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Don Lemon Tonight

Biden Pledges Wartime Effort to Combat Pandemic; President Biden's COVID-19 Priorities; Vaccine Rollout a Dismal Failure; Dr. Anthony Fauci, Letting the Science Speak; McConnell Wants to Delay Trump Impeachment Trial; Democrats Frustrated as Fight Over Filibuster Stalls Power-Sharing Agreement in Senate; President Biden Pledges to Address Racial Inequality; About 120 People were Charged in Capitol Attack New Arrests; QAnon in Disarray Over Day of Reckoning That Never Came. Aired 11p-12a ET

Aired January 21, 2021 - 23:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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DON LEMON, CNN HOST: On his first full day in office, President Joe Biden moving to tackle the deadly COVID-19 pandemic head-on. Calling his administration response, a wartime undertaking, but saying help is on the way. Today marks one year since the first COVID patient in the United States was identified. The pandemic now claiming almost 410,000 American lives. Biden saying the U.S. death toll will likely top half a million next month.

Also, tonight, Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell seeking to delay Donald Trump's impeachment trial until February. The question is will Democrats go along if they get some of their demands in return.

Joining me now is CNN's White House correspondent John Harwood, and our medical analyst Dr. Jonathan Reiner. Gentlemen, hello to both of you. John let's start with you, a pandemic killing thousands of Americans a day. An economic catastrophe, deep division and the list goes on. Our country is facing serious problems and is all now squarely in President Biden's lap. How is he dealing with his really first full day, but first week?

JOHN HARWOOD, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, he's trying to generate a sense of momentum both through his rhetoric, through some crisp action by his staff through some executive order that he's signing on COVID in particular. He's creating the pandemic testing board. He signed that order today. That's something he's talked about for some time.

Also says he will use the defense production act to try to ramp up manufacturer of vaccines and get that program going. He's going to impose a mask mandate on federal lands, that's not going to have a dramatic effect, but it can have some incremental effect, but the president really racing against time.

Because the things he needs to do to really move the ball forward to make progress on this vaccine distribution, are one, to get the COVID relief package that he's got through the Congress. He's got to figure out whether he can get Republican votes for that and move it through normal legislative channels, or whether he's going to do it with Democrats only through a special procedure called reconciliation.

And he is also going to take some time for the defense production act, steps that he's taking to actually generate the increase in vaccine production that he needs. Getting the vaccine, the pandemic under control is critical to everything this president wants to do including getting the economy going again as well.

LEMON: Dr. Reiner, let's talk about the CDC updating their COVID vaccine guidance tonight. Saying people can get their second dose up to six weeks after their first and can mix and match, you know, the kinds of doses they get or the kind of medication on which company they get it from in exceptional situations. Will people be skeptical of this update coming all of the sudden when the vaccines are you know, running out now, when the guidance had been different before?

JONATHAN REINER, CNN MEDICAL ANALYST: I'm skeptical of it. Look, there's no data that supports it. And I think the changing guidelines now, are basically potentially anticipating maybe some shortages going forward.

I'm not that really worried about vaccine availability going forward. Unless we're really surprised, sometime in the next couple of weeks. Johnson and Johnson is going to apply for an emergency use authorization for their one dose vaccine. And that's going to be a big boost of supply.

It's also going to be logistically much easier to administer, just require refrigeration and only one shot. So, I think we're going to have the vaccine, I'm more concerned about our sort of last mile infrastructure and being able to get the shots into arms, changing vaccines into vaccinations. And that's what we really need to do.

I think the Biden administration needs to be more ambitious. We're almost giving a million shots a day now. We need to get 2 million shots a day. That's, if you want to get back to normal by summer you want the economy to improve, you want to take a bite out of this enormous death toll. We need to do that, look things are getting better in the country.

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Our case rates are dropping dramatically in this country. We spoke about this last week, they are on equivocally on the way down. Hospitalizations are dropping as well. So, there's a sweet spot now. There are these more contagious variance that are you know, in this country, we need to get vaccines into arms before those become dominant. Now is the time to do it.

