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Don Lemon Tonight

Honor Given To Officer Brian Sicknick; President Biden Pays His Respect To Officer Sicknick; Vaccines To Be Distributed In Pharmacies; Rep. Kevin McCarthy Meets With Rep. Marjorie Taylor Greene. Aired 10- 11p ET

Aired February 02, 2021 - 22:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[22:00:00]

CHRIS CUOMO, CNN HOST (on camera): The president. If you are just joining us now for the big show, "CNN TONIGHT" with Don Lemon. Brian Sicknick, the capitol police officer who lost his life in the line of duty, protecting our capitol, cradle of all democracy and the lawmakers that were hiding within it has been presented to be memorialized and remembered in state in the U.S. Capitol.

We haven't seen anything like this since 1998. Officer Sicknick, his family had him cremated. His remains are on the table next to our flag commemorating his service.

(CROSSTALK)

DON LEMON, CNN HOST: It's a good --

CUOMO: His family was there.

LEMON: It's a good thing, Chris, that we haven't seen anything like this since and we shouldn't be -- we should not be watching it now. As I was listening to you on the way here, hearing that an officer died in the line of duty because of an insurrection on Capitol Hill is just mind boggling to even fathom.

Members of the law enforcement community were supposed to start their visitation, and that's what they're doing now at 10 p.m. And I would imagine the President of the United States will be along soon.

CUOMO: He arrived -- we watched the motorcade bringing him in from the White House.

LEMON: He's not in yet. He hasn't visited.

CUOMO: No, he has not visited --

LEMON: Yes.

CUOMO: -- but we saw the motorcade.

LEMON: Yes. So, it's just, and listen, I have been receiving word from law enforcement, even law enforcement with capitol police and surrounding police departments who, and they are actually happy that we are carrying this. It is an honor to them that we pay tribute to this fallen officer.

So many of those officers were fighting for their lives on January 6th, and we're in danger of losing their lives had they not had such exhibited such a heroic effort to save that capitol. And they did save lives inside that capitol as well. Members of the Senate, members of Congress, and I think you pointed this out earlier, Chris -- this is the scene of the crime where he is laying in honor right now.

The scene of the crime where there will be voting on impeachment for the president. It's surreal. To think that we are actually watching this happen in our country. At this moment --

CUOMO: It is.

LEMON: -- as we await the president's arrival.

CUOMO: Yes, and as soon as he comes up, obviously, we'll pay strict attention to it. I just think that, you know, we always say, Don, we're living in historic times, and here's another never before -- you know, not since 1812 has anyone dared try to come into the capitol, but never before have I seen something where the same men and women who were being protected by this man who gave his life, voted to advance a lie that instigated the entire insurrection immediately thereafter.

We just had the congressional leadership come up and pay homage. And I just hope that they remember what they're holding so dear and solemn inside this room when they leave it and go back to their caucuses and deliberate, because we are not living the truth of January 6th, Don.

LEMON: And it's, listen, and want to talk about that but I want to focus now from the moment on Officer Brian D. Sicknick and his family. His family releasing a statement earlier on Saturday thanking congressional leadership for bestowing this historic honor on the fallen American hero. And he is an American hero. He is laying in honor. And that is an honor that not many people in this country get to have. But he is deserving of it.

And we have to remember the other officers as well. There was one officer Michael Fanone who suffered a heart attack and brain injuries from. And said he was fighting for his life and you heard people say, take his gun. And he believed at that moment that they were going to kill him unless he started to bargain with them and say listen, I have a family, you know, hoping that that would stop them from doing the worst.

And apparently in that moment it did work, and he said to about those people who saved him, thank you, but I wish -- and I'm paraphrasing here, I wish you had not been here in the first place.

But I think it's -- tonight, yes, the Senate and the Congress should be doing their jobs and thinking about what they're going to do and what they should be doing.

[22:04:58] But this is an honor to the people you see there, the men and women in uniform all over this country, but especially those who are in the Washington, D.C. area who fought so valiantly on that day to protect not only the capitol but protect the people who are inside and who continue to do it every single day.

And again, the President of the United States Joe Biden, his motorcade arrived about 9.56 at the capitol and we're awaiting on him to enter the rotunda and pay his respects to officer Brian D. Sicknick. Chris.

