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Don Lemon Tonight
GOP Lost The Constitutionality Argument; Donald Trump Not Pleased By His Lawyers; Sen. Chris Van Hollen (D-MD) Is Interviewed About The Reaction Inside The Senate Floor After Video Of Insurrection Was Played; Trump Defense Team Weak On Defending Their Client; Rep. Jamie Raskin Shaken By The January 6th Riot. Aired 10-11p ET
Aired February 09, 2021 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
CHRIS CUOMO, CNN HOST: Special coverage tonight, we'll be back Midnight Eastern, special live, late night edition of PRIME TIME.
But now, it's time for the big show, "CNN TONIGHT" with the big man, D. Lemon.
DON LEMON, CNN HOST: I got to tell you, I've never seen anything like it. I was stunned by the Trump lawyers' performance. Just stunned!
[22:00:00]
It was awful. Let's be honest. It was awful
CUOMO: They don't have the law. They don't have the facts. They don't have the pedigree. And what they do have overcomes all of that. They have the jury rigged in their favor.
LEMON: Yes.
CUOMO: So, they can do as bad a job as you think they did, and they're still in better position.
LEMON: I'm not saying it's going to affect the outcome. I was just surprised at the rambling and the stories and I thought that they were making the other side's case. And maybe that was just the strategy --
(CROSSTALK)
CUOMO: They had to. On one level --
LEMON: -- on what they definitely know.
CUOMO: One level they have to.
LEMON: Right.
CUOMO: On one level they have to say look, the election was decided. And everybody did what they were supposed to do. All these people are acting on their own. They're smart. They don't need someone to tell them what to do, so he didn't incite them, he didn't tell them what to do. This is what they wanted to do. I get it. They just didn't do it well. I do believe that the most powerful point of this because you're, of
course, right. You have never seen anything like this before. We have never experienced anything like this before. It is a low point of our politics in our lifetime.
You have men and women who are witnesses and potential victims of an act that they refuse to hold someone they know is responsible to account for.
LEMON: Yes.
CUOMO: They refuse. And I really believe the House managers won't do it because it's too incendiary. This is all about votes so you'll piss these people off and make it more likely they vote against you. But I really do believe this is the question, Don.
Who needed to die? If they had gotten Pelosi, God forbid, if they had gotten Schiff, if they had gotten Pence, God forbid, would you vote to convict then? Who did they have to get? I would be pointing. How about her? How about him? Well, this have done it for you. You guys eat lunch a lot together. What if he died?
LEMON: Yes.
CUOMO: And I really think that's where we are right now.
LEMON: Well, I said -- I said last night what I believe. And the constitutionality doesn't matter. We know it's constitutional because when he was impeached, he was in office. When they sent those impeachment papers off, he was in office. So, this whole idea about you can't impeach a sitting -- a private citizen, he wasn't a private citizen. So that is all B.S., and we know it.
But the other part is, what I said, if there were -- if it weren't for the lie. Not just -- we're not even talking about the day of. I'm talking about the phone call to Georgia. The lies over and over on social media --
(CROSSTALK)
CUOMO: For weeks and weeks.
LEMON: -- for weeks and weeks. Even, I mean, you want to say year, so you can say a year where he talked about if I lose this election it's going to be rigged. He incited it from the very beginning. It's obvious, but I don't know if many in the Senate will have the courage and the you know what fortitude to stand up.
CUOMO: I have to tell you.
LEMON: And do the right thing.
CUOMO: I think you're probably right. I just don't understand it. My political brain doesn't understand what they're doing. This base argument doesn't work for me. One, punitively most people who describe themselves as Democrat or Republican vote that way regardless. OK? LEMON: Yes.
CUOMO: And this is your last chance.
LEMON: I understand it.
CUOMO: To get your party back from this guy.
LEMON: I understand what's going on. I understand what's going on.
(CROSSTALK)
CUOMO: And I don't get the calculation.
