Return to Transcripts main page
Don Lemon Tonight
Media Debates On Revelations By The Duke And Duchess Of Sussex; Royal Baby Deprived Of Rights; COVID Relief Bill Waiting For A Vote; Racism Not Much Talk In Britain; Former Papa John's CEO Upset Of Racism. Aired 10-11p ET
Aired March 08, 2021 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[22:00:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CHRIS CUOMO, CNN HOST (on camera): Thank you very much. Big things to discuss, so we must go to the big show "CNN TONIGHT," and its big star D. Lemon.
DON LEMON, CNN HOST: I love that conversation you were just having.
CUOMO: Why?
LEMON: Because there's so much about colorism and shading and, you know. These are the talks that we have all the time, you and I have all the time. And, by the way, let me just say something about Friday. Do you mind if I talk about that?
CUOMO: No, I'm sure people will love it. No. In truth, leave it alone. Let's stick with the positives.
LEMON: OK. All right. If you want to --
(CROSSTALK)
CUOMO: Stick with the positive. We don't need to cause problems that don't exist. We have enough that do exist.
LEMON: I thought it was much ado about nothing.
CUOMO: Listen.
LEMON: And I think, look, I know you don't want to talk about it. This is why you -- this is the reason I wrote the book. This is why you have conversations with people who don't look like you so that you can have a degree of comfort with them to be able to discuss these things and you know their intentions.
So, as I always say and I've said to you since I met you, and you know that, if you don't have a friend who looks up -- doesn't look like you, you're not doing it right. Right?
CUOMO: I hear you. Look, I got a lot of black friends, but none like you. You're one of one in my book. LEMON: Yes.
CUOMO: And I'll tell you why I thought it was relevant. One, I'm always happy to talk about what I say. I'm more inclined to talk about what I do versus what other people do when they want to talk about what I said.
LEMON: Yes.
CUOMO: But we'll leave that to the side because people don't follow these issues.
LEMON: Right.
CUOMO: And the reason I thought Meghan Markle was really impressive to me was, one, talking about your pain is not easy.
LEMON: It's not.
CUOMO: OK? Even with Oprah Winfrey who may be the most empathic person I've ever seen on television.
LEMON: Yes.
CUOMO: But still, and for the right to come out --
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: Although where they say, they said what?
CUOMO: Yes.
LEMON: Can get you to say, yes, Oprah, they said that?
CUOMO: Yes.
LEMON: You can't believe it, right.
CUOMO: She just, she is real.
LEMON: Right.
CUOMO: She is real in every mode, beautiful to watch. Why is the right coming after Meghan Markle? I thought they were about anti-elitism. I thought they were about 1776 again. Why are they coming after her for saying that the royals didn't like the shade of the baby? Why doesn't the kid have any standard? Why would she lie? What does this do for her, what does this do for her husband?
LEMON: Because they're absolutely willing to believe that the -- I think they believe that the mental health angle of it may be correct, right, that the maybe postpartum depression part of it may be --
(CROSSTALK)
CUOMO: Why would Harry feel that way? LEMON: OK.
CUOMO: It's not contagious.
LEMON: But they're not willing to believe the racism or racist part of it. What does it say about the people who are coming after her? And there are a lot of people who are -- a number of people out there coming after her. And they're doing it because they want to be relevant. That's it. Nothing more, nothing less.
CUOMO: But it's more pernicious than that to me. Yes, there's always -- there's always people looking to hate as opportunity. It works great on the internet. But it just didn't -- it was so weird to me --
LEMON: It says more about them than it says about her.
CUOMO: Well, look, again, I didn't -- I'm a pretty good judge of credibility. You know, I've been observing of human behavior for 25 years. What I'm saying is, she has no motive to lie, she gains. She is not suing. And why would so many people on the right think it's so important to say that this brown person was messed up for saying how these white people didn't like the color of her baby?
And then, look, the mental health stuff to me was a home run. Because to discuss pain -- forget illness. To discuss pain that your husband was worried about, he didn't know how to handle it, he felt weird about it, that the institution of royals didn't want you to get help. So many people live with that here. The institution is your family, your friends, your job, your social standing. Theirs it was the royals. I was knocked out by it. I hope it helps people open up.