CUOMO: You know, and if it's what I understand, we should note the move by the president. He wants the officers to go first. And be with one of their own and give them that position of priority, because they were there first protecting. And any one of these men and women who were there that day could be receiving the salutes instead of giving them, and that is a very poignant reminder. So, it's good they get to go first.

And you have to honor the officer but you also have to honor why he died by learning the lesson of it. I've covered many of these. I've been with men and women and I've watched them give their lives and service to this country at home and abroad. And their families without failure, want to make sure that a lesson is learn in the honoring their own.

LEMON: I think we need you, as we listen to this, keep your eye on the door to the left of your screen at the top right under the Capitol Hill and the time stamp here, and that's where the president will be entering.

Again, members of law enforcement are now entering and paying their respects. And, you know, we don't have control of this camera. This is a pool camera to get closeups of exactly who is there. But Chris, I want you to think about, as we wait for the arrival of the president and we watch these men and women in uniform pay their respects.

What we've gone through and watching at this particular, this particular place, right, that went through an insurrection, we went through impeachment, right? They're walking the -- walking the article of impeachment over. We have had an inauguration. And now we have a fallen officer laying in honor at the capitol.

These are, as you say, as we always say, these are the times that people write about for the history books, and we are living in that time right now.

CUOMO: It's an interesting ceremony. They encircle the officer and then they come up in a line and salute, and that is a very powerful embrace of one of their own, literally surrounding them in that sense of honor of their own duty. And they're coming detachment by detachment of different aspects of capitol police and other law enforcement. The president is on premises. We're waiting for him to come and to be our collective conscious in this solemn moment.

LEMON: Lying in state is -- this isn't lying in state, this is lying in honor, but an honor like this is typically reserved for leaders of American government. But two U.S. capitol police officers were shot to death in 1998 and, they were the first private citizens as you rightly said moments ago to lie in honor in the capitol.

And it is a rare occurrence. And I think everyone in audience will agree with me, let's hope it never happens again, that we lose officers in the line of duty in any way, but also especially in an insurrection of people who are trying to overthrow the very democracy that we so honor, live, and believe in.

An attack on our democracy is the worst of the worst. It is an attack on our freedom and our liberty and our persons. It is a personal attack on everything that we believe in, and this officer, this hero died trying to protect that. And I shouldn't say trying to -- they did protect them.

Because Chris, as we know, even after this insurrection happened, you and I witnessed, live on television, we were together.

[22:09:58]

Members of the Senate and the Congress going back into the very halls where they had been hiding just hours before in fear -- had feared for their lives, and they went and they completed their constitutional duty of certifying the electoral votes, certifying the election that happened on November 7, 2020, even though hours before they were in danger of their lives inside these very halls.

CUOMO: It was very honorable that they went back. Even at a time where I don't know how you could be completely certain that there was no remaining danger. What had been left behind, all the God forbids that usually takes some time to check and double check.

But it must also be remembered in what January 6th was about is that after we saw an angry mob that represented the worst of us try to break in and stop the democratic proceedings, you had 140 or so members of one party stand up to echo the lie that had brought the insurrection in the first place.

LEMON: Yes. Right on. CNN's Dana Bash joins us now from Washington. Dana, you're a congressional correspondent for a number of years. You covered this. This is your beat. Watching this all unfold. You're there in Washington. I want to hear your thoughts on what's happening now and the emotion that has -- that has -- the emotion that people are feeling in Washington, D.C. right now especially as it relates to these events.

DANA BASH, CNN CHIEF POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Heavy. Very heavy. You know, the people who walk the capitol campus every day, and I was one of them for a couple of decades, you get to know these officers, certainly by face if not by name, and you come to rely on them as a protector and a friendly face.

And, you know, Officer Sicknick is somebody who was one of those. And everything changed for all of these officers, for everybody in that building in that day. And now because he gave the ultimate sacrifice in trying to protect the people in that building -- never mind the edifice, he is now lying in honor, and he's only the fifth person in American history to do so.

