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Don Lemon Tonight

Trump Administration Officials Resign; Trump's Ex-White House Chief of Staff John Kelly Supports Using 25th Amendment to Remove President; Trump Condemns Rioting After Inciting Supporters; Prosecutors Investigating Trump's Role In Inciting Riot; Interview with Rep. Connor Lamb (D-PA) about the protesters who storm Capitol Hill; Two House Members Confront Each Other During Debate; Police Criticized For Disparity In How Capitol Rioters Were Treated; Several Senators are Trying to Distance Away from President Trump After Promoting His Election Lies for Months; Prosecutors are "Looking at All Actors," Including President Trump, as Charges are Filed Against Some Capitol Rioters; Right-Wing Media Stokes the Flames of Pro-Trump Capitol Riots. Aired 11p-12a ET

Aired January 07, 2021 - 23:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[23:00:00]

DON LEMON, CNN HOST: Tonight, sources saying several Trump cabinet secretaries have informally discussed invoking the 25th amendment to forcibly remove the president less than two weeks before his term ends. But saying Vice President Mike Pence is highly unlikely to pursue that path. And there are growing calls among Democrats and some Republicans to remove the president from office after he incited the deadly insurrection on Capitol Hill. Tonight, Trump saying he condemns the rioting even though he encourages his supports to take action against lawmakers.

And more breaking news to tell you about, the U.S. reporting a record high number of COVID-19 deaths today, over 4,000. A stunning number. This country is facing a huge crisis, and we need real leadership right now.

Joining me now to discuss, CNN's White House correspondent John Hardwood and former Obama senior adviser, David Axelrod. Good evening gentlemen, thanks for joining. John, we are learning Education Secretary Betsy DeVos among the latest officials to resign in the wake of Trump inciting domestic terrorist to storm the Capitol. If they're really concerned, why not stay and do something about it?

JOHN HARWOOD, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, I think that's probably true for national security officials more narrowly since national security seems to be the greatest potential danger that Trump would pose. I don't think he can do much damage at the vacant education secretary's position. But I think that the effect of the resignations -- Elaine Chao as transportation secretary and Betsy DeVos is of a piece with a discussion to the 25th amendment and the calls for Trump's impeachment and removal from office.

I don't think those things are going to happen, but I think the collective weight of all of that discussion, the resignations within the White House, within the cabinet, the clear escalation of the talk that he must be removed, that is obviously made an impression on him. Donald Trump was playing around with firecrackers that he recognizes that he blew a couple of his fingers off, and I think that the fact that that happened has chastened him.

He put out this video statement tonight conceding that he's not going to be president after January 20th. That was a positive step, a step forward for the country. Now, with 13 days -- or now 12 days left in his presidency, he's certainly capable of switching gears and doing something whacky tomorrow, but I think as we end this day that is a positive step forward.

LEMON: Yes. And that video, as you mentioned, he is rewriting his response to the riots especially when it calls to -- you know.

HARWOOD: Of course.

LEMON: Calling the National Guard, that is not true. He said he did it immediately. None of that is true. David, listen, CNN's Gloria Borger reporting that some officials in the administration trying to constrain the president without invoking the 25th amendment. So, is he just going to get a pass on this? He's a no consequences president?

DAVID AXELROD, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: We'll see. There may be legal consequences and we'll see about that. But, you know, just as a practical matter, the invocation of the 25th amendment seems really remote as John suggested. And the more these cabinet members resign, I think the more remote it becomes. But apparently Pence doesn't have an appetite for that.

And you know, Congress may -- I think there will be a big move in Congress. There will be a big sentiment to want to impeach the president. The idea that they are going to impeach him and that the Senate is going to take it up and he's going to be convicted in the next 13 days is unlikely. And Biden apparently doesn't have a great appetite for this either.

I understand that, because it would be very inflammatory, and it would detract from what Biden wants to be talking about, which is his transition, where he's going to lead the country, and so on. And he doesn't want to put another log on this fire.

So, Don, I understand the spirit of your question, but right now, the question is what's best for the country? And what's best for the country is to quiet Donald Trump down and pack him up and get him out of the White House and move on to the next administration.