LEMON: I understand it really well. I understand it really well.
CUOMO: I just don't get it.
LEMON: There are a lot of people who as I have been telling you forever, there are a lot of people in this country who are afraid of what is happening. They're afraid of the diversity in this country.
CUOMO: They'll vote for him anyway.
LEMON: They're going to -- maybe. But he has -- he was the most vocal in all of the things that they're afraid of. And so, they found -- they see themselves in him with that particular part. So, they prioritize that part over the discrimination of other people, over all of the crazy rhetoric that he did.
That's what they -- that's what they prioritize. And so, they want to continue with that America, and in an American where you can be a white supremacist. Where you can wear a Camp Auschwitz sweatshirt. Where you can do run shot over the Constitution --
(CROSSTALK)
CUOMO: But who, anybody like that, who would they ever vote for --
LEMON: -- because --
CUOMO: -- except someone on that side of the aisle --
LEMON: No. No, no, no.
CUOMO: -- who's pitching them that --
LEMON: They are not because those -- because they look at those people as rhinos. And because this was the person who stood up for them the most in that horrible way, the worst part of their personality --
CUOMO: Yes, I get it he was the worst. I'm with you.
LEMON: -- and being. That's it. That's why. So.
CUOMO: I mean, I still don't get the political calculus, but I really do believe.
LEMON: Yes.
CUOMO: I have, you know, Bella, Mario and Cha-Cha, you know, little weird with the bedtime with Cha-Cha, but they were watching tonight --
LEMON: Yes.
CUOMO: -- and ordinarily, that's only because they're really jonesing to see you if it happens, but they needed to watch tonight with my in- laws in one place with Christine in another one, because we're split like every other family, who is in school and who isn't in school.
LEMON: Yes.
CUOMO: They will never hopefully see anything like this again --
LEMON: Well.
CUOMO: -- where people who were almost victimized by an insurrection refuse to hold the man without question --
[22:05:02]
LEMON: I want to be --
CUOMO: -- potentially part of the problem and they won't hold him to account.
LEMON: Look I got to run because we're going over here. And I want to get you on the air at midnight. You know, I don't want to go over.
CUOMO: Sure, you can go over. Take as much time as you like.
LEMON: Here's the thing. Because I love, you know, your kids, and I love my nephews and nieces and great nephews, I would like a world where our country, where this doesn't happen again. But if this -- if they -- if the Senate and the Republicans in the Senate and the Congress -- in Congress keep going to where they're going, yes, there's going to be a repeat.
We weren't -- we said this in the news forever. You and I have been talking about this. About ignoring what's happening in this country, ignoring the division. Ignoring the inflammatory rhetoric, that it was going to lead to something that was much more dangerous and physical. And it did. So, if this continues on, if they allow this, they continue to be complicit, then they will live in a world where something like this will happen again. And that's what I got to say. I got to run.
CUOMO: Luckily, I know your kids.
LEMON: I love you.
CUOMO: And I know my kids and I know they're better than we are. I love you, D. Lemon. LEMON: That's true, especially better than you. They're better than you are. I'll see you at midnight. See you soon. Thank you.
CUOMO: Low bar. I love you, D. Lemon. I'll see you later.
LEMON (on camera): This is -- I love you too. This is CNN TONIGHT. What a day. I'm Don Lemon.
Did it -- did it look like a movie? Was it chilling? Horrifying? Disgraceful? It was real. You know why we know it was real? Because it happened just a month ago, and we can't pretend that it didn't. You've seen it. You've never seen it like this.
A president is called to insurrection and the violence that he inspired. Laid out by the impeachment managers as his second trial began today. I'm tired, you all, but -- I feel like I'm just yelling into the ocean sometimes when I look at what our lawmakers are doing. How they're ignoring what's right in front of their faces. How they're making it worse for you and me, for this country. How they're bowing to conspiracy theorists and to the cult of personality.