I mean, he is in the company of Rosa Parks and he is in the company of Reverend Billy Graham. And as you mentioned earlier, don, two officers who similarly gave their lives to protect the capital back in 1998, officer Jacob Chestnut and detective John Gibson. And so, this is an important moment in history, and it is a solemn moment, and a reminder of just how rare it is to be seeing what we're seeing.

LEMON: Dana, you covered the -- not only the people, but the events inside of this building, as I said, you know, you covered them so well for quite some time. Let's think about it this way -- he is returning to the very building that he protected for over a decade, where we received those life-threatening injuries protecting the legislative branch, right? I should say fatal injuries. For the last time he's returning to the place that he served. That is -- that's -- that's powerful to think about.

BASH: Absolutely. It's incredibly powerful to think about, and it's powerful to watch. I mean, you could feel it. And as, you know, as we discussed what we're seeing, you can -- the solemnity in there it is really palpable. And you know, I've been in that rotunda when we have had people who were elected officials lying in state in a formal way, and you can feel it.

But even more so for somebody who was not a household name, was not a president of the United States or a United States senator. But somebody who was literally in the line of duty. And gave his life in order to protect, and not just to protect from so many of the threats that we think about when we walk those halls, and I certainly did after 9/11, for example, from international forces, but from within.

[22:15:01]

From people inside the United States, American citizens. Storming the capitol while members of Congress were doing their constitutional duty in order to certify the Electoral College, and these people were doing so in the name of the President of the United States, forging ahead based on lies that he continued to tell and those who are his supporters did as well. And that is what makes this even more heart wrenching that that is the reason why we're watching this solemn moment.

LEMON: You know, Chris had been conversing with our colleague Josh Campbell, who's a former FBI agent. He said to me, he said, there's no job in Washington like a capitol police officer. The job is to protect the major target, filled with giant egos, as we know. Yet it's also supposed to be people's house, welcoming in normal times for people to see their representatives.

I think people want to the people's House to get back to that because we have gone so far astray, especially since January 6th. This is a reminder of what's at stake that we're watching on our screens right now, Chris.

CUOMO: We are. And we're seeing the best of us right now. The men and women who took an oath to defend us, to protect, to serve, and they did just that at a time that this country needed it most. And I don't think it can be overstated, and I think that this is the right thing to be done for officer Sicknick and the right thing to be done for this country at the right time.

You could argue it took too long, almost a month later, for us to start recognizing the gravity of this moment as a day that should and must live in infamy. Yet we've never seen anything like it before.

You said, Don, hopefully we'll never see anything like it again. That is only the inheritance of people who learn from a mistake, and I have no security in that idea right now. We -- things have really not gotten bet since January 6th. Then as for being the people's House, it is.

And if we could just get back to it being about the people's business and how much progress can be made, how much productivity can be made instead of just how much anger and fomenting of different interests, you have to believe that we'll get to a better police, and that's what makes someone like Representative Adam Kinzinger such an intriguing figure right now. Or Senator Joe Manchin such an intriguing figure right now. People who are going against the inclinations of their own for what they think is right.

LEMON: Yes. You know, I think Chris mentioned this earlier, Dana, and I want to know your thoughts, because you covered this -- Joe Biden his four children from two marriages. His first-born daughter Naomi Christina Biden died, that was in 1972. It was a car accident with her mother. And then, you know, his son Beau Biden died in 2015.

Talk about someone who knows empathy, who knows grief. That is this president and it's in exact contrast of the last president. But Joe Biden knows grief, he knows empathy. I think Chris called him the consoler. Hopefully he can be the consoler in chief for the -- in the coming hours in the coming days.

BASH: Absolutely. And he will be. I mean, we saw him do that in his role as the Democratic candidate throughout the summer when he -- during the riots, when he had moments where he could be that person. We saw him at CNN town halls when --

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: There's the president, Dana.

BASH: And there he is.

LEMON: And the first lady arriving. And I think we should just listen and let them pay their respects.

[22:20:00]

President Joe Biden and the first lady Jill Biden paying their respects to officer Brian D. Sicknick who lost his life in the line of duty on January 6th protecting the capital and the lives inside of that capitol. Dana Bash here with me. Chris Cuomo with me as well. Chris, Dana was

talking about the empathy of Joe Biden before the president came in to the capitol, this president also a very religious man. Walking up to the table, putting his right hand on the table, and then over his heart.