LEMON: So, John, Trump's former chief of staff, General John Kelly says the cabinet should consider removal. This is what he told Jake earlier.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOHN KERRY, FMR. U.S. SECRETARY OF STATE: The behavior yesterday and the weeks and months before that has just been outrageous from the president and what happened on Capitol Hill yesterday was a direct result of his, you know, poisoning the minds of people with the lies and the frauds.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: Poisoning minds with lies -- the mother of a Trump supporter who was killed during yesterday's insurrection tells CNN that she was passionate enough to die for what she believed in. Unfortunately, these were lies, John.

[23:05:12]

HARWOOD: Absolutely they were lies. And a lot of people bear responsibility for the circulation of those lies, Donald Trump first among them. But also many of the voices in conservative media who had encourage this. Many of the voices that you were talking about. Scott Jennings, a few minutes ago, within the Congress who have been fueling this, you know, more than 100 House members voting for these ridiculous objections, which are grounded in nothing, they were going nowhere.

Josh Hawley and Ted Cruz in the Senate advancing those and setting the stage for what happened when people rushed the Capitol yesterday. It's quite clear that people like John Kelly, Jim Mattis, John Bolton, have said either quietly or very loudly that they believe Donald Trump is unfit for office, but as John Bolton's been saying over the last 24 hours the key question is now, how do you get out of this situation without making it worse?

And I think, you know, David said pack him up and get him out. That's a good way of putting it. John Bolton said get him to a golf course and let him play golf for the next 12 days. Get him out of a place where he could do harm to the country. And I think if Donald Trump left the White House, went to Mar-a-Lago, played golf for 12 days and Joe Biden could come have a relatively peaceful inauguration, take over with control of the House and the Senate, he would be delighted if that happened and nothing else.

I think the maximum that is likely to happen from any of these other things we are talking about, like 25th amendment or impeachment is that, you could see that Democrats in the House vote to impeach him, right? I don't think that's necessarily likely, but I certainly think that could happen next week. He's not going to be convicted in the Senate. I don't believe there's enough tie for that. You would need unanimous consent, a 100 Senators to go along with an expedited schedule. That's simply not going to happen. So, I think a quiet and low profile is better than anything else in the situation.

LEMON: David, Trump still has the nuclear codes for the next 13 days. But General Kelly says that he can give all kind of orders, all the orders he wants but no one around Trump is going to break the law. Are you that confident?

AXELROD: You know, I am, I think. I don't think -- I think everyone understands the situation here. They're trying to manage the president. The military in particular and all of these defense secretaries speaking that when they did was a very strong message. I think Kelly and Mattis speaking is a strong message. I think people do understand what the score is here.

But I want to go back to something John said at the beginning. It was really meaningful that the president -- he delivered that video tonight with all the sincerity of a hostage tape. But nonetheless he did it and he read the words that were written for him, which tells me that he does realize that all of the -- all these people quitting and all these people coming out and condemning him, who he thought were friends and allies or had been in the past.

I think -- and the threat of a potential incitement charges, I think he knows he got out over his skis and he may have been shocked into at least some withdrawal from the jagged edge on which he was -- over which he was leaning here. So, you know, I think that it's a situation that needs to be managed in the next 13 days, and I think that's what's going to happen.

LEMON: Yes. John, David, thank you very much. I appreciate it.

I want to bring in now former Nixon White House counsel, John Dean. John, good evening to you. Federal prosecutors say that they are looking into the role of President Trump, the role that he played in inciting the rioters. Should he face charges?

JOHN DEAN, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Well, I don't think he should get a pass. I don't know if he can be charged directly for inciting it. It's kind of vague. It was a -- he's very good and very clever with this sort of thing of giving orders that his followers and employees understand, but he is on the safe side with his language.

Now, I think some of the other peep people around him were much more blatant in trying to incite. I think -- looking at Rudy and looking at the -- his sons, there may be more defined in those statements that they gave that crowd than the president.