It's tiring. It's sad. It's embarrassing. And it's un-American. But we have to press on. Don't we? We have to all press on. We can be weary, but we can't be tired. So, it started with the big lie, the lie that he had been pushing for months, the big lie that the election was stolen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: We will stop the steal.
(CROWD CHEERING)
TRUMP: Today I will lay out just some of the evidence proving that we won this election and we won it by a landslide. This was not a close election, and after this, we're going to walk down and I'll be there with you. We're going to walk down. We're going to walk down to the capitol.
UNKNOWN: Yes.
UNKNOWN: Just take the capitol.
UNKNOWN: Take the capitol.
UNKNOWN: Let's take it.
UNKNOWN: Let's take the capitol.
UNKNOWN: We are going to the capitol where our problems are. It's that direction.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON (on camera): So much for all of that blue lives matter stuff. Huh? And respecting the flag. The crowd incited by the president's own words marching to the capitol, hunting for the vice president after Trump slams him in a tweet as lawmakers hide behind closed doors.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CROWD: Treason! Treason! Treason! Treason!
UNKNOWN: Pence is a traitor.
UNKNOWN: Traitor Pence.
UNKNOWN: Traitor Pence!
UNKNOWN: Traitor Pence.
UNKNOWN: Defend your constitution. Defend your Constitution.
CROWD: Stop the steal! Stop the steal! Stop the steal!
[22:10:05]
UNKNOWN: They're leaving. They're leaving. They're leaving.
CROWD: Break it down! Break it down! Break it down!
UNKNOWN: Break it down.
UNKNOWN: Whoa. Let's get down.
UNKNOWN: Get down. Get down.
UNKNOWN: Everybody, stay down. Get down.
UNKNOWN: Let's go. Come on.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON (on camera): A writer shot to death in the crowd as our elected representatives are forced to run for their lives. Police officers attacked by that mob.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNKNOWN: Traitors!
CROWD: Fight for Trump! Fight for Trump!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON (on camera): Blue lives matter, huh, law and order, law and order. Blue lives matter. Respect the flags. Respect law enforcement. Why don't you just comply? Don't you dare even say that again if you can stand by after that video and give Donald Trump of all people, Donald Trump, and all people of all people, and that mob, and his mob of past. If you can do that, I don't ever want to hear that again. I don't want to hear that from you. I don't want to hear family values from you. I don't want to hear
respect police officers from you. Don't want to hear it. No moral high ground to stand on. Look who is on your side there. There have been a lot of lies. We've been warning you about all the lies but yes, it's OK. You don't have to listen to his lies. well he's just, you know, he's just talking. No.
The former president was a liar and is a liar, liar, lies by his enablers who even after the capitol insurrection tried to overturn the Electoral College vote. The problem with lies is that they fall apart. They always fall apart. The truth always comes out.
And the truth of today is that there is no amount of lawyering in the world, even if it had been good, which it wasn't, no amount of lawyering in the world that can ever gloss over what the president and that mob did. David Cicilline getting to the heart of the matter. Would any of this had happened if it hadn't been for Donald Trump?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. DAVID CICILLINE (D-RI): Does anyone in this chamber honestly believe that but for the conduct of President Trump that that charge in the article of impeachment, that that attack at the capitol would have occurred? Does anybody believe that?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON (on camera): Does anybody believe that? Do you believe that? That's been my whole point. If it hadn't been for the big lie, the sustained lie, they wouldn't have showed up at the capitol. And then the former president's legal team took their turn to make their case. Right? Instead, they made a hot mess.
Bruce Castor offering a rambling defense. Heavy on the rambling. Light on the defense. Praising the House managers. Sucking up to senators. Detouring along the way to talk about record players.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
[22:14:55]
BRUCE CASTOR JR., FORMER PRESIDENT TRUMP'S LEGAL COUNSEL: The House managers who spoke earlier were brilliant speakers. Senators of the United States, they're not ordinary people. They're extraordinary people in the technical sense extraordinary people.