LEMON: Well, because people don't want to believe it. people don't want to believe. Listen, people don't want to deal with the original sin of this country. People don't want to deal with racism. There are racism deniers all over. We're living in a racism denier time right here in the United States and I think in the U.K. as well.
People don't want to deal with it because -- and that is, as I say to you, Chris, that's the height of privilege. For you to be able to live in a world where it does not exist, or that you can deny it is the height of privilege, until Harry, sadly, had this very rude awakening when all of a sudden he got a black fiancee and the black wife and then black baby.
He had a rude awakening and I'm glad that he had this awakening or this epiphany because now he knows. But most people don't have to deal with it because they don't. It doesn't exist to them. So, they -- if it doesn't exist, what does that mean?
(CROSSTALK)
[22:05:01]
CUOMO: And I'll tell you something.
LEMON: You can absolutely deny it. CUOMO: Absolutely. And there is a comfort that people take -- and I've
seen it in and around me. Look, I'm not like that. So that's enough. No.
LEMON: No.
CUOMO: Only the majority can change racism. The minority can't change it.
LEMON: Yes.
CUOMO: They don't have the power. It has to be that it is unacceptable to the majority on every level of systemic inequality. And now that's called an ally and, you know, and there is still a lot of reflex ugliness. Look at them. Look at Cuomo trying to do anything he can, you know, to be with the black community, the brown community.
There is still a stigma attached to that, too.
LEMON: Yes.
CUOMO: It was like stigma fest watching that interview for me. It was. It was like -- wait, why are these conservatives attacking her by lying about the royals? It has to be a color play. How can it not be about it?
LEMON: As I said, it says things -- sometimes when people speak up and they say things, it reveals more about them than they want to reveal or that they should. And so, I think all those people who are coming after her, rather than saying -- rather than doing it with empathy or with an open mind or saying, well, rather than being -- they're being judgmental instead of --
(CROSSTALK)
CUOMO: They're being accusatory.
LEMON: -- and accusatory instead of curious, why does she feel that way, why might she feel that way?
CUOMO: Why won't she say the names?
LEMON: Why won't she say the names?
CUOMO: I'm happy she didn't say the names. Why would she want to destroy that person, you know, I mean, she's hurt, but --
LEMON: Perhaps -- perhaps that she has an issue. Perhaps it says I have a shortcoming. Perhaps I have an unconscious bias. Until -- until you do something -- until you do that, it's never going to change.
CUOMO: I hear you.
LEMON: You live in that world.
CUOMO: Now I want to put something up for you and then I'll leave you alone.
LEMON: OK. What?
CUOMO: Covering this trial is going to be a bear with Derek Chauvin --
LEMON: Yes.
CUOMO: -- because there is going to be a flood of conflicting testimony from the officers at the scene.
LEMON: And?
CUOMO: The problem for a jury is, what are you doing? You're trying to assess whether any other explanation other than the prosecutors makes as much sense as their story. That's beyond a reasonable doubt layman's version.
LEMON: Right.
CUOMO: When you're in the room. Does anything else make as much sense as what they're saying?
LEMON: Yes.
CUOMO: When you have a flood of testimony from all people involved in an event, it can get confusing fast.
LEMON: Yes.
CUOMO: Them adding the third-degree murder charge -- I've been looking into it -- they were moved -- Laura Coates was spot on as always, so smart. That it really goes to like almost terrorism without the political motivation, where you drive into a crowd. That's their degrade. In New York they call it a deprived mind murder.
LEMON: Or deprave as difference.
CUOMO: And it often misapplied as a middle ground. They added it. They want to add it back. And I think that it is a window they know they have a tough case.
LEMON: Well, I think -- I think beyond that that they -- it's also going to be the character assassination on -- you know, during the trial.
CUOMO: Yes. And you'll hear that in the testimony.
LEMON: Yes.
CUOMO: He seemed like he was on drugs. You know, he seemed like --
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: It has nothing to do with anything. It doesn't have to do with anything but except for the court of public opinion, and maybe it could sway a jury. I got -- CUOMO: If it gets into a trial. But I just want to say, we're going to cover it, I know you're going to cover it, we'll probably cover it together at some point. It's going to be a bear. And people have to focus, they have to listen, they have to be open and then we'll see what happens.