LEMON: I'm glad, thank you for saying that. I also want to get your reaction to Dr. Anthony Fauci, I was actually surprised at his reaction that he said it out loud, right. Describing what it's like to work with a new administration, here it is and then we'll talk.

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DR. ANTHONY FAUCI, DIRECTOR, NATIONAL INSTITUTE OF ALLERGY AND INFECTIOUS DISEASES: I take no pleasure at all in being in a situation of contradicting the president, so it was really something that you didn't feel that you can actually say something and there wouldn't be any repercussions about it. The idea that you can get up here and talk about what you know, what the evidence, what the science is and know that's it, let the scientists speak. It is somewhat of a liberating feeling.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: Look that is an extraordinary statement at the first COVID briefing and in over two months. There's so much work to be done, but is the medical community feeling more optimistic tonight after seeing the experts back front and center?

REINER: I mean, first of all, it's refreshing to hear, Dr. Fauci just say it the way it is. And to hear him brief the public and just -- the public can handle the truth, you know, unlike the last administration's feeling that the public couldn't handle the truth. The public can handle the truth.

But what Dr. Fauci and his colleagues learned, is that if you said something that's veered away from the party line, you can get sidelined. At the end of February, just as the pandemic was starting, there are only 14 cases in the United States at the time.

Dr. Nancy Messonnier told a briefing that disruptions were likely, and that community spread was going to happen. You never heard from her again. And we saw that play out over and over again, we saw Dr. Redfield (inaudible) back to revise some of his statements after he veered from party lines. So, now this is a breath of fresh air.

LEMON: Yes. Gentlemen thank you. I'll see you soon. I appreciate it. I want to turn now to former Nixon White House Counsel, John Dean. John, good evening to you. Good to see you. The Senate minority leader Mitch McConnell wants to delay the start of the impeachment trial until February, to give Trump's lawyers time to prepare. Democrats aren't dismissing the idea. Who does this benefit the most?

JOHN DEAN, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: I actually think it benefits the Democrats, as time passes more information is coming out. What we don't know where the real connections between Trump and what he knew about the operation or the conspiracy, they've been building for weeks where they actually plan the takeover of the Capitol.

I think with time, they're going to find that there was a much more direct tie between the information Trump had and it is just out there, speaking rather generically about rallying the troops and getting them to march down Pennsylvania Avenue. It's going to become more incriminating in other words.

LEMON: Interesting. So, the violent mob storming our Capitol now, you know, fresh in everyone's minds. If the trial is delayed too long, do you think the outrage is going to fade? DEAN: I don't, the witnesses are going to be sitting right in the

Senate. They remember what they went through. And they are the only people account in the trial are the jury right there in the Senate. They are judges and juries, in this instance. So, they know what happened and it-'s how the case is built as it becomes more damaging for Trump, the stronger the cases are going to become.

There is a question of whether there are some key witnesses that might be involved. And Don, there's also the possibility that this trial could be done before it goes to the full Senate, before a special impeachment committee. This has been done with judges, we have a former president, there's no reason he has to have a full Senate trial. So there is room in the rules to do this in a pre-trial committee level than take it to the full Senate.

LEMON: So, let's talk this, who Trump has hired, Butch Bowers, a lawyer from South Carolina, hired him for his defense. He'll likely have to deal with more and more videos like this one emerging daily. I got one, I want to play it, but I have to warn you there is profanity, here it is.

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UNKNOWN: You are outnumbered. There is a (EXPLETIVE DELETED) of us out there and we you know, (inaudible).

UNKNOWN: We were invited here. We were invited by the president of the United States.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: So, John, to your point. There is more evidence coming out and then there are more people being arrested and we've start learning about more of the suspects and what have you, is this going to complicate Trump's defense do you believe, right?

DEAN: It, couldn't. I'm not sure he has the right lawyer, one of the mistakes Nixon made is he brought in an outsider, who didn't really know Washington. For everything I'd been able to dig out about Mr. Bowers. He doesn't have really real Washington experience. He was connected with the Department of Justice back in 2008 in the civil rights division for some voting matter. But he doesn't really know his way around Washington, and that's going to hurt the president.

LEMON: All right. John Dean, thank you.

