Return to Transcripts main page

Don Lemon Tonight

Senate Expected to Acquit Donald Trump on Saturday; Schoen Tried to Quit Last Night Over Video Clips; Trump Lawyers are Lying About Whether Trump Knew Vice President Pence was In Danger; Trump Trial Hours Away in Final Vote; White House Deputy Press Secretary Suspended; Trump's Legal Team Called Out for Focusing on Black Women; Paramilitary Extremists Role in Capitol Riot Under Investigation; A Missouri Woman Charged for Stealing Nancy Pelosi's Name Plate. Aired 11p-12a ET

Aired February 12, 2021 - 23:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[23:00:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DON LEMON, CNN HOST: Breaking news. CNN's bombshell reporting, a phone call between House Republican Leader Kevin McCarthy and the president on January 6th. A shouting match with Kevin McCarthy begging Trump to call off the Capitol rioters. GOP sources saying Trump refused, saying his supporters cared more about the election results than McCarthy did.

This just hours before closing arguments and the final vote in the Senate. Trump's lawyers quickly wrapping up their case, but a source close to Mike Pence saying Trump's team was not telling the truth when they claim Trump didn't know Pence was in danger during the riot.

And a source telling CNN that one of the Trump lawyers tried to quit the team in a dispute over the use of video clips they showed today until Trump called and got him to come back. Lots to discuss.

Joining me now, Mark McKinnon, the former adviser to George W. Bush and John McCain and the executive producer of The Circus. And former Obama senior adviser David Axelrod. It is a pleasure to have both of you gentlemen. David first. David, this new reporting shows that Trump knew his supporters were storming the Capitol, he did nothing to stop them. Isn't that alone a violation of his oath of office?

DAVID AXELROD, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yeah, look, there's plenty of evidence of him violating his oath of office. This is additional. It would be interesting to know exactly what the timing of that call is, but, you know, one of the most interesting points of the day it seems to me, Don, was when Senator Cassidy from Louisiana, a Republican, asked if the president knew at the time that he tweeted that Pence lacked courage, whether he was under siege.

And his lawyer said at no time did he know that. And he essentially was calling Senator Tuberville, who was on the phone with the president at that time and told him that they had just evacuated the vice president, and the president tweeted after that, that -- he essentially put a bigger target on Pence's back.

There's plenty of evidence that this president violated his oath in many different ways. Will it matter? Probably not. But it will in history, that's for sure.

LEMON: Mark, I see you and it looks like you are champing at the bit to get in. What do you want to say?

MARK MCKINNON, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, I just think this is very significant, Don. We have learned a lot today. Jamie's reporting was fantastic. You know, I talked to Robert Rey myself for our show yesterday, and he was remarkably candid I thought. You know, he is a Trump defender. He defended Trump in the first impeachment, and he said he was really shocked by what he learned about what happened between the hours of 1:00 and 4:00 on that day, and we are learning a lot more now.

This is a lot of new information, that's new information for the Senators. So there can be a debate, as there has been, over what did the president say before the riot happened to start the riot, and there's a lot of, you know, back and forth about the first amendment, what did he mean by going wild, what did he mean by don't show weakness and all of that.

But it is becoming clearer and clearer about what he did not do during the riot itself and what he could have done, and that to me is impeachable, case closed.

LEMON: Well, yeah. Go ahead.

AXELROD: I will say his lawyers, one of his lawyers during the day sort of said in passing, well, they could have charged him with another count, meaning dereliction of duty for not responding, but they didn't. They charged incitement, and that's what you have to decide this case on. The truth of the matter is, his lawyers go back and forth between treating it like it is a criminal trial and talking about things like due process, and then conferring and strategizing with the so-called jurors.

But, you know, the Senators can take all of this into consideration and make a judgment as to whether this president violated his oath and whether he should be allowed to hold office again. I think the case has been very strong, but this is a political exercise. And I think those Republican Senators were just looking for some red meat and red herrings that they can hang on to, to do what they were going to do going in.

LEMON: Mark.