Senator Dirksen recorded a series of lectures that my parents had on a record, and we still know what records are. Right? On the thing you put the needle down on and you play it. Nebraska, you're going to hear, is quite a judicial thinking place.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON (on camera): Nebraska is a judicial-thinking place. Sources telling CNN the former president was almost screaming he was so unhappy with Castor. Just imagine what he thought of this. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CASTOR: President Trump no longer is in office. The object of the Constitution has been achieved. He was removed by the voters.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON (on camera): Defending the former president who pushed the big lie that the election was stolen by saying he lost the election. That's logical. Right? The president's own lawyer admitting that he lost and going on to argue that he could be arrested instead of impeached if he committed a crime.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CASTOR: After he's out of office, you go and arrest him.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON (on camera): That's quite a defense. And for reasons that aren't entirely clear, shown the other lawyer concluded his argument by reading a poem.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DAVID SCHOEN, FORMER PRESIDENT TRUMP'S LEGAL COUNSEL: Longfellow wrote, sail forth, sail forth into the sea, o ship. Through wind and wave, right onward steer. The moistened eye, the trembling lip, are not the signs of doubt or fear.
We know what Master laid thy keel, what workmen wrought thy ribs of steel, who made each mast, and sail, and rope, what anvils rang, what hammers beat, in what a forge and what a heat were shaped the anchors of thy hope. Fear not each sudden sound and shock, 'tis of the wave -- excuse me, 'tis of the wave and not the rock.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: OK. OK. Well, one GOP senator telling CNN Republican senators universally thought the former president's attorneys were, and I quote, "awful," and added, again another quote, "no wonder why the other guys quit." Senator Bill Cassidy who broke ranks to vote with Democrats today saying this about the president's defense.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. BILL CASSIDY (R-LA): If you listen to it, it speaks for itself. It was disorganized, random. It had nothing -- they talked about many things, but they didn't talk about the issue at hand, and so if you -- if I'm an impartial juror and I'm trying to make a decision based upon the facts as presented on this issue, then the House managers did a much better job.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON (on camera): But all this outcry from Republicans. Right? This is what happens. This is what happens when you defend the former president on the merits, when you cannot defend him on the merits, when you hide behind the fig leaf that it's unconstitutional to impeach a former president.
They're not confronting the facts of actually what happened on January 6th. Not confronting that at all. The president's own words and actions. Not doing that. And now after the president's lawyers tanked and the video evidence was so clear, they don't even have their fig leaf farce of an argument to hide themselves behind.
By supporting the former president, his enablers are not only on the side of the people he incited to storm the capitol who are being arrested by the hundreds now. Who wanted to hang Mike Pence, erected gallows, you know, with the news? They're on the same side as his bubbling legal team, too. The mob shows how morally bankrupt that support is. And the legal crew shows how intellectually bankrupt it is.
What you don't condone, you enable. What you don't condone, you enable. And every one of those senators has a chance to condemn the former president's actions. He called himself the law-and-order president. Well now they have a chance to truly stand up for law and order. And what are they doing? What will they do?
[22:19:58]
Senate Republicans lost the vote today on whether the trial is constitutional and the president is said to be furious about his defense team. You know what's not going your way when your own attorneys -- your own attorney praises the other guy's case.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CASTOR: I'll be quite frank with you. We changed what we were going to do on account that we thought that the House managers presentation was well-done.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON (on camera): So, the former President Trump watching the impeachment trial on TV in Florida and sources say he was almost screaming at the lackluster performance of his defense team but still confident that he'll be acquitted.
Lot to discuss now with CNN's senior political commentator David Axelrod is here, and political commentator Amanda Carpenter as well.
I mean, it really doesn't have a defense. I don't know why he would be screaming. What else does he expect? But good evening to both of you.
