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Don Lemon Tonight

President-Elect Joe Biden Gets First Dose Of Vaccine; Rep. James Clyburn (D-SC) Is Interviewed About The COVID Relief And The Subpoena To HHS And CDC Heads; Coronavirus Mutates And Much More Transmissible; President Trump Fights Up To The Last Minute; GOP Allies Plotting Tactics To Overturn Election Results; Trump Allies Pushing Martial Law? Aired 10-11p ET

Aired December 21, 2020 - 22:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[22:00:00]

CHRIS CUOMO, CNN HOST (on camera): You are keeping hope alive for people in this country that there is still good people. There are still people who do good --

(CROSSTALK)

TONY ALDAPA, EMT WHO GAVE CPR TO PASSENGER WITH COVID-19 SYMPTOMS ON FLIGHT: Thank you, sir.

CUOMO: -- things just because Don appreciate it. I appreciate it. You live it. You've given your service to this country. You're doing it now. It might have made you sick. You just keep going, because it's the right thing and God bless you for that.

Thank you for letting us know that there is virtue, that there are good people in this world. Thank you for reminding us the best for Christmas, you are a present that I couldn't even dreamed to having. Thank you for being a gift to the rest of us.

ALDAPA: Thank you.

CUOMO: God bless, you and the family.

ALDAPA: Thank you, sir.

CUOMO: Tony, be well.

ALDAPA: You as well. Merry Christmas.

CUOMO: I took Don's time. Let's get to him right now. But I don't care, because it was worth it. Don Lemon is not here. You have what we call the upgrade, Laura Coates on "CNN TONIGHT" right now.

Good to see you. Big shot, serious radio show, and now here you are. That guy doesn't even think twice about what he did. It may have made him sick. He'd do it again. He's going to work.

LAURA COATES, CNN HOST: I mean, Chris, the idea, I mean, heroes go on autopilot, when the rest of us run. They go on autopilot and just say I'm here, I'm going to fix this, I can help, I'm in the position to do so and they do. And it really is astounding. A lot of people would look at that and walk away, and say, you know it, they risk. They don't want to have the risk. They don't want to get themselves sick. And he didn't even think about that.

He thought, well, someone needs help, and I can help him, and did it. And that is such a hero to me. I can't believe it. It makes you feel like, in a time when half the time you can never -- well, 90 percent of the time, you don't see people's eyes. You don't their mouths, you don't get to see their noses. The whole face is not there. But he, he saw a human being in spite of it, and just took, you know, did what he could. It's beautiful.

CUOMO: That's a beautiful observation. I just wish I had made it. Laura Coates, I will be watching you as always.

COATES: I'll write your next show. Have a good one.

CUOMO: Done. That's what I want for Christmas.

COATES: No, wait, I take it back. Never mind. Never mind.

This is CNN TONIGHT. I'm Laura Coates in for Don Lemon, not Chris. Not Chris.

Breaking news tonight, we got growing concern among senior advisers inside the White House about what President Trump may do in his increasingly erratic attempts to overturn the results of the election.

There are now what, 30 days left in his presidency. And one White House official is quoted as saying no one is sure where this is heading. There are even been discussions inside the White House about invoking martial law to throw out the results.

Trump has mostly abandoned his role of running the government, focusing instead on futile attempts to stay in power past January 20th, when Joe Biden is inaugurated. Trump is spending his time meeting with a fringe group of advisers, including lawyer Sidney Powell, a conspiracy theorist who was removed from his campaign legal team only three weeks ago.

Trump wants her to work as a special counsel to investigate his false claims of voter fraud including checking voting machines for flaws despite a lack of any evidence.

Attorney General William Barr breaking with Trump, and leaving his job in two days, pushing back against the president today, saying there is no need for a special counsel.

More on all of these developments just ahead.

And also, tonight, as the U.S. now records more than 18 million cases of COVID-19, growing concerns about a variant of the virus discovered in the United Kingdom. The administration now considering requiring travelers from the U.K. to show proof of a negative COVID test before entering the U.S. Tonight, New York Governor Andrew Cuomo, highly critical of the Trump

administration's lack of action, and moving to protect the people of his own state from the spread of the new variant.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GOV. ANDREW CUOMO (D-NY): You have 120 countries that have required that no one comes from the U.K. unless they test negative prior to getting on the plane from the U.K. And the United States has done nothing.