LEMON: Every time I see this video I just cannot believe these crazy people. John, The New York Times is reporting that White House counsel Pat Cipollone warned the president that he could be at risk. He always seemed to be able to avoid accountability. You say you think he's safe with his language, but the question is, is he going to be able to avoid accountability this time? Is this time different?

[23:10:08]

DEAN: Well, I think that the House is going to take some action against him. I think they would like to impeach him again. And while it may not reach a trial in the Senate, you got to remember, Don, we're already in to the new Congress. We're into the 117th Congress. So while the Democrats don't control the Senate yet -- they won't until the two races in Georgia are certified, which will happen somewhere between January 15th and January 22nd -- there won't be a -- the House can move with considerable speed on impeachment, and they may well -- I think they could do it. And might well do it, too.

LEMON: Yeah. All right. Thank you, John. I appreciate it.

DEAN: Thank you, Don. LEMON: A lot of people pointing out what was clear to anyone who

watched the riot yesterday. Those Trump supporters were treated very differently from Black Lives Matter protesters. I'm going to talk to Congressman Connor Lamb, who had this to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. CONOR LAMB (D-PA): They walk in here free. A lot of them walked out free, and there wasn't a person watching at home who didn't know why that was, because of the way that they look.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[23:15:00]

LEMON: So, in the wake of yesterday's siege on Capitol Hill, one thing became obviously clear -- the double standard in how law enforcement treated Trump supporting domestic terrorists and how we have seen Black Lives Matter protesters treated. The difference was stark. It was even brought up on the House floor last night.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LAMB: Let's be clear about what happened in this chamber today. Invaders came in for the first time since the war of 1812. They desecrated these hauls and this chamber and frantically every inch of ground where we work. And for the most part they walk in here free. A lot of them walkout free, and there wasn't a person watching at home who didn't know why that was, because of the way that they look.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: That was Congressman Conner Lamb and he joins me now. Congressman, thank you. I really appreciate you joining us this evening. I know that it was a very busy and quite frightening time for you considering what happened yesterday. You say a lot of these domestic terrorists walked right out of the Capitol building free yesterday because of the way they look. You think they would have been treated differently if they were Black Lives Matter protesters.

LAMB: Yes, I do. I think it's hard to draw any other conclusion based on the year that we have had and what we all watched this summer and how many different cities. And I want to be clear -- I don't know if the fault here is in the judgment of the officers at the moment or in the failure to plan and have a strategy ready for this type of crowd because of who they were and what they looked like and those are two different things that we're going to have to ask a lot of questions about in the days ahead, but we can't deny what everybody witnessed.

LEMON: Yes. Absolutely. So, you were extremely critical of your Republican colleagues during your remarks. A shouting match broke out. A confrontation between Congressman Andy Harris and Colin Allred had to be broken up. Let's watch that moment, and then we'll talk about it. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LAMB: It hurts. It hurts them, it hurts this country, it hurts all of us. But the fact is that the people had made this country work by not giving in. Go ahead, shout it out.

UNKNOWN: The gentleman is not in order! There will be order in the House. There will be order in the House. There will be order in the House.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: What was going through your head when that happened?

LAMB: You know, not much. I was pretty focused on just maintaining the floor, continuing to speak, not being robbed of my time, which is really my constituents' time to address the issues at hand. And I'll say, being on the same side as Colin Allred felt pretty good and it made me realized that I didn't need to move an inch from where I was. He had that covered.

LEMON: There's talk of an acting Congressman, the 25th amendment or even impeaching Trump a second time in his punishment for his role in stirring up this mob yesterday. How do you think he should be dealt with?

LAMB: I think every option needs to be on the table, and we have to plan for every single scenario. So I understand why the speaker and the leader are doing what they're doing. You know, we have to remember that in a time when I think Americans are looking for us to be passionate and strong, they're also looking to us to be steady and sensible.

And so you know, with each day, we have to face also the practical realities, some of which I think you guys had discussed on this show already. It's one thing to run the stuff through the House to another to get it through the Senate, get the vice president on board. And I think an important strength of what we did last night was that many, many Republicans were on our side of that debate.

