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Don Lemon Tonight

Man Charged with Having Five Bombs, Making Threats to Democrats; Permanent Fencing Around the Capitol; GOP Largely Silent Over Marjorie Taylor Greene; GOP Bowing to Trump While DHS Warns of Extremist Threats; Trump and Allies Target Liz Cheney After Her Impeachment Vote; Republicans Stick With Trump; President Biden is to Move Forward with COVID-19 Legislation With or Without Republican Support; More People Were Charged in Connection with Capitol Riot; White Supremacy in the Capitol Insurrection; Actress Cicely Tyson Dies at Age 96. Aired 11p-12a ET

Aired January 28, 2021 - 23:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[23:00:00]

DON LEMON, CNN HOST: Other messages indicate rioters believe the big lie that Trump won the elections. Among the suspects' possessions -- this is real -- a white privilege card. I want you to take a look at this. It's a fake white privilege credit card, subtitle, Trump's everything. The cardholder, Scott Free, with two Ts, Scott Free is actually spelled with one t, but you know, two t's on that card.

That one piece of evidence an insight into the man's state of mind that he can get away with anything because of his skin color. His lawyer saying this to CNN, this was a guy simply following the advice and the commentary of the president of the United States.

So, tonight the acting chief of the Capitol police proposing security fencing erected around the Capitol in the wake of the deadly insurrection stay up permanently. Also, police say a man arrested near the Capitol was armed with a gun and 20 rounds of ammunition and a list of lawmaker's names.

The House Speaker Nancy Pelosi responding to concerns about security by members of Congress saying the enemy is within the House of Representatives. With all this, President Biden pushing for bipartisan support to pass his massive nearly $2 trillion COVID relief plan.

Let's get right to it. CNN's White House correspondent is John Harwood and our senior political analyst is John Avlon. How will we distinguish? I guess I'll have to say last names. Good evening to both of you. Mr. Harwood, President Biden trying to restore access to health care, pushing hard behind the scenes to get a COVID relief package through on the heels of dismal economic news. Where do negotiations stand tonight?

JOHN HARWOOD, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, they've got ways to go. There's a lot of details that are going to get changed, and it's unclear what the composition of the final coalition behind the legislation will be. But one thing that both the Biden White House, Democrats in Congress, their outside allies are increasingly confident of is that they're going to get a very large bill. If not precisely Joe Biden's $1.9 trillion something close to that.

And that potentially has a huge impact on the country and on the Biden presidency. It will speed the end of the pandemic with the funds for vaccines and testing and all the steps needed to try to get the pandemic under control. It will sustain people who are hurting, who are jobless through the next few months while we get to the end, and it will lift the overall economy.

Economists tell me, Don, that the passing of this bill or something close to this bill will take the 4 percent growth we expect for this year and turn it into 6 percent growth, that it will restore the U.S. economy to full employment by the end of 2022 instead of 2023. That is a tremendous upside for Joe Biden and for Democrats as they look ahead to 2022 mid-term elections in which their majorities are going to be threatened.

LEMON: So, Mr. Avlon, you next. So, we're living in two different universes, right. The Biden team trying to focus on facts and science and Republicans are giving key committee assignments to conspiracy theorists like Marjorie Taylor Greene who spouts racist and xenophobic lies. That's quite the contrast.

JOHN AVLON, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: It's as stark as it gets, and it says too much about the state of our politics today. I mean, Marjorie Taylor Greene, you know, getting a seat on the education committee when she's, you know, inflamed conspiracy theories about school shootings. You know, this person hasn't met a conspiracy theory she never liked. You know whether it's not being the 9/11 truth or QAnon and the question is what's too much?

And the actions of the Republican leadership is to say, well, you know, we really need to cool down internal dissent treating Liz Cheney and Adam Kinzinger as someone equally divisive, destructive and anti- reason, as Marjorie Taylor Greene. That's the problem. You can't keep in two ways of you party as a crazy caucus and a responsible caucus. You've got to deal with the problem in the party and they seem totally unwilling to and still afraid of Donald Trump from lame duck status at Mar-a-Lago.