Now, I acted proactively, frankly, for New York and I have the airlines that are flying into New York from the U.K. that have all agreed that they will test people before they get on the flight in the U.K. en route to New York.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COATES (on camera): President-elect Joe Biden getting the first dose of Pfizer's COVID vaccine and live on television. Telling Americans there's nothing to worry about and encouraging everyone to get the vaccine when it becomes available to them.

Also, tonight, Congress finally voting on the $900 billion COVID-19 stimulus package. Which will give desperately needed relief to millions of Americans hurt by this raging pandemic, and the damage it is inflicted upon the economy.

[22:05:07]

I want to bring in CNN White House Correspondent, Jeremy Diamond, and senior congressional correspondent Manu Raju, two of the hardest working men out there.

I'll start with you, Jeremy, right now. Because President Trump is now turning to a, well, a fringe group of advisers for help in trying to overturn the election. So, who is he meeting with now, and what is he willing to do to maintain power?

JEREMY DIAMOND, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Laura, this is a pattern that we've seen from President Trump before. Which is, when some of his advisers say, no, you can't do something, or this won't work he tries to find somebody who tells him that it will work, and that he can do it.

And in this case, the president is increasingly turning to this fringe group of advisers including Sidney Powell, that conspiracy theorist who suggested that the CIA and the late Venezuelan leader Hugo Chavez were somehow involved in rigging the 2020 election, the disgrace former national security adviser Michael Flynn, and even - even Steve Bannon now, the former White House chief strategist who was indicted last summer on several charges of fraud and money laundering.

So, the president now, because of the advice he's getting from those folks is considering a range of things, including what Michael Flynn talked about in terms of imposing martial law to re-run the election in key battleground states, appointing Sidney Powell perhaps as a special counsel to investigate voter fraud, and seizing these voting machines, which is another thing that the president is considering.

And yet we heard, even some of the president's most loyal advisers including the Attorney General Bill Barr now pushing back on some of these suggestions from the president. We heard Barr today push back on that notion of seizing voting machines saying he doesn't see a need for that at all.

But again, this is just clear that the president's single-minded focus right now is trying to overturn this election. And we are no longer at the point where the president is talking about this as a way of working through the emotions of losing an election. He is trying to overturn this election. There's little to no chance that he's going to actually be able to accomplish that. But that is what we are seeing from the President of the United States 30 days out from an inauguration.

COATES: I mean, you have a Motley Crue (Ph), you've got a Johnny come lately of epiphany. It's about how this is not really the train you want to ride on with William Barr. And now, I mean, it's not as if, Manu, you've got other things to worry about, Mr. president. I mean, it's not just like there's a stimulus crisis or an economic crisis or anything else happening or a pandemic. I mean the singular focus is so disturbing.

And you've got some reporting about how these conservative Congress members who went to the White House today, and what they might be planning. What's going on, Manu?

MANU RAJU, CNN SENIOR CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes. A number of House conservatives, some of the most conservative members, staunch Trump defenders like Congressman Mo Brooks of Alabama, Congressman Jim Jordan of Ohio, Louie Gohmert of Texas, and Paul Gosar of Arizona among several others, like Jody Hice of Georgia all met with the president and Vice President Mike Pence along with Rudy Giuliani in a separate meeting to discuss these efforts to try to overturn the election which have no chance of succeeding.

But what they are talking about doing is on January 6th when the joint session of Congress meets to actually count the votes to object to it each state -- efforts to count those votes, and if one senator were to join the Republican efforts in the House then it would lead to two hours of debate in the Senate side and the House side, and there would be a vote in this chamber to determine whether or not to uphold that objection. Now that is not going to succeed.

In fact, I just talk to the Senate majority whip John Thune the number two Republican in the Senate, he told me those efforts would go down like a, quote, "shot dog." So, Republican leadership in the Senate side y don't want to do this because it essentially puts them in a difficult spot. Choosing between the president or choosing between the will of voters.

But nevertheless, these conservative members are pressing ahead. The president is trying to do whatever he can to undermine faith in the elections. And he's got some willing partners. And at the very least, they can prolong debate on the House floor on January 6th. But potentially even taking it into January 7th in the last hours and hours and hours, but they are unlikely to succeed, almost certainly will not succeed as Joe Biden is going to be president on January 20th, Laura.

COATES: And offer what, I mean, I am shocked that these members had the time to go ahead in going to the White House today when you've got this badly needed stimulus bill that needed to be passed and the House actually passed it. And now it's going to head the Senate.

So, what's in this bill which apparently all members of Congress could have time to, I guess finally can detour to the White House and engage in exercise futility but what's in this particular stimulus bill that apparently did not caused them to focus?