CHEATHAM: I think that's true, David, but I also think that -- I think it is significant what's happened in the last 24 to 48 hours about the new things we've learned about Pence, about McCarthy, and also think about this. The Senators, the Republican Senators are looking at a colleague of theirs, the new one from Alabama, and the president's team is lying about him. They're lying about all of the --

(CROSSTALK)

You know --

AXELROD: So --

I so wish that I could -- you know, I would just point out that Kevin McCarthy had this exchange with the president. He knows more than anyone what transpired, and yet he flies down to Florida and makes peace with the president and has defended him since.

[23:05:07]

So, he -- and obviously voted against impeachment. So, I would love to share your sense of optimism that people are going to see their duty and do it. I'm a little less -- I'm a little less hopeful about that than you are.

LEMON: Mark, let me get this question in. One of the sources -- and it is to you. One of the sources of CNN's reporting, Republican Congresswoman Jamie Herrera Butler released a statement calling on more people to come forward. Says, to the patriots who were standing next to the former president as these conversations were happening or even to the former vice president, if you have something to add here, now would be the time.

I mean, this is some real courage if, you know, you're that sense of optimism that David says that you have. If more don't come forward, maybe they aren't the patriots the Congresswoman still believes that they are.

MCKINNON: Yeah, well, I mean, I am encouraged a little bit by the fact that somebody from Pence's office is telling reporters the truth as he heard it about what happened with Mike Pence. So maybe we'll hear that -- you know, we've got a limited window here. We have about a day left to get more information out.

But as I said, I think significant information has come out. Senators may have been sort of had a position which we knew going in about the constitutionality argument and all of that.

But I think after what people have seen this week, I think a lot of people, Cassidy and some others, were really moved by what they've seen and maybe they just needed some new information that can move them so that they have a rationale to go beyond what they had before which is to say, listen, I know we said this before, but this is new and this is impeachable.

LEMON: So, but maybe, maybe, Mark, if they watch The Circus and they watch CNN and they get -- I'm serious -- and they get out of that Fox News bubble, they would actually see some real reporting on what is happening because a lot of the stuff that we talk about they had never heard before. They had never seen before. I have never seen this. Where have they been? They've been in that bubble.

AXELROD: Yeah. Well, I think more to the point, their voters have been in that bubble and that's what they really fear. I don't think they fear Donald Trump so much as him whipping up a frenzy among their base that will turn on them.

LEMON: Right on. That's right.

AXELROD: You know, and I really, you know, I so admire those Republicans who have shown the courage to say no, we're not going to go along with this, it is unprecedented to see the numbers that we've seen. But they need a lot more between now and tomorrow afternoon when this vote goes down, and, you know, as I said, I would love to believe that -- you know, I wish this were a Frank Capra movie where everybody has at the end a great revolution and does the right thing.

LEMON: It is a wonderful life.

AXELROD: Yes. But it is more likely that it's going to go down as we expect, which is a handful of very courageous people will cast a courageous vote and others will glom on to the really a phony arguments that we heard today and outright falsehoods and say this justifies our vote against conviction.

LEMON: Mark, I know you want to respond. Five seconds. I know it is short. Make it happen.

MCKINNON: I would say the outcome is likely, but I think that we all agree that it was important to go through this process no matter the outcome.

AXELROD: Absolutely.

MCKINNON: Because of what we've learned, because of the stamp it puts on history and because of the dent it's going to put on Donald Trump's legacy. He will not be elected to anything again.

AXELROD: I agree with that.

LEMON: Maybe we should start ringing some bells, and maybe for Republicans, every time we ring a bell Republicans get some courage.

(LAUGHTER)

David, Frank Capra, it's a wonderful life.

AXELROD: My favorite Director.

LEMON: David, Mark, kick it.

AXELROD: Good to see you, guys.

MCKINNON: See you.

LEMON: Yes, I'll see you. Now, I want to bring in CNN's senior White House correspondent, Phil Mattingly. Phil, good evening to you. Good to see you. So, what is the reaction at the White House to the impeachment trial? They're moving forward with their agenda, but the president has made some public comments about it.

