Return to Transcripts main page

Don Lemon Tonight

At Least Eight Dead In Shooting At Three Spas In Atlanta Area; President Biden Says He Supports Resurrecting The Talking Filibuster Rule; Should Gov. Andrew Cuomo Resign?; New COVID-19 Cases Up At Least 10 Percent From Last Week In 15 States; Trump Calls On Americans To Get Vaccinated; Intel Report: Russia Tried To Meddle In 2020 Election; Georgia Voting Rights Activists Pressure Big Corporations To Oppose GOP-Backed Ballot Restrictions; CA Governor Faces Intensifying Recall Threat. Aired 11p-12a ET

Aired March 16, 2021 - 23:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[23:00:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DON LEMON, CNN HOST (on camera): Breaking news tonight. At least eight people killed in shootings at three spas in Metro Atlanta. One suspect is in custody. CNN is live from the scene. President Biden visiting a small business in Pennsylvania as part of his help is here national tour promoting the nearly $2 trillion COVID relief law that didn't get a single Republican vote.

Also tonight, former President Trump encouraging Americans including his supporters to get vaccinated. That as medical experts fear states are easing up their COVID-19 restrictions too fast as a highly contagious variant of the virus spreads quickly in the United States.

Let's get right to our breaking news now. Talking about those shootings at three spas in Georgia tonight, leaving at least eight people dead. Two shootings in northeast Atlanta and one in northwest. One northwest of the city in Cherokee County. A suspect in Cherokee County, and the shooting there has been taken into custody. So let's go right to CNN's Ryan Young. Ryan, good evening to you. The FBI now assisting with this investigation. What can you tell us?

RYAN YOUNG, CNN CORRESPONDENT (on camera): Actually, Don, we know that Robert Long has been arrested in this case. We're told he's 21 years old. That's what the Cherokee County Sheriff's Department released that information early in the evening. What we do know, there was a chase involved in this and the Georgia state patrol actually used a pit maneuver. That's when a trooper uses his car to bump the suspect's car to send it out of control to take that man into custody.

We're not sure yet if he said anything to authorities about the motive behind this case, but obviously police from several different jurisdictions are working with the theory that all these shootings are connected. Now, as I step out of way here, you can still see the active crime scenes.

These shootings started around 5:00 this afternoon. We know they first happened in Cherokee County where four people were shot and killed. And then there are two different scenes here. If you look far to your left here, you can see that one spa right here. And then across the street there is another shooting scene.

Now, detectives and the medical examiner's office are still out here gathering up evidence even at this late hour. We do believe there is also a ton of video surveillance. And that's how the Cherokee County Sheriff's Department was able to put out that image early on. So, they knew that suspect was driving a black Hyundai and that's how they were able to go after that car.

And this has been developing all throughout the evening. We do know that the Cherokee County Sheriff's Department hasn't released any information about the victims shot there because they're still trying to notify next of kin. Here we do know the race of the four people who were shot here. Four Asian women. The spas here all located pretty close.

But the working theory now is that all these cases are connected and of course, we are going to go to the video and try to figure out exactly how this suspect was connected to all these locations.

LEMON: So Ryan, listen, obviously we don't want to get ahead of the investigation here. But we have seen a disturbing rise in attacks against Asian-Americans recently. Do officials think that that could be at least a factor, right, in this shootings? Because we've been reporting on these anti-Asian crimes all over the country. What's going on here, do they think?

YOUNG: Yes. Absolutely, Don. And I think you can tell that we're trying to be very careful in terms of not getting ahead of the investigators. But it does seems like that would played some role in this in terms of the victims involved. Now, was it a fact that he was a customer at some of these places? And was upset about something? Was he targeting these people for a specific reason?

Because obviously Cherokee County is 47 minutes away from here. You have to think about drive time, and traffic, so he drove to this location. He went into one location, then went across the street to the next location. Was he targeting people in particular or was he looking for someone of a certain race? That's something that all the detectives obviously will breakdown.