LEMON: John Harwood, countless Republicans have remained silent about Greene's dangerous lies. Is it time to admit the party is more in line with Marjorie Taylor Greene and Mitt Romney, or Rob Portman or as you just mentioned Adam Kinzinger?

HARWOOD: Well, the Republican Party right now is not an optimistic party, it's not a hopeful party, it's not a party with plans to build for the future. It's a very dark party. It's consumed by negative emotion, anger, bitterness, fear. The voting base of the party are people who feel like the changes in the culture and the economy are passing them by. They're angry about it. They want to lash out. That produces a lot of conspiratorial paranoia.

[23:05:05]

That's what Marjorie Taylor Greene and people like her in the party represent. That is not what people like Rob Portman and Mitt Romney represent. And if you're going to succeed in this Republican Party, you have got to galvanize very dark emotions. They don't have much of a positive program. They have a grievance agenda. And if you don't share that agenda, you're not going to go very far in this current Republican Party.

LEMON: You're right. And especially when it comes to things like health care. Haven't had health for decades, they tried to just kill it but then no plan, John Avlon. The House Minority Leader Kevin McCarthy traveling to Florida today to meet with Trump. He's looking for Trump's help in 2022, but why didn't the GOP learn their lesson with the Georgia runoffs? I mean Trump is only out for himself.

AVLON: It's Stockholm syndrome. I mean, look. Donald Trump was disastrous for the Republican Party by any rational measures. I mean, not only they lost the Senate, they lost the presidency, they lost the House, they lost seats overall. Their base is shrinking. Trump is the only president to be impeached twice for inciting insurrection and they're still lining up to kiss the ring. And it speaks to the danger of hyper partisanship of polarization.

The party is so far off center that they're afraid they can't win elections unless they play to the crazy. And that's a real problem not just for Republicans but for our democracy, and that's what we need to deal with. You know, and frankly more Republicans should grow a spine and recognize that the people who called out inciting an insurrection should be the leaders of the party.

No one thought that Donald Trump could overturn, you know, the Bush -- the policies of the Bush presidencies, but he did. So actually, take a risk and do the right thing. You might just find it's the smart thing politically as John McCain used to say.

LEMON: Gentlemen, thank you so much. I'll see you soon.

AVLON: All right, take care, man.

LEMON: Joining me now Leon Panetta, the former defense secretary and former CIA Director. Thank you, secretary. I appreciate your time and of course your expertise in advance. There is this January 6th insurrection, the Homeland Security bulletin says that -- they say extremists are emboldened and now the Capitol police, they want permanent fencing around the Capitol. Are you worried about more attacks?

LEON PANETTA, FORMER CIA DIRECTOR AND SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: I don't think there's any questions that on January 6th we crossed the line with those who attacked the Capitol and killed and destroyed property and brought our democracy to a halt. And I think that that event could very well empower additional terrorism in the future.

LEMON: Yes. Let's talk about some of the folks who are arrested. One of them U.S. Capitol police arrested was a West Virginia man armed with a handgun and ammo. He had a stop the steal paperwork that he had a list of lawmakers on. Do lawmakers have real reason to worry?

PANETTA: Absolutely. You know, my youngest son is in Congress. He took my place in the district here on central California that I used to represent, and I worry about him because I think every member has to be concerned when there are extremists walking around with lists of names of members of Congress that they're targeting. They do need security, and I'm glad that the Capitol looks like it's doing a better job of trying to provide better security than they did on January 6th.

LEMON: Well, let's talk more about that because, listen, obviously Speaker Pelosi is concerned. She said today that the enemy is within. She says that she's referring to members of Congress who want to bring guns on the floor or who have threatened violence against other members. What does it say about where this country is right now worried about threats inside the walls of the Congress from their fellow Congress people?

PANETTA: You know, I think -- I think the American people have to be worried about just how fragile our democracy is. You know, I think all of us love our country, but we all recognize that in order -- in order for our democracy to survive, we're going to have to respect one another and listen to one another and try to stop this anger and this polarization that is breaking us apart.