You know, there are arguments might have sounded a little bit different. Their tone could have been different, but last night was a bipartisan night in both in the House and Senate, and it was a smaller subset of Republicans who are at the last holdouts for this. You know, just cavalcade of lies that they have been rolling along with. And we need to remember that and try to stick with that in the days ahead.

LEMON: No one has asked that I've seen -- I'm sure someone has asked, but I haven't seen it. So, let me just restate that. But how are you guys doing -- how are you doing since yesterday? It was very traumatic. Do you think that you are going to live with the consequences of yesterday? Are you going to remember that, because it was extremely -- an extremely traumatic event to live through?

[23:20:16] LAMB: Sure I'll always remember it. But you know, I guess I would just

say, a lot of us signed up for this without really realizing it. You know, we didn't know that yesterday would take shape exactly the way that it did. But you know, we ran for Congress in the Donald Trump presidency, knowing everything that that could possibly entail and doing it because we thought it was important to defend the institution and to try to rebuild the institution, and a big part of that is reaching out toward and respecting our friends across the aisle, which made last night a difficult night.

But like I said, I was also proud of the ones that stood up for this country. I mean, it was a day for us all to think about the country and the symbol of our National Capitol, which does not belong to any party and definitely does not belong to the people that invaded it with their false flags yesterday. And I think you will see a renewed commitment by a lot of folks yesterday to what we are doing there. And I think it will all -- hopefully it will only make us better and more inspired.

LEMON: Congressman, thank you very much. And we're glad that you're safe. We appreciate you joining us.

LAMB: Thank you.

LEMON: So, joining me now is Peniel Joseph, a professor of history at the University of Texas at Austin. And CNN political commentator, Mitch Landrieu, the former mayor of New Orleans. I'm so glad that both of you are on this evening. Mayor, I know that you're fired up about this. We texted a little bit about it. I'm going to start with the professor, though, if you don't mind.

You know, listen. I just want to play something for you, right. This is law enforcement dealing with protests for police reform last summer. Clearing space for Trump's photo op. Contrast this to how MAGA rioters were treated yesterday. Is it racial bias? What do you think it is?

PENIEL JOSEPH, PROFESSOR OF HISTORY, UNIVERSITY OF TEXAS, AUSTIN: Yes, Don, I think that what we all witnessed yesterday is really the culmination of a deep history of structural racism that runs through our institutions, especially our criminal justice institution. So when we think about the history of policing in the United States, the history of policing is really rooted in after slavery trying to contain and punish and incarcerate and exploit Black people who had just become free after the civil war.

And we have the convict lease system, we have Black people -- both Black women and men who are incarcerated, who help build up the infrastructure of this country, who last only about seven years under that system of convict lease. And when we think about that convict lease system, when people today talk about defund the police, that's been used to smear BLM protesters. It's been used to smear social justice activists as if they hate the police. They don't hate the police. They're saying they dislike unjust law enforcement that historically has been rooted in the racial marginalization of Black people going back to the reconstruction. And one last thing, Don. What we saw yesterday is very similar to what

we saw in the late 19th century and the early 20th century and the civil rights era. We saw it during reconstruction in places like Texas, my home state, and South Carolina, and Mississippi, in New Orleans, in Memphis, Tennessee. Where white mobs attacked Black people and at times attacked their white allies for exercising their right to vote.

We saw it in the early 20th century in Atlanta, in Chicago, in Elaine, Arkansas, and Rosewood, Florida, and of course Tulsa, Oklahoma, where over 300 African Americans were massacred by white mobs. And then we saw it during the civil rights movement where white mobs tried to threaten African American school children, trying to get into public schools in Little Rock Central high School, in North Carolina, in other places.

So, we have a history of this in the United States. And in every single instance, law enforcement, which should have been on the side of citizens who are being oppressed, instead colluded with white mobs who are trying to prevent Black people from having citizenship and dignity in this country.

