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Don Lemon Tonight

Nancy Pelosi Plans 9/11 Type Commission To Investigate Riot; President Biden Forging Ahead To Get His Massive COVID-19 Relief Bill; Trump's Future Role In The GOP Among Republicans; Fallout From Trump's Acquittal Exposes Rift Within GOP; New Capitol Riot Video Shows Extreme Levels Of Coordination; "The Bachelor" Host Steps Aside Because Of Racism Controversy. Aired 11p-12a ET

Aired February 15, 2021 - 23:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[23:00:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DON LEMON, CNN HOST (on camera): President Biden, working to push his agenda forward, now that the second impeachment trial of the former president is over. At the top of the list, getting his massive COVID- 19 relief bill passed. Biden, is heading out on the road this week to drum up support. The House Speaker Nancy Pelosi is announcing plans to create a 9/11 type commission to investigate the deadly attack on the Capitol.

And tonight, Senator Richard Burr, censured by the North Carolina Republican Party, for voting to convict Trump at his second impeachment trial. White House correspondent, John Harwood, is here. And senior political analyst, Ron Brownstein as well. Gentlemen, hello.

John, the House speaker announcing that 9/11 type commission to investigate the January 6th insurrectionist attack. McConnell says that Trump could face criminal charges. What does this all mean for the Biden administration determined to move past the last administration?

JOHN HARWOOD, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT (on camera): I don't think all that much, Don. Now that the impeachment trial is over, and that did transfixed the political world, it tied up to Senate, of course, for more than a week. But, now that that is behind us. Joe Biden and Democrats on the Hill are moving forward pretty aggressively with their COVID relief bill. And there, are no signs, at the moment, that there are fractures within their coalition that will prevent them from passing it.

The criminal cases, if they materialize in Georgia, or New York, are going to be happening elsewhere. And they are not going to implicate Joe Biden, unless its Justice Department somehow gets involved, we don't have any indication of that so far. A 9/11 style commission takes some time to set up, it will be bipartisan in nature, and it won't be the center of the political universe.

I think the things the commission, and the potential prosecution, maybe relevant to Mitch McConnell's effort to arm wrestle Donald Trump for some of the near term control the Party heading into 2022, don't think it's likely to affect Joe Biden all that much.

LEMON: Ron, the North Carolina GOP, censoring Senator Burr tonight for his vote to convict Trump. This is his response. He says, my Party's leadership has chosen loyalty to one man over the core principles of the Republican Party. In your new piece, you ask if the GOP is extremist wing is too big to fail. Do you got an answer for us?

RON BROWNSTEIN, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST, AND SENIOR EDITOR OF THE ATLANTIC (on camera): Well, look, it is big, right? and you are seeing the influence that it is exerting, not only in the way the members are behaving, so few in the House voting to impeach, so if you in the Senate voting to convict, but now in the state parties censuring those who stood up to Trump after he, literally, you know, directed a mob, or incited a mob, to target them.

The challenge Republicans have, I think, is really a well, encapsulated by the poll out today by Quinnipiac. There's no question that Donald Trump remains the dominant figure in the party. Three quarters of Republicans say they want him to continue playing a big role in the Party's future. Roughly three-quarters of the party say they believe that the election was stolen.

[23:05:11]

But, there is roughly 20 to 25 percent of the Party that is deeply unhappy with the way it has been conducting itself since November. And particularly since January 6. And if even a fraction of those voters you know, defect, or stay home, that is catastrophic for Republicans. So, they are in a situation where they can see both the difficulty of getting away from Trump, and the cost of basically wrapping themselves around him.

Which, by the way, Don, is why you saw this incredibly cynical, and convoluted attempt by Mitch McConnell to criticize Trump. (Inaudible), it was impossible to satisfy (inaudible) conviction.