LEMON: I got to run. Like 10 minutes ago.
CUOMO: I love you, D. Lemon.
LEMON: I love you, too, my brother. I'll talk to you soon.
This is CNN TONIGHT. I'm Don Lemon.
So, I know, look, we went on, we've got a lot to talk about. So, just go with me here. No matter how you feel about this Meghan Markle, Prince Harry interview, right? Whether you think she should have stuck it out with the royal family longer, she wasn't a royal long enough, whatever you feel, what is she doing, they're profiting, and all the stuff. Whatever you feel about it, OK, fine. Do that. I've heard all of it today.
But I want to bring this to human terms, OK? OK? So, I want all of you as people who have family and children, I want you to just imagine this. Imagine, right, put yourself in someone else's shoes. But just imagine being told that your unborn baby won't have the same privileges, won't have the same protections as everyone else in the family. Imagine one of your in-laws asking questions about the color of your unborn baby's skin.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MEGHAN MARKLE, DUCHESS OF SUSSEX: In those months when I was pregnant, all around this same time, so we have in tandem the conversation of, he won't be given security, he's not going to be given a title, and also concerns and conversations about how dark his skin might be when he's born.
OPRAH WINFREY, TV HOST: What?
MARKLE: And --
WINFREY: Who -- who is having that conversation with you? What?
[22:10:06]
MARKLE: So, there is a --
WINFREY: There's a con -- hold up.
MARKLE: There are several conversations.
WINFREY: There's a conversation with you --
MARKLE: With Harry.
WINFREY: -- about how dark your baby is going to be?
MARKLE: Potentially, and what that would mean or look like.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON (on camera): Conversation like that about your baby. Imagine people talking that way about your baby. Before your baby is even born. It's awful. But sadly, it's not shocking, not at all, not to people of color. I don't think anybody who watched Harry and Meghan's interview with Oprah or who watched how Meghan was treated, how people talked about her could really be surprised about that.
Remember the racist lie about Meghan being almost straight out of Compton? Right, that's The Daily Mail. Straight out of Compton. Racism is racism. Doesn't matter whether you live in a shack or a palace. Prince Harry says that he will never share that conversation about his son. But he tells Oprah it wasn't with the queen or Prince Philip.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
WINFREY: It was not his grandmother nor his grandfather that were a part of those conversations?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON (on camera): So, and Harry says that racism directed at Meghan and their son Archie, racism especially from the British press, he says, was a big part of why they stepped away from the royal family.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
WINFREY: Did you leave the country because of racism?
PRINCE HARRY, DUKE OF SUSSEX: It was a large -- it was a large part of it. I remember that the Sentebale fund-raiser --
WINFREY: Yes.
HARRY: -- one of the people at that dinner said to me, please don't, please don't do this with the media. They will destroy your life.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON (on camera): So, let's be clear about this. The monarchy, the British monarchy is a caste system, a hierarchy based on blood lines. Think about that. And then ask yourself again if it is a surprise that they wondered, you know, what would Baby Archie's skin color be.
Skin color has really been whispered about, talked about right out loud for centuries. As I just talked about Chris -- talked to Chris about, I write about it in my book "This is a Fire." What I say to my friends about racism. And I just want to share the kind of words that I've heard and then I wrote about.
I say people who were three quarters Black were griffes. Mulattoes were half Black, quadrons a quarter, octoroons an eight, and so on, down to the 164th Black sangmelee.
These anachronistic terms offend our ears now, but the old paper bag sliding valuation of skin tone versus stature still whispers in the subconscious mind of the job interviewer and the job applicant, the loan officer, and the loan applicant, the teacher and the student, the cop and the citizen.
We'd like to think that we have moved beyond all that, but have we really? Now we can add, duchess, princess and prince to that list.
Meghan and Harry's story is a story of how hard it can be to change institutions, to change societies and cultures. How hard it is to talk about race sometimes. Now, we haven't heard from the royal family since Meghan and Harry's interview with Oprah aired there tonight. But some people will say that we haven't heard from the other side. But they didn't listen to one of their own. They let him go.