And if we don't -- if we don't break this mode that we're in right now, that's not only making our government dysfunctional, it's charring away at our democracy.

[23:10:02]

I think that -- I think if we don't -- if we don't take action to deal with this, all of us that our democracy may not survive what we're seeing today.

LEMON: You know, speaking of that because this is I'm not sure what kind of territory. People say this is unchartered territory, whatever. But my colleague Jim Sciutto, he's covered international terrorism for 20 years and says that the parallels to the domestic terror threat are frightening and he points to and I quote here, radicalization online, demonization of the enemy to justify the violence, draw to a cause greater than themselves devotion to a cultish leader. That said are we doing enough to combat this threat?

PANETTA: Well, I worry about that because as a CIA Director obviously I had to deal with foreign terrorism in the shape of Bin Laden and al- Qaeda who had attacked our country. And the fact is that terrorism has some similar characteristics, usually a leader of some kind who wants to take advantage of grievances. It's usually built on a lie of some sort, and the kind of lie we saw on January 6th was that somehow the election had been stolen.

And people are encouraged to commit terror to attack the very symbols of our power. And so there are some similar characteristics here between foreign and domestic terrorism. And it means that we have to take both of these threats very seriously.

LEMON: I want to quote from the Center for Strategic and International Studies, a report that they have. The right-wing terrorist attacks caused 335 deaths in the country. Left-wing attacks caused 22 deaths. Their analysis ends in May of 2020. And we've obviously seen more violence since then. There is no question that the real threat is where this real threat is coming from all you have to do is look at the numbers and the facts.

PANETTA: There's no question that we are facing a very serious threat within our country. Just as 9/11 was a wakeup call to deal with foreign terrorism. January 6th is very much a wakeup call that we have to confront domestic terrorism. It is serious. It's on the rise.

We saw what happened on January 6th. We see what these extremists are saying and doing online. And it means that we cannot underestimate the threat that we're confronting. We've got to be ready for it. We not only have to prepare for the expected, we have to prepare for the unexpected as well.

LEMON: Secretary Panetta, always a pleasure. Thank you so much.

PANETTA: Good to talk to you.

LEMON: The GOP itching to kick Liz Cheney to the curb. Kevin McCarthy is going to Mar-a-Lago to kiss the ring. Is that what the Republican Party really wants to be?

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[23:15:00]

LEMON: The previous president focusing his political energy on targeting Liz Cheney, the third ranking House Republican who voted for his impeachment earlier this month. But one source telling CNN Trump has repeatedly questioned his Republican allies about efforts to run a primary candidate against her. Those efforts already underway in Cheney's home state of Wyoming. CNN's Lucy Kafanov has more.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

LUCY KAFANOV, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Amidst the frigid beauty, Wyoming politics are red hot and getting ugly. Wyoming is Trump country. The former president beat Joe Biden here by more than 40 points, the largest margin in any state. So, when Congresswoman Liz Cheney voted to impeach Trump, it caused immediate blow back at home.

SHELLEY HORN, STARTED CHENEY RECALL PETITION: I usually just sit here and make tutus and mind my business.

KAFANOV: Shelley Horn has never thought of herself as political but after Cheney's vote, she started a petition to get her out of office.

HORN: I'm just amazed. They get 52,000 and it's been seen by 586,000 people.

KAFANOV: Cheney describes her vote as a matter of conscience. Horn calls it a betrayal.

HORN: You just can't go -- I need to vote with my conscience. No, vote for what your people put you in there to do. You're a Republican. You're supposed to back your party regardless.

KAFANOV: A handful of GOP County committees have voted to censure Cheney, and state Senator Anthony Bouchard has already launched a 2022 campaign against her. The Wyoming GOP lashing out, saying the consensus is clear that those who are reaching out to the party vehemently disagree with Representative Cheney's decisions and actions.

Cheney's foes in Congress are also taking aim. Florida Republican Matt Gaetz is in Cheyenne rallying a support against her, positioning himself as the bearer of the Trump brand.