And then visit, and then going over to look at some of the flowers and really shaking his head. And you could, a collective sigh, I'm sure, across the country, of grief. In a moment that quite frankly it made me tear up. I cannot believe where we are, but hopefully we will get beyond this point to a much better place.

CUOMO: You know, speaking with the president about his faith, he keeps it very simple. Obviously, he's a Christian and a Catholic, second there (Inaudible). But his faith in these matters comes down to two words -- love mercy. And it is a very ample instruction. No matter what you believe right now, we are honoring officer Sicknick because of his dedication to something bigger than himself.

And it is the highest ideal in our society and our democracy, and there's so much pain in the capitol right now. There's so much pain in his family. There's so much pain in his brothers and sisters who did the job, who there but before the grace go thee.

And the shame of it is if we don't learn the lesson and don't honor the sacrifice by getting to a better place -- and we have not done that since January 6th. And so, for those who want to honor the officer, good, you should. But for those in power who say they want to do the same, we only know what they show in their intentions and their actions thereafter.

LEMON: Chris, thank you very much for helping us through this. I thought it was important that you -- because you had been doing such a fantastic job of covering this before, and again, as I told you, I was getting thank yous from members of law enforcement that we were covering this on CNN and you happened to be on the air, so thank you for guiding us through this. I know you got to get on with your evening. So, thank you very much.

You're going the leave me with Dana Bash. I think I'm in very able hands right now. So, Chris, thank you so much. I'll see you soon, brother. I love you.

CUOMO: I love you. And sharing history with you and Dana, I wouldn't want to be anywhere else. God bless. And be well tonight.

LEMON: Dana Bash -- thank you, sir. Dana Bash, 36 years Joe Biden has been walking these halls with capitol police.

BASH: That's what I was thinking about, because I met then-Senator Biden when he was in those hallowed halls, you know, day after day. And he was for, you know, three and a half decades during some of his toughest times, during some of his best times, he had officers like these, like officer Sicknick, there to protect him just like those officers who were protecting the other 99 senators he served with. And so, you were talking about empathy and about the fact that he --

because he's had so much pain in his own life, and for other reasons, he's just inherently so empathetic. But this is another level and another layer of that because these capitol police officers were a part of his life for so many years as a United States senator.

LEMON: Yes. Dana, again, I want to remind our viewers, we're watching -- watching laying in honor here now, officer Brian D. Sicknick who was a member of the capitol police who lost his life in the line of duty.

We saw the president and the first lady of the United States pay their respects just moments ago live here on CNN, and now you have members of the law enforcement community doing the same thing.

[22:25:00]

They were doing it before the president and first lady arrived and they're doing it now as well.

I want to get -- Dana, stand by because I want to get now to CNN's Kaitlan Collins. Kaitlan joins us now by phone. Kaitlan is our chief White House correspondent. Kaitlan, this was very important for the President of the United States to be here and to do this. We know his respect for law enforcement. We know how he has dealt with grief after the loss of two children.

KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: That's right. And, you know, finally enough, tomorrow is actually what would have been his son Beau Biden's birthday as well. I heard the conversation you and Dana were having earlier about the grief that the president knows all too well.

And he actually had not known exactly that he was going to be coming up to Capitol Hill tonight with the first lady. We had an idea from White House officials but this wasn't something that was on his schedule until of course he left the White House earlier tonight and made his way up there to pay his respect.

But we did know that in the days following the riot on Capitol Hill, President Biden actually had called the officer's family. That was at that point in time when the White House was delayed at lowering the flag, of course when President Trump was still in office. And we know that the Vice President, Mike Pence had later called, and then President Biden alter called his family and spoke with them as well.

And so, we had an idea that this is something that could be happening. And then you saw of course other leaders that were also there, Chuck Schumer, Nancy Pelosi standing up on the steps as they were bringing in his remains to lie in honor.

And so, it is notable as Dana was saying that this is a really rare distinction that you see someone get. And of course, this is a rare circumstance and a rare event that led to this event that's now happening late in the evening on Capitol Hill in Washington. And so, White House officials had been planning this for a few days,

we were told, and they just had not said specifically for obvious reason given the security of a presidential visit somewhere. But they visit, it was something that they believe is a priority after he had spoken with his family in the days after he was killed.