RAJU: Well, it's a massive bill. Fifty-five hundred pages was just unveiled this afternoon and the House overwhelmingly passed tonight on a big bipartisan vote in that chamber. The Senate is expected to vote on it in just before midnight, that's actually when the government is slated to shut down if they don't at least get this continuing resolution pass to keep the government open.

[22:09:54]

But this massive proposal includes $900 billion n COVID relief, $600 in a one-time direct payment for people who make less than $75,000 a year. That includes $600 per child or individual in that family, so family of four could get $2,400, in addition to that, $300 a week for jobless benefits.

Those are set to expire within days but people can start to take advantage of that come December 27th. And then there are more than $280 billion in small business loans, more than $80 billion for schools, tens of billions of dollars for vaccines purchases and distribution.

So, this, Laura, aids virtually all sectors of the economy in one way or the other, a significant achievement after months of gridlock, partisan stalemate. Finally, a deal is reached. But it's going to take a little bit of time to get it all the paper work over to the president's desk, have him to sign it and eventually see relief for the American public.

COATES: Many Raju, Jeremy Diamond, thank you so much.

I'm joined now by Democratic Congressman James Clyburn of South Carolina. As you, know he's the House majority whip. Good evening, Congressman Clyburn, how are you?

REP. JAMES CLYBURN (D-SC): I'm just fine. Good evening.

COATES: A lot of work done, and a lot of work still ahead it seems. When you hear who is at the White House these days and they are talking about things like martial law and seizing voting machines, and plans to even disrupt the Congress, finalizing the results on January 6th. In light of all of that's happening, what goes through your mind?

CLYBURN: Well, you know, I have been wondering for some time now what is that these members -- or displaying such low regard for the electoral process, as well as the legislative process? We have been working for some time now to try and get some relief to the American people. Not to stimulate the economy.

Too many people are suffering from a lack of food on the table. Their rent is due. Their mortgage is overdue. And we are trying to get relief to the American people. And here they are running around, talking about whether or not they are going to disrupt the proceedings of the House on the 6th when we have to count the electoral votes. These things don't make sense to me. And I don't know why they will allow themselves to be caught up in the fantasy world. That's all this is.

COATES: Yes, I prefer to stay here on planet earth with you, Congressman. And you know, you are back on with Don back in 2018, two years ago now, and you are concerned then about President Trump possibly abusing his power to stay in office.

And so, what is President Trump's final month in the White House are going to look like? I mean, if this is any indication, you were so right back in 2018.

CLYBURN: Well, you know, I studied history pretty much all of my life. I studied when I was a pre teenager. I just got enamored with how events unfold. And I taught history for a while. And I can tell you this. I saw way back then that this president was lining up to circumvent the Constitution, to really disobey or disregard, should I say, the public -- the public's will.

And I suspect that between now and the 20th of January, we are going to see a lot more foolishness than we have already seen. But I think our institutions are holding. I think the Supreme Court has demonstrated it's independent as it should. And I do believe that the American people are going to be a part of a new start administration being sworn into office on January 20th.

COATES: Well I like your glass half full approach. And I like the notions that this is an indication that perhaps the democracy is working.

But let's talk about the stimulus right now. Really democracy in action. Are you pleased with the deal? I mean, are the $600 direct payments to individuals enough for one year. One of your colleagues says that it's really an insult. What do you think about that?

CLYBURN: Well, I wouldn't call it an insult. I will say this. It is not a stimulus. I've been calling it a relief bill, because there is nothing in this bill that's going to stimulate the economy in any way. People are too far down. Too far behind, I should say, in their mortgage payments, in their rent, there are people who are living from day-to-day just trying to get by.

So, this $600 per person, $2,400 for a family of four, but $600 per person is really inadequate. This bill is insufficient.

[22:15:00]

And we got where we had $1,200 per person before. So, I think that we really need to be serious about what we need to do for the American people. But there are a lot of things in this legislation as well, that all of it insufficient to do what we need to do for the American people.

COATES: Well, for now, you have the eviction moratorium that's there, you have other things about child care and education. There are -- there is some good in there. But I think it's accurate to suggest that there is so much more to be done.

And as part of more than you were doing you issued subpoenas today to Health and Human Services Secretary Alex Azar and CDC Director Robert Redfield after uncovering evidence of possible political meddling with the coronavirus response. I mean, tell us more about what's happening there?