LEMON (on camera): Yes, we had a little bit of trouble with your signal there, but listen, I mean, John, Ron said three-fourths of the party believes that he, you know, they won, and continued that (inaudible) and believe that he should had been acquitted. I mean, that's the party, three-fourths, that's a lot, that's an overwhelming majority. But listen, the Republican Senator Ron Johnson is actually questioning whether the armed insurrection even happened. Listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. RON JOHNSON (R-WI): This didn't seem like an armed insurrection to me. I mean armed, when you hear armed, don't you think of firearms? Here's the question I would have liked to ask, how many firearms were confiscated? How many shots were fired? I am only aware of one.

(END VIDEO CLIP) LEMON (on camera): Are you kidding me? People died. The NPD officer

Michael Fanone who I've been talking to was tased so many times, that he suffered a heart attack. What the hell is he talking about?

HARWOOD: Well, look, Ron Johnson is reflecting that 75 percent that is standing with Trump, and resisting this accountability. I think there is a point being made which is that given the number of former law enforcement, and militia type people who were participating in the insurrection, I am surprised, personally, that there wasn't more bloodshed. I'm surprised there wasn't more gunfire exchanged.

Nevertheless, it was an intense, deadly, insurrection, and when you have got a faction that large within the party that wanted to shield Trump from accountability, that of course, is a big problem for the Republican Party. It may not manifest itself all that much in the near term. We have midterm election coming up in 2022. And, depending on political conditions, history tells us that the out party tends to do fairly well in the first president -- midterm of a president.

So, even with the fissures within the party, there is a chance that Republicans could win back power in the House, or Senate, or both, in 2022. Long term, it is a significant problem as they bleed colleges educated voters, trying to replace them with the intensity, and the mobilization, of those white non-college voters. But that is a shrinking demographic, and it's unclear how much they can continue to squeeze that segment of the party for expanded turnout and vote share going forward.

LEMON: We are going to have to give Ron Johnson a lesson in what armed means. You can be armed with knowledge, you can be armed with ignorance, you can be armed with blue lives matter flags and flag post. You could be armed with noxious toxic chemicals with tear gas. You can be armed with knives. We are armed with a lot of this. It doesn't just mean a gun. Jesus, what a -- oh my gosh. These people are nuts. They are out of their minds. Yes, go ahead.

BROWNSTEIN: And Don, real quick. And there is polling out last week from the American enterprise, a conservative think tank, showing 55 percent of Republicans say that the American way of life is disappearing so fast that we may have to use force to save it. Donald Trump has reoriented the Republican Party to the point where its coalition is centered on hostility, and resistance to the way America is changed demographically, and culturally.

LEMON: You know (inaudible), (inaudible).

BROWNSTEIN: As well as racially. Those are the voters who, consistently, in study, after study, express the most sympathy for anti-Democratic ideas, and, also, for the kind of conspiracy theories that feed them. And that is the challenge that Republicans have, at the heart of the Trump base, is the part of the party that is most drawn, by kind of any means necessary.

A resistance to the way the country is changing. And Republicans want to chart a different course, facing the reality that, as I say, that part of the party is growing too big to fail. It doesn't mean that all Republicans are going to go out and commit violence, it does mean that there is kind of more tolerance in the coalition, as Ron Johnson is very clearly reflecting, for the kind of actions that we saw on January 6th.

[23:10:18]

And if you talk to experts in counter-terrorism, forget about the political implications. You know, the implications for national security, and domestic kind of safety going forward, if the party continues to provide oxygen, in an effect to say, we are normalizing this kind of behavior by Donald Trump, where Marjorie Taylor Greene, you are going to get more of it.

LEMON: Well, they have normalized it, it is. That is what their party is right now. They should stop pretending that it is not. Because that's exactly what it is. And so much for that economic anxiety B.S. that people said. That's why people voted for Donald Trump. It was an economic anxiety. They were afraid of losing their place and their stature -- their status in society. That is what it is.

Thank you both, I appreciate it. Now I want to bring in former Nixon White House counsel, John Dean. He is the author of Authoritarian nightmare, Trump, and his followers. John, good to see you, thank you so much for joining us. Here is what you point out, that 11 Senators who just voted to acquit Trump, also voted to convict or impeach Bill Clinton back in the late 90s. So, these Republicans things lying about oral sex is worse than an insurrection?