So, it seems like Mitch McConnell is telling Democrats I'll block you now, unless you promise to let me block you later. Is he holding the Senate hostage?

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LEMON: So tonight, Democrats are technically the majority party in the Senate and New York's Chuck Schumer is the majority leader. But Dems don't have control, yet thanks to the maneuverings of Senator Mitch McConnell. The GOP leader who now is technically minority leader but still wielding a lot of power. So, one major sticking point, an agreement on the use of the filibuster.

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So, let's discuss now with our senior political analysts, plural, John Avlon and Ron Brownstein. Good to see you gents. John, so Democrats can't take full control of the Senate until they reach an agreement with Republicans over how things operate.

The Minority Leader, Mitch McConnell is insisting Schumer reaffirmed the filibuster, but the filibuster won't go away. So, so far, Senate Democrats are refusing to buckle to the demands, is McConnell holding the Senate hostage? What is this?

JOHN AVLON, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, in terms of things going forward, he sure is. Look, you know, Democrats don't want to give away that option, if Republicans are going to be as obstructionist as they've been in the past. That set, the Senate is not a simple majority body like the House. And you've already got two Democrats in the center, Manchin and Kyrsten Sinema, who say they don't want to get rid of the filibuster.

So, the issue is whether you're going to take that tool off the table entirely and whether you are going to say it's our intention to keep the Senate as it is. But we're going to go back to the president, the last time was 50/50 which didn't make a firm commitment on this issue. It has been blown up for judges in the past. There's a lot of bad faith that made upon whether to reason together, but Democrats (inaudible), why would we give away this option to Mitch McConnell, when he's now the minority?

LEMON: So, let me get this straight Ron, McConnell is going to block control for the Dems until they agreed to promise to uphold the rule that would allow him and the Republicans to block anything else that they want to block? I mean, do I have that right?

RON BROWNSTEIN, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST, AND SENIOR EDITOR OF THE ATLANTIC: Yeah you do, that's a very good way to put it. First of all, filibuster as I understand it, there is not a president for filibuster in the organizing resolution of the Senate the way that McConnell is now threatening here. You know, basically blocking the majority from even organizing and thus holding everything up that way.

Second, even if Democrats somehow agreed to this. There is no way that it can be binding. I mean, as he and McConnell know. I mean, they can later come back and change it. So why is he doing? He's doing it to make a statement here to kind of show his power and to kind of force Democrats to back down.

And you know, I was there in 2009 when he said to my colleague at National Journal at the time, Major Garrett, that his principal goal, McConnell's he's principal goal, legislative goal was to make Barack Obama a one term president. And if you kind of look at this maneuvering plus his speech today, you know, criticizing Biden's initial actions. It kind of gives you the sense that he may be heading down that same road again. LEMON: Ron, the Majority Leader Chuck Schumer hasn't even said if he

would attain the filibuster rule, but he doesn't want to rule it out. Do you think Democrats are thinking back to the days when Republicans as you mentioned obstructed Obama, that every step? And do they really have any recourse other than just to stick to their guns right now?

BROWNSTEIN: No, certainly they have no recourse other than, I mean, there's no way they're going to let Mitch McConnell decide the rules under which the Senate operates, as a minority leader. But this issue of the filibuster, probably cannot be put off for two years.

It's going to come to a head, initially on, you know, Biden's goal as I wrote today, the White House goal on the initial rescue plan on COVID is to try to do this to regular order to get 10 Republicans to vote for it in the Senate and break a filibuster.

But if they can't, they have the option on something like that of what's called reconciliation, where they can do it just by majority rule. The problem they've got, is that everything else doesn't have that.

The way this is really going to come to a head, Don, is on the racial equity agenda, a new voting rights act. Police reform, democracy reform, HR1, immigration reform, all of those issues are likely to pass the House and then stack up in the Senate, if the filibuster has maintained.

And I think the pressure within the Democratic coalition allowing Mitch McConnell to use what President Obama called a Jim Crow relic to block a new voting rights act, or police reform. I don't see how Chuck Schumer and Joe Biden go back to the African American community after their role in creating these Democratic majorities. To say sorry guys, we did the best we could, but we got to have 10 more Democratic Senators to do this.

