[23:15:00]
LEMON: Well less than a year after the coronavirus pandemic unleashed it's devastation of the United States, the first doses of the FDA authorized vaccine have been delivered to all 50 states. Vaccinations are underway. But it's happening on the same day that the COVID-19 death toll in the U.S. tops 300,000. Here's CNN's Sara Sidner.
SARA SIDNER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (on camera): Don, it should be lost on no one that one of the first people in the United States to get the Pfizer vaccine for COVID-19 was a nurse. Someone who has been battling this disease on the front lines for many, many months. She is also a black woman.
And that is significant for a couple of reasons, one to show she trusts the science, which is important because of the history of involuntary experiments on black folks in this country. And two with the black community has been hit very, very hard and disproportionately by this virus.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
SIDNER (voice over): This moment could not come soon enough. ICU nurse Sandra Lindsey is one of the first people in the United States to get the COVID-19 vaccine outside of the clinical trial. So was emergency medicine Dr. Eve (inaudible).
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UNKNOWN: I felt great. It didn't felt any different (inaudible) any other vaccinate that I have receive in the past.
SIDNER: Today workers loaded boxes of Pfizer and BioNTech vaccine onto trucks by forklift are shipping to medical facilities and hospitals around the country. A historic day that arrived in record time. CNN was there the moment University of Michigan medical center staff got the vaccine. A box filled with dry ice in 390 vials, each file has five doses inside.
Once thought and mixed with saline, it was administered to health care workers who have exhausted themselves taking care of coronavirus patients while putting themselves in danger.
MARK SCHLISSEL, PRESIDENT, UNIVERSITY OF MICHIGAN: The really important thing is that we can now see the horizon. We can see how this is going to end.
SIDNER: For Michigan medicine, to Tampa General Hospital in Florida, something to cheer about finally.
(APPLAUSE)
After a year of devastating loss, more than 300,000 COVID deaths in America. To medical staff at Ohio State University.
UNKNOWN: Three, two, one vaccinate.
UNKNOWN: It's momentous. I feel honored to receive it. Humbled to receive it. It's really a wonderful day.
SIDNER: The complex task of figuring out how to store and ship the vaccine has been underway for months. The vaccine needs to be kept at ultra-cold temperatures. UPS and FedEx are helping to deliver the vaccine nationwide using a complex package designed by Pfizer called a thermal shipper. Now after so many months of uncertainty, there is renewed hope this vaccine can start us down what's to be a long road to recovery.
LENA NAPOLITANO, DIRECTOR OF SURGICAL INTENSIVE CARE, UNIVERSITY OF MICHIGAN: We are exposed to it every minute of every day, so I can tell you how much this means to me. I feel like I won a million dollar lottery getting this vaccine. (END VIDEOTAPE)
SIDNER (on camera): And you could hear it in Dr. Napolitano's voice, Don, she was filled with gratitude, filled with hope, after seeing so many patients, some of whom she save, helped save in some who didn't make it. She has seen the worst of this disease and this gave her a little hope, a little light and just a little bit of joy. Don?
LEMON: Sarah, thank you so much. I appreciate that. Joining me now is CNN medical analyst Dr. Jonathan Reiner. Dr. Reiner, thank you so much for joining. What's your reaction tonight? We have got the pictures of medical workers giving and receiving vaccinations. Yet we also crossed 300,000 deaths in this country.
JONATHAN REINER, CNN MEDICAL ANALYST (on camera): Yes, in a very dark time, it's a big burst of light. A day filled with hope. Really reinforced my belief in medicine and science and innovation and democracy. A really good day in a dark time. And we're going to have dark times, bad days for the next several months but now we see how we can climb out of it. And we will pull together and will do that. So, yes, I was filled with hope today.
LEMON: Health care workers and residents of long term care facilities will be receiving the first doses. Give me a realistic timeline for the groups of people who come next.
