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Don Lemon Tonight

Rep. Liz Cheney Would Not Apologize For Impeaching Trump; Biden Calls On Dems To Stick Together To Pass COVID Relief Bill; Rep. McCarthy Won't Take Actions Against QAnon Supporter, Rep. Taylor Greene; Is COVID Isolation Making Americans More Vulnerable To Conspiracy Theories?; Defense Secretary Orders Review Of Extremism In The Military. Aired 11p-12a ET

Aired February 03, 2021 - 23:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[23:00:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DON LEMON, CNN HOST (on camera): So here's our breaking news. Congresswoman Liz Cheney holding on to her leadership post. Her Republican colleagues voting tonight to keep Cheney in the number three position. She came under withering criticism for her vote to impeach President Trump for inciting the Capitol insurrection.

In a contentious closed door meeting Cheney insisted that she would not apologize for her vote, that as the House GOP Leader, Kevin McCarthy refuses to strip important committee assignments from QAnon's Congresswoman Marjorie Taylor Greene. Democrats forcing a vote tomorrow.

So stay tuned for that. But let's talk about all of this. CNN's White House correspondent, John Harwood is here and Congressional correspondent Ryan Nobles as well. Gentlemen, hello to both of you. Good evening. Ryan, you first, you're there at the scene. You have been following all of the drama on the Capitol tonight. Tell us about what happened inside this GOP meeting, please.

RYAN NOBLES, CNN WASHINGON CORRESPONDENT (on camera): Yes. It was pretty remarkable, Don. This was a meeting that spanned more than four hours tonight here on Capitol Hill. We're told at times that the meeting was pretty tense, that, you know, members were given the opportunity to stand up and say whatever they wanted about either Liz Cheney or Marjorie Taylor Greene, and really what's most interesting about the outcome of all this, is that we're told that inside the room, most of the incoming fire was directed at Liz Cheney, not at Marjorie Taylor Greene.

In fact, where Marjorie Taylor Greene spoke, she even received a partial standing ovation, but that didn't reflect the ultimate results. In fact, Liz Cheney was able to hold on to her leadership post by a comfortable margin. After it was all said and done, Kevin McCarthy said that, you know, this was evidence that his Republican Party is part of just one big tent. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) REP. KEVIN MCCARTHY (R-CA): It's just an example, this Republican

Party is a very big tent. Everyone's invited in. And you look at the last election. We continue to grow. In two years we'll be the majority. Thank you all.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

NOBLES (on camera): And so he thinks that's going to be enough for them to continue to grow their majority. But you know, what lies beneath all of this, Don, is a real sense of angst and division with these Republican members. This was a secret ballot here tonight. So, none of these members will be held accountable for how they voted.

And you have to wonder tomorrow when we see all of them forced to make a public vote on whether or not to kick Marjorie Taylor Greene off these committees that she sits on, if it looks remarkably different than what we saw with Liz Cheney tonight, because many of them are nervous to draw the ire of the former President Donald Trump.

LEMON: Coward as is what they call it. So, Ryan, do you think Li Cheney would have got such a wide margin tonight? Because, you know, you mentioned tomorrow, right, they're afraid to draw the ire. If that vote wasn't secret, because the vote was 145 who voted tonight to support her in secret, 147 who voted to overturn the lection results in public. It's pretty even.

NOBLES: Yes. I think it's a great point, Don. I mean, we have to ask the question, if these members had to be accountable for this vote and if they had to go back to their districts, many of which are districts that the former president won comfortably in this past fall election, would they have been as courageous to continue to support Liz Cheney? And we don't know the answer to that question. We may never know the answer to that question but it is certainly something worth pondering.

And I think what it also tells us is that even though some of these Republican members will publicly continue to say that they embrace the former president, that they believe that he should continue to be the leader of the Republican Party, that privately, they actually don't feel that way, that they would be -- they are -- would be more than happy to move on from Trump dominating the conversation in their party and moving to some sort of a new future.

Bit for many of them, they're in a tight spot here, because he is still part of the equation. And even if that's what they hope, it's not necessarily what their supporters back in their district support.

LEMON: It would be the smart thing to do, it would be the right thing to do. It would also be the strategic thing to do. But you know, who am I? John, Cheney survived the vote tonight, we saw the GOP essentially side with Marjorie Taylor Greene over Liz Cheney. That is exactly what Donald Trump wants, you know, I've been calling the QOP now, the QAnon Old Party or the Q-Trump looking party. This is exactly what Trump wants.