We know the FBI is assisting. The Governor of Georgia also releasing a statement basically saying that his hearts and prayers go out to the families that are involved in this. He's also thanking law enforcement for the quick apprehension of the suspect. But so many questions at this hour, I don't think that we thought we would be here at this point, Don, when we first started this case earliest morning when they had all the shell casings outside.

[23:05:07]

And we were hearing from witnesses in the area that they heard people screaming and yelling. But now we know a suspect has ben under arrest. We still don't know when that first court appearance will be for that suspect and whether or not he's talking to investigators right now. Who obviously are probably asking those really important questions?

LEMON: Yes. We will let the investigations play out, but certainly in these times, it's a worthwhile question. Thank you, Ryan Young. I appreciate it.

I want to turn now to a whole lot of headlines from President Joe Biden tonight. Let's discuss now with CNN senior political analyst John Avlon and Ron Brownstein. Gentlemen, good evening to you. Good to see you.

RON BROWNSTEIN, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST, AND SENIOR EDITOR OF THE ATLANTIC (on camera): Hi, Don.

LEMON: So, John, let's start with this massive fight that is looming over voting rights. That's what I want to start with. The former president is admitting that Republican can't win if Democrats pass the bill. But it's unlikely that they can't it done without getting rid of that filibuster. And tonight the current president, Biden, is saying that he supports an old-fashioned talking filibuster. Something is going to have to give here. Which one do you think it's going to be?

JOHN AVLON, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST (on camera): There's going to be some form of filibuster reform. When it happens, how it happens is TBD. But you had to understand that the filibuster itself has been used and abused and escalated in reason years, well beyond the way it was back in the day. And this has been misused different times in our history for sure.

But folks have in their mine, the kind of, you know, Mr. Smith goes to Washington talking in the Senate well. Now it is a procedural item that can be done with very little pain, one vote. So what Biden is basically saying is, let's reform the filibuster to get this done and there's a lot of different ways to do that.

You could put the onus on the minority party to get 41 votes. You could put -- say it has got to be in person. It's got to be == there's got tot be skin in the game. But what it can't be is a total blocking of the majority's agenda particularly with regards to voting rights, just by a flick of a switch in affect.

LEMON: So, Ryan, listen, we've discussed this before about how much, you know, the current president is going to work with the other side, who have been obstruction. right. But Joe Biden -- President Biden told George Stephanopoulos, that Republicans will have an epiphany between now and 2022 and start working with him, I mean, -- go on --

BROWNSTEIN: That is going to be his position, right. I mean, he's has position himself almost as a figure above politics, kind of a point where the two parties you know come together, almost an Eisenhower kind of figure. And it is very good positioning for him obviously.

You can see it in the way the public is reacting to the first months of his presidency. The question is, to what extent does the rest of the party act upon that amid, you know, in escapable evidence that there is no epiphany, there is no willingness of Republican to work with on almost anything that they care about. And as John noted, and as you noted, we already know where this, I

think is going to come to a head above all is on these question of voting rights. Because voting rights were explosive enough to begin with. But now they're against the back drop, not of kind of a neutral back drop of nothing happening.

But the choice between Democrats is either you go ahead and you establish a federal floor of voting rights for all Americans, or you are acquiescing in the broadest wave of voter suppression since before Jim Crow. And I think that is the issue on which I think the filibuster is going to come to a head.

LEMON (on camera): John Avlon, President Biden was asked about the sexual harassment allegations against Governor Andrew Cuomo in his ABC interview. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNKNOWN: If the investigation confirms the claims of the women, should he resign?

JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: Yes. I think, he's probably going to be prosecuted too. A woman should be presumed to telling the truth and should not be scapegoated and become victimized by her coming forward. Number one. But there should be an investigation to determine whether what she says is true.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON (on camera): So here's a question, John. This is all coming as new polls show that half of New York voters don't think that Cuomo should resign. And the question is, can he ride this out if the public doesn't turn on him? Because you have all these lawmakers saying, he should resign. He should do (inaudible), he's saying I'm not going to do it. But half of the voters say, don't.

AVLON: Yeah. I mean, that poll is striking for all the reasons you just said. I mean, look, you know, the mayor of New York's approval rating is a quarter of the number of people who think that, you know, Cuomo should resign. Look, I think what's clear and the standard that the Biden is setting out is there should be no resignation before investigation.