REP. MATT GAETZ (R-FL): If you want to prove that you have the power to defeat Liz Cheney in this upcoming election, and Wyoming will bring Washington to its knees.

KAFANOV: A source in Cheney's office dismissed the Gaetz event as a publicity stunt. Linking to this clip from HBO's the swamp. Then the Congressman talk about getting ready for a TV appearance. The source saying ahead of the visit that Gaetz can quote, leave his beauty back at home. In Wyoming the men don't wear make-up. But in Wyoming the energy industry pays the bills. Both the petroleum and mining associations have come out in support of Cheney.

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TRAVIS DETI, PRESIDENT WYOMING MINING ASSOCIATION: We need a voice in Washington to continue to defend our industry, and it's going to be more important now than it has been in the last few years because, you know, President Biden's not going to be friendly to us.

TAYLOR HANES, REPUBLICAN VOTER: I don't care anything about committee assignments. It's just Kabuki Theater.

KAFANOV: Taylor Hanes a retired doctor, cattle rancher and businessman doesn't care that Cheney's the third highest ranking Republican in the House.

HANES: In my view she's done in Wyoming. Trump's the most successful, effective president in my adult life. We're going down the Trump road, and that's where we are.

KAFANOV: With the primaries 18 months away, Cheney has time not to mention money, influence and name recognition.

NICK REYNOLDS, CAPSER STAR TRIBUNE: The Cheney's are a huge name in Wyoming. Dick Cheney was one of the people who brought the state to, you know, real national relevance.

UNKNOWN: She made the right decision.

KAFANOV: Supporters like Dona Ardery says she'll judge Cheney on the future not the past.

UNKNOWN: Give her a chance. Let's let this administration go on and see how Liz stands up and represents our people. KAFANOV: Lucy Kafanov, CNN, Cheyenne, Wyoming.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

LEMON: Lucy, Thank you very much. And joining me now is Republican strategist Sarah Longwell. Sarah, good evening to you. Thanks for joining. This isn't just Wyoming. The House minority leader went down to Florida to meet with the former president today to talk election strategy. There was a chance to you know, make-or-break, but that's not -- but they are not taking it. Why is that?

SARAH LONGWELL, STRATEGIC DIRECTOR/FOUNDER, REPUBLICAN VOTERS AGAINST TRUMP: I mean, I think the answer is that they are scared of Donald Trump, and they're scared of his voters. But they should get past that because they have -- they are putting themselves between a rock and a hard place. This impeachment vote is their off-ramp. This is their best chance to put a stake through Donald Trump's political future.

If they don't take it, Donald Trump is going to control this party for the next 10 years. And it's going to become the party of Marjorie Taylor Greene, of Lauren Gobert and people like Liz Cheney. I mean, you just look at somebody like Rob Portman or Pat Toomey, people who are retiring because they don't think there's a place for them in this party anymore.

I mean, that's not just dangerous for the Republican Party. It's an existential threat to the country to have one of the two major political parties controlled by people who are out there spreading conspiracy theories. And I'm not talking about Marjorie Taylor Greene there, I'm talking about Kevin McCarthy and Matt Gaetz and so many others in Congress who voted to object to a free and fair election, who told voters that it was stolen from them, who followed Donald Trump. And it led to a violent attack on the Capitol.

And so Republicans -- Mitch McConnell should be whipping his Senate office and telling them this is our chance, this is our chance to be done with Donald Trump and put him in the rear view. But I'm worried, I am worried that that is not the direction they're going to go.

LEMON: You know, Sarah, you've been on the show before to talk about your focus groups of Republican voters. What are you hearing from GOP voters now? Is this what they want?

LONGWELL: You know, it's interesting. I actually did just do a group of 2016 Trump voters who ran as doing a very bad job the whole time but ultimately did vote for him again in 2020. And they were split. Now, this was shortly after the attack on the Capitol, but about half of them did think that he should be impeached. I think the problem is that, you know, the further we get from the actual attack on the Capitol, the more watered down voters seem to get.