And somehow this painful story for a real couple, their son, their unborn daughter, somehow, it's just because it's another chapter of the culture wars on the right, it has become that. Fox News, of course, Fox News, apparently thinks that racism magically disappears if you have enough money.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LAURA INGRAHAM, HOST, FOX NEWS: Although the royal couple now lives in a $14 million mansion, Duchess Meghan maintains they are just trying to get back to the basics.
UNKNOWN: It's hard for me to believe they are the victims in this.
UNKNOWN: We know that Prince Harry got $20 million when his mother died. There is so much money here. It's really hard to pity them.
PETE HEGSETH, CONTRIBUTOR, FOX NEWS: They're going to have plenty money the rest of their lives. I just don't know what the point of that interview was.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON (on camera): What does money have to do with -- what does that -- money takes away racism? It makes it not a thing? Come on, you all, all of you. When you're living in privilege you don't see racism. Even when it's happening right before your eyes.
[22:15:02]
Even when you see a white police officer with his knee on the neck of a black man begging for his life, 8 minutes 46 seconds.
By the way, the trial of the former Minneapolis police officer Derek Chauvin in the death of George Floyd set to begin tomorrow morning.
And a new poll finds that 60 percent of Black Americans describe what happened as murder. Only 28 percent of white Americans said this was murder. I'm going to talk to a member of George Floyd's family later on in the show.
And all of this is happening as President Joe Biden, his $1.9 trillion COVID relief bill goes back to the House Wednesday for a final vote. A bill that could get desperately needed aid to people who can't pay the rent or put food on the table and could cut child poverty in half. A bill that passed without one single Republican vote while the GOP was stoking the outrage machine over Dr. Seuss.
What has happened to the GOP? What are they running on if not relief for desperate Americans? They're running on empty, pointless culture wars and tying themselves up into knots over a former president who is in the rearview mirror.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM (R-SC): I could say, you know, that's it, it's over, it's done. That's just too easy.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON (on camera): That's exactly what you said. Remember?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GRAHAM: Trump and I, we've had a hell of a journey. I hate it being this way. My God, I hate it. From my point of view, he's been a consequential president. But today, first thing you'll see, all I can say is count me out. Enough is enough.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON (on camera): That was then. That's when the capitol was still being cleaned up after a deadly riot. This is now. Republicans like Lindsey Graham are back in thrall to a disgraced, twice impeached, one-term former president.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GRAHAM: There is something about Trump. There is a dark side and there's some magic there. What I'm trying to do is just harness the magic. To me, Donald Trump is sort of a cross between Jesse Helms, Ronald Reagan and P.T. Barnum.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON (on camera): Magic? It's not, perhaps, it is nothing but an empty trick. It's a con. The last administration brought us insurrection, division and racism. And that's the last thing America needs.
President Joe Biden is about to give one of his top priorities, his COVID relief bill without support from even one single Republican. Is the GOP making a big mistake here? Plus, the palace in turmoil over Meghan and Harry's interview with Oprah.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) MARKLE: They were willing to lie to protect other members of the family, but they weren't willing to tell the truth to protect me and my husband.
[22:20:00]
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON (on camera): President Biden hoping he can sign his top legislative priority into law this week with the House on track for a final vote Wednesday on his nearly $2 trillion COVID relief package. The massive bill could give all kinds of help to struggling Americans, including the $1,400 stimulus check for families that qualified.
It also continues the $300 weekly unemployment benefit through September 6, provides more money for small businesses, and provides billions in funding for vaccines and testing. The package also providing an extraordinary amount of help for families with children, including a big boost to the child tax credit that will actually put monthly checks in families' pockets. And it provides significant funding and subsidies for child care.
Let's discuss now. CNN chief political correspondent and co-anchor of State of the Union, Dana Bash, and CNN's senior commentator former Ohio Governor John Kasich.
Good evening to both of you. So glad to have you on.
Dana, I'm going to start with you. Democrats are on the brink of getting this relief package into law, not one Republican is backing this bill. Is that a big miscalculation on their part? Because the bill has the bipartisan support of the American people.
DANA BASH, CNN CHIEF POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: It does. I mean, most polls show more than a majority, vast majority of Americans say that they support this, which is almost certainly why Republicans were not out there railing against the bill. They weren't railing against the substance.
I mean, you certainly heard some around the margins talking about the size and the scope and about the extraneous things that they said were in this bill that didn't belong in this bill.