PHIL MATTINGLY, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Yes, it is interesting, Don. For as hard as the White House has tried to not weigh in in anyway shape or form on this trial, every time somebody asks the president about it he tends to weigh in. Including this morning, he told our colleague, Jeremy Diamond that he was anxious to see how Republicans were going to vote, given what they've seen over the course of the last three days.

Look. The reality is whatever the White House wants to say publicly from the president on down, they are paying attention to this. They know what is happening and while they may not be watching it live and in real-time, they are seeing what is happening over the course of every single day. I think the big question right now is, a couple of things.

One, is the president going to weigh in at any point when this is over perhaps. He is very clearly not going to while it is ongoing. And then, two, what happens afterwards. Obviously, Don, you mentioned it. They've been focused on their coronavirus relief package, doing several events over the course of this week, including today, they are going to do more next week as well. That is the top agenda item, but there's no ignoring what is happening on the Senate floor right now.

[23:10:01]

LEMON: And we are learning that a Deputy White House press secretary has been suspended for a week after threatening a reporter. What is this all about, Phil?

MATTINGLY: Yes. Look, it is not good to be completely blunt about it. This all goes back to January 20th on inauguration day. A Politico reporter was reporting out a story on this Deputy White House press secretary about T.J. Ducklo's personal relationship with another reporter. She received a call from him and in that call he threatened to quote, destroy her, also made several sexist remarks. I think the latter of which was been particularly jarring for a lot of reporters.

The biggest issue I think at this point in time is while he apologized at the time, the White House didn't actually do anything. They had a back and forth with Politico about what occurred until this became public in a news story this morning. It was addressed today.

The Deputy White House press secretary was suspended for a week without pay today, but I think the big question is, is that going to be enough given kind of the dynamics of what actually played out here and more specifically the very sexist comments that were made.

LEMON: President Biden, Phil said, on day one that he would fire anyone on the spot who disrespected a colleague or talked down to someone. So, how is this guy getting off with just a week suspension?

MATTINGLY: Yes. It is a great question, it's one our colleague Kaitlan Collins posed to Jen Psaki, the White House press secretary today. She made clear that was clear to the White House Chief of Staff, the suspension. It didn't appear that it has gotten to the president's level yet. I'm wondering how long it's going to take for that to actually occur given the remarks you are citing, which I think happened the first or second day of the administration. Jen Psaki made clear not that only had T.J. Ducklo apologized. But it

was completely unacceptable, that had very serious conversations about it. But I'm just kind of polling colleagues in the room in terms of what they're watching and what they are hearing right now and I think a lot of people are a little bit perplexed that one week suspension would be enough given the tone the administration tried to set, the page they've tried to turn from the last administration in terms of how they dealt with reporters, and where the president stands on this.

And so, I don't think this is the end of the story, the one-week suspension, but we will have to see how it plays out. One other thing to point out, Don, part of the suspension is that this Deputy White House press secretary will no longer be dealing with Politico reporters, not just the reporter that he had the altercation with but all Politico reporters.

And I think I could make the argument that that actually punishes Politico to some degree, that they don't have another contact at the White House purely because of something that contact at the White House did. And so, I think there's a lot of things that need to be resolved. I would venture to say this probably isn't the last day you hear about this or the last maybe action that occurs as it relates to this White House staffer.

LEMON: I think you are right. I don't think this is over yet. That's just my thought and that's yours as well. Thank you very much, Phil. I appreciate it. See you soon.

So, we now know that the former president knew the mob was attacking the Capitol and refused to stop them. Should the impeachment managers call witnesses to get answers?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

STACEY PLASKETT (D), DELEGATE TO U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES: Why did President Trump not tell the protesters to stop as soon as he learned about it? Why did President Trump do nothing to stop the attack for two hours after the attack began? Why did President Trump do nothing to help protect the Capitol and law enforcement battling the insurgents?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[23:15:00]

LEMON: Here is a breaking news. CNN is learning the former president knew rioters were storming the Capitol and refused to stop it. This damning new reporting coming just hours after Trump's lawyers laid out their defense. Ryan Nobles has the highlights from today's impeachment trial.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

RYAN NOBLES, CNN WASHINGON CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Donald Trump's legal team expecting an acquittal, using just three hours of the 16 hours they were granted to defend him in the Senate.