I mean, it's lost its sense of urgency. I mean, we just had earlier this week a vote on whether or not it was constitutional to actually impeach him. And only five Republicans in the Senate voted that it was. And so I'm just concerned that even though three weeks ago people like Kevin McCarthy, people like Mitch McConnell they were really distancing themselves from Donald Trump. But just as time has gone on they get more and more afraid of these voters and they start moving back towards Trump.

LEMON: Sarah, you say that for the Republican Party to fix its problem, that it has to admit the problem. Well, Republican Senator John Barrasso told CNN he is confident Trump will not be convicted in the upcoming impeachment trial. He says there's not enough Republican votes for even a censure. So what happens to the party, you know, if they are -- this party's stuck in denial. I mean, what do they do?

LONGWELL: They are stuck in denial. I mean, my biggest hope is actually the business community continues to put pressure on these Republicans and that Mitch McConnell decides they actually do need to do something about this. I wish I was more optimistic about then, (inaudible), I mean, but the fact is the reality right now is that Liz Cheney, they're trying to censure her, and they're giving Marjorie Taylor Greene committee assignments. That's the reality of where the party is today. And the whole country should be concerned about that.

[23:25:08]

LEMON: Yeah, it's just people who are operating from the worst parts of their personality and human behavior. And it's like we can get away with it, let's all just do it. It's really bizarre. Sarah, always appreciate having you on. Thank you so much.

LONGWELL: Thanks for having me.

LEMON: Thank you. President Biden facing a tough decision during his first days in office. Keep pushing ahead with a huge relief package many lawmakers are against or stick with his message of unity?

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LEMON: President Biden has only been in office for about a week and already his campaign pitch of unity is facing a test. He's trying to push through a massive COVID-19 relief bill with a $1.9 trillion price tag, but Republicans aren't onboard.

[23:30:00]

LEMON: Today, Biden making it clear that while he wants unity and bipartisanship, he is not going to just give in.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNKNOWN (voice-over): Mr. President, is Obamacare working as is, or when are you going to put out health care legislation?

JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: We've got a lot to do, and the first thing we've got to do is get this COVID package passed.

UNKNOWN (voice-over): Do you think getting COVID relief passed will require you to break it up into chunks, Mr. President?

BIDEN: No one requires me to do anything.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: So joining me now is CNN's senior political analyst David Gergen. David, pleasure to see you. Biden wants a bipartisan bill, but he has signalled a couple of times that he's not going to just give in to Republican demands, break up the bill or wait forever for the GOP to buy in. What do you think of his strategy so far?

DAVID GERGEN, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, first of all, Don, I think he's gotten off to a very good start. The tone he set in the inauguration, the competency that you've seen all the way along, especially in public events, the quality of the team he's assembled around him, and now the seriousness in the sense that they really are on top of it, one day they do environment, the next day they can do something else, all of that gives us a sense that they're stable, they're normal people but they're also in good grasp. Their competence really matters.

So having set that table, Don, I think he does have -- probably will be faced with a hard choice. He first ought, in the next days, start calling the leadership of the Congress to the White House to begin talking about the next two or three months ahead, what they're going to try to accomplish overall, and then promise them that he will get together at least once every 30 days.

He has the capacity to build really good working relationships. He knows how to do that and it plays to his strength. And then show the country he's trying hard to negotiate with the Republicans. And if they block him, if there's a reasonable case they're obstructing, he can take that to the country --

LEMON: Mm-hmm.

GERGEN: -- and say, look, I tried really hard. I gave it everything. These guys don't want to play ball. And it's too important to the country to get something passed. I'm going to go and do it on my own through reconciliation.

We've got people who are dying, nearly over 500,000 people, 500,000 deaths. We've got this new variant strain coming at us from South Africa. We are not sure we can conquer. We have huge problems. He's got to get some action. That's the way he's got to rally the country behind him and that's the way he can gain the leverage against the Republicans.

LEMON: I wonder if the Republicans just -- I mean, if they -- I don't know. They just want to see -- seem like obstructionists, which is what they seem like right now because --

GERGEN: Well, they are --

LEMON: Go on.