However, for the most part, the Republican talking points over the past week have been about something completely different, which is the culture wars, which is Dr. Seuss and things that they know really galvanize, particularly the Trump base, especially at a time when this same base was told by the former president that they should support big direct payments. In fact, bigger than what the Democrats had in their bill.
So that's a big reason why, for the most part, we heard them side stepping the criticism of this bill.
LEMON: Governor Kasich, you said that the bill is overstuffed, no one expects Republicans to sign onto a massive spending package, but a lot of -- a lot of the party would rather focus on Dr. Seuss, on Mr. Potato Head, banning the culture wars. I mean, it's not even -- it's not even red meat for the base. It's just a steady diet of cancel culture.
JOHN KASICH, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: No, I mean, look, Don, my sense of this is I would really hope and we could have been at one- two, or one-three with Republicans, a group of them, 10 of them committing to vote for that. That's how a negotiation starts.
The Republicans say look, trim it back. These are the areas we want to trim it back. You can't go all the way back to what you originally prosed as Republicans. After all, you know, Biden was elected president.
On the Republican side, I don't think they had the votes of people that were willing to stand up and say we support a package. On the Democrat side, I don't think they were particularly interested in any compromise. So, we are what we are.
And Don, we really live, I believe in an "I" culture today, not in a "we" culture. We live in a culture where it's all about me, what I want, what my ego is, my reelection, instead of a "we" culture where we can pull together.
[22:25:05]
Because as Teddy Roosevelt said, at the end, we either go up or down together. I think the Republicans made a mistake here. There are a lot of people hurting. I'm very worried about the national debt. I'm worried about inflation. But we also have a crisis right now. Do I wish the bill were smaller? I do. But at the end, should it pass, it's amazing to me that not one Republican supported it. And I'm like the budget hawk of all budget hawks. OK?
LEMON: Dana, Democratic Senator Joe Manchin saying that he wants more Republicans to be involved on Biden's next big package. Listen to this and then we'll talk about it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. JOE MANCHIN (D-WV): If my Democrats have bought on -- my fellow Democrats have bought on that you had no Republican friends that will work in a reasonable manner, I don't subscribe to that and I am not going to get on a bill that cuts them out completely.
UNKNOWN: Do you believe that you can get 10 Republicans on an infrastructure bill?
MANCHIN: I sure do. If we do it right.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON (on camera): Dana, do Republicans have any desire to work with Biden or are they going to continue to be obstructionist?
BASH: You know, I'm going to maybe sound like Pollyanna here, but I do think depending on the issue, the answer is yes, there could be room for negotiation and for compromise, depending on the issue and depending on how it ends up.
And the reason for that is that particularly after the way that things went in 2020 at the polls, not just at the presidential level, but when it came to the U.S. Senate and Democrats taking control. There are a number of Republicans I talked to who are currently serving in the Senate who say that they do feel that they have to show that they know how to govern at some point, at some point soon. And they are looking for ways to do that.
Was it on this bill? Of course not. They didn't see it that way at all for the reasons that Governor Kasich just laid out in terms of the actual -- the politics of it, but the actual size of the bill. But, you know, infrastructure has kind of been the white whale of compromises in recent years here in Washington. Perhaps that is a place where they can go.
But just like you heard Joe Manchin also say in separate interviews and also Republicans say, let's just say that they have infrastructure on the table. How are they going to do it? Is it going to be with government spending? Is it going to be with significant tax breaks? Is it going to be a combination of both? The answers to those questions will be dependent on the yes or no about getting a deal.
LEMON: Yes. We had a lot of infrastructure week. So, with the last administration.
BASH: Exactly.
LEMON: Hey, quick, answer for me if you can, John. Manchin is signaling that he's open to the filibuster reform. You have historically been behind keeping the filibuster. But even if you disagree with getting rid of it, what's the alternative if Republicans aren't acting in good faith?
KASICH: Well, I think, first of all, Joe Manchin may be signaling to Republicans -- I thought about this tonight. He may just be saying, look, if you're not going to cooperate on anything, you're just going to wear out my patience and I want to see things happen.
On the infrastructure bill, I mean, listen, Republicans and Democrats all like filling potholes and going to bridge opening and everything else. That's the best chance. But I would like to see compromise on healthcare, I would like to see compromise on immigration. I'd like to see compromise when it comes to the wealth game. There are many issues at which they can agree upon.