[23:05:03] JOHN HARWOOD, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT (on camera): Well, Don, I

would say -- I would not say that they sided with Marjorie Taylor Greene over Liz Cheney. They declined to strip Marjorie Taylor Greene of her committee assignments and they left Liz Cheney in her position. That was a decision to try to avoid making anybody angry, avoid drawing any lines, avoid setting any firm principles.

They let people vent against Liz Cheney but she ended up with a solid vote to hold her position. They cheered Marjorie Taylor Greene. You just heard that soundbite from Kevin McCarthy. He came out and said big tent, everybody's invited in. That's really the issue.

We've heard from Republican Senators last couple of days, Mitt Romney saying our big tent is not big enough to embrace both conservatives and cooks. Or Mitch McConnell said looney lies are a cancer on the Republican Party. House Republican leadership was not willing to draw a line against those cooks and those loony lies.

Yes, she spoke in that meeting and expressed regret for having put her colleagues in a bad spot. Has she come out publicly apologized for what she said? She has not. And this is another display of Republican leadership that's playing to the least common denominator and is not strong enough to stand up and draw clear lines.

LEMON: And John, President Biden is trying to get bipartisan support for his COVID relief package, but Republicans are breaking down in factions. Who are the Democrats supposed to unite with at this point?

HARWOOD: It's not likely that they're going to unite with any large group of Republicans. It's plain -- certainly it's not going to happen in the House. In the Senate, you had that group of 10 that proposed a measure on COVID relief that was way, way short of anything that Joe Biden could deal with.

Now Joe Biden's package will probably change somewhat. The price tag will probably come down a little bit. It is not impossible that some -- a couple of Republican Senators might end up voting for that. Mitt Romney said today, but 1.9, no Republican Senator will. So, it's possible they will get a small number of Republican votes, but they don't need them and they're not going to wait for them.

LEMON: All right. Gentlemen, thank you so much. I appreciate it.

I want to bring in now CNN political commentator, Charlie Dent, a former Republican Congressman from Pennsylvania. Brendan Buck is here, who was a top aide to the former Republican House Speaker Paul Ryan. Gents, hello. Help me. Help the audience understand what the hell is going on in this country.

Charlie, I got to jump right into it. Because if half the elected Republicans in Congress are giving a bigoted anti-Semitic conspiracy theorist, who advocated killing fellow congress people a standing ovation, is it time for Republicans like you to form a new party?

FMR. REP. CHARLIE DENT (R-PA), CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR (on camera): Well, there's a real debate right now, Don, just about that. You know, should there be a new faction or a new party? I think right now that there needs to be a faction pushing back. I think somebody like Adam Kinzinger is doing a really important service by standing up and saying you know, we need reclaim the party and bring it back to core values and core principles.

I mean, the fact that they are, you know, hammering Liz Cheney, although I have to tell you, Liz Cheney, she called their bluff. They said that you know, they said they had the votes to take her down. She said let's call a vote and you saw that she won by better than two to one margin. So good for here.

Now, on the other hand, Taylor Greene is going to be -- she going to be a boat anchor around the necks of so many of those Republicans in swing and marginal districts for this is going to be tied to her. Just as Republicans tie Democrats to AOC and the squad, you know, it's a fair turn-around. Democrats are going to do the same thing with Taylor Greene.

LEMON: Brendan, Liz Cheney survived by a big margin in a secret vote. And he still, it was 60 people, 61 people. That was a lot. Well, because McCarthy refused to take action on Greene. Democrats are going to bring a vote to the floor tomorrow. Every Republican will have to go on record. How does this all look?

BRENDAN BUCK, FMR, CHIEF COMMUNICATION ADVISER TO FMR. SPEAKER PAUL RYAN (on camera): Well, it's a terrible. Look and I expect almost every Republican will vote against that resolution. Probably they'll argue on precedent terms and I think there's a real concern there. We are spiraling into a really dangerous place where parties are dictating to other parties who gets to serve on what committees. I really fear what happens if Republicans take back the House, what they will do to Democrats if a retribution.