GERGEN: As long as they're beholden to Donald Trump and you've got guys like McCarthy going, you know, going down to Mar-a-Lago on bended knee, you know, to kiss a part of his anatomy, you know, it's got to work with his base.

And I understand they ran into a lot of flacks from people back home after the January 6 episode and there was a lot of pressure on them. But I think the Republicans are showing colors that are very, very threatening to them as a party. You had other guests on saying the same thing tonight.

LEMON: Well, let's talk more about that. The reason I said that, if they wanted to look like or just be the party of obstructionists, because the GOP is imploding.

GERGEN: Yes.

LEMON: Does all the turmoil --

GERGEN: It is.

LEMON: -- on that side of the aisle --

GERGEN: Yeah.

LEMON: -- make it easier for Biden to go and use reconciliation? Does it strengthen Democrats' hands?

GERGEN: It strengthens Democrats' hands if they are perceived as obstructionists. If they allow the Republicans to, you know, control the megaphone, control the bully pulpit, they won't look anywhere near as strong. He has to use the powers of the White House to combat Trump, and I think he can do that. I think he's well prepared to do that.

LEMON: What's interesting is, if he does this stuff and it works, he starts to get the virus under control, he starts to get more people --

GERGEN: Yup.

LEMON: -- on health care as he is trying to open -- opening it up again now with Obamacare --

GERGEN: Right.

LEMON: -- if he starts to get the economy back in order and things start to work, and yet you have the Republicans saying, no, no, no, he's not doing this, that -- that -- none of that will matter on the republican side.

GERGEN: Yeah. That's golden for Biden and his forces. If that were the scenario that unfolds, and I think there's a possibility of that happening, Biden would go into the 2022 elections, the by-elections, in a very strong position and would hold the House and the Senate and be ready then for the next, you know, 2024.

LEMON: All right.

GERGEN: Politically, that works well for him, but he's got to be -- he's got to show, Don, that he may look soft on the outside but he's tough inside.

LEMON: Yeah.

GERGEN: That he's not going to be intimidated, that he is going to insist on doing the right thing. I think he has that in him. I think we're lucky in some ways as a country.

[23:35:00]

GERGEN: Bismarck once said about the United States, you know, god loves fools, drunkards, and the United States of America.

LEMON: Right.

GERGEN: And once again, we have a person there at the forefront trying to save democracy. It is -- by the way, democracy is still under serious threat. Leon Panetta was talking about that a little earlier with you.

LEMON: Right.

GERGEN: And I agree absolutely the threat has not gone away. This could be -- if we don't do this right, if everything falls apart, Don, in the next four years, this could be our last real chance to keep a vibrant leading democracy.

LEMON: David, thank you for that. And as the old folks say, god takes care of fools and babies. We're still a young country. Thank you for that. I appreciate it.

GERGEN: Thank you.

LEMON: More than 160 people charged over the Capitol insurrection and the threats still loom over D.C. as we learn about a man arrested with a gun and 20 rounds of ammunition near the Capitol building.

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[23:40:00]

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LEMON: So, more than 160 people facing charges connected to the Capitol riot. At least 20 of the people identified are current or former members of the military and at least a half-dozen are affiliated with the Proud Boys. The FBI is still looking for tips in tracking down more of the rioters. And tonight, we're learning more about the insurrectionists among us.

Here to discuss is John Scott-Railton, a senior researcher at the Citizen Lab at the University of Toronto. He was researching Stop the Steal before organizing information on the Capitol attack. John, good to see you. Thanks so much.

Let's talk about 71-year-old Dennis Westover of West Virginia arrested near the U.S. Capitol Wednesday with a gun, 20 rounds of ammunition. The police say he was found with Stop the Steal paperwork. What do you know about him?

JOHN SCOTT-RAILTON, SENIOR RESEARCER, THE CITIZEN LAB: Well, he seems like an interesting case and frankly I think there are probably a lot of Dennis Westovers wandering around the world right now. He showed up at the Capitol with a list of lawmakers, some Stop the Steal memorabilia, but also his will and his birth certificate, and when stopped was yelling about wanting to access the Capitol.