And that is a fair due process argument. But I don't think anyone should expect that Cuomo will resign given this poll, given everything else unless the investigation concludes and he can read the votes for the Senate and impeachment (inaudible) New York state legislature and then he may jump before he's push like Nix. But there is nothing to suggest that this guy who is tough and a political animal will resign. It's just not in his DNA.

[23:05:05]

LEMON: I got to ask you, Ron, I mean, folks are asking, what about the Northam effect? You know, what I mean? BROWNSTEIN: And the Trump effect. I mean, you know, look, I mean, you

can imagine in a world before Donald Trump that Andrew Cuomo faced irresistible pressure to resign already. But I think that poll reflects a kind of view among at least some Democrats that if Republicans are not going to hold their elected officials to standards, why preamp early take your own pieces off the board. I think that does gives him more leeway than he would have had a few years ago.

But it's not infinitely (inaudible). As John says, if there is an investigation that you know, provides important corroboration of this accusations. I mean, it's not an infinite grant. And he will face growing pressure. But Northam showed that you know, in this world, I think in the post Trump world, that if you try to tough it out, you at least have more of a chance than you would have earlier.

Whether that is good or bad for the country, I'm not really sure. But I do think there are a lot of Democrats who wonder about the double standards with you know, so many Republican elected officials who have faced charges and no real (inaudible) from their party.

LEMON: Quick, John, if you will please.

AVLON: Also I think the lesson some Democrats took from the forcing out of Al Franken before an investigation. I think that may be a (inaudible) in part as well.

LEMON: All very fair assessments here. Thank you very much. I appreciate it gentlemen.

I want to bring in now Dr. Jonathan Reiner. Dr. Jonathan Reiner is the director of the Cardiac Catheterization Program at George Washington University Hospital. Good to see you for our nightly house call. Thank you, doctor.

So the CDC is warning that we are just weeks away from the U.K. variant becoming the dominant strand here in the U.S. There is a 64 percent higher chance of dying from this variant but less than 22 percent of Americans have had at least one vaccine dose. Are we losing this critical race against time right now?

JONATHAN REINER, CNN MEDICAL ANALYST (on camera): No. I don't think we're using it. I think, first of all, I think we're leading the world in vaccinations. We're finally doing really well. Week after week, more vaccines are getting into arms. But I do think we're racing the variants. And if we ever needed incentives to double down on things that we know work, like masks, social distancing, staying out of crowds, we should do that now.

And if we need incentive to get vaccines into arms, here it is. All three of the vaccines that are approved in the United States are very effective against the U.K. B117 variant. Very effective. So, if you get vaccinated, you'll be protected from the coronavirus. So let's get, all get vaccinated.

About 27 percent of adults have had at least one shot. About 75 percent of people over the age of 75, about 65 percent of people over the age of 65. So we're doing a pretty good job at getting vaccines into the most vulnerable. Now we have to get shots into the people who are spreading the virus. And that's the young people. And we're starting to see states do that now.

LEMON: Doctor, in 15 states, cases reported over the past seven days are up at least 10 percent from a week ago. And we're seeing new hot spots in Minnesota and Michigan where cases are more than 40 percent higher than last week. So how do you explain this rise? Do you think it is restrictions? These boosting of restrictions? Could it be the new variants? Is it a combination? What's going on here?

REINER: Yes. I think it is a combination. Is ay overall in the United States, you know, compared to last week. We're still doing OK. Cases are down about 5 percent. Hospitalizations are down about 11 percent.

And deaths are down a whopping 28 percent. But you're right. In about 15 states, we have seen a bump up. And I think there's a little bit of -- there's a lot of pandemic fatigue. People are out and about more. People are traveling now. And we have more transmissible variants.

Again, more reason to keep mask mandates, keep wearing your masks and get vaccinate. So, we're at a little bit of a tipping point. We get a bit more vaccine into arms, I think, we can keep another surge at bay. If we start to get careless or we, you know, lose momentum in vaccination, yes, we could see another surge. I don't think it is inevitable.