LEMON: Kaitlan, thank you very much. Kaitlan, we appreciate your reporting. Dana Bash, thank you for joining me on this historic evening. And to cover the death and the honor of Brian Sicknick, the officer who lost his life in the line of duty on that insurrection on Capitol Hill.

So, we will continue to follow this news story. Again, the President of the United States, the first lady, just paid honor to this fallen officer just moments ago, and these police officers will be doing this throughout the evening. And we will cover it here on CNN.

We need to talk about the COVID crisis in this country. Because more than 32 million vaccines have been administered so far. But what does that mean for you at home? When will things get back to normal. And what will it even look like? I'm going to have a very special guest up next here on CNN Tonight. Dr. Anthony Fauci joins me next.

[22:30:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON (on camera): So, tonight the White House is saying 21 national pharmacy chains, including giants like Walgreens and CVS will begin administering COVID-19 vaccines as the Biden administration moves to expand the national vaccination program.

A lot to discuss with Dr. Anthony Fauci. He is the director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases. Good to see you, doctor. Thank you so much for appearing.

So, on top of increasing the amount of vaccine sent so states, the federal government will start sending supply directly to pharmacies. Tell us how that is going to work, and what does that mean for the people who are at home watching us right now?

ANTHONY FAUCI, DIRECTOR, NATIONAL INSTITUTE OF ALLERGY AND INFECTIOUS DISEASES: Well, that means a much easier access and availability of the vaccine to people in a common setting that they're used to. So, maybe two or three things are going to be initiated with this program. You mentioned one that is very important, shipping vaccine doses directly to pharmacies so people can go to their pharmacies and get them easily the way you would get anything in a pharmacy.

The next is to open up community vaccine centers. And to do so, particularly aiming at areas where there is underrepresentation of facilities to get people such as minorities, brown and black people, who don't have the ease of getting to some of the other facilities and even using mobile units to get to not easily accessible areas.

So, a, you want to make it easy to get vaccines done. Pharmacies, good way to do it. But also, you want to have equity in it, Don. You want to be able to make sure that we only, we don't only have some demographic groups that have availability and accessibility to the vaccines.

LEMON: Let's talk about, you know, how -- why this is taking so long because the need for the vaccine supply is dire. I know everyone is working really hard, but why is it taking so long to get more doses distributed, doctor?

FAUCI: Well, you know, it's just a question of the production speed and capability of doing it. As we get in to middle of February into March and April, the number of doses that are going to be available are going to be greatly accelerated. When we start it off at the end of December and then went into January, where there were very few relatively speaking, doses. And it was complicated by some logistic glitches in getting it into the arms of people.

Right now, the real compelling thing is that the supply does not meet the demand. So, we've got to get more vaccine into people, and we've got make sure that we use every possibility of getting doses out there. The good news is that there are other companies that are now coming in that are applying to the FDA for emergency use authorization such as the recent data which was quite a favorable data from Johnson & Johnson or the Janssen company. Soon there will be Novavax which is another vaccine platform.

[22:35:01]

So, things are going to get progressively better. And what the president was talking about is to open up the capability of getting it into the arms of people as those new doses become available.

LEMON: So, you said every possibility of getting it out there as much as possible. So, with that said, Moderna is proposing increasing the number of doses per vial, doctor, by 50 percent. What do you think of that?

FAUCI: That's a good idea. I mean, it's the same way as getting these dead space needles from the Pfizer product, where if you stick it in there, you can get an extra six-dose out of a five-dose bottle. So right away you're talking like 16 percent or so more than you would normally have had.

And if you can get more doses in there, that really, it's interesting. It seems trivial, but when you're talking about millions of doses that really does make a difference. So, any little thing that we can do to increase the number of doses is value added.

LEMON: Yes. Listen, we've been talking a lot about -- we've heard a lot from the experts like you and others about, you know, who is more susceptible, older people, people with comorbidities and preexisting conditions and, so far. But there's a new study out tonight from the Imperial College in London and it suggests that younger ages 20 to 49 are the biggest spreader of the coronavirus.