Clearly this was a person who in some ways was troubled but probably activated by the kind of rhetoric that is still circulating around the Stop the Steal movement.

LEMON: On Wednesday, prosecutors indicted three alleged rioters, who prosecutors say are connected to the Oath Keepers. The indictment shows planning before January 6th. One of the indicted, Thomas Caldwell, says this and I quote. "Oath Keeper friends from North Carolina are taking commercial buses up early in the morning on the 6th and back same night. Person three will have the goodies in case things go bad and we need to get heavy."

There was a shocking level of preparation here. What more can you tell us?

SCOTT-RAILTON: Well, Don, this is a fascinating piece of indictment because it shows just how far back into December and even November some of these people, in this case Caldwell, Crowl and Watkins, were thinking about what they are going to do in D.C. and talking about the need potentially to kill to defend what they saw as their obligations.

There were buses coming from North Carolina. They were coming from places like Ohio and Virginia. And they seemed to be staging outside of D.C. with weapons if necessary. Very troubling. Of course, later, we know that they actually entered the Capitol and were seen inside.

LEMON: How different are the people allegedly associated with the groups like the Oath Keepers from some of the other less organized participants in the Capitol attack, John?

SCOTT-RAILTON: It's a great question. I mean, I think, you know, you have a large group of people and we're just scratching the surface of some of the strangeness that was there. But it seems pretty clear that we're learning and the prosecutors are learning that there are some people who came there with very specific plans.

And time and time again, whether it was the Proud Boys or the Oath Keepers, they were literally at the front of the crowds tussling with police, breaking in windows, pushing through doors, making their way towards lawmakers.

LEMON: But a lot of people have been arrested. So far, no lawmakers who stoked the anger of these rioters have been held accountable. And you say the people who brought their rhetoric are still activated. If Republican leaders don't correct the record, will they remain a threat?

SCOTT-RAILTON: Well, you know, I think that this is a really interesting and really difficult time for our country. I think that these people, these Westovers, are going to keep showing up at places like the Capitol but also, in many cases, state capitols which are a lot closer. He's going to pose a threat to lawmakers and by implication a threat to our democracy.

I think that many politicians are perhaps embarrassed, perhaps worried about the rhetoric that they were deploying before the inauguration. I think, though, that they're going to have to really be serious about walking back from it. Otherwise, we're going to keep seeing cases like what happened yesterday.

And in fact today, as well, at the Capitol where a man tried to push his way through police and engaged in a physical altercation with them.

LEMON: There you go. John, thank you so much. I appreciate it.

The insurrection at the Capitol put white supremacy and America on disgraceful display. And what we all saw will be burned into the memories of millions of Americans, especially people of color.

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[23:45:00]

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LEMON: So, a month ago, white supremacists, people carrying American flags, invaded the seat of our democracy and tried to overturn our election.

My next guest has some ideas about how to fight this. I want to bring in now Charles Blow, the op-ed columnist for The New York Times. He is the author of the new book, "The Devil You Know: A Black Power Manifesto." Charles, good to see you. We are going to talk all about that but I have to talk current news with you, as well, as we always do.

When you look -- good evening, by the way -- when you look at the insurrection at the Capitol --

CHARLES BLOW, AUTHOR, OP-ED COLUMNIST FOR THE NEW YORK TIMES: Good evening.

LEMON: -- white supremacist symbols, confederate battle flag, nooses erected outside the Capitol, what role did white supremacy play in the big lie and in what happened that day?

[23:50:03]

BLOW: I think white supremacy woven throughout that episode and in fact connected to the way white supremacy always behaves when it feels threatened.

How is that different from the nooses that were erected outside of courthouses all across the south when they would let mobs go into official buildings, drag out black people accused of things and lynch them? How is that not a parallel?

White supremacy always behaves violently. It always responds violently when it feels threatened. Donald Trump was a white nationalist president. He was the embodiment of white supremacy. And he was threatened. He told his supporters that he was being unfairly removed from office. And that threat to their power symbolized by him activated them.