LEMON: Oh my gosh, that said John, I mean, some Democrats are saying that we won the Senate we get the gavels. I heard what Ron said, but can they just wait it out? Or do you think that they have options here?

AVLON: Look, I mean, this is as narrow as it gets. This is a 50/50 split, and it's the tie breaker through Vice President Kamala Harris that gives the Democrats control. That said, you know, the whole point and Ron is exactly right above personal reconciliation. Joe Biden wants to do things around regular rule. You've got a president who's got more legislative experience and loyalty to the Senate than any president since Lyndon Johnson.

But it's going to take Republicans and Democrats showing they can reason together. If Republicans are going to do the instinctive obstruction, that define their role in the Obama years.

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Democrats are going to throw that out the first in they get, but the best thing they can do, it seems to be now, especially given the fact you've got two Democrats who don't want to give up the filibuster. To say look, let's try to work together, but we're not going to take it off the table. Hold it in reserve if they revert to those obstructionist ways.

Because the filibuster was never supposed to be thrown down at everything, like they did under Obama blocking nominee after nominee after nominee. More Obama nominees were blocked by Mitch McConnell and co, than had been blocked up to that point in U.S. history. So we have got an abusive impulse.

LEMON: Devious.

BROWNSTEIN: Remember what Obama said, once the filibuster was only used to block rights for people who look like me.

AVLON: That's true.

LEMON: Wow. That is some sinister stuff. I mean OK, thank you both. I'll see you soon. President Biden wants to unite the country, but not everyone in Washington agrees with on what that means actually. The newly elected DNC chair weighs in. Plus, at least 120 people charge in the Capitol riot.

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REP. NANCY PELOSI (D-CA): If people did aid and abet, there will be more than just comments from their colleagues here. There will be prosecution, if they aided and abetted an insurrection in which people died.

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LEMON: President Biden making it clear, addressing racial equality is a major priority in the first days of his administration. He's already rescinded the Trump administration 1776 commission and he revoke the Trump executive order that limited diversity and inclusion training in federal agencies. Biden also directly addressing the threat of white supremacy in his inaugural address, a threat he says must be eliminated.

Joining me now is Democratic National Committee Chair, Jaime Harrison. Jamie, thank you for joining, I appreciate it. By the way, congratulations on your chairmanship of the DNC.

We're seeing history made this week as, you know, as I'm talking to you right now, history was made. Kamala Harris sworn in as V.P. Two Democratic Senators from Georgia sworn in, black man, a Jewish man, big progress. But clearly, we've also seen that there is a huge problem with racism and division. So, what do you think is needed next?

JAMIE HARRISON, DEMOCRATIC NATIONAL COMMITTEE CHAIR: Yeah, well I think we need Joe Biden. You know, Joe Biden, I was talking with to somebody the other day and they asked, well, do you think Joe Biden is going to be a good president? You know Joe Biden didn't win the presidency for a few times. But my grandma always taught me, Don that sometimes we have a plan as individuals and the lord has a plan for us. And that sometimes those plans are the same, but we need to follow his plan.

I think that this is the moment for Joe Biden, he was made for this moment. Because we need someone who's empathetic, we need someone who has gone through hell and gone back. But we need someone who also understands the power of joy and bringing folks together. Joe Biden knows that. He understands that and that's why he is the president for this moment.

LEMON: But he's got to reach the other side, he's got to reach the other side who has not been -- to this point willing to even accept that he is the actual president of the United States. That is a tall order Jamie?

HARRISON: Well, it is a tall order, but look at the speech that he gave yesterday. He didn't talk about himself. He didn't talk about Donald Trump, he talked about America and bringing us all together. And he has been consistent, and it has almost been like a broken record.

Even I remember, when he came here during the presidential primary in South Carolina, folks were saying, well, Joe Biden is saying that same old thing about unity and folks coming together. Well he has been like a broken record time and time again talking about this issue of bringing this country together and healing us.

And you're right, that some people don't want to heal at this moment in time. But that's ok, you take the time that you need, but eventually you are going to hand somebody with open arms who is saying, let's move forward together.