So, they're all going to vote no but that will all of course be interpreted as a vote in support of Marjorie Taylor Greene, which is a terrible look for the party. I really wish we had been able to head this off before we got to this point.

[23:10:00]

And look, what's so upsetting to me to hearing what Kevin McCarthy said earlier about the big tent. I interpreted it as him saying is, we have to have a tent big enough for Liz Cheney. That's the crazy part to me. Liz Cheney should be like the traditional Republican who's always been there and now we have to make an accuse excuse that we're big enough to be able to support a Liz Cheney.

If we can't have Liz Cheney, we have no principles, no ideas. I mean, this is the type of person who we should be wanting to have. Somebody who actually has a point of view and isn't just there to get on TV. So, I'm really glad we avoided complete disaster today, but I think what you're going to see in the vote tomorrow with everybody siding with Marjorie Taylor Greene is that we still have a very big problem and a long way to go.

LEMON: Well, listen, Liz Cheney, I mean, folks like Liz Cheney used to be the tent pole, right. Not just inside the tent. They were the pole that held up the tent. But there was also an interpretation, you can interpret it that they were making -- that the tent is big enough for a racist conspiracy theorist as well. Is that who Republicans want to make room for her inside the tent?

BUCK: I -- we can't. Look. We can't. Even the president's former president's campaign put out a memo that was reported this week looking back at why they lost. They lost because they had incredible erosion among educated suburban voters. Let's put the moral question aside, which obviously there's huge moral issues. But even politically. You can't win back suburban educated voters by having one of the most prominent faces of the party right now, and frankly she is.

She is the face of the freshman party, freshman class of the Republican Party be a conspiracy theorist. You can't win back that way. You have to draw clear lines. You have to say what you're for. I'm glad that she got in front of the conference and apologized, I guess. I wasn't there obviously.

LEMON: No, she didn't.

BUCK: But you know, she's going to have to a, have to say that publicly.

LEMON: She didn't apologize.

BUCK: We're going to have to start seeing more and more people -- OK. We're going to have to have more and more people push her aside or else we're just going to signal that we're open to this and we're OK with that and we can't be.

LEMON: Charlie, siding with the extremes and the base, what effect does that have on the party long term? Where do the moderates go?

DENT: Well, look, this is a continuing problem for the party. The erosion, as Brendan just pointed out, of suburban educated voters is catastrophic to the party. That's why Donald Trump lost as badly as he did. And when we talk about a big tent, you know, I didn't think the idea of a big tent was to include these extremist conspiracy theorist white nationalist elements.

That's not what we were talking about. We are talking about including a diverse coalition. I thought we meant we are trying to grow the party more towards the center rather than to the fringe. So, I think we have to have a re-visitation of what it means to be a big tent. But long term, it's going to be very difficult for Republicans to win back seats in those swing districts largely in suburban communities where we've taken a beating.

How do you win those seats back when we have -- you know, when basically they've just embraced somebody like Taylor Greene. You know, I argued since summertime, they should have told her that she was not going to get any committee assignments and not welcome her into the Republican conference. That's the way you deal with her, just like they dealt with Steve King. You have to marginalize and isolate them and it takes leadership to do that.

LEMON: Long term, the world and the country, the country is not moving in the direction that the Republican Party is going right now. I'm just being honest. It's not moving in the conspiracy theory direction. It's not moving in the white nationalist direction. As a matter of fact, the country is becoming more diverse.

And so that's going to lead to a shrinking party. Listen, I have to run but Charlie, let me just ask you, do you think the party can recover from this or have they crossed the Rubicon and there's no coming back?

DENT: Well, look, we're not there yet but we're reaching a critical point. Frankly, Don, what's happening is the base is shrinking. So, we talk about all how intense the base is. But it's a smaller base. So many people are no longer identifying as Republican. They had moved in to (inaudible) Democrat, and long term, that's catastrophic. You know, demography is destiny as we all know and we can't escape it.

LEMON (on camera): Thank you, gentlemen. I appreciate it. See you soon.