LEMON (on camera): Yes. So, we talked about you know, the -- especially Republican men, right? Not wanting to get the vaccine. The former president is finally encouraging Americans to get vaccinated. This is what he said on Fox News. Here it is.

[23:15:00]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: I would recommend it and I would recommend it to a lot of people that don't want to get it, and a lot of those people voted for me, frankly. But you know, again we have our freedoms and we have to live by that and I agree with that also. But it is a great vaccine. It is a safe vaccine. And it is something that works.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON (on camera): Is it, that we have our freedoms thing, anyways, I don't know why he has to throw that in there. We know that. So, we've seen GOP lawmakers and pundits push the lies about the vaccine. Do you think Trump's recommendations can still make a difference at this point?

REINER: I hope so. And I'm glad to hear the former president at least make this sort of tepid response. But right, there is always a little bit of a step backwards. So, he tells his supporters, yes, that he recommends the vaccine but you're free not to do it. Look. This is three months after that we started vaccinating people, the former president finally makes a statement about this. Three months.

LEMON: Three months after he got the vaccine, before he left the White House quietly, in private, right.

REINER: that's right. And remember, the CDC recommended all Americans to wear mask on April 3rd. It would be three months before the former president would allow himself to be photograph wearing a mask. So, we've seen this before. And then only reluctantly. So, you know, I was glad to hear him say that, you know, if he wants to do something really big, maybe he should start holding vaccination rallies around the United States. He can draw a crowd, but the price of admission is a shot.

LEMON: And a mask.

REINER: Go around the country. Go around the country and getting people to get vaccinated.

LEMON: Yes. Thank you, doctor. I appreciate it. I'll see you soon.

REINER: Thank you. Thanks, Don.

LEMON (on camera): News on just how far election interference went in 2020 as Republican are gearing up to suppress your vote in states all across the country. Democracy under fire from within and without.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LT. GOV. GEOFF DUNCAN, (R-GA): I think we have a leadership issue. And the quicker we stop looking at this mirage that was created around misinformation, and election fraud, and conspiracy theories, the quicker we are going to get a game plan together to start building a GOP 2.0.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: So, on this show we have been focusing on the threat to your vote and what it means for our democracy. And today we have got two stories that show it is threatened by our enemies abroad and some of our leaders at right here at home.

First overseas threat. A newly declassified Intel report finding Russia meddled in the 2020 election to try and hurt Biden's chances at winning. That Vladimir Putin approved operations aimed at quote, denigrating President Biden's candidacy and the Democratic Party, supporting former President Trump, undermining public confidence in the electoral process and exacerbating socio-political divisions in the U.S. The report says there is no evidence any foreign actor attempted to alter ballots or results.

So joining me now to discuss CNN's national security analyst and former director of National Intelligence and that is James Clapper. Director, so good to have you on. Thank you so much. This report is the most comprehensive look that we have gotten into interference in the 2020 election and it makes clear that the biggest threat our election faced was from Russia. Not China, as some in the Trump administration had claimed. And this threat came right from Putin.

JAMES CLAPPER, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST, FORMER DIRECTOR OF NATIONAL INTELLIGENCE (on camera): Well, exactly, Don. And whatever else you say about the Russians, they're consistent. And in some respects, reading this report, the unclassified version reminds -- is very reminiscent of the report that we issued in the early 2017 which basically recounted the same behavior.

And just as in 2016, we detected no evidence of interference with voter tallies that appear or any of the mechanisms connected with its voting registration, tabulating votes or reporting them, and we had a similar finding in the election of 2016 which we reported out in 2017. So lots of consistency here. And of course the other thing I note, I think it is very unlikely that this report would have come out if President Trump were still in office.

LEMON: The Biden administration is expected to announce sanctions soon. But how different is the posturing the Biden administration is taking in response to this compared to the Trump administration where they handle Russian aggression?

CLAPPER: Well, that's an interesting question. Because institutionally, the administration, the last administration was in some cases, pretty stiff with the Russians. That was not the case with the president himself who at no time during his four years in office ever dined out Putin personally, or the Russians institutionally.