CLYBURN: Well, back in September we asked for some information from both Secretary Azar and Director Redfield and after some recalcitrance they sent us some information but a lot of it was what we did not ask for and a lot of what we ask for we did not get. And so, we negotiated with them and they promised to send the information and they have not kept that promise.

So, I said to them several times, that we did not want to go the route of a subpoena and we just wanted them to get the information. Because ever since we asked for the information, we have gotten testimony from employees saying to us that they were asked to delete certain correspondence relating to the information that we wanted.

And we now know that there was at least one person, Mr. Alexander, that seemed to be pushing herd immunity, he even said in a recording we want them to get infected. Now that's not what this policy was supposed to be. And we are asking them to give us this document because we have found even since then that there is some information that went between these two agencies that we would like to see. And they are not giving it to us.

So that's why earlier today we issued the subpoenas and we're going to go forward because the American people deserve to know exactly what was going on when 315,000 people have now died as a result of this infection and we need to get to the bottom of it.

COATES: We absolutely do. And I mean, it's exposed and exploited so many inequities along the way not to mention the political aspect that you're now raising. You saw that President-elect Biden received the COVID vaccine today and you receive the vaccine I guess on Friday, so tell us how are you feeling, Congressman?

CLYBURN: I feel fine. You know, I got up the morning afterwards and they told me that I was supposed to have a soreness in my left arm. That's where I took the shot. I felt mostly sore in my right, the shoulder that I slept on than I did on my left shoulder. So, I feel fine. I don't have any kind of side effects.

But I wanted to do that and I wanted to make it public because as I've said, I've studied history all of my life. I've taught it. And I know that 57 percent of black people in this country are saying they are not going to take the shot.

I want them to feel comfortable taking this shot because I know that the Tuskegee experiment, I know what happened with AIDS, and I know that black people feel that they are the subject of experiments. I wanted them to see that there is a lot of value in taking this shot. You've got to get beyond this pandemic, and the only way we can do that is to get people immunized.

And I want everybody to be immunized irrespective of skin color or gender, or station in life. That's why we want this vaccine to be free. And that's one of the things we're doing with my committee now. We are looking at the distribution of this vaccine, both Pfizer and Moderna, and we may get one or two others.

We want to make sure that rural communities, and we think that probably Moderna would be the best for rural communities because it can be stored at regular temperatures ref and you can get it out into the rural areas. So that's what we are working on now and I want people to feel comfortable doing it. So, I believe in leading by example.

COATES: Congressman Clyburn, or should I say professor of history Clyburn, and now leader by example, I appreciate your time tonight. Thank you so much.

[22:20:02]

CLYBURN: Thanks for having me.

COATES (on camera): Trump is turning to a fringe group of advisers who are peddling conspiracies and increasingly dubious tactics. Advisers like Steve Bannon who was encouraging him not to back down, even though Trump lost the election.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

STEVE BANNON, FORMER WHITE HOUSE ADVISOR: He is not going to back down. He will never concede. And I will tell you in the small chance we don't win this, he will never sit on that stage and participate in inauguration.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COATES (on camera): President Trump is becoming increasingly desperate in his final days in office. White House advisers tell CNN they fear what he could do over the next few weeks. One administration official saying no one is sure where this is heading. While another official adds, quote, "this is scary."

Joining me now, former White House communications director Anthony Scaramucci, and CNN political analyst Kirsten Powers. I'm glad to have you both here tonight.

Let me, begin with you, Anthony, tonight. And you know, you've seen chaos at the White House up close and personal. I mean, are these wild election conspiracies truly as dangerous as they seem?

ANTHONY SCARAMUCCI, FORMER WHITE HOUSE COMMUNICATIONS DIRECTOR: Well, listen, there's a lot of smoke coming out of the White House. There are probably people there that are still reasonable and somewhat rational that are recognizing how alarming all this is and so they're signaling to journalists about how alarming it is.

And then you've got Steve Bannon who was obviously off his rocker talking about the slim chance of them losing. I mean, it's just more ridiculous stuff. It's all part of that grift though, Laura. They're trying to raise money off of this to the last possible minute. They have figured out that this is bank for them if they continue this nonsense.

COATES: And by the way, they are making a lot of money. Not just Trump change we're talking about. They're getting a lot going into the coffers right now.

[22:24:59]

And Kristen, I have to turn to you because you wonder what the motivation of say, Bannon might be and also what the motivation of, say, lawyer Sidney Powell, and disgrace national security advisor Michael Flynn. They are all scheming with House conservatives over how to maintain power.