LEMON: OK. I want you to help me understand this because, you mentioned his speech and what he talked about. And I'm not sure how people got this out of the speech, but he's condemning white supremacy in that inaugural address, but some Republicans are twisting his rebuke into an attack against the entire GOP, this is Senator Rand Paul, listen.

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SEN. RAND PAUL (R-KY): If you read his speech and listen to it carefully, much of it is thinly veiled innuendo, calling us white supremacist, calling us racist, calling us every name in the book, calling as people who don't tell the truth.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: I did not hear Joe Biden say that. What I heard was him condemning white supremacy. If Republicans like Rand Paul can't see that, number one that this is a problem and not a personal attack. What does that say about them? HARRISON: Well, listen I think Rand Paul, needs to listen to what Joe

Biden is talking about. And listen, I would hope that every single Senator in the United States Senate, every single Congressman in the U.S. House, could all condemn white supremacy, because that is not who we are as a nation. This is about the greatest asset that we have as a country, is our diversity. And we all need to feel like we are a part of this American experiment that is taking place right now.

Joe Biden is about bringing us together, but at the same time he is very clear that if you are a white supremacist, you have no place in this America. And I agree with him. And I would hope that all of our leaders could agree with him as well.

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LEMON: Excuse me for interrupting, but do you think that's a coordinated effort? Because I've heard that from others, not just Rand Paul, but I've heard it from other GOP leaders and coming from conservative media as well.

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LEMON: Do you think that something they got together as a talking point, so that they could win over some of those people, the actual people who went and storm the Capitol, or some of the Trump voters who may believe that way?

HARRISON: It could be a talking point, but this is a thing, Don, and hopefully they have learned this, and another lesson from the grandma, you play with fire, you will get burnt. So stop fanning the flames of the hatred and division in this country. Find ways to bring people together.

You know -- and these people know Joe Biden. They know that what is in his heart and what he is trying to do as a nation. And what they should all be trying to do as well, bringing us all together so that we can move forward and address the challenges that people are really dealing with right now: COVID, unemployment, how this economy is cratering.

Those are the things that people in the states, in the small towns, in these rural communities are really struggling with. And I would hope that our senators would stop thinking of running for the next presidential election and start focusing on the people that they took an oath to protect and defend and actually serve. That is what Joe Biden is trying to do.

LEMON: Jaime --

HARRISON: Focus on the people, not on politics.

LEMON: Jaime, you're a black man. You ran a very competitive race in the Deep South. My question is, what did you learn and what will make Democrats more competitive in red states and rural states?

HARRISON: Well, the thing I learned, and I think we all learned is you got to organize, organize, and organize. We were able to make history in this last election and this past January a few weeks ago, when we Democrats were able to win not one but two special elections in Georgia. We now have an African American and Jewish-American senators both representing Georgia, and they won convincingly.

That is because of Stacey Abrams, LaTosha Brown and so many grassroots organizations, the Georgia Democratic Party. And they organized. They went into communities. And they didn't just parachute in two months before the election. They stayed in those communities addressing the issues that people care about.

The success for the Democratic Party is that we have to transform ourselves from a political organization, and we have to become a community organization, embedded in these communities, helping people address the issues they're dealing with right now.

LEMON: I am glad that you mentioned LaTosha Brown. She doesn't often get the credit that she should for organizing and registering a ton of people to vote and --

HARRISON: Yes.

LEMON: -- getting them out to the polls actually to vote.

Thank you, Jaime. Good to see and congratulations again.

HARRISON: Thank you, my friend. Take care now.

LEMON: So, you heard Jaime Harrison. There are still a lot of work to be done in this country to combat hatred and racism.

I recently wrote a book that I truly believe could help. It is "This is the Fire: What I Say to My Friends About Racism." It is full of honest, fearless conversations that I have with my own friends and family. So, pre-order it now wherever you can get books, and I hope you will check it out.

Next, more arrests in the Capitol riots, including a leader of a group Trump famously told to stand back and stand by. We are going to bring you the latest.

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LEMON: As of tonight, more than 120 defendants have been charged with federal crimes in the deadly insurrection at the Capitol two weeks ago. And as the investigation heats up, hundreds more are expected to be charged.