JOHN DEAN, CNN CONTRIBUTOR, FORMER NIXON WHITE HOUSE COUNSEL (on camera): Apparently, they do. I thought about -- I was thinking about that last night is the reason I sent that tweet out, it was kind of striking. I covered that impeachment, and I thought, what a reach it was to even have that impeachment process.

And then, the votes, how all the Republican just marshaled right behind and said this guy should be thrown out of office for this. And it was preposterous. Then I look to see how they voted in this impeachment, and I saw that those who had been in the House, like Blunt and Portman, and Thune, Crapo, and Moran, and Ricker and Graham, particularly who is a manager. They were now saying that Trump was not really guilty of anything.

McConnell, Grassley, (Inaudible) and Shelby had both -- they all tried to convict Clinton, but here they were, exonerating Trump. It is just preposterous, Don. It makes no sense for somebody who has taken an oath for impartial justice.

LEMON: Moronic is a good word. So, Mitch McConnell made it clear that Trump is still liable for his actions on January 6th. Is this something that the Biden Justice Department should pursue?

DEAN: You know, given the -- a lot of those members I had mentioned did issue statements, Grassley, for example, put out a 2,000-words- plus statement where he talked about how un-responsible and pour leadership Trump had shown, and how his behavior was actually, inexplicable. You could not justify it. So, I think there is a mood in Washington right now, particularly with

the establishment of this commission that Speaker Pelosi wants to start, but that is going to sip off and influence the Department of Justice. And I don't think Trump is going to get a pass on this, ultimately.

LEMON: All right. John Dean, thank you so much. I appreciate it.

President Biden moving forward on his promises to the American people, now that impeachment is over, is COVID, and how he handles it the issues that will define his presidency.

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[23:15:00]

LEMON: President Biden is facing multiple crises now that Trump's second impeachment trial is over. The pandemic, the vaccine rollout, the economic fallout and everything from the infrastructure to the climate crisis, to criminal justice reform, to immigration. One of the president's most pressing legislative goals is passing the $1.9 trillion stimulus package.

Joining me to discuss CNN at this critical moment in the Biden presidency is CNN's presidential historian Douglas Brinkley. Douglas, good to see you. Thanks for joining.

DOUGLAS BRINKLEY, CNN PRESIDENTIAL HISTORIAN (on camera): Thanks.

LEMON: So, the president is facing a handful of historic challenges. What lessons are there for the 46th president of the United States when you look at history on this president's day?

BRINKLEY: You know, Don, I was -- I once spoke with Joe Biden at the Kennedy library in Boston. And he was very involved with how JFK brought our country together going to the moon. And then once Joe Biden left the vice presidency, he created a cancer mood shot. The idea that we're all in this together. Let's go and do something big.

I think tomorrow night at the town hall with Anderson Cooper is a pivotal moment for Joe Biden to try to get the American public behind the $1.9 trillion COVID relief package, borrowed from John Kennedy. Talk about we can do it or the yes, we can of Barack Obama. Because our country is hurting right now. The vaccines are on the way, but we need a kind of -- some optimism coming out of Joe Biden that we can lick this pandemic.

LEMON: Yeah. The margins in Congress for Democrats are so slim, Douglas. The country is incredibly partisan and divided now. And Biden campaigned on healing. Can he go it alone on big legislative items like COVID relief or does he need Republicans behind him considering his message on running and then the beginning, you know, the first weeks of his presidency?

BRINKLEY: You know, by inclination, Joe Biden likes to make deals with the opposition. He was known for that in the U.S. Senate. He had many Republican friends. He has a pretty decent relationship with Mitch McConnell, but if the Republicans can't come to the table and get this $1.9 trillion package done now, what can they do together?