I mean, there is zero real governing going on in the midst of a pandemic and an economic crisis. And by the way, there's still a cyberattack that's one of the largest in history that affect the United States of America. So, what's going on here, Kristen?

KIRSTEN POWERS, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, I mean, it looks like they are all just trying to curry favor with Donald Trump who, you know, does have this massive grift going on raising all this money off of this ludicrous idea that somehow the election was stolen from him even though they can't win court cases, they can't produce any evidence, but they want to continue telling the loyal people who follow them that this is what's going on.

And so, they have to put on his show that they are fighting until the very end against this alleged fraud that doesn't exist, and again, that they can't produce any evidence of. And I think it's just something to make money off of and to position Donald Trump as somebody who didn't lose an election. Right? He can still claim to the people who support him that it was stolen from him.

COATES: And of course one of the people who has not been supportive of that theory, of the idea of there all is this widespread fire fraud and abuse happening is the Attorney General Bill Barr who you know, Anthony, has been pushing back saying that he has and sees no reason to appoint a special counsel to seize voting machines. He was President Trump's one of his most loyal allies, and all of a sudden, he is saying I can't even enter crazy town through that door.

SCARAMUCCI: Well, and if you notice the Republicans in the Senate never brought him or subpoenaed him to testify because they know exactly what he is going to say. Now remember they got Chris Krebs on a nuance. He was talking about the cybersecurity that's when he was in charge of, he basically said it was the safest election ever. Then they pushed him on fraud. That wasn't his area, so they try to expound on that.

If they brought Attorney General Barr in of course he would have to say the truth that there was no fraud in that election. If anything, they found one person voting for their dead mom for Donald Trump. So, this is just more insanity, Laura.

COATES: Well, you know, it must be said, the idea that the president still has pardoning power and some of the people who were involved would like to be in his ear, perhaps, you know, they want to be in there, they want to have some influence there.

Kirsten, I have to ask you. I mean, I seem to remember that anytime this administration is called to task for the abysmal handling of the coronavirus case and crisis, anytime it comes up the White House points to the China travel ban as evidence that they have traveled things really well. And yet so far, they have seen no need to shut down travel from the U.K. Does this make sense to you at all?

POWERS: No. I mean, look, the president has been disengaged from this, from the very beginning. They had warnings months in advance that it was coming our way, that it was coming to the United States. There were all sorts of things that they could've done. There's all sorts of protocols that they could've put in place. They could've things that we saw done in other countries that are in a much better position than we are.

And he is even more disengaged now if that's possible. Because he has been so disengaged this entire time and to the extent, he was engaged he was just putting out bad information and making things worse.

So, I guess maybe in some ways it's better to have him disengage. I don't know because he's not going to do anything that's going to help the situation if the past is prologue. I mean, nothing that he did in any way made the people who really trust, who really listened to him and who really trust him think that this was something they needed to take seriously. You know, for example, wear a mask or social distance or just do the basic things that could have saved God knows how many lives.

COATES: God knows how many lives. And if past are prologue, we're going to need to hear from both of you again. Anthony Scaramucci, Kirsten Powers, I'm glad that you're both here tonight.

POWERS: Thank you.

COATES: Thank you.

SCARAMUCCI: Good to be here. COATES: You know, a variant of coronavirus is spreading rapidly throughout the United Kingdom. My next guest says it looks more dangerous. He will explain just why just ahead.

[22:30:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COATES (on camera): Dozens of countries not taking any chances over a coronavirus variant in the United Kingdom that's spreading rapidly. More and more nations implementing a crackdown on trouble from the U.K. British health officials stressing that there's no reason to think that this variant is more lethal. But it could be spreading 70 percent faster.

The White House considering testing requirements for travelers from the U.K. But Dr. Anthony Fauci says the variant could already be here.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ANTHONY FAUCI, DIRECTOR, NATIONAL INSTITUTE OF ALLERGY AND INFECTIOUS DISEASES: Given the travel throughout the world, I would not be surprised if it's already here. When we start to look for it, we're going to find it. Certainly, it's not the prevalent one. The way it seems to have assumed that prevalent nature in the U.K. But we're going to be looking for it right now. And I'm sure sooner or later we're going to run into it and find it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COATES (on camera): Joining me now, William Haseltine, former Harvard medical School professor.

I'm glad you're here tonight, professor. I've got so many questions for you. Because you've looked at the data, and you say that there are permutations in this variant that make it look more dangerous. So dangerous in what ways exactly?