REINER: Yeah, so we still don't have enough doses for all of the sort of (inaudible) group of health care workers, nursing home workers, and nursing home residents. I expect that those groups of, like 20 to 40 million people will be vaccinated into January, and then we will start to open up to other high-risk groups. Particularly the elderly, other people with comorbid conditions, you know from the later part of January in to February.
And then I think come March, hopefully and particularly if the AstraZeneca vaccine and also hopefully the Johnson & Johnson vaccine come online at the end of January, we'll have even a larger vaccine supply, that March can be a big month, perhaps a kind of month where you can just go to Walgreens or CBS on your home from working get vaccinated. So I expect the springtime is going to be a huge time for vaccinating in this country.
LEMON: OK, so, you expect. So how is this going to be organized? How will people find out if it is their turn? Where to go? Will it be free? Is there a system in the works for all of this? I do have to say that I got a notice doctor from the folks who run my health care, right, from a hospital that's over in charge of the doctor who sees me.
My personal doctor, who said the vaccines are out. Don't call your local doctor, we will let you know when it's available. So how is this all going to work?
REINER: It's going to be different in different places and for different people. I'll tell you that the vaccines are free. They are free if you have commercial insurance, they're free if you have Medicare or Medicaid and they are free if you have no insurance.
[23:25:14]
There is a provision in the CARES act that provides about $175 billion to vaccinate the uninsured. So it's free for everybody.
LEMON: Here's what it says. It says, I won't say who it is but it says, we have received the first supply of COVID vaccine and our vaccinating frontline employees. Please hold off on calling your doctor to schedule a vaccination at this time. We will message you as soon as the vaccine is available to patients. More information at blah, blah. I wonder from -- a bunch of people got that today I'm not sure but go on, sorry to interrupt.
REINER: Yes. So, it's going to be free of charge and I think as each of this, you know, we work through the algorithms to go from the highest risk down towards the lower risk, you know, the various providers and insurance companies will start to disseminate where you go to get this. But it is going to be a monumental effort. We have never vaccinated 300 million people in a given year.
And we are going to have to give for most of the vaccines, not for all of them, but for most of the vaccines, it will require two shots. So we're really looking at vaccinating perhaps, doing this 500 million times, half a billion times or more over the next several months. It's a monumental effort.
LEMON: And it's going to take time and we still have to be safe and follow all the safety guidelines and precautions. Doctor thank you, good to see again.
REINER: My pleasure, Don,
LEMON: The Attorney General William Barr resigning his post weeks after breaking with president over bogus election fraud claims. And you got to hear what he wrote to the president on the way out.
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[23:30:00]
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LEMON: So President Trump announcing this evening that the attorney general, Bill Barr, will be stepping down from his post. The announcement coming just moments after president-elect Biden officially clinched the Electoral College, which was probably just a coincidence, right?
Despite the president's recently calling -- the president recently calling his AG a big disappointment, Barr only had good things to say about the president in his resignation letter, writing, and I quote -- "I am proud to have played a role in the many successes and unprecedented achievements you have delivered for the American people." If the fawning praise in the letter wasn't enough, Barr also continuing to give oxygen to the president's baseless voter fraud allegations before announcing that he would be leaving his post on December 23rd.
Joining me now to discuss is CNN senior law enforcement analyst Andrew McCabe, the former deputy director of the FBI. Good to see you, sir. Thanks for joining.
So, Barr was maybe the chief enabler for this president. His letter announcing his resignation is full of nothing but praise for President Trump. Is this letter Barr's tenure as A.G. in a nutshell?
ANDREW MCCABE, CNN SENIOR LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST, FORMER DEPUTY DIRECTOR OF FBI: I think it is, Don. I think it is for a few reasons. It is because it is replete with misrepresentations and all-out lies.
You know, I love the way he refers to Trump's inaugural speech as some effort to reach out to your opponents. We all remember that speech, the infamous American carnage speech. That was not a reach out to anyone. And it goes on to repeat the -- you know, to criticize our investigation of the Russian attack on our democracy in 2016 as baseless, which of course it was not.