David, I'm going to start with you. So, infuriated, Republicans, that's what they say about him. Republicans and his own lawyers are praising the Democrats' case and they lost a Republican vote today on the constitutionality question of this. We're going to see how this end, but maybe this shows you that don't write off a trial before it even begins, or is it a done deal?
DAVID AXELROD, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yes. Count me a skeptic on that.
LEMON: I'm with you.
AXELROD: Look, I think I mean, the fact is those guys were awful and they got 44 votes for the unconstitutional argument despite the fact that they were completely out in the ozone.
[22:25:02]
You know, he could have thrown Vinnie Gambini from my cousin Vinnie there, you know, the Joe Pesci character, the fake lawyer character. He could have thrown him out there, and he still would have gotten 44 votes today because this is safe haven, safe harbor for these Republicans who don't want to defend what the president did, but don't want to offend their voters.
And so, this is a safe haven for them to say this is unconstitutional. We don't like what the president did, but this is unconstitutional, and, therefore, we're not going to participate.
LEMON: Amanda, do you think that some of the Republican senators had even seen that video? I mean, they've made an art form out of avoiding unpleasant truths and you know, they're not watching, you know, they're not watching it up on Fox because it's not really playing out as much as other places, right wing media not covering it that much in the bubbles. What do you think?
AMANDA CARPENTER, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I think the single most stunning revelation that came out of the events today wasn't another terrible performance by another pair of Trump lawyers. It's what Senator Roy Blunt said afterwards when he said, I think that's the longest time I've ever spent looking at the video of what happened. That video was only 13 minutes.
LEMON: Yes.
CARPENTER: Roy Blunt is a member of Senate Republican leadership, and you are telling me you have not sat and looked at the video evidence of what happened as an attack on your House for more than 13 minutes? That is stunning to me. How much of a bubble are these senators living in? No wonder it's easy to screw up your eyes and say OK, nothing has changed. We're not looking at anything. Donald Trump is innocent.
No wonder. You haven't looked at what has happened. And so, you know, I don't want to hear much more about how terrible Trump's lawyers are, because I think the Republican senators, it's easier for them to talk about how bad of a case they presented today than it is to grapple with the facts which are super simple.
LEMON: But Amanda --
CARPENTER: I mean, it really, it only boils down to two things. Right? Donald Trump summoned the mob to Washington, sent them to Congress and then after the events praised them for what they did. It's open and shut. But apparently --
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: But Amanda --
AXELROD: Well, you know --
LEMON: Hang on. But should it be that surprising? I mean, that is -- Amanda, you are -- that's the definition of privilege. It doesn't affect you.
CARPENTER: Yes.
LEMON: You don't have to be bothered by it so therefore it doesn't even seep into your consciousness or your eyes unless you're confronted with it and then you are shocked by wait, whoa, what are you talking about? I didn't know that.
CARPENTER: Yes.
LEMON: No, not me. That's --
(CROSSTALK)
CARPENTER: But the thing is yes --
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: That's the world we're living in.
AXELROD: Hey guys --
CARPENTER: They can avoid this question, they can vote to acquit Trump, but this question, this reality will follow them for the rest of their lives.
LEMON: I don't disagree.
AXELROD: Yes, listen.
CARPENTER: Because history is being written right now.
LEMON: David, go ahead.
AXELROD: Well, can I just say, you, first of all, they don't really need a video. They were there. OK?
CARPENTER: Yes.
AXELROD: They were there. They know exactly what happened. And if you don't believe me --
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: But they didn't see what was happening outside --
AXELROD: -- just ask --
LEMON: They don't see what was happening outside, David, with the cops, maybe, but go on. Sorry.
AXELROD: Yes. But Mitch McConnell himself stood on the floor of the Senate and basically indicted the president for his role in the thing. And said he was the guy who lit the fuse. And he voted with the 44 today calling this proceeding unconstitutional. Why? Because they are elected leaders, and the emphasis is on elected.