BRUCE CASTOR JR., DONALD J. TRUMP'S DEFENSE ATTORNEY: This concludes the formal defense of the 45th president of the United States to the impeachment article filed by the House of Representatives.

NOBLES: Knowing Democrats are unlikely to get the needed two-thirds of the Senate to convict Trump, his defense team arguing that President Trump's words were not intended to be used literally and highlighted Democrats using similar rhetoric.

UNKNOWN: I will fight like hell.

SEN. ELIZABETH WARREN (D-MA): We fight back.

UNKNOWN: This fight does not end tonight.

CASTOR: The House managers' claim is that the president of the United States was telling the audience to get -- to get each other to physically fight, but that is not what the president said.

NOBLES: But during the question and answer period, the House impeachment managers responded by pointing out that Trump's words were followed by physical violence and that he had been calling them to action for weeks.

PLASKETT: President Trump had spent months calling his supporters to a March on a specific day at a specific time for a specific purpose. What else were they going to do to stop the certification of the election on that day but to stop you?

NOBLES: Trump's lawyers arguing that the riots would have happened with or without his encouragement.

MICHAEL T. VAN DER VEEN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY FOR FORMER PRESIDENT DONALD J. TRUMP: A small group who came to engage in violent and menacing behavior high jacked the event for their own purposes.

NOBLES: And claiming the point of the impeachment pursuit was just to eliminate Trump as a future political rival.

VAN DER VEEN: It is about Democrats trying to disqualify their political opposition. It is constitutional cancel culture.

REP. JOAQUIN CASTRO (D-TX): The Democrats senators --

NOBLES: Both sides used the question and answer period to zero in on claims made by the legal teams. Democratic Senators attempting to pin down when President Trump knew Vice President Pence was in danger. The Trump team claimed when he tweeted attacking Pence, he had no clue the vice president had been rushed out of the chamber.

VAN DER VEEN: At no point was the president informed the vice president was in any danger, because the House rushed through this impeachment in seven days with no evidence, there is nothing at all in the record on this point.

(CROWD CHANTING) Hang Mike Pence!

[23:20:00]

NOBLES: But that claim runs contrary to the timing of the tweet, 2:24 p.m., which was 10 minutes after the former president was told by Senator Tommy Tuberville that the V.P. was being evacuated.

And this impeachment trial is going much quicker than anyone anticipated. Now that the question and answer period is already over, both sides will move ahead to the closing arguments on Saturday. That means the final vote on whether or not the former president will be convicted or acquitted will happen sometime Saturday evening, and it still seems based on conversations with both Republicans and Democrats after today's testimony that the former president is likely to be acquitted. Don.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

LEMON: Ryan Nobles, thank you so much. I appreciate that.

I want to bring in now former Democratic Senator Doug Jones of Alabama, he is now a CNN political commentator. Senator, thank you so much for joining again. CNN's new reporting shows that Trump knew the rioters was storming the Capitol but refused to call them off. What would you call this kind of evidence in a real trial?

DOUG JONES, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Don, I would absolutely call it evidence of motive and intent and purpose for what he did. I think that what happened during and after the insurrection -- and that's the only thing you can call it, despite what Mr. Castor says, it was an insurrection. There's no question about that.

And I think that call shows exactly where his head was, what he wanted, what he was looking for, how he was anticipating the kind of violence that was followed by a speech later on in which he told folks to stand-down, to go home, but we love you and remember this day, remember this very special day is what he said.

And this is what you get. This is a tweet. This is what you get when you steal elections or words to that effect. All of those are the connecting-the-dots that we talk about all the time, and those dots connected when the president made that phone call to Tommy Tuberville, when he gave that speech afterwards, calling it off after about four hours of unbelievable violence and horror.