But I think the thing that amazes me most, Don, is the second to last sentence is the only one in this letter that rings true. He says, I will spend the next week wrapping up a few remaining matters important to the administration.
Notably, he doesn't say I'll spend the next week doing justice for the American people, ensuring that critical prosecutions and investigations are followed through on in the way they should. No, not that. He says, I will spend the time doing things that are important to you, Mr. President. And that is fitting because that's what he did for his entire tenure as attorney general.
LEMON: Why do you think he's leaving now? I mean, considering that the relationship that they had and how much water he carried for this president, I'm surprised that -- I shouldn't be surprised that he was actually, you know, was, I think, forced out. Why do you think he's leaving now, though?
MCCABE: I would suspect that he sees the writing on the wall as we all do. He knows that were he not to leave himself, he would be pushed over the cliff by the president in some sort of impetuous tweet, you know, at 7:00 o'clock in the morning or something like that.
So I do think that this was an effort on his part to make it look as if he's leaving on his own terms. But we all know that's not the case. The president is disgusted with him because he didn't go far enough in trying to rig the election for him with ridiculous claims of voter fraud and the like. So, I think he knew that this time would come and he tried to, you know, he tried to stage it in a way that looked like it was his own decision.
LEMON: I have got to ask you because -- look, you're one of the people who have been targeted by this administration and this Justice Department. You still have a lawsuit against Bill Barr that is ongoing. Is this personal for you?
MCCABE: No, it's not personal for me with respect to Mr. Barr. You know, I have a lawsuit that is challenging the unlawful and inappropriate and politically-motivated way that I was terminated. That was, of course, before Mr. Barr ever showed up. So, really it has nothing to do with that for me.
[23:34:59]
MCCABE: For me, it is more I feel terrible for the way that this attorney general has defaced the Department of Justice and the FBI. I think that he's done far more damage than good. I think that the men and women who work every day in the Department of Justice and the FBI deserve an attorney general who trusts them, who supports their work, and who would defend them in the face of political attacks from the president or anybody else. William Barr is not that guy.
LEMON: It is always a pleasure to have you on. I appreciate your candor and your expertise. Thank you very much, Andy McCabe.
MCCABE: Thanks, Don.
LEMON: The Electoral College confirming president-elect Biden's win, but is it time to reform a system that doesn't always line up with the popular vote? One former presidential candidate says yes.
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[23:40:00]
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LEMON: So it is over, again. The Electoral College voting today and confirming what we have known for over a month, that Joe Biden will be the 46th president of the United States. But one of the 538 electors today arguing we shouldn't even have an Electoral College.
Hillary Clinton tweeting -- quote -- "I believe we should abolish the Electoral College and select our president by the winner of the popular vote, same as every other office. But while it still exists, I was proud to cast my vote in New York for Joe Biden and Kamala Harris." That is quote for her.
So, joining me now to discuss is Jesse Wegman. He is a member of The New York Times editorial board and the author of "Let the People Pick the President: The Case for Abolishing the Electoral College." And also joining me now is Steve Vladeck. He is professor of law at the University of Texas School of Law. Good to see both of you. Thank you very much. This is going to be an interesting conversation.
So Jesse, of course, Hillary Clinton, you know, would be president right now if not for the Electoral College, but you say there are a lot of reasons to scrap it, and starting with the basic fairness, everybody's vote should count equally.
JESSE WEGMAN, AUTHOR, MEMBER OF THE NEW YORK TIMES EDITORIAL BOARD: I mean, I think that's really what hits home for all Americans, no matter their political ideology. It's just the bigger number beats the smaller number, you know. That's how it is in most other areas of our life. I think Donald Trump made it clear that he believes that.
Back in 2012, when he thought Mitt Romney was going to win the popular vote and lose the Electoral College, he tweeted the Electoral College is a disaster for democracy.