Does that mean states should vaccinate younger Americans more aggressively or sooner? Does that change any sort of strategy with the distribution of getting people vaccinated?

FAUCI: No, you want to look at that, Don, but the thing you want to be careful of that, when you're talking about spreading it, it was the 20 to 49-year-olds. Clearly, we were suspecting that early on when we were getting the surges in our own country when the elderly individuals and those with underlying conditions had a risk of getting more severe disease.

But when we were having those surges, which you know, you've reported on them very clearly on your program, that was driven a lot by younger people. So, there's always the strategy that maybe you should make sure those younger people get vaccinated, but you don't want to do is to do it at the expense of getting the older people who have the conditions getting vaccinated.

You don't want to deprive them to get the younger ones because they're the ones that are going to wind up in the hospital and have a higher rate of death. And that's what we don't want to do is to neglect them.

LEMON: I want to talk to you about another study. This one is out of the U.K. And it suggests as well, it suggest that people who have had COVID-19 before are likely to have antibodies for at least six months. And 99 percent of participants had antibodies for three months, 88 percent for six months.

Listen, I don't know exactly what that means. It sounds good, but what's your takeaway there?

FAUCI: The takeaway is that you're protected if you have been infected and you have antibodies that last for a while. That's good if you're being protected against the same virus that initially infected you.

One of the sobering things, Don, that we're finding out in South Africa with these mutants, these variants, that if you were infected with the original virus and the variants comes by, you really don't have much protection at all.

So, although it's good news the report that you just read out to me that you do have three to six months or more of antibody level which likely would be protective, we've got to make sure we keep our eye out on these variants. Because if they become dominant, then we're going to be faced with yet again another challenge.

LEMON: So, listen, we've -- you joined us for one of our town halls on the color of COVID. We've done a couple here on CNN. And you do the town halls with us fairly often with Sanjay and Anderson. But I want to ask you about a study finding that 16 -- about 16 percent of black volunteers, doctor, had antibodies to the virus compared to 8.5 percent of white participants. What does that tell you?

FAUCI: Well, that tells me the sad reality, Don, that brown and black people have a higher incidence of infection to begin with. And the data that you haven't mentioned, that they have much, must have more of a chance of a serious outcome because of the disproportionate number of underlying conditions that they have. So, unfortunately and it's sad but true, in our country where you have

disparities of health that if you're a black or brown person you have a double whammy. You have a more likely chance of getting infected because the jobs that you likely have would put you out into the community doing essential things that expose you to infection.

Once you get infected the likelihood of getting a serious outcome, because it's more likely that you'll have hypertension, diabetes, chronic obstructive pulmonary disease, obesity, and things like that.

[22:40:04]

So, it really is something that we really have to address. Which is, you know, this outbreak sheds a big bright light on health disparities, which are things which our society neglected for so long. We've really got address that and it has to do with the social determinants of health that brown and black people have very little power to move and to change. So, if we're going to look forward after this outbreak, maybe a multidecade commitment to address those social determinants of health that put them in such a compromised position.

LEMON: Doctor, I want to continue on with this conversation because what you're saying is fascinating, so if you could just stick -- stand by I would really appreciate it because there are much fewer black people getting the vaccine across the country. History and misinformation, that's not helping. We're going to talk about that. That's next with Dr. Anthony Fauci.

[22:45:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON (on camera): We're back now with Dr. Anthony Fauci. As the death toll from COVID-19 in the U.S. nears 450,000 people. Dr. Fauci, more than 32 million doses have been administered. But according to the CDC report not equitably.

You talk about equity earlier. People who have gotten the first dose are most likely to be female, non-Hispanic white and at least 50 years old. How does that get fixed when we know Latino and Black Americans are dying at three times the rate of white people in this country?

FAUCI: Well, the two things that we need to address, Don, we need to increase their accessibility to vaccines by getting out into the communities where they are, and for those who want to get vaccinated to make it easy for them to get vaccinated.

But the other thing that we've got address is the issue of vaccine hesitancy, because brown and black people, particularly African- Americans, have an understandable hesitancy that relates historically to decades ago before many of them were even born with the infamous Tuskegee incident which gets passed from generation to generation about not trusting the federal government's medical programs.