Kevin McCarthy, paralyzed in the face of QAnon Congressman Marjorie Taylor Greene, why is his party choosing to go down the rabbit hole? And what does that say to people who actually believe her QAnon lies?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ASHLEY VANDERBILT, FORMER QANON BELIEVER: If they're not going to call her out on it, then everyone else believing it, there's got to be some sort of truth. And then if there's some truth, why would anybody leave?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

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[23:15:00]

LEMON: So the Republican Party showing its true colors tonight. Liz Cheney hanging on to her leadership position after voting to impeach Trump for inciting the Capitol insurrection. But Marjorie Taylor Greene, a QAnon conspiracy theorist, gets a standing ovation from her colleagues.

So joining me CNN's senior political analysts, David Gergen and Kirsten Powers. Well, this is where we are. Good evening to the both of you. David, you, first.

DAVID GERGEN, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST (on camera): Yes, sir.

LEMON: The Republican Party had a chance, they really had a chance for a clean break with Trump. And I mean, he incited the deadly insurrection. But instead, they are choosing to keep plunging down this rabbit hole. Where does this lead them? GERGEN: To an unraveling of the Republican Party and possible

replacement by another party down the road. But we are a long way from there yet. What we know tonight is that Trump is gone, but Trumpism remains alive and well in the Republican Party. It's like a toxic virus that's taken over the party. And it's going to take its course for the next few months.

[23:20:03]

It is extremely dangerous for the country that keeps -- the Republicans keep stirring this pot, keep continuing arguing you know, that Biden has fraudulently elected, make it more difficult to govern. One of the reasons that she's gotten away with this so far is that people are just scared of her on Capitol Hill.

It's the most -- it's just -- it's unbelievable to me. I got to get handle people like, you know, Jim Baker and George Schultz and people who have walked the hallways of Republican power and this woman who's -- she I don't question her gender. I question what she beliefs and how she is poisoning our politics.

LEMON: Kirsten, Rick Wilson, who is a Lincoln Project co-founder told Anderson earlier tonight that Marjorie Taylor Greene broke Kevin McCarthy and she is now the minority leader. It sounds wild but is there some truth to that?

KIRSTEN POWERS, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST (on camera): Well, I don't think it's just her. You know, she's the face of this. And really Donald Trump is the original face, so it's, you know, Donald Trump is largely responsible for stirring up a lot of these conspiracy theories and really bringing the Republican Party to a different place. And she's a reflection of that. So I feel like, she's come and she is sort of a stand-in for Donald Trump. He, of course, loves her.

But she unfortunately represents the views of a percentage that is significant enough percentage of the Republican Party that other members of Congress are afraid of her. So she wouldn't be -- they wouldn't be afraid of her if she wasn't representing people who they thought could bring harm to them in terms of voting them out of office, right?

So that is what I think is the particularly concerning issue about this just stepping back from Republican Party politics. But for the country that we have, so many people, I mean, you know, I've seen the interviews and I've read interviews with people who have said, you know, Donald Trump would have just said that the election was legitimate.

I would have believed him, right. So these people are being led along all these different conspiracy theories and, you know, she's just another person who's basically pushing these ideas that already have gotten a lot of traction.

LEMON: Speaker Pelosi, Kirsten, called Kevin McCarthy the minority leader Q-California, right? They know this is a mess for Republicans. They know it. POWERS: Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. I mean, there's no question that -- you

know, I mean, I know that Marjorie Taylor Greene is basically saying Democrats are stupid for doing this, they don't understand they're making me more popular. And that's true. They are making her more popular. But what she doesn't seem to understand is that it's harming the Republican Party. And so -- or maybe she doesn't care, also.

And so this is actually going to cause harm to the Republican Party in terms of electoral politics because she will become the face of the Republican Party. And I would say not without merit. I think sometimes you see where, you know, people try to take Nancy Pelosi, for example, the Republicans had exaggerated who she is. Nobody's exaggerating.

You know, I mean, this is not an exaggeration of who she is. I mean, you really can't even do justice to the things that she has said and the things that she apparently believes.

LEMON: Yes. Right on. David, the Senate GOP leader is calling Marjorie Taylor Greene a cancer. The House GOP leader is coming to her defense. So, how do you explain -- explain the difference here.

GERGEN: Between what and what?

LEMON: Between you've got the House doing one thing and you've got the Senate doing another. One is saying there's a cancer, the leader there, and the other -- and in the House is saying that Republican leader is saying -- coming to her defense saying, we got a big -- we've got a big tent, we got to make room for everybody.