So this isn't like, you know, liberal sour grapes. This is basic American belief in majority rule. I think, you know, Donald Trump will argue that had the rules been different in 2016, he would have beaten Hillary Clinton in the popular vote, too. I say, you know, let him make that argument but at least let us have the fight on those grounds.
LEMON: President-elect Biden called what Trump and his Republican allies are doing an unprecedented assault on our democracy. Could all these plots have played out if we didn't have the Electoral College, Jesse?
WEGMAN: No, I don't think so. I mean, I think, you know, what you see happening here is really the effect more than anything of the statewide winner take all rule, right? That is the -- he has targeted those states where the vote was very close because just a shift of a few thousand votes here or there could swing all of those states electors from one camp to the other.
You know, we've been talking -- we've been hearing all day about, you know, there is a hallmark of democracy, the Electoral College, but it's not. This is not what the founders planned at all. They didn't like winner take all. They didn't even talk about it at the convention. When they saw it being used by states in the early years, they freaked out. They said this is a disaster. But we stuck with it ever since.
And so I just think that the way the Electoral College runs today is not at all the system that the founders designed. We need to stop talking about it like that.
LEMON: So Steve, on some level, though, did watching the process unfold live today proved the election's legitimacy? We saw regular people, dedicated election workers doing their jobs and the democracy held.
STEVE VLADECK, PROFESSOR OF LAW, UNIVERSITY OF TEXAS SCHOOL OF LAW: Yeah, it proved that is legitimacy to the folks who already thought it was legitimate. But, you know, look at these sham electors, you know, who are being reportedly appointed in six or seven different states, Don, where, you know, you've got these folks saying, look, we were appointed. By whom? It doesn't matter.
So, you know, I think what we saw today was actually some of the worst remnants of the Electoral College, that it is right for this kind of propagandized abuse by those who don't actually care about the merits like Jesse.
But I think there is also a different point here, which is the Electoral College is reflected in a number of broader inequities in our politics. One of things that baked into the Electoral College is the size of the House of Representatives. It is at 435 seats today, Don.
That number hasn't changed since 1911, when this country was about one-fourth the size it is now. So, this has the effect of skewing the Electoral College towards smaller states, where votes matter more in smaller states than big ones.
So, you know, even for folks who aren't necessarily as convinced as Jesse that the next step is to abolish the Electoral College altogether, there is certainly are some common center forms (ph) that wouldn't require a constitutional amendment or the national popular vote contact (ph) to make the Electoral College a lot more equitable.
LEMON: He invoked your name twice, Jesse. Do you want to respond?
WEGMAN: I'm completely in agreement with Steve on this. It would be a great reform.
[23:45:00]
WEGMAN: It only takes federal law changing. You don't need to change the Constitution. As he said, it has been 435 members for more than 100 years now and there is no good reason for that. It's really just politics. So, you know, you expand the House and you get a more representative -- House of Representatives.
LEMON: Yeah. Listen, Jesse, Trump has failed in the courts, failed to offset the Electoral College result, failed to corrupt state legislatures, but he did get 126 Republicans and 17 attorneys general to sign on to that bogus Texas lawsuit. Was the Electoral College actually a stopgap in this case?
WEGMAN: I mean, sure, I guess technically it was. And I do think we owe some thanks to Republican lawmakers at the state level and Republican officeholders who did hold the line, as you say.
But, you know, yes, the national Republicans did not acquit themselves well in this. And I do think, you know, I think the Electoral College cuts both ways here because I think, yes, it was the Electoral College that ends up giving Joe Biden the official presidency, but at the same time, none of these shenanigans would have been possible if we didn't run our elections this way, if we just had a direct vote for president.
LEMON: Steve, CNN is reporting tonight that Trump is looking towards January 6th, when Congress is set to certify the Electoral College votes. His allies may disrupt the vote. Are they just creating more damage to Americans' faith in democracy and in our electoral system and really president-elect Joe Biden?
VLADECK: Yeah, you know, it is (INAUDIBLE) at this point because, you know, the writing is on the wall. The Trump campaign has had literally dozens of opportunities to prove their claims of fraud or misconduct in court. They've failed just about every single time.