Let's discuss with John Scott-Railton, a cybersecurity researcher at The Citizen Lab at the University of Toronto, and CNN's counterterrorism analyst Philip Mudd. Gentlemen, good to see you. Thanks so much. Phil, I'm going to start with you. One hundred and twenty defendants are all facing criminal charges over this Capitol riot. Are investigators strategically going after those with the most serious crimes or those who were leaders within the mob?

PHILIP MUDD, CNN COUNTERTERRORISM ANALYST: Going after --

LEMON: Can you hear me, Phil?

MUDD: Yeah, I got you clear.

LEMON: OK.

MUDD: Yeah, a couple of things that I'd be thinking about here. First, there is a ton of digital media out there that is stuff from the Capitol and the stuff that the FBI has picked up from cameras on the Capitol, stuff that people have sent in, everything from ex-boyfriends and ex-girlfriends, the stuff that was picked up by people's Facebook pages.

The first thing they're going to go after is stuff they can prosecute. They want people off the streets partly as deterrent to people who might be showing up down the road, and they want to pick those people off the streets.

LEMON: So --

MUDD: Second --

LEMON: Let me ask you, Phil, because I wasn't sure if you could hear me. Are they just going after everybody that they see on video, does it matter, the status of what they did, but whoever they can get to first?

MUDD: I think they go after the people who it is easiest to make a case against first and who they can find.

LEMON: OK.

MUDD: The tougher thing, Don, and the most interesting thing is the people they're going to eventually go after, not only who are not charged now, but people who they will charge in the future for conspiracy for a couple of reasons.

It is tough, Don, to make a conspiracy case. It is a lot tougher than looking at a video and saying that you went into the Capitol, you trespassed. That is a misdemeanor violation. They can give -- a conspiracy proving that people went in with the intent to do what they did is a much different case.

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MUDD: That is also a 20-year case in federal court. That is a big deal. The last thing I'd say, Don, the most interesting thing, I think, is going after these groups like the Three Percenters, like the Oath Keepers with conspiracy chargers, because down the road, are they going to go after these groups before they do something and say, we see that you are planning, we see that there is a conspiracy in a state or against the federal government?

We are going to make conspiracy charge before you actually reach the territory in a place like the U.S. Capitol. I think that's interesting. I'm not sure that would've happened three weeks ago.

LEMON: So John, in Florida, the Proud Boys leader, Joseph Biggs, now facing charges related to organizing violent members of the group to march on the U.S. Capitol. Bigs is telling his followers on Parler to be blending in, with what they wore.

The FBI also believes that he wore an earpiece and had a walkie talkie device for communication the day of that attack. What do you know about him?

JOHN SCOTT-RIALTON, SENIOR RESEARCHER, THE CITIZEN LAB: Yeah, well, you see that discussion of the walkie talkies and the earpiece throughout that affidavit. He's interesting. He shows up early doing kind of like a group picture, the Proud Boys contingent did in front of the Capitol. And then later, he makes an entrance, and that shows up in the affidavit, too.

He's not wearing the traditional Proud Boys colors, but he does have walkie talkie as he makes his way to the Capitol. At one point, looks at the camera, one of a million of pieces of social media that came out, and said, this is awesome.

Now, he told a British tabloid recently that he was just in there to visit the restroom. But I think we'll see about that. It's pretty clear that the FBI is looking at the fact that the Proud Boys who were there were wearing squiggly earpieces and communications gear as a way to try to show that they were probably in communication. That is not something to do for a normal protest or a walk in the park.

LEMON: So, Phil, let me ask you then. If you -- you know, he said he was there to use a restroom or maybe he was just of, you know, ushered in or pushed in with the crowd. But if you hear him saying, you know, giving orders and he has an earpiece, does that show premeditation? Does that matter in this kind of case?

MUDD: It matters, but there is a big difference between what you think and what you know and what a defense attorney is going to say. If I were a defense attorney, if I were them, I would say, look, he went to a demonstration that the commander-in-chief, the president of the United States, organized. He wanted to talk to his friend. They would like to talk on walkie talkies. They're sort of one of the U.S. Marines.