That's what worries me in the next couple of weeks. And people are going to be hungry. People's businesses are continuing to close. It's going to be a long and brutal winter for you know, March and into April here. So let's hope that that is -- that something can get done. If not, he's probably going to have to resort to becoming an executive power president.

[23:2006]

We've seen that right now with no drilling in the arctic or no to the keystone pipeline. On and on the first spat of executive orders he signed. I suppose there will be many more. And that's not the ideal way for our democracy to work with just a strong president doing everything, and a Congress out to lunch just wallowing in partisan politics.

LEMON (on camera): On Friday, the current president hosted a bipartisan group of mayors and Governors in the Oval Office to discuss this COVID relief package. This is part of what they said during that event.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: Those folks are all on the frontlines. They've been dealing with this crisis since day one. It's -- I'm not making a political statement. It's just taken a while to adjust. They've been left on their own in many cases.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON (on camera): So this is all part of this plan to drum up support for the bill outside of D.C. A different approach to bipartisanship than just lobbying for Republicans on the hill?

BRINKLEY: Yeah. He's -- and he's moving now, Joe Biden. You know, due to his age and due to COVID, he's pretty much stayed in Washington since the inaugural but now he's going into the Midwest. And he's also -- you know, he has such grace notes, Joe Biden. I think his calling card is he feels other people's pain. We've seen this over and over again. And I think he's always good at slapping people on the back and saying good job.

And I believe the medical workers of America, people that are exhausted from a year of this are responding to Biden's presidency. They're feeling that they have a leader now who is not working against them. Biden's poll numbers are good and this all important first 100 days of his presidency so far, it's been great.

And he has done, I think well of probably having to take a low-key approach to dealing with the insurrection of Trump, not part of the impeachment debacle that occurred on Capitol Hill. But Biden now needs to lead as Nancy Pelosi said, Don, on getting a 9/11 commission report. We need facts as many as we can assemble about what occurred on that grim January 6th.

LEMON (on camera): He is focused. He just ignores the noise and he just keeps moving on with his agenda. That's very admirable. Thank you, Douglas. I appreciate that.

So, make sure you watch President Joe Biden, will join Anderson live from Milwaukee, Wisconsin in an executive presidential town hall tomorrow at 9:00 eastern, right here on CNN.

And next, CNN investigating an extremist anti-government group known for its recruiting current and former members of both the military and law enforcement. And straight ahead, this is a story that has been dominating everything. The host of one of the biggest reality TV shows stepping aside after defending the racist actions of a member of the cast.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNKNOWN: The picture was from 2018 at an old south antebellum party. So, I think -- you know, when you -- it's not -- that's not a good look.

UNKNOWN: When you hold that under the lens --

UNKNOWN: It's not a god look.

UNKNOWN: It's not a good -- well, Rachel, is it a good look in 2018 or is not a good look in 2021?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

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[23:25:00]

LEMON (on camera): House Speaker Nancy Pelosi announcing plans today to form a 9/11 type commission to investigate the deadly insurrection at the Capitol last month. One extremist problem paramilitary group already under investigation by federal authorities is a group known as the Oath Keepers.

Here's CNN's Sara Sidner.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SARA SIDNER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice over): Members of the extremist anti-government Oath Keepers --

CROWD: Freedom! Freedom!

SIDNER (voice over): -- were a part of this siege.

CROWD: Fight for Trump! Fight for Trump!

SIDNER (voice over): They are seen in combat gear bracingly bragging about breaching the Capitol. UNKNOWN: Overrun the Capitol.

UNKNOWN: We're in the (BEEP) Capitol.

SIDNER (voice over): The extremist paramilitary group is known for recruiting current and former members of the military and law enforcement. It has emerged as one of the groups that is a major focus of federal investigators.

The FBI is trying to hunt down the suspects in these photos, some of whom are wearing Oath Keeper gear. These three alleged Oath Keepers and military veterans, Jessica Watkins, Donovan Crowl and Thomas Caldwell were the first to face significant conspiracy charges related to the Capitol attack.