They are marching to get out in front of the crowd. You know, the Republican -- 80 percent of Republicans or more support -- you know, are opposed to the proceedings. They don't want to get crossways with their constituents and so, you know, they don't see what they don't want to see. I don't even think it's about privilege, Don. I think it's about -- it is about willful ignorance.
LEMON: Ignorance.
AXELROD: They don't want to know. They don't want to face it. They don't want to have to confront the facts and the easiest way to not confront the facts is to say well, the whole thing is unconstitutional. He is down in Florida. This is a waste of time. You know, what he did wasn't good, but you know, it's time to move on.
And that's what we're going to hear no matter how dramatic the presentation is from Democrats. And I expect it will be as powerful or more powerful than it was today. I think you're going to get to the same place on Friday afternoon or Saturday or Sunday or whenever they come to a conclusion because these guys are not going to get athwart their base, because they want to get reelected. I mean, it's just that simple.
LEMON: Yes. Well thank you both. Listen, I -- they have the privilege of not having to know or having that position. That's a great place to be in if you can live in that world. Thank you very much. I appreciate it. I'll see both of you.
Democrats showing a chilling 13-minute video of the attack on the capitol. What was it like to relive it? I'm going to ask a top senator. That's next.
[22:30:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON (voice over): I'll see you. Bye-bye.
CARPENTER: All right. Bye.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON (on camera): So, House Democrats making their case against the former president with a chilling 13-minute video montage of clips from the deadly insurrection at the capitol. Here's some of what senators saw during today's impeachment trial. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNKNOWN: Madame Speaker, the Vice President and the United States Senate.
SEN. MITCH MCCONNELL (R-KY), MINORITY LEADER: But my colleagues nothing before us proves illegality anywhere near the massive scale, the massive scale that would have tipped the entire election.
UNKNOWN: We'll stand in recess until the call of the chair.
SEN. JAMES LANKFORD (R-OK): We'll pause.
UNKNOWN: Protesters are in the building.
LANKFORD: Thank you.
UNKNOWN: Pence is a traitor.
UNKNOWN: Traitor Pence.
UNKNOWN: Traitor Pence.
UNKNOWN: Traitor Pence.
[22:35:03]
UNKNOWN: Is this the Senate?
UNKNOWN: Where the fuck are they?
UNKNOWN: Guys (Inaudible).
UNKNOWN: There's got to be something in here we can fucking use against these scum bags.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON (on camera): So, joining me now, one of the lawmakers who watched this play out today and on January 6th, Democratic Senator Chris Van Hollen of Maryland. Senator, thank you so much for joining. I really appreciate it.
We're told there was complete silence in the Senate chamber when that video ended. You were all witnesses to the insurrection. What was it like to watch the attack play out at the scene of the crime?
SEN. CHRIS VAN HOLLEN (D-MD): Well, Don, watching that video in the Senate chamber today, my blood pressure went up. My anger level rose. It, of course, brought back that terrible day, January 6th, but the video also captured a lot of things happening on the outside. Some of which we've seen since. Some of which we haven't. And it also provided a timeline.
Because when you're in the middle of it, when the capitol police say we're on lockdown, when they say, you know, to shelter in place, or go to this particular place to be safe, you are not keeping track of the timeline of every Trump tweet, and what this laid out so clearly was in the middle of that mob attack, you still had Donald Trump telling them to go after Mike Pence. Afterwards telling them that they were great patriots and to remember this day.
The reason we're having this trial is because America needs to remember that day of January 6th, and we need to make sure that nothing like it ever happens again.
LEMON: Senator, that video featured Pence, McConnell, Lankford, the Senate floor itself. It seemed like it was designed to be personal and remind the GOP that the insurrectionists breached their chamber. Could you see how your Republican colleagues were reacting watching this?
VAN HOLLEN: I think a lot of my colleagues were in -- were stunned by the fact that that all was put together in the way it was. Again, laying out that timeline as to where they were, what was happening outside the capitol, the fact that you had this violent mob attacking the capitol place police, calling them every name in the book.