What I worry about, Don, is Republicans say or think, we'll just oppose them on everything, call them a bunch of socialists and then we can win back the House and win back the Senate. And that's just not the way. Because that's back to the I. I want to be in charge. I want to be important. I want my way. And that's baloney when it comes to serving the public. We need we, not I.
LEMON: Thank you both. I appreciate it. See you soon. The world reacting tonight to Meghan and Harry's interview with one
big exception. We are live in Windsor, next.
[22:30:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
LEMON (voice over): We are watching her in the carriage and she's waiving. Let's think about this. Can you imagine, you're an American woman, you're now married to a prince, you're a princess, and you have all these people lined up and they're waiving. They're there for you.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
LEMON (on camera): That was part of my live coverage of the wedding of Prince Harry and Meghan Markle. That was in May of 2018 at Windsor Castle. And now nearly three years later we're waiting for Buckingham Palace to respond to the bombshell interview Harry and Meghan gave to Oprah. They're accusing the royal family of racism and neglect.
Meghan revealing that she contemplated suicide and Harry pointing to severe strain with his father Prince Charles and his brother Prince William. More tonight on the interview fallout from CNN's Max Foster.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BORIS JOHNSON, BRITISH PRIME MINISTER: I've spent a long time now not commenting on royal family matters and I don't intend to depart from that today.
MAX FOSTER, CNN LONDON CORRESPONDENT: Addressing the elephant in the room, U.K. Prime Minister Boris Johnson side stepped the question of Harry and Meghan's bombshell interview with Oprah Winfrey, commenting only about his admiration of the queen and her role as unifier. The palace so far having no comment whatsoever on the interview that highlighted exactly just how disunified the royal family had become, leading to the so-called "Megxit."
PRINCE HARRY: There's a lot of hurt that happened.
FOSTER: Airing a few hours ago in the U.K. for the first time in full, the question is just how damning will this interview be to the royal family. After all, it was everything it was billed to be and more. Detailing a royal rift between father and son.
PRINCE HARRY: I feel really let down.
FOSTER: A gulf between brothers who had weathered so much together.
PRINCE HARRY: I love William to bits, but we, you know, we were on different paths.
FOSTER: Candid and intimate, no topic off limits.
MARKLE: I just didn't want to be alive any more, and that was a very clear and real and frightening constant thought.
[22:34:59]
FOSTER: The revelation that amongst other things, isolation, a barrage of character assassinations by the British tabloids had driven the duchess of Sussex to thoughts of suicide in and of itself is shocking, leading to a show of support today from the White House.
JEN PSAKI, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: For anyone to come forward and speak about their own struggles with mental health and tell their own personal story, that takes courage.
FOSTER: But the insidious undercurrent of racism perhaps the most damning claim and the most explosive interview to rock the royal family since his mother's interview with Martin Bashir.
PRINCE HARRY: What I was seeing was history repeating itself or perhaps or definitely far more dangerous because then you add race in.
FOSTER: One of the most jaw-dropping accounts in the raw and emotional interview with Oprah Winfrey, that unnamed members of the royal family were worried about the skin color of Harry and Meghan's son.
MARKLE: And also concerns and conversation about how dark his skin might be when he's born.
WINFREY: What?
MARKLE: And --
WINFREY: Who -- who is having that conversation with you? What?
MARKLE: So, there is a --
WINFREY: There is a conversation -- hold up, hold up.
(CROSSTALK)
MARKLE: There are several conversations.
WINFREY: There's a --
FOSTER: Which member or members of the royal family was it Harry and Meghan wouldn't say. Oprah Winfrey on Monday only saying she knows who it wasn't.
WINFREY: But he wanted to make sure that I knew and if I had an opportunity to share it, that it was not his grandmother nor his grandfather that were a part of those conversations.
FOSTER: Leaving open the question just who could have said it. Another shock, their son wouldn't be given a title or the security protections normally afforded to members of the royal family with no reason given for why.
MARKLE: The idea of our son not being safe and also the idea of the first member of color in this family not being titled in the same way that other grandchildren would be.