REP. ERIC SWALWELL (D-CA): The leader of a militia group known as the Oath Keepers received messages while he was at the Capitol.

SIDNER (voice over): The federal claims against the accused Oath Keepers even mentioned during the second impeachment trial against former President Donald Trump.

SWALWELL: The leader was given directions to where representatives were thought to be sheltering and instructions to, quote, "turn on gas. Seal them in."

SIDNER (voice over): An accused leader of the group that day, Caldwell denies any involvement with the Oath Keepers. His attorney claims the FBI has shown no evidence of him inside the Capitol. In court papers, his lawyers said he worked for the FBI and has held a top security clearance since 1979. But this is also Caldwell talking about members of Congress on January 6th.

THOMAS CALDWELL, ALLEGED OATH KEEPERS MEMBER: Every single (BEEP) in there is a traitor. Every single one.

SIDNER (voice over): A source with inside knowledge of how the Oath Keepers operate told CNN about a dozen members were in federal law enforcement but purposely kept off the group's official membership database.

(on camera): Would it be a surprise that someone who is in federal law enforcement was a member of the Oath Keepers?

[23:30:02]

ALEX FRIEDFELD, INVESTIGATIVE RESEARCHER, ANTI-DEFAMATION LEAGUE: Unfortunately, not, right? For years, Oath Keepers have been targeting, you know, military and law enforcement personnel, especially at the federal level with their messaging recruitments.

SIDNER: Federal prosecutor say just days before the attack, Caldwell discussed with another extremist bringing weapons across the Potomac via boat. We could have our quick response team with the heavy weapons standing by, load them and ferry them across the river to our waiting arms. Federal agents say he also sent messages to accused Oath Keepers Crowl and Watkins. In this one to Crowl, he says, I will probably do pre- strike on the fifth, maybe can do some night hunting. And then mentions when his Oath Keeper friends from North Carolina will show up.

CROWD: We want Crowl!

SIDNER: In video from January 6, it appears the three may not have been acting alone. Watkins is seen with others marching towards the Capitol. The FBI said she was part of a group of eight to 10 people all wearing paramilitary gear and Oath Keeper paraphernalia, signifying their affiliation with the conspiracy-fueled anti- government group.

Here she is again behind the guy with the eye patch, the leader and founder of the Oath Keepers, Stewart Rhodes, in the November Trump rally in D.C. Two months later, Rhodes is seen outside the Capitol during the attack. He has not been charged with any crime. He was clear on his Oath Keepers mission in D.C.

STEWART RHODES, LEADER AND FOUNDER, OATH KEEPERS: And our mission there, as we stated on -- in our call to action to go to D.C., which all -- we always do, protect people, protect venues, protect events. That's it. You know, do VIP escorts.

SIDNER: And some did, appearing to stand guard with Trump adviser Roger Stone. This is Oath Keeper Roberto Minuta of New Jersey, according to some people who know him. Later that day, Minuta is seen yelling at police outside the Capitol. Soon after, a man wearing the same goggles and clothing is seen breaching the Capitol.

Despite the mounting evidence and manhunt for some of his Oath Keepers, this is Rhodes 24 days after the siege talking about the current government.

RHODES: There's going to be resistance. The only question is, is what will be the spark?

SIDNER: Rhodes is still spewing the lie that the election was stolen and egging on his followers to act.

RHODES: You got to declare this regime to be illegitimate. You got to declare everything that comes out of King Biden's mouth is illegitimate and null and void from the inception because he is not a legitimate president.

FRIEDFELD: He is continuing to use violent rhetoric and spread conspiracies that frame, you know, today's events in a way that necessitate action on the part of his followers.

CROWD: (INAUDIBLE).

SIDNER: Though Rhodes says it was a mistake for people to actually go inside the Capitol that day --

UNKNOWN: Keep pushing!

SIDNER: Even in light of the insurrection, his rhetoric has not changed.

RHODES: They have plans for us that they know we'll rebel against and they're afraid because there are 365 million of us. We outnumber them vastly and we're armed, well-armed. So they have a problem and so they're afraid.