And I think the way we get beyond that hesitancy is to respect the reasons why they are hesitant and then get beyond that with them by explaining that the safeguards that have been put in place since then make it virtually impossible for those types of violations to occur in today's world.

And then to go with them and explain to them why it's safe and effective and why it's important for them and their families and their community to get vaccinated. So, it's a combination of reaching out to them and getting it to be easy for them to get vaccinated at the same time that we address the understandable hesitancy that they might have.

LEMON: You -- I have this question on my list that you just answered almost verbatim as to what the question in the order I was going ask you the question. And I'm glad you said vaccine hesitancy, because that does not mean that people of color are anti-vaxxers. It's just the hesitancy because you said --

FAUCI: No.

LEMON: -- legitimately because of what's happened in history.

FAUCI: Right.

LEMON: Yes. So, let's -- minority Americans are more likely to serve in essential worker roles. Here in New York City, the Mayor Bill de Blasio is calling on restaurant workers to be added to the state's current distribution phase, which includes groups like 65 plus, certain grocery workers and first responders. Governor Cuomo shot that down yesterday, but should that happen as restrictions are rolled back, doctor?

FAUCI: Yes. You know, again, the one thing I don't want to do is get into a battle between a mayor and a governor, but I think, you know, it is reasonable, just the same way as teachers. You know, we really want to get teachers in that essential mix of workers. But particularly those people who are overrepresented by minority communities because they are the ones who are getting sick and they are the ones that are dying more than others.

If you look at the rate of hospitalizations per thousand people in the population, it's multifold difference between African-Americans, Latin X and whites. I mean, you can't run away from the data. And then it gets translated into more deaths, which are a couple of fold more.

So, sickness, illness, hospitalization, and deaths, whatever we can do, Don, to address that, to mitigate that, we should do, whether it's reaching out to them, getting them vaccinated, getting them vaccinated quickly, we're all for that.

LEMON: Yes. Listen, I know that you're a concerned -- well, priority -- your first concern is the health aspects of this, but there's also the economic aspect as well. They're intertwined. Indoor dining will re-open in New York City at 25 percent capacity that starting Valentine's Day. Is that still risky? Is that a good idea? Is that too risky?

FAUCI: You know, hopefully by that time that we're going to see -- you know, we are seeing, Don, we are seeing a plateauing and a coming down in the number of infections per day. I think if that's done carefully with masking of the personnel, with making sure that if you do indoor dining you do it in a spaced way where you don't have people sitting right next to each other.

Also, even though it's winter, you know, good air flow and ventilation, you can accomplish that. I mean, in my own area where I live here in Washington, D.C., what you see is some of the restaurants which extended by putting like a tent around but having good air flow.

[22:50:02]

All kinds of creative things like that. We are very sensitive to the economic impact that adhering to public health measures. You know, people think sometimes that public health officials are oblivious to the economic considers. Not at all. I mean, we are very empathetic towards that but we still have to maintain the public health measures if we are going to get our arms around this outbreak.

So, I would think that helping the owners of the restaurants and the owners of the enterprises that are getting impacted by the public health measures would be something that we're all very much in favor of. And that's what the relief packages are all about.

LEMON: You know what everyone wants to know. They want to know when we will likely get back -- when we likely get back to normal. Once a person gets vaccinated, what can they do? Can they do anything differently? Back to normal, that's what people want to know. When does that happen?

FAUCI: Yes. It's going to be a cohort effect. And what I mean by a cohort effect, Don, is that, you can't look at yourself in a vacuum. Like I'm vaccinated, and then when can we get back to normal? Well, normal is a societal thing. So, what we mean if you want our society to get back to normal, you have to get about 70 percent to 85 percent of the population vaccinated.

Because if you do that, notwithstanding the variants which we'll have to address in a second, but if you can get people protected and get an umbrella of what we call herd immunity, the level of infection is going to go very, very low down in the community, and in society. And at that point, the entire community could start getting back to normal, and namely doing things that each and every person would want to do. Maybe not 100 percent back to normal but at least approaching normal.

I think if we do it right, if we efficiently and effectively get people vaccinated, we can do that by the end of summer, the beginning of the fall.