LEMON: Uh-huh. Look, we've been talking about, you know, you talk about nooses and these confederate symbols and so on. People are looking at our history and how we celebrate it. This week in San Francisco, the Unified School District voted to rename 44 schools named after various public figures, including the former president, President George Washington, Abraham Lincoln.

Is there a difference between naming buildings after these presidents and having confederate generals as namesakes of buildings and bases?

BLOW: I think -- I have a real problem -- kind of an absolutist around the idea of owning slaves. I do not buy into the concept that it was part of the (INAUDIBLE) of the time. I always tell the people who tell me that that those people who were slaves are just as human as I am today.

Stop looking at it through the white gaze and look at it through the black one. Those people were enslaved by other human beings. They had no freedoms of their own. They -- those people who enslaved them knew where they came from, many of them went to the slave markets, which reeked of human excrement.

The ships that came in, you could smell them before they arrived. The people came out of those hulls very often unable to either lie down or sit up, depending on the ship. Their food was thrown down to them. They were treated like animals. And they engaged in that market. They made a market for an appetite to feed -- a market to be fed.

I am sorry if I do not come commiserate with people who owned slaves and I do not excuse it as being an artefact of the time.

LEMON: Let's talk about your new book. Your new book is called "The Devil You Know: A Black Power Manifesto." And in it, you write, you said, the proposition is simple. As many black descendants of the great migration as possible should return to the south from which their ancestors fled.

Talk to me more about -- I find this a fascinating idea. I know you were working on this book. Talk to me more about that idea, Charles.

BLOW: Well, it's very simple. At the end of the civil war, three southern states were majority black, Mississippi, Louisiana, and South Carolina. Another three were within four percentage points of being majority black.

If people had not migrated, and I understand why they did, but if they had not migrated and you still had the Voting Rights Act and the Civil Rights Act, black people would control up to 14 Senate seats. They would control more Electoral College votes in California and New York State combined. If they voted over that same period the way they vote now, you would not have had a Republican president in the last 50 years.

That would mean that the entire Supreme Court would look different than it does today. That would mean that Hillary Clinton had lost every single Midwestern state in 2016, she still would have won the presidency.

LEMON: 2016.

BLOW: Black people -- black people had the access to that power. And it scared the white supremacists in the south to death. And they did everything to strip them of it.

LEMON: Mm-hmm.

BLOW: Terror, intimidation, and then rewriting southern constitutions to, as they say, in their minutes, which I have read, to write white supremacy into the DNA of those states. That victory cannot be allowed to stand.

LEMON: Considering what just happened with the election for president and for senators, is Georgia already representative of what you're saying in your book?

BLOW: I called it a proving concept. I would have had no idea it was going to happen when I moved here or when I started writing a book. You start years before you actually publish, so you have no idea what's going to be happening by the time you publish.

[23:55:04]

BLOW: But it is absolutely a proven concept. There are two things that happened that changed Georgia. One was undeniably amazing, organizing by a whole bunch of groups, including the amazing Stacey Abrams. The other, however, was the result of the reverse migration.

The black population of Georgia doubled from 1990 to 2020. Black people -- the last time Georgia went democratic, it was 1992. Black people were only 25 percent of the population in 2002. Now -- 1992 -- now, they are 33 percent of the population of Georgia, and they became for the very first time the majority of the coalition that elected a senator and not just one but two.

LEMON: Well, Charles, I can't wait to read the book. "The Devil You Know: A Black Power Manifesto" by Charles Blow. Charles, good to see you. Thank you so much for appearing. Good luck with the book.

BLOW: Thank you so much. I appreciate it.

LEMON: Thank you.

So we learned tonight that actress Cicely Tyson has died at the age of 96. Cicely Tyson played former slaves, civil rights icons, sharecroppers, truth tellers, mothers and other complicated women, bringing a sense of depth, nobility, and grace to every single character.

And what a life she lived. Married to the legendary Miles Davis, a relationship she told me was tumultuous but gave her some of the most incredible moments of her life. President Barack Obama awarded Cicely Tyson with the Medal of Freedom in 2016. She was a true American.

Thank you for watching, everyone. Our coverage continues.

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