LEMON: You should see the pictures that were just running when you were up there. Hangman's noose, the confederate battle flag, Camp Auschwitz on someone's jacket. It's just repugnant. Mayor, President- Elect Biden commenting on the in equal justice that was on display yesterday. Watch this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE BIDEN (D), PRESIDENT-ELECT OF THE UNITED STATES: Not only did we see the failure to protect one of the three branches of our government, we also saw a clear failure to carry out equal justice. No one can tell me that if it had been a group of Black Lives Matter protesting yesterday, they wouldn't have been -- they wouldn't been treated very, very differently than the mob of thugs that stormed the Capitol. We all know that's true. And it is unacceptable. Totally unacceptable.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[23:25:14]

LEMON: As a former mayor, do you have a lot of experience dealing with law enforcement, how would you deal with the difference between how MAGA rioters were treated yesterday and how BLM protesters had been treated?

MITCH LANDRIEU, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, yesterday it was clear that every American was stung by the tragedy when the assault on the sanctuary of democracy took place at the instigation of the president. There's no question about that. But African Americans yesterday felt a very special pain that cannot be overlooked. There is no question that any man in America has that the disparage treatment that was rendered yesterday by law enforcement would have been vastly different -- and as a matter of fact, you also have the proof. If you have the pictures of the president at the church and law

enforcement handling Black Lives Matter movement or you have the National Guard standing at guard at the Lincoln Memorial when they thought that African-Americans would be out there and then you'll look at what happened yesterday and the lack of planning, you can't really come to any other conclusion.

And I will say this, White Americans have got to confront this, they have to deal with it. They have to understand that it is going to be very difficult for us to have racial reconciliation in this country, unless at first there's an acknowledgement that there is disparate treatment of (inaudible) people. That is what privilege. That is what bias is all about.

And so as we talk about the catastrophic fallout from yesterday, we cannot look away from the racial implication of what took place when we saw white nationalism running amok and try to destroy democracy in America.

LEMON: Listen, I have to run, but I do have to say, mayor, that there are folks who are making excuses for it, again, comparing it to what happened this summer. Again, not making the distinction between rioters and peaceful protesters for Black Lives Matter but trying to make a distinction between rioters and peaceful protesters for the insurrectionists who stormed the Capitol yesterday or for the Trump supporters.

So, there is a disconnect and people are trying to make excuses. They are trying to excuse what happened yesterday a way by comparing it to what happened this summer.

LANDRIEU: Well, let me just say this -- Conner Lamb said -- I don't know if it was the Capitol police or whether it was the planning. There's implicit bias in planning. If you think the group that's coming to Washington, and because they are white are going to be safer than the groups that are coming to Washington who are Black because there are going to be more dangerous than the design of how you create projections both for the protesters and wrote for the people in the Capitol would be vastly different.

And what happened yesterday, I can't imagine as a mayor who had planned security for an event like that, that you wouldn't have been more ready for something that you knew was coming, something that they said was coming, and something that they told you that they were going to engage in and you never did what was necessary just around the basic protection.

It was a national security failure of epic proportions. And I think that when Congress does its investigation, they're going find out that there was some bias in that, and the African-American community sees that very clearly. They want the white community to understand that. They want us to see it, they want us to know it, and they want us to do something about it and they're completely right.

LEMON: Well, I heard two different people today say what you said. Well, the Trump supporters don't have a history of violence like that. Which was again, that's implicit bias. And but they do, they do have a history of violence, right. Or that they didn't think that the groups who were coming to Washington would display some sort of violence.

(CROSSTALK)

LANDRIEU: That's exactly right. Let me just say this -- let me say this, the FBI for years and many of us have been talking about the rise of white nationalism, white supremacy and the danger that has continued to exist in this country and this administration looked the other way. The FBI itself has talked about this and it has not become a priority for this country. It needs to be a priority now, because they will tear us apart and it's critically important for the future of democracy.

LEMON: I'm going to have both of you back. This is a very important conversation. I thank you both. I appreciate it. I'll see you soon.

LANDRIEU: Thank you.

LEMON: great conversation. Thank you.

So, there's Trump yesterday and then there's Trump today.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We love you. You're very special.