And they should have been embarrassed by the fact that after that video they still voted not to continue this trial and not to hear the whole rest of the story. And it suggests that they really are afraid to face the facts or they're afraid as David Axelrod was saying, of their constituents.
This is a time you would think they'd be afraid to go home. And tell their children how they plan to vote, because the reality is this is a moment people need to stand up and defend the Constitution and defend the country.
LEMON: Did you get a sense that some of -- many of them or some of them had not even taken the time to see that video like Roy Blunt said?
VAN HOLLEN: Yes. Look, I think a lot of them seemed unaware of the overall facts or pretended to. You heard a lot of them bad mouthing the president's lawyers. Look, they had an indefensible case, but there's no doubt that it was a pathetic showing. Meandering, wondering.
I mean, for the defense lawyers to say that they were surprised at the strength of the House manager's case, it just sort of, gave up the game for Donald Trump and the president. You can understand why he was upset at them, but they didn't have anything to defend him with, and that is the root of this issue. And that's why it's going to be very important for the country. That we pay attention to the next four days as the House managers lay out the full case.
LEMON: Senator Van Hollen, thank you very much. I hope to have you back soon. I appreciate it.
VAN HOLLEN Good to be with you.
LEMON: My next guest was quoted a lot by Trump's lawyers to prove their case, but he says they not only got it wrong. They used it to be misleading and the Democrats noticed.
[22:40:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON (on camera): -- very much. And again, we have some technical issues. So, let's hope this entire interview works out here and gets on the air.
So, these Trump lawyers completely miscited one, you know, you in their brief, right? And they got caught.
George Conway was on with Anderson Cooper tonight saying that it was an example of how shoddy their lawyering is. Do you agree with that?
BRIAN KALT, PROFESSOR OF LAW, MICHIGAN STATE UNIVERSITY: I think it was. When I was a judicial law clerk, if someone cited an authority and you go and look and the authority says the opposite of what they're citing it for, that reflects poorly on the lawyers.
LEMON: Are they arguing that it would be better to just leave the former president impeached and never have a trial to acquit him? Is that really what the president wants? What is it that they want to happen?
KALT: Well, I think what they were arguing for was that the Senate should dismiss the case because there's no jurisdiction at this point, which the Senate could do. They've done it in the past when a senator was impeached and then they decided you can't impeach a senator so they dismissed it.
But usually if someone is out of office and they don't want to continue with a case, they say we don't want to continue. We could, but we don't want to. So, there's precedence. Even when they dismiss the case, they act like they have jurisdiction, and of course Trump's lawyers didn't -- didn't address any of that.
[22:44:59]
LEMON: I want to ask you about the constitutionality part because it's been bothering me all day. Now that there's been this vote on constitutionality, I want to look at what that means for senators going forward.
For example, if a judge in a court case rules that a gun is admissible, jurors in that case can't vote to acquit based on the idea that they don't think the gun should be evidence. Right? Does that same thing apply to senators in the next phase of this case that, well just because they don't believe it's unconstitutional, they think it's unconstitutional that can't vote in the way that they should vote?
KALT: They can vote to acquit on whatever grounds they want. And in the 1876 case that we heard about, that's what they did. Most of the senators said there's no jurisdiction. I'm going to stick with that. There were some that said OK, well, I didn't think there was jurisdiction. We had the vote. I lost. Now I'll get to the merits. But there were only three senators that did that back in 1876.
I don't think we're even going to have three senators do it that time. They're going to stick to their guns and they're going to say there's no jurisdiction, or even if there is jurisdiction, I don't think this is the right thing to do because he's already gone, and then avoid having to answer the question of whether what Trump did was wrong or not.
LEMON: So, answer this for me. Any senator who votes to acquit because they believe the proceedings are unconstitutional and is violating its oath -- violating his or her oath to follow the law?