WILLIAM HASELTINE, FORMER PROFESSOR, HARVARD MEDICAL SCHOOL: The first thing to say is thank you very much. But the first thing to say is this is the second step up in increased transmissibility that we've seen. The virus that originally came to Europe was not as infectious but then mutated, it became much more infectious.

This virus takes off from them becomes even more infectious. That's because it has mutations in the region in which it binds to the cell. But when you look closely at the other parts of the virus, there are other changes that make you take notice.

The first is there is a change in what's called the cleavage region. We know that increases the lethality of the virus. That can make cells die more quickly. And when you put this virus onto cells they die in a very different way.

[22:34:56] Then, this virus has got many changes that allow it to escape from immune surveillance. It looks like these viruses evolved to get around our immunity. And some of the sites that have been changed, our sites that we know are really (Inaudible) for creating immunity. It looks like the way that we are treating some patients is super charging evolution.

And before we pay all of our attention to what's going on in Britain, there is new reports out of South Africa that a similar virus that show some of the same characteristics but different is doing the same thing there. The way we are treating --

(CROSSTALK)

COATES: Similar to the variant? Excuse me, or the corona -- or COVID- 19 as we now know it? The variant or the one we now know?

HASELTINE: There are two -- yes. There is a variant that's more transmissible in the U.K. And it's just been found. There is another variant similar but probably from a different origin in South Africa.

(CROSSTALK)

COATES: Let me ask you about that --

HASELTINE: Because some of the very same -- go ahead.

COATES: Excuse me, but let me ask you about that word because that word keeps coming up about it being more transmissible. And from what we know we know of course, we're all told that it's airborne. One of the reasons we're wearing the mask of course.

So, walk me through the science here in very simple terms because how does a virus become more transmissible than say even being airborne or is that the wrong terminology that's misleading people into thinking that this is less perhaps of an infectious rate, and they're having the wrong word choice here?

HASELTINE: Ultimately, it means how easy it is for one person to catch the virus from the other. That's what transmission is. And you can give all sorts of numbers to it. The British estimate that this is 70 percent more transmissible. For everyday life, that means being in a place for a shorter time can get you infected, where normally the virus wouldn't infect you.

So fewer viruses, shorter times can lead to infection. And infection can lead to serious disease. That's what the increase in transmissibility means. They found one in the U.K., and now they found another one in South Africa.

And let me say it's the second step up. It's not the first. The first virus that arrived in the United States came from the West Coast and was not as infectious, was not as transmissible. There is a new one that's now -- then they got a virus from Europe that was more transmissible, that's 99 percent of all the viruses in the U.S. today, and now this is even more. When it comes to whether we should keep and stop the British from

flying here, I think we should, because it's true, maybe it's here. Maybe there's 100 people. There are about 300,000 people from the U.K. that come to the U.S. every year. A number of those are likely to be carrying the virus.

And it makes a difference whether there's a 1,000 or 10,000 people spreading the virus, so I would say let's do what 30 other countries have done at least for a month and see what happens. This is not something we want here.

COATES: Sure, but you know who disagrees to an extent, and that's Dr. Fauci. And I mention him only because he says that this variant should not have any impact on the protective ability that the vaccines have, and whether they are actually going to be able to undermine the efficacy of the vaccines which is on top of mind for so many people.

Do we know for sure whether this variant is going to be able to be tackled, so to speak, by this vaccine, or do we just not know yet, Professor Haseltine?

HASELTINE: Well, with all due respect to Dr. Fauci, who is a great friend and I've worked with him for 30 years, we don't know. And I would rather be on the safe side in a case where we don't know when the virus is more transmissible. I think it's very likely the vaccine will work, but we don't know that.

This virus it looks like it's evolved to evade a number of our immune defenses. We know how probably these viruses arise. We give patients who are not capable of making their own immune response convalescence syrup. That partially suppresses the virus but it doesn't do it immediately. And that creates a condition that allows the virus to mutate. We are super charging the mutation rate of this virus and this is what we are getting.

COATES: Well, you know, we have more than 600,000 Americans as you know who have been vaccinated already and the first Moderna vaccines went in people's arms today. And we even saw Joe Biden get the Pfizer vaccines. Are you feeling at all confident now about how the rollout is going so far? Or is this variant just undermining your confidence?

HASELTINE: I'm very happy like all Americans are that we have a vaccine. It's a God send. It's a relief. But I think the way we should look at it as virologists, which I am, I'm a virologist, I think the way we should look at it is that this is probably going to turn into something like the flu.