So it is a little different, certainly in tone. Perhaps not much difference in substance in terms of what to do about -- what actually what to do about the Russians by way of punishing them.

LEMON: So Director, one of Russia's key goals was to sow doubt in the democratic process and they could not have asked for a better help than the former president and Republicans in Congress. The whole world saw our Capitol building ransacked over the big lie that they're still keeping up. How do we fight threats to our democracy, still coming from within our own House?

CLAPPER: Well, I think, Don, you put your finger on the key issue here. Which is the assault on our democracy, both from external sources, as well as internal sources.

[23:25:05]

And that is a very serious problem. And a you know, a demonstration of that, of course, are the 250 plus bills that have been composed in Republican dominated legislatures across the country in some 43 states, which for me at least is an internal assault on our democracy that is to restrict or suppress the right to vote, as well as the foreign assaults on our system.

And of course, it wasn't just the Russians involved. At least the Iranians were also involved in 2020. Although there's no mention of how successful or effective the Iranians were. But it was once again the Russians. And this is a general trend around the world. You know, democracy is under assault in general and of course the irony is here the Bastian of democracy in the United States where you wouldn't expect that to happen.

LEMON: Director Clapper, always a pleasure, thank you so much.

CLAPPER: Thank you and congratulations on the book.

LEMON: Thank you. I really appreciate that. That means the world as you know, coming from you, Director. Thank you. I have so much respect for you. You're one of my favorite guests in this show. So, thank you so much. I really appreciate it.

CLAPPER: Thanks, Don.

LEMON: Thank you.

And now the threat from our leaders here at home. Republicans across the country trying to roll back voting rights. More than 250 bills in 43 states would make it tougher to vote. Georgia which flipped for Biden and sent two Democrats to the Senate is ground zero for these efforts.

And joining me now, another one of my favorite guests is LaTosha Brown, the co-founder of Black Voters Matter. And I appreciate your passion, and of course the all of the hard work that you do on behalf of every citizen in this country. Every voting citizen. Because you believe that everyone should have access. As many people as possible to the voting and the electoral process in this country. So, LaTosha, thank you for joining me.

The Georgia State Senate passed a sweeping election bill that would repeal no excuse absentee voting, limit mobile voting sites, cut back on early voting. What is going on there in Georgia?

LATOSHA BROWN, CO-FOUNDER OF BLACK VOTERS MATTER: What is going on is a punitive effort, led by the GOP in the state to turn back the hands of time. That fundamentally what wound up happening, what we know in this last election cycle, that we had historic turnout numbers? We had black voters coming out in record numbers which actually made a difference. But they lost control. They have control of all the statehouse, the state Senate, and the Governor's office.

And so for them to lose as badly as they did, to lose in a presidential election and then to lose those two Senate seats. That the only way they believe that they can recapture power and control in the state is quite frankly to cheat and to disenfranchise, particularly targeted at black voters. But what they are actually -- although it is rooted in racism, what they're offering is actually it fundamentally weakens democracy.

And so this is what we're seeing. We are seeing it all across the country. And while it is happening in Georgia, it actually has implications all of the country, it will set a precedent that we extremely dangerous in undermining democracy in this nation. LEMON: Georgia, LaTosha, Georgia is one of 23 states where Republicans

controlled as you said, you know, all of the branches and all the levers. But they lost two Senate seats and they lost the presidency. So, let's talk about your group now and what you're doing to try to preserve this rights. Calling on Coke, Delta, Home depot, UPS. Some of the other huge Georgia based companies to be more active in preventing these bills from passing. What would you like to see them do?

BROWN: You know, we always say, we want to hold them to their word. Last summer where we had the George Floyd uprising, all the companies came out and this fortune 500 companies came out and said that they stood for racial equity.

As a matter of fact, let me read to you what actually came out in the Georgia Chamber of Commerce which all of these companies, Coca-Cola, Aflac, Home Depot, all of them are members. That we recognized that much needs to be done to remove the barriers that prevent people from realizing their potential, especially black Americans.

And we welcome the opportunity to partner. But the bottom-line is they're making a statement. They made a statement that they recognized that they were attacked. That they recognized that there were challenges and equity challenges in the state of Georgia and all of this nation that were rooted in race.