KALT: No. I don't think so. I think that they can continue and say this case should be thrown out. I mean, this isn't -- this isn't like a legal case. Precedent doesn't work the same way in the Senate.
LEMON: It's a political case.
KALT: Yes. There's that political component. So that's what they're going to do.
LEMON (on camera): So, one of the attorneys, Schoen tried to say that it's all about disenfranchising Trump's voters. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SCHOEN: They've made clear in public statements that what they want to really accomplish here in the name of the Constitution is to bar Donald Trump from ever running for political office again, but this is an affront to the Constitution no matter who they target today.
It means nothing less than the denial of the right to vote and the independent right for a candidate to run for elective political office, guaranteed by the first and 14th amendments to the United States Constitution. Under the guise of impeachment as a tool to disenfranchise.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON (on camera): So, it clearly says in the constitution a president can be removed and barred from running again. Do you know what he's talking about?
KALT: What he's saying is that it's not the right thing to do. Even if they can do it, the voters should be able to choose. And that's not an argument about jurisdiction. That's an argument about what they should do, not what they can do. But it's one that I expect you'll hear Republican senators saying they agree about. Let the voters decide, they'll say.
LEMON: I want to read something that you tweeted out and you wrote. Don't like when your opponents use unconstitutional as a synonym for stuff I dislike. And it says make sure you don't do that, especially if you don't need to. What happens if the Constitution keeps being used as a political prop? KALT: Well, the problem is constitutional arguments are complicated.
There's usually something on both sides. So, it's very easy for senators, for lawyers, for anyone, really, to look at these arguments and say you know what? There's arguments on both sides. I don't know what to believe.
I'm just going to pick the one that gets me the result that I want. And that's fine. I'm not going to try and figure out the best legal answer. I'm going to try and find out the result that I want. And that's how people do it. I don't think they should, but that's how it's done.
LEMON: Professor Kalt, we appreciate it. Thank you so much.
KALT: Thank you.
LEMON: The capitol riot was personal for the people who were there. Lead impeachment manager Congressman Jamie Raskin making sure that the world knows it. You need to hear his closing statement. That's next.
[22:50:00]
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LEMON (on camera): Congressman Jamie Raskin speaking from the heart about the nightmare he and his colleagues in Congress and his own family lived through on January 6th. Listen to what he says.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. JAMIE RASKIN (D-MD): Distinguished members of the Senate, my youngest daughter Tabitha was there with me on Wednesday, January 6th. It was the day after we buried her brother, our son Tommy, the saddest day of our lives.
The reason they came with me that Wednesday, January 6th was because they wanted to be together with me in the middle of a devastating week for our family. And I told them I had to go back to work, because we were counting electoral votes that day on January 6th. It was our constitutional duty.
And I invited them instead to come with me to witness this historic event, the peaceful transfer of power in America. And they said they heard that President Trump was calling on his followers to come to Washington to protest, and they asked me directly, would it be safe? Would it be safe? And I told them, of course it should be safe. This is the capitol.
My chief of staff Julie Tagen was with Tabitha and Hannah, locked and barricaded in that office, the kids hiding under the desk. Placing what they thought were their final texts and whispered phone calls to say their good-byes. They thought they were going to die.
[22:55:01]
My son-in-law had never even been to the capitol before. And when they were finally rescued over an hour later by capitol officers, and we were together, I hugged them and I apologize and I told my daughter Tabitha, who is 24 and a brilliant algebra teacher in Teach for America. Now, I told her how sorry I was, and I promised her that it would not be like this again, the next time she came to the capitol with me.
And you know what she said? She said, dad, I don't want to come back to the capitol. Of all the terrible, brutal things I saw and I heard on that day, and since then, that one hit me the hardest.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON (on camera): If any place should be safe, it should be the seat of democracy, our capitol. Thank you for watching, everyone. Our live coverage is going to continue with former President Donald Trump's second impeachment trial with my colleague, Anderson Cooper.
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