This virus can mutate more than we thought it can. It can evade immune responses like the flu virus. And we know from this whole family of viruses, the coronaviruses, that they come back every year in one form or another. So, we have to be prepared for that.

[22:39:59]

Yes, we have vaccines. Yes, they work, but they don't stop it entirely. And I think that's what we have to prepare ourselves. We have to prepare our research for that. We have to prepare our people for that. We have to prepare our public health service. For now, we are now having a second kind of virus like the flu virus in our midst for a long time to come. That's what is looking like.

COATES: Professor Haseltine, thank you so much for your time. It sounds like preparation and prevention are going to be even better perhaps than the cure --

HASELTINE: Right.

COATES: -- at this moment and time. Thank you for your time and expertise, sir.

HASELTINE: You're welcome. Thank you.

COATES: Thank you. And you know, martial law in the Oval Office? Well, sources are telling CNN that this was actually brought up in a meeting with Trump and his advisers. And just the fact that it was even brought up means trouble for democracy. My case, up next.

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COATES: Martial law, huh. Is that really where we are? You do realize that would mean that the military would push civilian authorities aside. Be in the position to enforce the law and even you serve the rules of elected officials. Civilians would be subject to military control. Not exactly the definition of a democracy or America for that matter.

Has it ever happened before? Well, yes, in circumstances nothing like we have here. In times of war or natural disasters or crisis, like President Lincoln did during the Civil War. Or President Roosevelt did in Hawaii in the aftermath of Pearl Harbor. Leading to the internment of human beings.

Actual crises. Not the personal or manufactured crisis of a president wanting to just remain in power. That's what a dictator would do.

And Congress has greatly restricted the president's ability to use the military for domestic purposes or participate in civilian actions without congressional approval. And none has been giving here.

[22:44:55]

So, the fact that anyone even broach the idea of using the military to re-run elections to keep Trump in power is enough to discussed anyone who believes in democracy. Particularly, if that idea is part of a larger last-ditch, nonsensical and unsubstantiated effort to overturn the election results.

A president who reportedly disparaged service members as losers or suckers is now even entertaining a conversation about using the military to reverse his actual loss? Not just ironic or even political je ne sais quoi, it's a coup d'etat. Full stop.

And although he via Twitter suggest that the reporting is fake news it smacks of credibility for the same reasons it was more than plausible, he made those comments about the military. It's about the pattern. Hoping to bend those called to serve to his will. Even when it runs directly counter the Constitution itself.

The people want to exercise their first amendment right to assemble and protest are one of the most iconic public form on the planet. The sidewalk in front of the White House bringing troops to move him so he can have a photo op with a bible on hand.

Unrest in a city. Send in the military but only if the mayor is a Democrat. The president wants Congress to remove legal protections for social media companies, so threatened to veto the annual defense bill unless Congress does.

The military should never be used to settle personal scores. They should be honored for the daily sacrifices both their own and their families, not used for leverage to stay in power. The president is the commander-in-chief, and of course he has the right to have political appointees serve at his pleasure.

But the armed forces like the agencies Trump's political appointees oversee they serve the nation. And valiantly at that. They're not a security detail any more than the Department of Justice is his private law firm.

There are real enemies of the United States so there's no need to entertain, let alone prioritize imaginary threats. And if the president is looking for a way to say suspend his final days in office, and actually run all the way through the tape, well, might I suggest a few real problems tonight.

The pandemic. That economic crisis or even the largest cyberattack in this nation's history. But first, Mr. President, out of respect, a salute to our military.

Next up, former Defense Secretary William Cohen weighs in on all of this. And I'm sure he'll have a lot to say about martial law actually being spoken about in the Oval Office.

[22:50:00]

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COATES (on camera): New tonight, House conservatives meet privately with President Trump and Vice President Pence to prepare for a long shot bid to overturn the election. That after an Oval Office meeting with key Trump allies, where there was actually discussion of invoking martial law. Some White House staffers alarmed about what could happen next.

Joining me now former Defense Secretary, William Cohen. I'm so glad you're here to talk about this. You are an expert in this. And I'm glad to have your expertise on tonight, Secretary. Because you know there's been conversations in the Oval Office about implementing martial law and overturning the election. I mean, what is the responsibility of any official who hears about this? WILLIAM COHEN, FORMER U.S. DEFENSE SECRETARY: Well, it's to speak out.

I will tell you that back in March of this year I had a conversation with a colleague of yours from another network and I said I believe that President Trump will try and delay the elections because of the COVID-19 and invoke martial law.