To those who broke the law, you will pay.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: So, it's not just him. He's allies are changing their tune, trying to revise history, but we've got the tapes, the receipts. Next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[23:30:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: Some of the president's closest Republican allies now trying to revise history about how they have aided and abetted his worst instincts. Take Senator Lindsey Graham. Listen to what he said about the president's election fraud claims after yesterday's chaos at the Capitol.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM (R-SC): They said there are 66,000 people in Georgia under 18 voted. How many people believe that? I asked give me 10. Haven't had one. They said 8,000 felons in prison in Arizona voted. Give me 10. Haven't got one.

(END VIDEO CLIP) LEMON: Hmm. So, that is the same Lindsey Graham who allegedly called Georgia's secretary of state to discuss how he could discard legally- cast ballots. The same Lindsey Graham who repeatedly parroted the president's lies about election fraud.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GRAHAM: I want the computer systems in Michigan that flipped votes from Republicans to Democrats to be looked at and the software that was used all over the country. There are a lot of shenanigans going on here. Biden got more votes than Obama in a few areas of the country and only in a few areas. How could that be?

It's not unreasonable to ask the legislature to come back in and order an audit of the signatures in the presidential race to see if the system worked.

[23:34:58]

GRAHAM: What is unreasonable is to sit on your ass and do nothing when you've got a chance to save the country.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: OK. Charlie Dent is here, former congressman, and CNN senior political analyst Ron Brownstein. I mean, it's like -- put your finger in the wind, whatever. You know, see which way the wind is blowing. It's crazy.

Charlie, hardly -- Graham is hardly the one. Senator Ted Cruz putting out -- he seems hardly the only one, I should say. Senator Ted Cruz putting out a statement, calling for a peaceful transition of power even though he has been one of Trump's biggest enablers, pushing lies about fraud. Watch this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. TED CRUZ (R-TX): We have seen in the last two months unprecedented allegations of voter fraud, and that's produced a deep, deep distrust of our democratic process across the country. I think we in Congress have an obligation to do something about that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: Is anyone buying this?

CHARLIE DENT, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: No! I mean --

(LAUGHTER)

DENT: -- this is so nakedly transparent. Look, they were -- senators Cruz and Hawley were -- you know, were being very demagogic. They were stoking the passions of people for a cause that they knew would be unsuccessful. They knew that. They did it for political advantage.

And then when things blew up yesterday so horribly, now they realized they made an enormous mistake. And so now they changed their tone. But I think most sensible people realized, you know, who started the fire here, and they recognized who the firefighters are, too.

So, you can't -- you can't be both an arsonist and a firefighter here, Senator Cruz. But that's what it looks like to me. So, I don't think anybody is buying it.

LEMON: Ron, the fact is eight senators and nearly 139 House Republicans supported at least one objection to the Electoral College votes. How is history going to remember them?

RON BROWNSTEIN, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: Look, that's the revealing thing. Think about it. Those 139 House members voted to overturn the results -- subvert the results of the election in states with the clear goal of making Donald Trump the president again for four more years, even after what happened yesterday, right?

I mean, they were voting to throw out results in a kind of extended scheme to get him back into power, and they continue to do so even after the riot that he incited.

And to me, that is just kind of the exclamation point on four years in which congressional Republicans paved the road to this day. They abetted and enabled him at each step. Each time he broke a window, they swept up the glass, and that convinced him that no matter how far he went in undermining democratic rules and norms, there would be no consequences.

Yesterday, I thought, was the ultimate proof that Susan Collins was right, when she said that he learned a big lesson from impeachment, only the lesson that learned was that he could get --

LEMON: Get away.

BROWNSTEIN: -- no matter what he did --

LEMON: Yeah.

BROWNSTEIN: -- Republicans would not sanction him. And when they finally did, you know, it was after the Capitol itself was ransacked.

LEMON: One of his biggest apologists was John Kelly, right? He was the chief of staff for a while.

BROWNSTEIN: Yeah.

LEMON: Listen, I am grateful that he is coming out. I'm glad that he has finally seen the light. But he had plenty of opportunities before to talk about what the president was doing, the separation of children and so on and so forth. It did not happen. What do you think of him now? Quickly, if you can, Ron. I go to --

BROWNSTEIN: Oh, no, look -- I mean, look, John -- John Kelly, like Lindsey Graham, like others, are trying to take a very hard shower at 11:59.