So what I would see, and I do think that all my partners, what we're saying right now is make that (inaudible), that it just can't be, we are talking about racial equity. It just can't just be a matter of you make a nice statement because we're in the heat of the moment, but you have to put action behind your words.

[23:30:00]

What we believe is that voting is not a partisan issue. You can vote for whatever party you want to vote for. But having access to the ballot is a democracy issue. And democracy is good for businesses, businesses and corporations like UPS that we've not heard from, like Aflac that we've not heard from.

Coca-Cola and Home Depot made a statement that they back -- they backtracked yesterday, concerned about (INAUDIBLE), really showing some leadership behind that racial equity statement and really being able to stand on an issue that's clearly rooted in racism and anti- democracy.

LEMON: Hmm. As I said, I love your truth and I love your passion. And listen. You're right. You can't just do lip service. You can't just put out a statement. You have to do the work. You got to put -- and in many instances, putting your money where your statements are, right?

Thank you. Thank you, LaTosha. I'll see you soon. Keep up the great work. We love having you here. Thank you.

A D.C. judge reversing a decision from a federal court over a man charged in the Capitol riot. That man is accused of attacking Officer Michael Fanone. And now, he is back in jail. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[23:35:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON (on camera): One of the men charged with taking part in the attack against Officer Michael Fanone during the Capitol riot is now back in jail. An alleged member of the extremist group, the Three Percenters, appearing in court after his own teenage daughter testified about threats he allegedly made. She is claiming that he told her not to turn him in and that -- quote -- "traitors get shot."

CNN's Jessica Schneider has the latest.

(BEGIN VIDEO TAPE)

JESSICA SCHNEIDER, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The man accused of viciously assaulting D.C. Police Officer Michael Fanone is back in jail after a D.C. judge reversed the decision of a New York federal judge to let Thomas Sibick go free.

Chief Judge Beryl Howell ruling Sibick belonged behind bars, saying his actions were egregious and that he showed no remorse. Prosecutors say Sibick was seen on police body camera footage attacking Officer Fanone, who told CNN he had to fight for his life.

MICHAEL FANONE, D.C. METROPOLITAN POLICE DEPARTMENT: They were screaming out, you know, kill him with his own gun. I just remember yelling out that I have kids. And it seemed to work. Some people in the crowd started to encircle me and try to offer me some level of protection.

SCHNEIDER (voice-over): Sibick is also accused of stealing Officer Fanone's police badge and radio, something investigators say Sibick lied to them about. Court documents say he first claimed he left the badge in D.C., then he said he threw it in a dumpster, and finally admitted to burying the badge in his backyard.

FANONE: Like guys were stripping me of my gear. These rioters were pulling my badge off my chest. They ripped my radio.

SCHNEIDER (voice-over): Judge Howell slammed Sibick's alleged actions, saying stealing the lifeline of the radio to call for safety, it is just not acceptable. It is lawless behavior.

Also still behind bars after a court appearance today, Guy Reffitt. Prosecutors say Reffitt is a member of the Texas Three Percenters group, an extremist paramilitary group, and that he drove to Washington with guns in his car days before January 6th, and took part in the Capitol attack clad in body armor and carrying plastic cuff restraints.

His children testified against him in court. His 16-year-old daughter detailed the comments she says her father made when he came home to Texas after allegedly storming the Capitol. She says Reffitt told her he would put a bullet through her cellphone if she posted about him on social media. And if she or her brother turned him in, they would be traitors and traitors get shot, his daughter testified.

But his 18-year-old son Jackson told CNN's Chris Cuomo, he talked to police, anyway.

JACKSON REFFITT, SON OF GUY REFFITT: It just felt like the right thing regardless of my emotions and how much I love my family and my dad. I didn't think he would actually do anything bad, but him saying anything even remotely threatening to me and my sister and my family and government officials, it was just too much.

SCHNEIDER (on camera): Prosecutors are now digging into exactly who Guy Reffitt is and if he was making any other violent plans. We've learned that prosecutors have now seized 28 electronic devices from his home. They're looking into that. And they're also considering any other charges, including conspiracy. Don?