LEMON: Senator, let me ask you. Listen, given what we now know, should impeachment managers call witnesses? I mean the Republican House members who spoke to Jamie, to Kevin McCarthy or Tommy Tuberville, should they be called?

JONES: Well, I think right now it is a little late. They would have to change the rules to do that. We have gone through the managers' case. We've gone through the defense case. We've gone through now the questions from the Senators, and the only thing left under the rules of procedure that were adopted was for arguments. Now, they could do that, and I think that I would not be surprised if

they tried to do that. I think that certainly they could do one thing with Senator Tuberville, just bring him up there and say, Senator, you said x, is that true, and have him sit down if assuming he says that. But I don't think it will happen, Don.

I think at this late date, changing the rules going forward, I think people are ready to move on and get the arguments in there and hopefully from the House managers' standpoint and in my view from America's standpoint, they can convince enough Republican Senators to follow their oath and to follow their duty.

LEMON: I want to get this into you. Philadelphia's Republican city commissioner, Al Schmitt (ph), remember him during all of this. He just twitted this, and he said, Leader McConnell, the former POTUS incited supporters to threaten to kill my children and put their head on spikes because we counted votes cast by eligible voters. They named my children and included my home address in the threats. Please consider when voting your conscience.

You work with McConnell. Many of the Republicans who will vote tomorrow. Will statements like this have any impact?

JONES: You know, Don, I would love to see this glass half full because that's normally how I look at things. But, unfortunately, I'm not being able to see it right now. I think Donald Trump still has a hold on the Republican Party that they cannot shake.

And unfortunately, the impeachment clause, the impeachment proceedings have become so partisan it is just a partisan exercise at this point. I don't -- I think there's a good chance you may get a few more, a couple more, but whether Senator McConnell and some of the others will go that far, I have serious questions.

And I think that that's unfortunate. I really believe this is an unfortunate because, as I said today in a CNN piece, if the things we have seen tonight, over the course of the last few days, if what we saw happen over the course of months and weeks leading up to January 6th and what happened on January 6th, if that is not an impeachable offense, then we may as well just strip that clause from the constitution and forget about it going forward because we will never be able to impeach a president as long as there is a divided Senate.

[23:25:08]

LEMON: Senator, a source close to Pence says that Trump's attorney, Michael van Der Veen, wasn't telling the truth when he said Trump didn't know Pence was in danger on January 6th. What are the consequences if he did lie? Are there any?

JONES: Well, no, not for the lawyer. He's not under oath. He's making a statement. It is a statement of advocacy. There are certain protections there. I don't think there's any consequences except in the court of public opinion, and when it gets back, you know, into Philadelphia if it is proven, you know, he has lied to the members of the United States Senate in representing a client, he may have a difficult time getting more clients and he may get challenged a little bit more by opposing lawyers and judges as they go through there. But I don't think for the statement itself, I don't think there will be any consequences.

LEMON: What about the bar?

JONES: But I do hope that Republican Senators --

LEMON: What about the bar?

JONES: The bar could, yeah. I mean there could be consequences there. I know that the bar has taken action before in things like this, if there is a complaint made by someone at the Pennsylvania bar. It is very possible for not having duty of candor, because I think that that duty, that ethical obligation has a duty of candor to the court, and in this case the court is the United States Senate.

And people will make light, you know, make comparisons to some of the things that House managers said, but you know what? They generally owned up when they made a mistake. They've said, we'll take that back, it was a mistake, we will strike that from the record. I think that's a matter of integrity for them, bur you are not seeing any of that kind of conduct from the defense lawyers in this case.

It is just an ugly, bomb-throwing type defense that is playing, in my view, playing to one person and his family, and that's Donald Trump and the Trump family.

LEMON: Thank you, Senator Jones. Always a pleasure. We appreciate it.

Trump's lawyers --

JONES: Thank you, Don.