LEMON: OK.

BROWNSTEIN: They're --

LEMON: All right.

BROWNSTEIN: -- up to their eyeballs in all of this.

LEMON: Charlie?

DENT: Kelly is -- I think John Kelly is a good man. He was in a really bad spot. I'm glad he is speaking up. He knows a lot about happened. He was not a political guy.

LEMON: Yeah.

DENT: I'm sure he just deals with enormous feelings of guilt having worked for this man, who he knows was glamorously unfit.

LEMON: Got it. Thank you, gentlemen. I appreciate it.

Federal investigators are looking into Trump's role in inciting the riots and he is trying to have his bases covered, looking into pardoning himself. The details are next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[23:40:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: Federal prosecutors saying they are looking at all actors involved in the riot at the Capitol on Wednesday, including the role that President Trump played in inciting the crowd. This is what he said just before domestic terrorists stormed the Capitol.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We're going to the Capitol. We're going to try and give our Republicans, the weak ones, because the strong ones don't need any of our help, we're going to try and give them the kind of pride and boldness that they need to take back our country. So let's walk down Pennsylvania Avenue --

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: So, CNN also learning that Trump is asking aides and lawyers about his self-pardon power.

Let's discuss now. CNN's legal analyst Elie Honig is here. Elie, I'm so glad you're here. Thank you so much, sir. So Trump --

ELIE HONIG, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Thanks, Don.

LEMON: He clearly incited his followers. What possible charges could he face? What's the burden of proof here?

HONIG: Yeah, Don. So, first of all, if this was anyone other than the president of the United States who said the things and did the things that President Trump did immediately before that attack on the Capitol, I don't think there's really much of a question.

I mean, look, the key legal question here is, was the president just engaged in sort of heated political rhetoric or was he inciting them to violence, to crime?

Look at his own language, stand back and stand by. You showed the tweet earlier, be there, we'll be wild. The clip you just played, let's go down to the Capitol.

And here is the biggest tell to me, Don, as a prosecutor. After they destroyed the place, after they tore the place up, Trump gave them a bravo.

[23:45:04]

HONIG: He said, remember this day forever, and he called them great patriots. That shows me they did exactly what he wanted them to do.

LEMON: We love you, he said.

HONIG: And if that's the case, he can be charged.

LEMON: Yeah, he said on the thing, we love you, right?

HONIG: Yeah.

LEMON: And then his daughter called them American patriots --

HONIG: Right.

LEMON: -- or something similar to that. So, Elie, Trump was hyping this January 6th thing on Twitter, as you said, saying that it would be wild. Former White House Chief of Staff John Kelly told Wolf Blitzer the president's words and intentions are clear. I think it was Jake. But go on.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOHN KELLY, FORMER WHITE HOUSE CHIEF OF STAFF (voice-over): The president knows who he's talking to when we tweets or when he makes statements. He knows who he's talking to. He knows what he wants them to do. And the fact that he said the things -- he has been saying the things he has been saying since the election, and encouraging people, no surprise again at what happened yesterday.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: Yeah. Again, not Wolf, it was Jake. The president uses coded language. Does that make it harder to hold him legally accountable?

HONIG: I don't think so. I think a good prosecutor can make that case. I think John -- I think John Kelly is exactly right. Look, he absolutely uses coded language. But just imagine the vision that Donald Trump was looking out at when he stood at the podium yesterday and addressed that crowd.

He has eyes. He can see the same confederate flags that you showed earlier in the program, the same Auschwitz t-shirts, the same Nazi regalia that reportedly we're seeing on the crowd.

He knows who these people are. He is under no illusion. And when you incite a crowd like that and you tell them to go down to the Capitol and they go down to the Capitol and they ransacked the place and you applaud them, I think it's a pretty good argument there.

LEMON: Elie Honig, always appreciate it. Thank you, sir.

HONIG: Thanks, Don.

LEMON: So, they repeat lies and conspiracies. They push out disinformation. They tell you not to trust the truth. The pro-Trump media adding fuel to the fire, next.