(END VIDEO TAPE)

SIDNER (on camera): Now, we reached out to Roberto Minuta. Someone at his business told us that he had no comment. We also tried to reach Jessica Watkins and Donovan Crowl. They both are still in jail and at this moment do not have attorneys yet who are representing them. Don?

LEMON: Sara, before you go, I have a question for you. Have any Oath Keepers come forward to denounce what happened on January 6th and say they don't want any part of this group going forward?

SIDNER: Yeah, this is probably the strongest statement we've seen when an Oath Keeper group in one state breaks off from the main Oath Keeper, national Oath Keeper group.

Basically, there was a group in North Carolina that said, look, we were horrified about what we saw on January 6th. They were, according to the state coordinator, in D.C. They said they were there to support Trump but when they saw the attack going on at the Capitol, they said they wanted no part of it.

The men and women, they said of North Carolina, believe that the national leadership, talking about the national Oath Keeper leadership, could have stopped this and did nothing. They said that they are going to be starting their own thing that they no longer want to be affiliated with the national Oath Keepers. Don?

LEMON: All right. Thank you very much, Sara. I appreciate that.

We got more on these ongoing threats. I'm going to ask a former DHS official how these extremists can be rooted out of the military.

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[23:35:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: Tonight, at least 215 people have been charged in the fallout of January 6th riot. Investigators are uncovering troubling details of how paramilitary groups coordinated as the riot was unfolding. The evidence is making it clear just how much worse that day could have been.

Let's discuss now. Elizabeth Neumann is here, the former assistant secretary of Homeland Security. I'm so glad that you're here. Thank you so much for joining us, secretary. CNN has been going through hundreds of pieces of evidence assembled by the House impeachment team. Security video shows nine men in matching tactical gear moving as a unit through the Capitol, and rioters seeming to direct reinforcements through the halls. Investigators are focussed on untangling how rioters coordinated. How will they do that and how do you think the Oath Keepers fit into the planning?

ELIZABETH NEUMANN, FORMER ASSISTANT SECRETARY FOR THREAT PREVENTION AND SECURITY POLICY, DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY: Thanks for having me, Don. I share the concern.

[23:40:00]

NEUMANN: We saw links of this on January 6th. There were certain parts of the crowd that were more coordinated than others. Then you started to hear word about walkie-talkies and similar-looking dress and moving through crowds and using military techniques like tapping on the right shoulder.

You started to realize that there were cells within this mass of people storming the Capitol that were very organized, that had a plan, and I think we are still waiting for the investigation to show us how deep the interconnection between the cells might be or if this was just multiple cells showing up all at the same time because Donald Trump asked them to come.

But as the investigation starts to piece that together, they have access usually to -- through court warrants to communication that wouldn't necessarily be open source, e-mails on computers, and they'll, of course, be following the money trail, as well. I think they'll be able to help us understand how coordinated this is.

But I am really interested in looking forward to the problem that you kind of asserted. How do we make sure this doesn't happen again?

LEMON: Yeah.

NEUMANN: And that's a heavy lift because we have a lot of people in this country that are very angry and are, according to the polls, think that violence is justified.

LEMON: The defense secretary, Lloyd Austin, recently ordered a review of the handling of extremism in the ranks. How difficult is it to try to root this out in ideologies and organizations like the military or law enforcement?

NEUMANN: It's very difficult. You know, the military and law enforcement, at least at the federal level, have had programs in place since the 90s to screen for signs and indicators of somebody maybe perhaps belonging to a white supremacist group or anti-government extremist group like a militia.

And so those groups have wisened up and they've learned how to ensure that any recruits going in don't -- that they're clean. They don't have tattoos or they don't -- in today's day and age, don't have social media feeds that indicate that they're involved in extremism. So you have to look at maybe more insider threat type of programs to be able to detect and ensure that if a bystander notices something that's of concern that it gets reported.