LEMON: Yes.

FAUCI: Having said that, Don, there is an absolute but in that. And the but is, that but is that we have to address the variants. If the variants and the mutations come and start becoming dominant, then that's going to obviate some of the effect of the vaccine. And the best way to avoid that is to get as many people vaccinated as quickly as possible.

Because viruses don't mutate if they don't replicate. The only way a virus mutates if it can replicate. So, if you vaccinate people and double down on public health measures and keep the level of viral dynamics low, we will not have an easy evolution into mutations. That's something that people really need to understand. The way you stop those mutations, get vaccinated and abide by public health measures.

LEMON: Hey doctor, I'm up against the clock here. But if you can answer this question really quickly for me, I have to get a short trip.

FAUCI: Sure.

LEMON: We always take viewer questions. This is from a friend of mine who has diabetes. She wants to know when people with underlying health conditions get vaccinated. That's her question.

FAUCI: Yes. When the vaccine comes your way, get vaccinated. Having an underlying condition right now, we are talking about the next level of people, 16 to 64 who have underlying conditions, they will be the next group that are going to be on the line, on the queue of getting vaccinated. That should be quite soon.

LEMON: Dr. Anthony Fauci, we appreciate it. Thank you so much. Thank you for the work that you do, and we hope that you'll come back. Be safe.

FAUCI: Thank you very much, Don. Good to be with you.

LEMON: Next, a closed-door meeting on Capitol Hill. How do you solve a problem like Marjorie Taylor Greene? Republicans at a cross roads they denounce the conspiracies or do they do allow them to thrive.

[22:55:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON (on camera): Kevin McCarthy meeting tonight behind closed doors for hours tonight with Congresswoman Marjorie Taylor Greene over her racist, Islamophobic conspiracy theories but no decision yet on whether or not to strip her of her committee assignments over her incendiary and violent rhetoric.

I want to bring in now CNN political commentator Amanda Carpenter. Amanda, thank you for appearing this evening. So good to see you.

So why are McCarthy and the party having such a hard time dealing with Marjorie Taylor Greene? They have an easier time attacking Liz Cheney for backing impeachment. What's going on here?

AMANDA CARPENTER, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I'm worried. I think the leaders in the party are now having a hard time about trying to figure out where to draw the line when it comes to this conspiracy driven lies. And I, you know, I watched the first hour of your show and I was reflecting on that really moving ceremony for officer Sicknick. And I was just thinking to myself, thought, my God, Don, this officer was killed because of politically-driven delusional lies.

And now at the same time, you have Kevin McCarthy just down the hallway behind closed doors who doesn't know what to do with the poster girl for delusional politically-driven lies. OK? There is no question of what she said. It's on videotape. It wasn't like she was in high school. It was a couple years ago. And it wasn't just crazy. It was cruel. It was heartless. She has no remorse.

And now they still don't know what to do about it? I feel like, you know, there is a big debate about what's happening at the Republican Party. It's dead. It's rotten. It's devoid of ideas. If the leaders like Kevin McCarthy can't think of a better way to core a political base than to appeal to the Trump, Marjorie Taylor Greene QAnon crowd. That's where we are right now.

LEMON: Well, listen, you just made me think of something as you were saying that. You have a very point. You know, kids who -- young people, I should say, who make mistakes who have done things on social media, and said things that they should not have said, they get harsher punishments than Marjorie Taylor Greene. So far. We have to see what comes of this meeting.

But so far, many of them are not -- I should say, many of them, but a number of them are not allowed into colleges or they lose their jobs --

CARPENTER: Yes.

LEMON: -- or so on and so forth. But that has not happened to Marjorie Taylor Greene. One concern though, I believe, and maybe this is why among GOP members is punishing a member for things that they did before winning their election. And that's according to two officials with direct knowledge of this meeting. Should that make a difference?

CARPENTER: Listen, there's things that people said, maybe they made a mistake. You show remorse. She's shown no remorse. It's on tape. I mean, pick --

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: But she's done it over and over and over.

[23:00:02]

CARPENTER: Yes, and pick which one. Is it the 9/11 trutherism? Is it the big election lie?