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[23:50:00]

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LEMON: So, how much responsibility does right-wing media have for helping President Trump incite his supporters to storm the Capitol? Listen to the message Fox News host Tucker Carlson was sending to rioters just last night after the deadly insurrection.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TUCKER CARLSON, FOX NEWS HOST: Our new leaders will try to silence them. What happened today will be used by the people taking power to justify stripping you of the rights you were born with as an American. Your right to speak without being censored, your right to assemble, to not be spied upon, to make a living, to defend your family, most critically. We got to this sad, chaotic day for a reason. It is not your fault. It is their fault.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: Wow! You're right to bust into the Capitol. It -- it's their fault. They're not adults.

Brian Stelter, CNN's chief media correspondent, the anchor of "Reliable Sources," and he joins me now.

Brian, for months now, right-wing media outlets have been feeding viewers lies and conspiracy theories about the election. Was yesterday's riot an inevitable consequence, all this information that's been fed to his supporters?

BRIAN STELTER, CNN CHIEF MEDIA CORRESPONDENT: When people, millions of people are told lies for weeks and months at a time, you do experience a form of radicalization. I know that word. The R word is usually applied in other countries. We think about radicals being terrorists in the Middle East. But radicalization is a concept that applies here, in America, today.

Some of our fellow Americans have been radicalized. Not everybody at the Capitol yesterday. But the people who committed crimes and looted the Capitol, they have been radicalized. And you have to look at the people who are enabling, who are aiding and abetting this behavior, people that are stars of right-wing media that have been fanning these flames for months and for years, Don.

LEMON: Are they standing by the president? When you talk about stars of right-wing media, Sean Hannity, Tucker Carlson, Rush Limbaugh, to name a few, are they standing by the president after what we saw yesterday?

STELTER: They are still making excuses for his behavior, trying to minimize his behavior, trying to minimize the behavior of his supporters. I think what we are seeing is a slow return to reality, in some corners of the right-wing media, some acknowledgments that Biden will, actually, be president in two weeks.

But so much of this chaos and hate in the last two months could have been avoided if right-wing media stars were more honest with their audiences in November and in December. Pro-Trump media is partly at fault here.

And this media system is not going away. This media apparatus, although, you know, some viewers might tire of it, others actually go deeper down the rabbit hole. Think of it as a form of quicksand, Don, that people end up sinking deeper into.

LEMON: Mm-hmm. Right-wing media and even some Republicans almost immediately began making these baseless claims that pro-Trump mob was actually Antifa. They're still not reckoning with the real problem here.

STELTER: Right. It's always an attempt to come up with an alternative story, an alternative reality. That is the story of the Trump years, unfortunately, this war on truth. So that if you are a Trump supporter, you don't want to believe that some of your fellow patriots were actually up there destroying property. So instead, you tell yourself it was left-wing radicals, it was Antifa.

There is a lot of double-standard talk in right-wing radio and TV, a lot of excuses being made, a lot of conspiracy theories being spread. What it is, Don, is a big lie on top of all the big lies we have been hearing in the last two months.

LEMON: Yeah.

STELTER: The big lies about Trump winning, about voter fraud being rampant.

[23:55:00] STELTER: Now, the new big lie is that actually this was all maybe somebody else's fault. We don't know for sure, but even just sowing that kind of doubt the way that Tucker Carlson has done, Laura Ingraham has done, it is deeply damaging because then people come away not knowing what to believe.

LEMON: Yep.

STELTER: The question becomes, who is going to drag people back to reality? We know it's not President Trump. Will it be the Murdochs? I mean, the Murdoch Wall Street Journal Editorial Board tonight said it will be best for Trump to resign.

LEMON: And go away quietly.

STELTER: That is really remarkable (INAUDIBLE).

LEMON: Yeah, and go away quietly.

STELTER: Fox News isn't saying that.

LEMON: But there is always a boogie man and there is a pattern. You know, acorn. It was the new Black Panthers. Now, it's Antifa. So, you know, it's a pattern.

Thank you, Brian. I got to run.

STELTER: Thanks.

LEMON: It's the end of the program. Thank you so much. I will see you later. Thanks for watching, everyone. Our coverage continues.

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