GERGEN: Well, yeah. The people in the House are typically much closer to the voters, and you can really get knocked off very easily. What I've be told consistently for the last two or three weeks is that when members went home and the House of Representatives went home after January 6th.

They just got an earful, a blast from a lot of people in the base, who said you -- way too soft on this. You should have stood up for Trump. You let them take him down. And they came back scared. And I think that's what we're seeing. Let me go back to this other point, Don, if I might just for a minute.

LEMON: Sure.

GERGEN: The tradition in American politics is we need and want a right of center party and we need and want a left of center party. That's typically been our history. And for most of those years the two teams played between the 40 yard lines. You know, they were mostly mainstream kind of parties.

Now we see a break-away party occurring on the Republican side that's extremely radical. Not playing between the 40-yard lines, this is way down on the other end of the field. And it's something we haven't seen before, and it's why it's so danger -- because it is toxic. It's like a virus. It will spread.

[23:25:09] LEMON: Yeah, and --

GERGEN: Unless we deal with it.

LEMON: Yes, and they are scoring for the other team by doing what they're doing.

GERGEN: Exactly right.

LEMON: Thank you. Thank you both. I appreciate it.

GERGEN: Thank you, Don.

LEMON (on camera): Next, CNN exclusive, the new Homeland Security Secretary speaking out tight here about the threat of domestic terrorism facing the country and ahead how conspiracy theorist or conspiracies are flourishing in the pandemic.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

VANDERBILT: I had to call my mom. And I just told her, it's like we're all going to die. We're going to be owned by China. And I was like, I might have to pull my daughter out of school because they are going to take her. I was scared to death.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

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[23:30:00]

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LEMON (on camera): Tonight, CNN has an exclusive one-on-one interview with the new secretary of Homeland Security, Alejandro Mayorkas. He is the first Latino and the first immigrant to head the department. And as he begins his new job, Mayorkas calls domestic terrorism one of the greatest threats to the United States.

Here's CNN's Ana Cabrera.

(BEGIN VIDEO TAPE)

ANA CABRERA, CNN JOURNALIST AND ANCHOR: I want to start with the events of January 6th. The U.S. Capitol was attacked for the first time in more than 200 years by our fellow Americans. How will the events of that day inform your approach to your new role as Homeland Security secretary?

ALEJANDRO MAYORKAS, SECRETARY, DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY: Ana, let me start on a personal note, if I may. My parents brought my sister and me to this country to enjoy the freedoms of our country, to have the opportunities that a democracy presented.

The Capitol represents one of the pillars of our democracy. And to see the insurrection, to see the horrific acts of January 6th were not only personally devastating, but a commitment created in me, a commitment to redouble our efforts to fight hate and to fight one of the greatest threats that we face currently in our homeland, which is the threat of domestic terrorism.

CABRERA: I want to dig into that specifically, because DHS put out a bulletin just last week warning of a heightened threat of violent domestic extremism. How imminent is this threat and what is your plan to address it?

MAYORKAS: Ana, the threat is persistent. It was exemplified. It was illustrated horrifically by the events of January 6. The threat of domestic terrorism preceded that terrible day and it persists to this day.

What we in the Department of Homeland Security do is we gather intelligence, we gather information, and we share that with our state, local, tribal, and territorial partners, as we collectively in an all of government effort, not just the federal government, but all government across the country combat hate and the violence that accompanies it.

CABRERA: What is the biggest challenge in trying to combat this threat?

MAYORKAS: I think it is to identify where the line between hateful rhetoric and hateful action takes place, to be well ahead of the action before it occurs, and to stop it.

Our primary responsibility as the Department of Homeland Security is to protect the safety and security of the American people, and that means taking preventive actions before they occur, of course.

CABRERA: Canada just announced today that the Proud Boys would be designated as a terrorist group there. Will you be considering ways to limit the Proud Boys here in the U.S.?

MAYORKAS: I think our focus is on actions that violate our social norms, that violate our laws, and to ensure that those violations don't occur. That is where our focus is going to be.

CABRERA: I want to turn to the topic of immigration, because this is an issue that must be personal to you, as you mentioned at the top. Your mom's family fled the Nazis during the holocaust and settled in Cuba where you were born before. Of course, your family immigrated to the U.S. What does it mean to be the first Latino, the first immigrant to helm the Department of Homeland Security?