FOSTER: Racism clearly emerging from the interview as one of the key factors driving Harry and Meghan from the royal family. The couple saying had they only had the family's support, they would have gladly stayed.
The very tabloids that Harry and Meghan say drove their mental health to the brink were swift to get the splashy headlines. The Daily Mail, U.K., saying Harry twists the knife. Meanwhile, the broad chief the Daily Telegraph saying, Sussex's has delivered enough bombshells to sink a flotilla.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON (on camera): And CNN's Max Foster joins me now live in Windsor. This is his beat. And we actually covered the wedding together, Max. Good to see you again. I can only imagine the turmoil inside the palace right now. What do you think is going on and will we see a statement from the palace soon?
FOSTER: I think this is, you know, this is a family business, isn't it? This is where the challenge is. So, there are some very personal stuff said there by the Sussex's over in California. They're having to digest that. Then you've got a situation where, you know, these profound issues they're having to address here.
There's only three people that could really deal with it. That's the queen, Prince Charles, and Prince William have to agree between them. And the queen will have to announce in some way. That's over here in Windsor. This is where she's based at the moment down the road, Frogmore Cottages that U.K. base for the Sussex's as well.
I think that they're going to have to sit around a table effectively, you know, a virtual table, of course, and try to work out how to deal, unpick all of the many elements here that are challenging to the monarchy. On top of the list you have them there, is the race issue and it's the neglect.
And there are answer -- there are subjects they have to address somehow. You know, the British public want answers on that, but they're very sensitive issues. Everyone too emotional to deal with them rationally. There will be lots of aides weighing in. I don't know if the prime minister has weighed in as well.
So very complex matters. That's probably why it's taking longer for this to come out. I have to say, Don, in the last couple of hours, reports coming out of the U.K. papers that actually the queen was presented with a statement but she wasn't comfortable with it, didn't want to sign it off. Does that mean it was too aggressive for her, written up by Charles and William? We just don't know. We're waiting for details will come tomorrow.
LEMON: And Max Foster will be covering it all for us. Max, thank you so much. I appreciate your reporting. If you or someone you know needs help, please call the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline at 1-800- 273-8255, 1-800-273-8255. And if you want more information about how you can support suicide prevention, please go to cnn.com/impact.
Make sure you stay with us. More on Meghan and Harry's interview. The allegations shocking, but Oprah isn't surprised for the reason you think.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
[22:39:57]
UNKNOWN: When you say you were surprised about the skin tone conversation, were you surprised that would be true inside the palace or were you surprised they were telling you about it?
WINFREY: I was surprised that they were telling me about it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON (on camera): Meghan and Harry's explosive interview with Oprah Winfrey airing tonight on British TV. But the fallout has been intense since the interview was first broadcast here in the United States last night, especially over the allegation that someone in the royal family expressed concern about the skin color of the couple's son, Archie.
So, I want to bring in now TV presenter Trisha Goddard. Trisha, thank you. I know that you have been working around the clock on this story. I've been watching you all day. We have never gotten -- thank you for joining us, by the way. We've never gotten a look inside the royal family like this.
What did you think when you heard Meghan Markle say an unnamed family member was concerned or they had conversations with Harry about how dark Archie's skin color might be?
[22:45:02]
TRISHA GODDARD, BRITISH TV PRESENTER: Shocked, but not surprised really. You know, that is what the British empire is after all built on. Here's the problem in Britain. It's very different, I think, in the United States compared to Britain and there are two things -- many things at play here.
For one thing, I think racism -- British people, in general, don't see racism as a problem. British white people. And they define racism as something like being beaten up for your color, very overt things. The whole concept of systemic racism while it's discussed quite a lot in the United States, it's not really discussed in Britain.
The United States, you had slaves on this soil. In Britain, they did their slavery overseas. They went into countries like the west Indies where my mother is from. They took slaves, they did their slavery offshore, if you like.
So, I think the British approach is we didn't have slaves so we were nice, we're benign and what have you. So, it's not a conversation that's really been had. So, when you come out and say, Americans say does this mean that the royal family is racist? In most British minds they say -- the people are saying, if they were racist, they wouldn't have let Harry marry her.