And so I think the question is, what is gained at this point from dragging out this process any further? We've already heard today from a couple of Republican senators that they're not going to vote to sustain any challenges to Biden electors. That means the matter is just not going anywhere on January 6th.
So, are we really going to see Republicans nevertheless drag this out, perhaps require Congress to spend the better part of three or four days counting electoral votes where everyone knows how this is going to end or are we going to see a bit of a shift in the next couple of days with the Electoral College result finally created the space where the Republican Party finally says enough is enough, it is time to move on?
LEMON: Steve, quick answer, do you think we'll ever see the Electoral College -- we'll get rid of the Electoral College? Do you ever see or think that it will come?
VLADECK: Not completely, but I do think we'll see reforms.
LEMON: All right. Thank you, gentlemen. I appreciate it.
Violence erupting in Washington, D.C. this weekend as protesters like the Proud Boys clashed with counter-protesters, fighting over an election that is already over.
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LEMON: Violence breaking out in the streets of our nation's capital this week, and clashes between people who are supporting the election results and angry pro-Trump protestors trying to overturn them.
Well, police reports several people were stabbed and more than 30 were arrested, members of the right-wing group. The Proud Boys were among the protestors.
I want to bring in now CNN's Donie O'Sullivan. Donie, it is good to see you. You always have very illuminating report. I thank you for joining us tonight.
The video from this rally is really terrible to see. What caused this to get so violent so quickly, Donie?
DONIE O'SULLIVAN, CNN REPORTER: Yeah, Don. I mean, I guess the president would describe the folks who showed up on Saturday as very fine people in his eyes.
You know, there were peaceful demonstrations earlier in the day where believers of QAnon showed up, the recently-pardoned General Mike Flynn, the conspiracy theorist Alex Jones, and of course, the hate group, the Proud Boys, whose some members you see in some of the videos here. That is the group, if you will remember, in the first debate that the president told them to stand back and stand by.
Obviously, things got violent on Saturday night. Four people stabbed and more than 30 people arrested. Don?
LEMON: There were altercations involving the Proud Boys, as we mentioned here. That's what we're looking at now. They are fighting for an election that is actually, Donie, it's over. But are these folks accepting that reality? They don't appear to be.
O'SULLIVAN: No. And one thing also to mention here is that the signs outside black churches, two black churches in Washington, Black lives matter signs were torn down and set on fire, as well.
And you know, Don, I guess under a normal presidency, even at the start of the Trump presidency, you know, folks might ask or expect the president to disavow, you know, what you're seeing there, to say to condemn these groups.
But I think we're so far beyond that, of course, at this point with this president. But it is important to remember that, as Trump wants to continue his election lie into 2021 and beyond, these are the sort of people who are going to be out there supporting him.
LEMON: Yeah. And listen, he and his allies continue their efforts, Donie, to overturn this election. Battleground states have to ramp up security to safeguard their electors today. We have been reporting on that, all this misinformation and violent rhetoric.
You can see it there played out in the video. And also, what happened at statehouses today, it has real-life consequences.
O'SULLIVAN: Absolutely. And I mean, look, a lot of the people who are pushing this, some might even say the president himself, are profiting off it. It's a grift at this point, the whole stop, the steal movement.
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O'SULLIVAN: (INAUDIBLE) says the president is fundraising off but you can be sure conspiracy theorists are making money off it, too. There are people -- there are Trump supporters I speak to, who genuinely believe that Trump didn't lose the election.
And as you can see, you know, all it takes is one or two people amid all this violent rhetoric to go and do something terrible. Whereas, you know, other folks might know that a lot of this is a con. A lot of folks are taking this very seriously, as well.
LEMON: Thank you, Donie.
O'SULLIVAN: Thanks, Don.
LEMON: Thank you. It's a con, people. Joe Biden will be the president on January 20th. Thanks for watching. Our coverage continues.
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