LEMON: Trump's lawyers cutting together video that they say shows fighting words from Democrats, but one of the House managers noticed there sure were a lot of black women in the clip and she slammed them for it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PLASKETT: I thought we were past that. I think maybe we're not.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[23:30:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: Trump's legal team, engaging in all sorts of whataboutism, playing out of context clips in an effort to argue the former president's words did not incite the capitol rioters. Many of those clips showing people of color, especially black women speaking about the Black Lives Matter protest we saw this summer. Impeachment manager and House delegates, Stacey Plaskett noticed.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

STACEY PLASKETT, IMPEACHMENT MANAGER: I will briefly say that defense councils put a lot of videos out in their -- in their defense, playing clip after clip of black women talking about fighting for a cause or an issue or a policy. It was not lost on me that so many of them where people of color and women and black women.

Black women like myself, who are sick and tired of being sick and tired for our children, your children, our children. This summer, things happened that were violent, but there was also things that gave some of us, black women, great comfort.

Seeing Amish people from Pennsylvania standing up with us. Members of Congress, fighting up with us. And so I thought we were past that. I think maybe we're not.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: So joining me now, CNN political analyst and VP of digital content at theGrio, Natasha Alford. Natasha, good to see you. Thank you so much for appearing. So, Manager Plaskett calling out what was clear to a lot of people watching especially women and people of color. What did you think when you saw what the Trump team was doing?

NATASHA ALFORD, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, Don, I thought what we witnessed with these videos was really a master class in manipulation. As you said, they took quotes out of context. You know, they highlighted anything that would make Donald Trump appear to be reasonable and to be someone who was a preserver of peace when we know that so much of the language that he used, going all the way back to the campaign trail, was really an endorsement of violence and unrest.

And so, you know, even the cheesy music underneath, it was all really an effort and propaganda, really. It came across as propaganda to position Donald Trump in one way and to make Democrats look as though they were, you know, cheerleaders of violence. And what we know is that that's a misrepresentation.

When Democrats of color are blasting racial injustice or police brutality, or voting access, we are talking about something that truly hits at the heart of the sins of America. And also, these are issues for which their own ancestors fought and died, like literally practice civil disobedience.

So, I thought it was a perversion of the legacy of what it means to fight for social justice for these defense lawyers to use these clips in the way that they did. And I think that Stacey Plaskett is right.

[23:35:00]

Black women have every right to be sick and tired because when we are talking about fighting, we are talking about fighting for the right to vote, Stacey Abrams. Fighting to work and be paid what we deserve. Fighting to raise black children who won't be killed for, you know, just any reason, right? Won't be killed at all.

So, these issues are really important to the values of America says that it stands for. And these defense lawyers were trying to manipulate that and really pervert that legacy.

LEMON: and you're talking about fighting people, physically, and inciting an insurrection in the nation's capital because there is zero equivalency, Natasha, between people of color calling for justice and Trump pushing the big lie and inciting an insurrection.

It's not just -- I mean, it's an -- it's not just an absurd argument, it's also a dangerous one, I think.

ALLFORD: Yes. It's incredibly dangerous and it's also a deflection. I don't know if you notice that part where, you know, they tried to blame rioters who were on the left and say that they were somehow infiltrators who came and it really wasn't the folks who are on the right, who looked us in our faces, who are on camera, seeing exactly who they were.

And so, it's this continuation of perverting the truth and telling us that we're not seeing what we really know that we're seeing and telling us that there are both sides to right and wrong when we know that doesn't exist.

LEMON: Yes. You know, it shouldn't be lost on anyone that there are now no black women in the Senate. It just goes to the point that these women are really what these women were talking about. They are still pushing for equality, as you said, no black women in the Senate. I mean, that speaks volumes especially when you see who is defending the president, what the bulk of the Senate looks like and what the optics of this looks like on television.

ALLFORD: It does. And we have to note that Stacey Plaskett is a history making impeachment manager, right. She is, you know, she's coming in as a non-voting delegate representing the U.S. Virgin Islands, and she also took this moment to shout out the ways in which there is not representation.