And one newspaper editor, assistant editor actually said, come on, Meghan's absolutely stunning. She's gorgeous. I mean, you know, she's not Black. She's not like Oprah. Now that's a Black woman. Yes, and I was going to start one of my interviews with one of the commentators this morning with, am I pretty or am I Black? So, there are lots of issues like that.
LEMON: Yes.
GODDARD: We don't have the level of recognition. Black Lives Matter was, you know, slightly more surface, sadly, not for ones of trying than it was in the United States.
LEMON: Well, let me continue with this issue of colorism. Right? Are you pretty or are you Black, right? Prince Harry explained how the pressure typically felt by royals was different this time because of race. He says that it triggered him to talk to the palace.
He is someone who comes from incredible privilege and he is being confronted with something that he has never had to deal with intimately before. He took a walk in her shoes.
GODDARD: And it's not just privilege. I have been absolutely inundated, Don, from people in mixed relationships, either racially or religious, and they all -- they can all identify with their partner who comes from, if you like, the dominant culture.
I have a white Jewish boyfriend, and although he knows very much -- we talk about anti-Semitism, he has been shocked by some of the things that I'm always casual about like, yes, of course that happened. And he's enraged by it. And he'll confront people about it.
And my thing is, and it sounds awful. If I did that every single day, I would have died 20 years ago of sheer exhaustion. You almost become used to it, which is really sad. So, you know, Meghan, I was trying to explain to people that somebody -- people saying, it can't be that bad, someone asking about the color of your child.
I said you have to add to that all the micro aggressions before that, all the comparisons with Kate, the English rose, you know. And all the micro aggression she would have gone through much earlier in her life. And Harry is seeing that for the first time.
Now, I don't remember -- if you remember when Harry was younger, he was criticized for doing fancy dress and dressing up as Hitler and calling one of his friends from Pakistan a slur, so he's learned. And I never condemn anyone for doing stupid things when they're young. But he has been on a very steep learning curve.
One comment that you've heard -- that has been heard many times, is maybe he's doing what Charles should have done with Diana, you know.
LEMON: That's right.
GODDARD: He's coming out swinging for his family. He's protecting his family. He wants to keep his family together and he wants to keep the press from hounding them and creating a situation, as he says, revisiting the past.
LEMON: Well, there is so much to continue to talk about and we'll have you back and discuss because as you know, as we were both covering this three years ago, and here we are now, so there's bound to be more developments. Thank you, Trisha. It's good to see you. Get some rest, please.
GODDARD: I will. Thank you very much for having me.
LEMON: Thank you. So, Papa John's founder says he is not racist and as evidence, he says that he spent -- you know, and take this, the last 20 months trying to rid his mind of the n-word, yes, 20 months.
[22:50:03]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON (on camera): So, take this. The founder and former CEO of Papa John's Pizza, going after the company's board following his 2018 resignation for using the n-word during a meeting. John Schnatter says that he has been working for 20 months to get the slur out of his vocabulary.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOHN SCHNATTER, FORMER CEO, PAPA JOHN'S PIZZA: They paint the founder as a racist, they know he's not a racist. It's just unbelievable. And I used to lay in bed just going, how did they do this? We've had three goals for the last 20 months. To get rid of this n-word in my vocabulary and dictionary, and everything else. Because it's just not true. Figure out how they did this, and get on with my life.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[22:55:05]
LEMON (on camera): OK. Let's remember the context of his use of the word. Schnatter reportedly complaint that KFC founder Colonel Sanders never faced backlash for calling Blacks the n-word, and he said it during an internal diversity training meeting at Papa John's. A training that was happening after Schnatter said the company's pizza sales were hurt by the NFL's handling of players kneeling during the national anthem and protests of racial injustice. He later apologized, but also said the word isn't a slur.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SCHNATTER: It wasn't a slur. It was a session on strategy and media planning and training, and I repeated something else that somebody said. I said, we're not going to say that. We don't use that kind of language and vocabulary. Sure, it got taken out of context, and sure it got twisted. But that doesn't matter. I hurt people's feelings, that is what matters here. And for that, I'm sorry.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: So fast forward to now. He says that he has worked for 20 months to get the n-word out of his vocabulary. Just wondering why it took that long. Why it was in his vocabulary in the first place.
New guidelines out today. The CDC finally releasing their advice for fully vaccinated people. What they're saying about seeing grandma, next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