That to me, as a citizen, that would tell me they plan in advance to say we need a way to communicate. They use special communications software to do that, Don. But that's different than telling a court, as a judge or jury, that that is proof that they planned in advance. I think that's what they did. I would use it as evidence.

LEMON: Yeah. MUDD: But I'm not sure that's going to hold up in court, Don.

LEMON: Real quickly, let me ask you, because you talked about the system they used to communicate, the sophistication of this. Are you worried that they have the ability to carry out another attack like this without being detected?

MUDD: Yeah, I'm worried not about the system they used there but about encoded. That is encrypted communications that are available off the web. We had problems with those when I was at the bureau years ago, the ability in this country of people to communicate without the government watching them.

I know that makes people nervous, but once you say you want to commit an act of violence, including breaching the security at the Capitol, I want to watch you. And Don, the past 15 years, I can't, and that makes me nervous as a former investigator.

LEMON: John, quickly here, so then what is next with all this?

SCOTT-RAILTON: This is a really good question. I want to respond to the encryption thing for a second, which is, um, that evidence that there was an issue here was here long before. It wasn't in encrypted channels. It was all over the internet.

What I'm worried about is that we're going to be back in the encryption debate before we even figured out what the real failures were of organization and intelligence gathering.

I think what I'm looking at going forward is what we are seeing from the FBI, which is this focus on trying to understand the groups and the organizations that were present. What worries me is that if you look at the Oath Keepers as of today, they're putting out messages to their leaders, saying, go to ground, get off the acts, right, and prepare to bug out.

LEMON: Yeah.

SCOTT-RAILTON: Who knows if anybody is taking that seriously, but that kind of thing makes me really concern.

LEMON: Thank you, gentlemen. I appreciate it.

Confused, duped, let down. Conspiracy theorists losing faith in the lies that they believe, leaving QAnon in disarray. Stay with us.

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[23:45:00]

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LEMON: So, President Biden taking the oath of office dealt a major blow to QAnon. That conspiracy theory, believers of the outlandish theory, were waiting for President Trump to enact a plan where members of a so-called Satanic pedophilia ring in the government and in the entertainment industry would be rounded up, arrested, and possibly even executed.

That obviously did not happen, causing some QAnon believers to wonder they have been duped. Let me read some of the comments that poured into a Q message board, OK? Anyone else feeling beyond let down right now? This is pure hell, I'm going through. It honestly feels like we were sold out by Trump. I feel robbed. Filled with grief and anger, in the time we need Trump and Q the most. They both shut up and left.

So joining me now is CNN business reporter Donie O'Sullivan and Chloe Colliver, the head of Digital Policy and Strategy for the Institute for Strategic Dialogue.

[23:50:00]

LEMON: It is amazing to listen, to watch, and to hear some of these comments. Thank you both for joining.

So, Donie, Joe Biden is president. The storm never came. Now, there is a reckoning happening on the Q message boards. What are you learning?

DONIE O'SULLIVAN, CNN REPORTER: Yeah, Don, I mean, it was incredible. Even up until right before Biden was inaugurated, a lot of QAnon followers still believe that Trump was going to implement martial law and was going to use the military to stop Biden from being sworn in.

And in the early hours of inauguration day morning, we were out doing live overnight coverage, and we met a Trump supporter who was streaming live on YouTube. He believed that conspiracy theory. He believed that Biden was not going to be sworn in. And we caught up with him after -- yesterday afternoon after Biden became president. Have a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

O'SULLIVAN: Do you feel like you've been duped, that you've been tricked, that you've been fooled in some way here?

WILLIAM WIETING, TRUMP SUPPORTER: Actually, no. The way I felt was when I saw -- you know, I was waiting up until a minute that he said, I, Joe Biden, I'm watching him walk up, I'm thinking to myself, my life is about to completely change, because I've been saying I'm either a conspiracy theorist or I'm a prophet.

O'SULLIVAN: Do you think maybe you were wrong with Joe Biden being sworn in, you might be wrong about the whole election rigging thing?

WIETING: No. I'm convinced the election was a fraud.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

O'SULLIVAN: And so that's the issue there, Don, right? I mean, he can see that he was duped by one conspiracy theory, but he insists on continuing to believe the Stop the Steal, the election rigging conspiracy. And also, he believes, by the way, that it wasn't Trump supporters who were responsible for the violent insurrection two weeks ago, that it was in some left-wing activists.