But when I'm honestly more concerned about is the -- once somebody leaves the military, that seems to be when they're a little bit more susceptible to recruitment.

And what the militia are looking for, not necessarily somebody on the inside although that might be helpful in certain circumstances, they're looking more for the tactical skills that one has when you've served in the military or law enforcement.

And so the recruitment piece might actually be a little bit easier to deal with and it comes down to educating both entire country as well as our military men and women about what these groups actually are all about because they often sell themselves as something other than what they are.

It comes down to enforcing our laws. All 50 states have laws on the books banning private militias. And yet, they're allowed to operate with relative freedom and we need to put a stop to that. We need to equip the men and women of the military and their spouses and family members with basic --

LEMON: Right.

NEUMANN: -- bystander training to be able to detect when a loved one might be going down a darker path --

LEMON: Yeah.

NEUMANN: -- and get them some help before they cross that criminal threshold.

LEMON: Absolutely. I hope we get a handle on it. Thank you so much, secretary. I appreciate you joining us this evening. Thank you.

NEUMANN: Thanks for having me.

LEMON (on camera): So, backlash for "The Bachelor." The show's host steps aside after defending a contestant for dressing up and partying at a plantation in a plantation-style antebellum party. The first black lead of the show who he said this to is here next.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHRIS HARRISON, TV SHOW HOST: My guess, these girls got dressed up and went to a party and had a great time. They were 18 years old. Now, does that make it OK? I don't know, Rachael. You tell me.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[23:45:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON (on camera): So, race issues in the spotlight at "The Bachelor" on its first season with the black man in the lead, Matt James.

So it turns out one of the women seeking his affection, Rachael Kirkconnell, has faced allegations of racism in the past, and she attended a party in 2018 where the theme was the antebellum party old south.

The host of "The Bachelor," Chris Harrison, added fuel to the fire in an interview on "Extra" with Rachel Lindsay, who was the first black lead on "The Bachelorette" a few seasons back. He defended Kirkconnell attending the party. Listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HARRISON: We all need to have a little grace, a little understanding, a little compassion because I have seen some staff online, again, this judge-jury execution thing where people are tearing this girl's life apart. Is it a good look in 2018 or is it not a good look in 2021?

RACHEL LINDSAY, FIRST BLACK LEAD ON "THE BACHELORETTE": It's not a good look ever because she is celebrating the old south. If I went to that party, what would I represent at that party?

HARRISON: I don't -- I don't disagree with you. You're 100 percent right in 2021. That was not the case in 2018. I'm not defending Rachael. I just know that -- I don't know. Fifty million people did that in 2018 between -- you know, it's like they were -- that was a type of party that a lot of people went to.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[23:50:06]

LEMON (on camera): Twenty-eighteen. OK. Not that long ago. So Harrison has now stepped away for a period of time as host.

Joining me now is Rachel Lindsay. I also want to point out that "The Bachelor" is produced by Warner Brothers, part of CNN's parent company Warner Media.

Thank you very much. That is not, you know, we are going to talk about it regardless. Rachel, I am so glad you're here. When you --

LINDSAY: Thank you for having me.

LEMON: What did you think when you heard Chris Harrison made this distinction between attending an old south antebellum-themed party in 2018 versus now? I mean, 2018 was just like yesterday. We had -- Charlottesville had happened in 2018. We had racial reckoning in America in 2018. Was somehow OK then?

LINDSAY: Well, we had racist issues on the show in 2017. There was a race -- racist contestant casted for my season. In 2018, the lead picked someone who had -- who was liking racist, xenophobic, transphobic, homophobic things on social media. So we have dealt with this within the franchise.

So, my initial reaction was I was shocked. I thought maybe he misspoke. But then when he continued down this path, I thought oh, no, this is really what he wants to say. And I felt I needed to let him say it.

LEMON: Why do you think Chris Harrison was willing to give Rachael Kirkconnell so much room for her hurtful actions, yet couldn't muster empathy towards communities of color who are offended or even to you, in that interview, correct me if I am wrong, seemingly as if trying to teach you something or -- I mean, just -- go on.