MAYORKAS: Ana, it is a privilege, it is an honor, and it is an awesome responsibility. It is an awesome responsibility to demonstrate not only from coast to coast and border to border, but around the world what this nation can be and what it is. It is a nation of laws and a nation of immigrants.

And I think the president's vision of adhering to our laws and adhering to our values and serving once again as a leader throughout the world is a vision that I am extraordinarily proud to be a part of in executing.

CABRERA: President Biden just named you to lead the task force to reunite families who were separated at the border during the Trump administration as far back as 2017. And as of last month, there are still hundreds of children who have not been reunited with their families, with their parents. How hard will it be to bring these families back together? Do you have a clear sense yet of just how many families need to be reunited?

MAYORKAS: Ana, however hard it is, we will get the job done. I was sworn in as the secretary of Homeland Security yesterday.

[23:35:00]

MAYORKAS: I had the privilege of being in the company of the president of the United States. And the president articulated yet again the urgency and the priority of this mission. The cruelty of the prior administration has come to an end. And now, we will demonstrate to the world what we as Americans are.

CABRERA: What was it like for you on a personal note to hear the cries we all heard on the tape of the children who were being taken from their parents and their family members?

MAYORKAS: Ana, uh, I am a father. I am a husband. I am a son. I am a brother. I have not heard before a pain as acute and heartbreaking as that. And it is our commitment to make sure that pain is not felt again.

CABRERA: President Biden has also launched a review of Trump immigration initiatives, including that remain in Mexico policy. We've been speaking with advocates who say they don't have answers for their clients who are stuck in limbo at the border. When will those people trapped in life or death situations in some cases get answers?

MAYORKAS: We, Ana, are addressing that with a due urgency, as well. The president has articulated clearly that the policy will come to an end, and we are tasked with the obligation of operationalizing effectively, intelligently, and carefully the end to that policy, and we are looking at that as recently as earlier today. I myself was involved in those discussions. The urgency of that also cannot be overstated.

CABRERA: One of the biggest threats facing everyday Americans today is the pandemic. You oversee FEMA, which is supporting vaccination sites right now, providing financial assistance and federal supplies to state and local governments. What does that effort look like? And what more can FEMA and DHS do to increase the number of people getting vaccinated?

MAYORKAS: We are setting up vaccine centers throughout the country. The president outlined the goal of a hundred centers in 30 days, and we are well underway. The president outlined an effort to vaccinate a hundred million people in a hundred days.

FEMA has dispensed $1.7 billion to state, local, tribal and territorial governments to assist them in that effort. This is an all of government, all of community effort, and we are proud to play a pivotal role in defeating this pandemic once and for all.

CABRERA: We've talked about the domestic security threat. I also want to ask you about an emerging foreign threat to U.S. national security right now. The Russian hack of the U.S. government and American corporations has been described as the modern day cyber equivalent of Pearl Harbor. Now there is evidence that the Chinese have exploited this same vulnerability.

What will it take to recover from this attack and to secure the country's cyber infrastructure?

MAYORKAS: Ana, there is no better catalyst, regrettably, for swift and decisive and bold action than an adverse event, which the solar winds hack the very sophisticated cyberattack that you referenced is.

And we as a government working with Congress are taking a look at what additional funding can be provided to enhance the security and safety of our federal infrastructure and our federal information systems and to work with the private sector in a public-private partnership to strengthen the harbor (ph) hygiene of critical infrastructure throughout the United States of America.

In the cyber arena specifically, there's a saying that we're only as strong as our weakest link, and we need to strengthen our weakest link to make sure that we as a nation are safe and secure from these pernicious attacks by our adversaries.

(END VIDEO TAPE)

LEMON (on camera): Ana Cabrera, thank you so much for bringing us that interview.

Isolated. Alone. Next, we are digging into how conspiracies have thrived during the coronavirus pandemic. Plus, how the Pentagon is combatting extremism within their own ranks.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[23:40:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON (on camera): Conspiracy theorists and extremist groups emboldened during the Trump presidency have come under scrutiny in the wake of the Capitol insurrection. But the same question keeps coming up. Why are so many Americans falling down the rabbit hole of conspiracies?

To find an answer to that question, CNN's Donie O'Sullivan talked to one mother, who recently stopped believing in QAnon. She describes the influence the pandemic had on her beliefs. Listen to this.