LEMON: He said -- he was going to say -- either he is a conspiracy theorist or a prophet. I'm not sure which conclusion he came to. Did he ever tell you?

O'SULLIVAN: Um, I --

(LAUGHTER)

O'SULLIVAN: He was very -- he was very confused yesterday.

LEMON: Yeah, I'm sure. Chloe, you know, this is an -- is this an opportunity to bring some of these people back into the light when truth may be dawning on them? How do you do that, if that's possible?

CHLOE COLLIVER, HEAD OF DIGITAL POLICY AND STRATEGY, INSTITUTE FOR STRATEGIC DIALOGUE: I mean, we can only hope that there is an opportunity for that. As Donie mentioned, it's a pretty chaotic landscape in terms of reactions to this in the QAnon community writ large. And inside that group that is confused, disappointed, and angry, I think we're going to have to watch for two different reactions.

One of them is what you mentioned, which is people who maybe have a way to potentially exit from this conspiracy theory movement, it will require enormous patience. A lot of work from friends and family probably for those who have friends and families around them, to have long, careful conversations, non-judgmental conversations to try and help them come out.

Part of the problem with that is that these kinds of movements aren't just ideologies. They also become the social structure of these people. By moving out or exiting, they lose all of that. It can be a difficult process.

But the other thing we have to worry about is a lot of those people who are angry or disillusioned may turn even more extreme. And there are huge risks of radicalization to extremism, for example, not just conspiracy beliefs.

Among these communities, we've seen active recruitment in white supremacist channels, in acceleration channels, militia channel, to try and target MAGA types and QAnon types in platforms and now in spaces that are much more connected, these more extreme channels.

LEMON: Let me ask you. Some of these followers still are refusing to see that they have even been conned. They're posting things like this. I'm going quote here. "What would be the point of giving up right now? I agree. I'm keeping the faith. Stop crying into your popcorn and keep fighting for the truth. This, this is not the end."

And some even threatening violence. "The only fighting that matters from here on out is done with a gun." What happens to these people? Is there a real chance that they can resort to violence, Chloe?

COLLIVER: Sadly, I think there is a real chance of that. We're facing very real domestic terror threat from here in the U.S. that we need to get ahead of in terms of research, policy, law enforcement.

The overlap between QAnon and extremism is a fragile and delicate one. It's not fair to say that that's an exact match. But when we've seen these kinds of channels from extremist groups and terrorist groups trying to reach out to potentially disillusioned QAnon audiences, it does present a real risk of increasing the audience, say the Proud Boys, acceleration groups who seek to do violence against government or against civilians. So it's definitely something that we're going to have to watch out for very seriously.

LEMON: Donie, let's talk about Ron Watkins. He is one of the most prominent QAnon link figures, and he wrote this online. He said we need to keep our chins up and go back to our lives as best we are able. We have a president sworn in and it is our responsibility as citizens to respect the Constitution regardless of whether or not we agree with the specifics or details.

[23:55:07]

LEMON: Go back to their lives, respect the Constitution? What is the reaction been, Donie? These are the people who believe the wildest things. These are the true believers.

O'SULLIVAN: Yeah, that's a lot of gaslighting there from Ron Watkins, the guy who has been pushing absolute nonsense, especially since Election Day about the election being rigged.

Look, President Trump has left this town, but a lot of things have not changed, right? There are a lot of people out there who want to believe all of this stuff still. There is still a lot of -- Facebook is still essentially a cesspool of misinformation. There is that whole right-wing ecosystem of Trump supporting media, the OAN, the Newsmax, and certain elements of Fox News.

So, you know, we may have a new administration, but this problem is going to stay. I do fear that those few QAnon supporters, followers that we're seeing who realized they have been duped and might see the light, they may be just the minority.

LEMON: Wow. Donie, Chloe, always fascinating to talk to both of you. Thank you so much.

O'SULLIVAN: Thanks.

LEMON: Thanks for watching, everyone. Our coverage continues.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)