Whether you are talking about Puerto Rico or D.C. when it comes to voting on legislation. And so, I think she spoke for many people, not just herself, but many communities of color that felt disenfranchised, or who are disenfranchised in this current moment.

And so that is what I think the power of her presentation was more than about this impeachment, but again, about America taking this moment to truly live up to the values that it says it stands for. And she said that in the speech.

This moment will define us, and unfortunately, there are so many members of the GOP who are beholden to Donald Trump that they put party over country. And so -- and this is why, you know, we are in this situation right now with this trial.

LEMON: There was a -- Natasha, there was a noose setup outside of the capital on January 6th. People with confederate battle flags inside of the capital building, white supremacists. And now we are having to relive all of that during this trial. You tweeted about the generational trauma and terror that this attack represents. Talk to me about that please.

ALLFORD: Yes. You know, I was just really moved to see this mob to storm the capital. And it reminded me of other moments in history that we've witnessed in which black people were subject to mob violence, and there was this feeling that nothing would be done about it.

You think about Emmett Till, brutally murdered, and his killer sitting in court and smiling because they knew that they wouldn't be held accountable. You know, four little girls, killed in a church. No accountability. No justice for Tamir Rice who was playing with a toy gun.

But we watch insurrectionists, you know, run through the halls of the capital and threaten people's lives. And so, I think for black Americans, we know what it's like to not have accountability and we're always asked to forgive and to move on and sort of accept that unity and forgiveness, that should be the priority.

And now, I think, other people are getting a taste of that reality. They're seeing what it means to -- to see, you know, violence goes unchecked. And so, again, this is a moment where America can reset, but it's not just about moving forward and calling for bipartisanship. You actually have to have accountability in order to have healing.

LEMON: Yes. Thank you, Natasha. I appreciate it. Thank you so much. Before we go to break, can we just put the video up of officer, Capitol police officer, Eugene Goodman?

[23:39:56]

I think it's great that they're going to give him -- they gave him a standing ovation today, and they're also going to give him the congressional gold medal for his heroics for helping to save everybody's lives, leading Mitt Romney away and so on. So, congratulations to him, well deserved.

So, her lawyer says that she is the girl next door. So, how did Emily Hernandez end up in the middle of a riot, holding up Speaker Pelosi's nameplate? That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[23:45:00]

LEMON: Court records revealing tonight that federal prosecutors are focused on understanding communications between members of parliamentary groups -- paramilitary groups, excuse me, before the capital insurrection. We're also learning that prosecutors say one of the alleged oath keepers, his name Thomas Caldwell, kept a death list with the name of an election official written on it, but not everyone facing charges in the wake of the insurrection is allegedly associated with the paramilitary organization. One of them is 21-year-old Emily Hernandez, allegedly stole part of

Nancy Pelosi's name plate during the capitol riot. She turned herself in to federal authorities last month and is facing five separate misdemeanor counts in D.C. But her lawyer says that she didn't go to Washington to defend Trump, and "She is as much an insurrectionist as she is a professional football player."

So, Attorney Ethan Corlija joins me now. Attorney, thank you so much, I appreciate you joining.

ETHAN CORLIJA, ATTORNEY FOR EMILY HERNANDEZ: Thank you Don. It's a pleasure to be on the show.

LEMON: So let's talk about your client, Emily. She did turn herself into the authorities, but if she didn't come to Washington to stop the steal, how did she get to this point? How did she end up waving Nancy Pelosi's placard in the middle of an insurrection?

CORLIJA: Well, it's more or less an unfortunate happenstance when it comes to Emily's case. She went to Washington with a family friend and a member of her family. And the reason why she went to Washington, she had never been to Washington. She'd like -- she wanted to see the monuments and all of the touristy things.

And these two individuals had room on a ride to Washington. She took them up on it, went there, and, really, for no nefarious intent at all and no reason other than to see the attractions, you know, she is a young girl and she had never been to Washington. She took them up on the opportunity and one thing led to another, and the next thing you know, she is mixed up in this situation now.

LEMON: So, I have to ask you what folks are asking at home and what they are saying? Even if she was brought there by older family members, she is 21, she is an adult. Shouldn't she have understood the gravity of what she was doing?