[23:45:00]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ASHLEY VANDERBILT, FORMER QANON BELIEVER: I think I spent a lot of time this year isolated from everybody. You know, I've just been home a lot. I lost my job last April, in 2020. And I was super depressed. And I think, in a way, I probably lost touch with a little bit of reality and almost like common sense. And so I'm not so much embarrassed for what I believe, but, I mean, I feel foolish.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON (on camera): I want to talk about this now with Adam Enders. He is an assistant professor of political science at the University of Louisville. Adam, thank you so much for joining.

This country was incredibly polarized before the pandemic. When people became isolated and anxious and had more time on their hands to spend online, how does that make them more vulnerable to conspiracies like QAnon?

ADAM ENDERS, ASSISTANT PROFESSOR OF POLITICAL SCIENCE, UNIVERSITY OF LOUISVILLE: That's exactly right. Generally speaking, when people feel anxious or have any sort of negative feeling, they do things even unconsciously to try and alleviate those negative feelings.

So when it comes to the pandemic, we got anxiety that is being produced by feelings of uncertainty, of powerlessness, and of helplessness that are fairly straightforward.

So, as you can imagine, as people are losing jobs, losing loved ones, they can't navigate life in the way that they've become accustomed to. They're not sure when things are going to go back to normal and all of these sorts of pain starts so set in. Anxiety ramps up and there's this question of how can I alleviate some of this -- some of this anxiety.

And conspiracy theories are useful for this because they help sort of impose some structure on an otherwise messy world.

LEMON: Uh-huh.

ENDERS: So take, for example, this conspiracy theory that was really popular earlier in the pandemic, in March, for example, that the coronavirus threat was being strategically exaggerated by Democrats to harm Donald Trump's re-election chances.

Well, you know, believing in an idea like that doesn't really make the -- make coronavirus go away, but it could make people feel a little bit better in terms of the threat being a little weaker than it really is, the deaths being inflated.

This is more of a political kind of thing, so conspiracy theories end up helping people feel a little bit better in these kinds of stressful times.

LEMON: But it also didn't help to have someone at the top helping to spread or promoting conspiracy theories, as well, really elevating it and giving them a platform.

ENDERS: Absolutely. You know, one thing that any political scientist can tell you is that the parameter, the basic tenor of political discourse, is set by elites. It's a top-down phenomenon where our lawmakers and our leaders -- we kind of follow the leader and what's being talked about and how it's being talked about.

So the more that we have visible people that are trafficking in conspiracy theories and misinformation, the more rank and file supporters of those individuals are going to think, well, there must be something to this, and start adopting those beliefs on their own.

LEMON: So Adam, Ronan Farrow reporting this week about one of the Capitol rioters, a mother of eight who was radicalized in part because she was outraged over the COVID mask mandates. Did the backlash against COVID restrictions play a role?

ENDERS: Certainly. So, we know that conspiratorial predispositions and populism and anti-governmental kinds of sentiments are all wrapped up together. They are very difficult to disentangle. So it makes a lot of sense that the more people believe that the government is trying to control them, that they would turn to conspiracy theories that posit exactly that.

So, you know, these things sort of directly feed into one another. Again, we have the top-down element, as well as this sort of interpersonal -- how is the pandemic personally affecting you element all pushing people in the same direction.

LEMON (on camera): Adam, I want to play another part of Donie's interview, and then we're going to ask you about it. Here it is.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

VANDERBILT: I mean, what have we heard the last four or five years? Don't watch the news, fake news, fake news. I don't watch the news. I don't read newspapers. I don't do anything. I've always been someone that you just tell me what to do and I do it. I grew up being told we are Republicans, so I've always been that straight red ticket.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON (on camera): So this goes along with what I asked you earlier. You know, with trust in legitimate information sources becoming so damaged during the Trump presidency, how many people are being introduced to conspiracies by friends and by family?

ENDERS: Well, when you don't really know who to trust or what information to trust, and of course -- by the way, you know, most of what we know about politics and things that happen in the world is second hand.

[23:50:03]

ENDERS: Via news media, right? Most of us can directly experience those things. The more that we distrust the media and other secondary sources that we don't personally know, the more we turn to what we do know, which is our friends and our family members, which is not always the worst thing, but our friends and family members aren't probably public health experts.