He sorts of laugh it off. But I was either a bit too early or too late in my observation of the timeframe. I said that because I know that President Trump is pathological, in my judgment. When we say it's embarrassing for the president to talk about martial law, I think it's pathological. And I'm really quite tired of Republicans in particular trying to take him through the five stages of denial.

There is only one stage for him. Denial. He is not going to recognize that President-elected Biden was elected legitimately without any fraud. Substantial fraud as such. And so, looking at it -- he's kind of a combination in the psychological development of it and ego. But he has no super ego as such that recognizes shame or conscience, or the ability to confess error.

And so, he's locked in this tight psychological group of saying I can't lose because I can't lose. And to invoke the conversation of martial law is very dangerous. Because what he has done over the past five years, five years, actually is to repeat a word that then gets taken by his -- by his supporters.

For example, the stench of his lies takes on the perfume, the aroma perfume if it's repeated often enough. So now we have 70 or 80 percent of Republicans believe the election was rigged because he said it was rigged. And now with this word martial law starts getting out there. And he has someone like Lieutenant General Michael Flynn repeating it. And now we are repeating it.

So, his supporters take that as perhaps there's something here. Perhaps we can do something that may cause civil strife that will give the president justification for sending in the troops. And so, I worry about that. I think we say it's extreme, and it is. But it's not too extreme for someone who doesn't recognize any balance of his power. And that's the problem I have.

COATES: Well, the idea that this being so intoxicating that these fumes could really undermine democracy is really what's so shocking to so many people. I mean, is a lot of what we are seeing right now, Secretary, with Trump plotting to overturn the election, the result of Republicans who have just given him a lot of leeway with his sort of autocratic tendencies, not just now but throughout his entire presidency.

It didn't begin with a statement about martial all. That's the combination of a lot of comfort and being able to raise issues like this. Right?

COHEN: Right. Well, it's a combination of the complicity and fear. They fear the loss of support of his supporters. And they basically support what he has been doing. I have always believed in the wise words of a teacher who said raise words not your voice. Because it's rain that produces flowers, not thunder.

[22:55:03]

But I'd like to have more thunder. I'd like to have more thunder from Republicans in the Senate saying, Mr. President, do not say these words. Do not put that out into the public that you are actually talking about this in the Oval Office. Because the more you talk about it the greater credence it has with people who are not rational or responsible, who may be the boogaloo boys, or the Proud Boys, and see this as an invitation to do something that can cause the kind of civil strife that he would then use as a justification for trying to send in the troops.

Now I believe the troops would not go because who have the -- having served in the Pentagon, but the chairman of the joint chiefs, and all of the joint chiefs, and the command structure would say we have an obligation to follow the lawful commands of the commander-in-chief but not the unlawful ones.

And I think that they would -- that it would be a dereliction of duty on their part, and they know it if they would ever agree to this. And so, what I think they would say to him that, you know, we're not just -- we can no longer say just following orders. We went through that during November. We're not just following orders. Only legal and lawful orders.

And so, I think he would have trouble. But there are ways in which he would try to circumvent them which I won't suggest in public but I think there are ways, and they are conniving about ways in which they can involve the military in order to impose some sort of intervention by the military.

COATES: Now quickly before we go, I mean this point when the House has scheduled debates, Secretary, to override the president's potential veto of the defense spending bill over changing names of bases that have been named after confederate icons and his gripe to social media companies, and he's putting that as we know above paying our troops right now. You talk about dereliction of duty. This is the commander- in-chief. How is the commander-in-chief, how is this is happening?

COHEN: Well, he's been unfit to be commander-in-chief and we've known that for the past years. And this is one case where you have a major authorization bill that has not been denied in 59 years, and yet he's willing to put that authorization bill which has money for all of our troops, their pay raises, their families. It has money in there for cyber command as such, or putting a cyber command in the office in the White House itself. All of that is involved.

And he is concerned about a provision in another piece of legislation that has nothing to do with national defense. So, he once again is sacrificing our security in order to play to his pet feeds about Twitter, in anyway, monitoring what he says as being truthful or untruthful. And that's the commander-in-chief we have.

COATES: Secretary, that's the commander-in-chief we have. Well said. Thank you for joining tonight. I appreciate it so much to hear from you.

COHEN My pleasure.

COATES: You know, our breaking news tonight. Congress as you know is voting on a relief bill late tonight. And we are live on Capitol Hill with Senator Chris Coons right after this.

UNKNOWN: Durbin, Feinstein, Fisher, Gardner, Gillibrand, Grant --

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