CORLIJA: Well, I think that's easy to say. I think anybody with younger kids and, you know, Emily still is a kid --

LEMON: And I should say family friends, excuse me. I said family members but pardon me. Go on.

CORLIJA: Well, it was one family member and a family friend. But, you know, the situation is that Emily, sure, should probably should have known better and she didn't have a lot of foresight when this happened. I think, you know, now, obviously, she regrets doing it.

But the situation was that, you know, when she was there and she was caught up in the moment and, you know, show me a 21-year-old or an early, you know, twenties young lady that doesn't take a lot of selfies, doesn't take a lot of photographs. They take them almost by the dozens every minute, and she got caught up in that, swept up in it.

The photos, obviously, went viral, and it led to all of this, but yes, she has some regret about doing it, but again, I mean, I just want to stress. She did not go there with nefarious or criminal intent. This is not that.

LEMON: Yes, but taking a selfie, you know, in a new outfit or with your dog or having -- is different than being caught up in an insurrection. Let me just -- I'll give you a chance to respond, but does she believe in the big lie that Joe Biden didn't win the election? Is she aware that this was all based on nothing more than the former president's inability to face the fact that he lost? Does she understand that?

CORLIJA: I will say this, Don. She has her political loyalties and they are not very strong. I'll tell you that. If you would've asked her a year ago who the president of the United States was, I don't know that she would've been able to give you a correct answer. She just doesn't have a political bone in her body.

She has people she associates with that have strong political loyalties. You have to remember she is from small town Missouri. Missouri is, and especially this area of Missouri, is a stronghold for conservative leaning people. So, it's easy for people to say, well, she's from that area.

She went to Washington. She was going to engage in this protest in this rally to stop the steal, as they say, but I think people that believe that and people that say that have missed the mark and they don't know the facts about Emily Hernandez.

LEMON: Okay. All right. So, Mr. Corlija, so even if she came there with no bad intentions, she did wind up in a crowd that had conspiracy theories, they had military militia members there, excuse me, far- right extremists, and she went along for the ride.

[23:49:58]

There was a racist paraphernalia, there was anti-Semitic paraphernalia, there were people in that crowd yelling the N-word at police officers. So, the people at home are going to wonder how do you get caught up into -- that's pretty abhorrent behavior, even if you're 21 years old. That's not a fun crowd to get swept up in.

CORLIJA: I don't disagree that that behavior is abhorrent. And I don't disagree that there were people in that crowd that went to the capital for the sole purpose to create mayhem, to destroy property, to harm others. Obviously, that's what happened. It's unfortunate. It's saddening that that happened.

But I think people that want to assign that type of conduct to Emily Hernandez, just don't understand the big picture with Emily. You're talking here about a young girl from a small town in Missouri. She's a hardworking girl. She's a modest girl. She was brought up in a very good family atmosphere.

She was taught to respect the rule of law, and that she, in no way shape, or form condones any type of violence whatsoever. So, I think people that want to make her into an insurrectionist or seditionist, they're just not seeing the facts. LEMON: Okay. Listen, we are out of time. I want to invite you back

because I want to continue this conversation, but it's going to be an uphill sell for a lot of Americans. I'm sure you realize that.

CORLIJA: I understand. I understand. Thank you, Don. Thank you.

LEMON: Thank you, Mr. Corlija. I appreciate it. And we'd love to talk to your client as well. We'll see you soon. We'll be right back.

CORLIJA: Thank you. Bye-bye.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[23:55:00]

LEMON: In just hours, the Senate will gavel back in for the next day of the impeachment trial. At 10:00 a.m., there is an opportunity to debate whether to call witnesses. The most likely scenario, neither side calls witnesses and both sides get two hours to make their closing arguments.

Now, that means that a final vote on the verdict could happen as soon as tomorrow afternoon. CNN special coverage of the impeachment trial starts at 9:00 tomorrow morning. Thanks for watching everyone. Our coverage continues.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)