And your average blogger online or somebody that is replying to comments on Reddit, for example, are probably not people that have the highest quality misinformation.

LEMON: Adam Enders, thank you. It deserves a much longer conversation. We'll have you back. Thank you so much. We appreciate it.

ENDERS: Thanks.

LEMON: Thank you. More than 180 people charged in the Capitol riot so far, 22 of them either current or former military. But Pentagon says they're stepping up to combat conspiracies within their ranks. More, next.

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[23:55:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: The Pentagon is moving to address the issue of extremism in the ranks of the military. The defense secretary, Lloyd Austin, is ordering a staggered pause in operations known as a stand-down, so military leaders can get a handle on the level of extremism among the troops.

Officials call the Capitol insurrection a wake-up for the Pentagon over the number of current or former military members facing charges.

I want to discuss now with CNN national security analyst Shawn Turner. Shawn, thank you. Appreciate you joining.

SHAWN TURNER, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: Thanks, Don.

LEMON: So, Austin held a meeting today with all the service secretaries and the chairman of the Joint Chiefs to discuss extremism within the ranks. Do you think this move is warranted?

TURNER: Absolutely, Don. Look, I think that Secretary Austin, what he is doing is, is he is sending a strong message that he understands that what we're seeing across society with regard to violent extremism is somewhat a reflection of what we're seeing in the military.

Everybody knows that the military is somewhat of a reflection of society. So when we see these trends, we expect to see them on the military side, too.

The problem, Don, is when we see these things on the military side, the stakes are much higher. Look, you know, one of the things we're really good at in this country is training war fighters. We take young people. We train them to be -- we give them leadership and problem- solving skills. We teach them marksmanship, tactics, strategy. We empower them. We embolden them to be able to take charge and get things done.

So in a military context, that's great. It's exactly what we need in a military context. But when you take those very same skills and you apply them in extremist activities outside of the military, what you end up with is a very dangerous situation where you have law enforcement officials who are going up against people who are much more effective because of what they've learned in the military.

You also have these people who are much more effective at mounting attacks against our government and against our fellow citizens. It's a very dangerous sort of mixture. I think Secretary Austin's actions today sort of reflect that.

LEMON: As of tonight, Shawn, more than 180 people have been federally charged for their involvement in the U.S. Capitol siege. Now, out of those, at least 22 are either formerly or currently associated with the military. And that number could grow.

TURNER: Yeah.

LEMON: The chief Pentagon spokesperson, John Kirby, says that their involvement was a wake-up call for the department. Why did it take an attack on the Capitol for this to be noticed by the general public? Did the brass and folks inside the military not notice this? Why did it come to this?

TURNER: Well, you know, Don, when I talk about extremism in the military, I don't talk about it growing or increasing. I talk about it being revealed, being unmasked, because we know that it's there.

You know, Don, you've talked about this for the last four years in terms of what's happened to this country with regard to people who have these views feeling more emboldened to reveal themselves. And so what's happening in the military is the same thing that's happening in society.

You know, these people for the longest time, they kept their views to themselves. They stayed in the shadows. But for reasons that we've all talked about with regard to the last administration and the former president, these people felt more emboldened to come out and to reveal themselves.

And so, you know, I think that certainly the Pentagon has some responsibility to make absolutely sure that they're watching for these things, and I think that's what Secretary Austin is doing. But, you know, it's not terribly surprising because we're seeing this all across society. I think we're going to continue to see it. So this is a good move on the part of the secretary.

LEMON (on camera): Speaking of the secretary, as a lieutenant colonel in 1995, he was, he oversaw operations for 82nd Airborne when there was a racially- motivated double murder involving members of that unit.

During his confirmation hearing, Austin discussed what he learned from that incident and signalled that it would inform his approach. I want you to watch this, and then we'll discuss.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LLOYD AUSTIN, DEFENSE SECRETARY OF THE UNITED STATES: If leadership is not in touch with the people they are leading, these kinds of things can happen. And I don't think that -- that this is a thing that -- that you can put a Band-Aid on and fix and leave alone. I think that training needs to go on, you know, routinely, because things change, the types of things that you're looking for change.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON (on camera): Shawn, is Austin the right person to handle rooting out extremism from the military?

TURNER: You know, Don, he absolutely is.