LINDSAY: Well, I think that's the problem in our society is that people aren't trying to understand the other side. He knew how to defend himself and what he represents. You know, he has children that are of college-age. Maybe, that's what he was seeing.

It was baffling to me that he was preaching grace and space and compassion, but you are talking to someone. You're not giving them that same thing or the community that she represents or the very people who are offended by the actions of the girl that you're defending.

It really was baffling in the moment. But I thought if you're going to say this, then folks need to hear it.

LEMON: Yeah. And -- and you put the whole thing, so that everyone can see it, unedited, so that you wouldn't be accused of editing the interview.

Let me just tell you what -- he apologized, right? He apologized for his comments to you and he says, I took a stance on topics about which I should have been better informed. While I do not speak for Rachael Kirkconnell, my intentions were simply to ask for grace in offering her an opportunity to speak on her own behalf. What I now realize I have done is cause harm by wrongly speaking in a manner that perpetuates racism and for that I am so deeply sorry.

Rachael Kirkconnell has also apologized and she said, at one point, I didn't recognize how offensive and racist my actions were, but that doesn't excuse them. My age or when it happened does not excuse anything. They are not acceptable or OK in any sense. I was ignorant, but my ignorance was racist.

OK. So, do you -- I don't know if these apologies are sincere or what have you. All right. That's -- Rachael did what Rachael did. You haven't interviewed her --

LINDSAY: Right.

LEMON: -- but you interviewed Chris. Chris has been on this earth for five decades. He is 49 years old. And he hasn't had to deal with these issues? He hasn't taken the opportunity or the chance in almost 50 years, especially doing what he does and the history of the show, to learn about racism in America? That's actually the definition of privilege.

LINDSAY: Absolutely. And I think that Chris -- this was a teachable moment for people because everyone wants to say, you think racism just has to be explicit. This was an example of implicit racism.

There were some unconscious bias that Chris Harrison had that were coming out in that interview, and I think that he has realized that and that's where that apology is coming from, why he -- why he says he was perpetuating racism.

That's exactly what was happening, as he wasn't able to see what an antebellum party represents. What I would represent if I was attending that party. You are celebrating a time where I was in slavery. I was recognized as three-fifths of a person.

LEMON: Well, Rachel, listen, the whole thing -- it was stunning to me because he kept talking about cancel culture and making it about him and about cancel culture.

And listen, you know, I don't know Chris Harrison. I have seen him and admired his work, but I don't know him personally. But he -- it was a window into how he thinks because he kept talking about the "woke police" and all this. And --

LINDSAY: Yeah.

LEMON: -- and we know that terminology is used by people who want to be able to say and do racist things without consequence.

[23:55:00]

LEMON: Because what does he mean by the "woke police" and -- what is that?

LINDSAY: Yeah, you really could have inserted the word accountable or accountability instead of "woke police." It was almost as if you don't get to say whatever you want and then blame people for holding you accountable for that. That's just not how it works, and I felt like that's what was happening in that moment.

And I think Chris is realizing that, which again, we are seeing this in not one, but now two apologies, and with him acting by stepping aside. So, we will see where we go from here. We'll see what's learned.

LEMON: Yeah. Well, we'll talk more. We will have you back. Rachel, thank you. It was a pleasure talking to you. Thank you for appearing. So --

LINDSAY: Thanks so much for having me.

LEMON: I wrote something that could help with these conversations, like the one I -- that hope you'll check out. OK. And that is in my new book. It's called "This Is the Fire: What I Say To My Friends About Racism." It is coming out soon. You can pre-order it anywhere you order books or anywhere books are sold. And thank you for watching, everyone. Make sure you tune in tomorrow night, right? Thanks for watching.

Our coverage tomorrow night, President Joe Biden is going to join Anderson live from Milwaukee, Wisconsin in an exclusive presidential town hall, 9:00 p.m. Eastern, right here on CNN. I will see you tomorrow night.

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