(END VIDEO TAPE)

LEMON (on camera): Thank you very much. I appreciate that.

TV's "The Bachelor" taking on a big conversation about race after bachelor Matt James learned about the controversial past of Rachael Kirkconnell.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[23:40:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON (on camera): So there's lots of drama in the season finale of "The Bachelor." Matt James handed out his final rose to Rachael Kirkconnell, who really made headlines after a photo surfaced of her at an antebellum plantation-themed fraternity formal -- this was back in 2018.

But during the "After the Rose" ceremony hosted by Emmanuel Acho, James said that he had broken up with Kirkconnell because of the controversial photos. Kirkconnell then apologized.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RACHAEL KIRKCONNELL, WINNER OF "THE BACHELOR": I see someone who was living in this ignorance without even, like, thinking about who it would be hurting. I think that people need to realize that just saying, like, this is normal, where I came from or this is common where I came from, that doesn't make it right and that doesn't make it OK.

MATT JAMES, THE BACHELOR: When I questioned our relationship, it was in the context of you not fully understanding my blackness and what it means to be a Black man in America.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON (on camera): Let's discuss now. Emmanuel Acho is here. He's the author of "Uncomfortable Conversations with a Black Man." He is also a Fox sports analyst, co-hosting a live two-hour weekday show on FS1.

[23:45:00]

LEMON: Listen, this is more about --

EMMANUEL ACHO, AUTHOR, FOX SPORTS ANALYST, HOST OF "THE BACHELOR": Good evening.

LEMON: Thank you, sir. I really appreciate you joining us. I tell you, I've never been interested in "The Bachelor" until this controversy because it has a lot to do with what's happening in the culture right now, so it is very important --

ACHO: Yeah.

LEMON: -- to watch. That was painful, I have to admit, Emmanuel, to watch. But I feel like we finally heard something -- a really authentic conversation about race on "The Bachelor." And that Rachael, to me, you tell me how you feel, seemed sincere, open to learning. What did you think about her apology and the whole discussion?

ACHO: I thought the discussion was incredibly fruitful. I think we have to do a better job of dissecting in our country the difference between being overtly and maliciously racist and being racially insensitive or racially ignorant.

What I told Rachael Kirkconnell was that her actions were racially insensitive, they were racially ignorant, but that doesn't inherently make someone a racist. What are your intentions? Were your intentions malicious or were you ignorant?

The greater issue, Don, in America is why are people still so ignorant? I do think that "The Bachelor" franchise, that specific incident, was a microcosm of a larger macro issue in society where we see ignorance at play and ignorance offends a group of people. Now, we have to do a better job understanding because ignorance may be an explanation, but ignorance is no longer an excuse.

LEMON: Right. And I've been saying since I've been promoting my book, you have -- you got to do the work. You can't just say we should be having these conversations. You've got to do the work in order to even put a dent in this issue.

Chris Harrison was the host of the show. He was removed after his comments defending Rachael. And you've spoken with him and you said that. And I quote here. People need to give him the opportunity, the grace and the time to do --

ACHO: Yeah.

LEMON: -- as I just mentioned, to do the work. Talk to me about that, Emmanuel.

ACHO: We have to give people room for redemption.

LEMON: Mm-hmm.

ACHO: See, yes, we live in a society that now everybody is using the volatile terms like cancel culture. But can we decipher the difference between being cancelled and being held accountable?

Right, Rachael Kirkconnell, she took accountability for her actions. Chris Harrison in stepping down, he took accountability for his actions. For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction. That's not just the law of physics but that's actually a law of society and common sense.

So let's all remember that just because one takes accountability, does not mean that they have been cancelled. Chris and I have had many conversations, fruitful dialogue where I've tried to help, encouraged him. He encouraged me in preparing for the episode, and I encouraged him and try to enlighten his mindset to breed empathy and bring forth better understanding.

So, we just all have to do a better job of reconciling and giving people room for redemption.

LEMON: Do you - do you think Chris has taken accountability because there were -- listen, as I listened and I watched Rachael's apology, extremely sincere. And I said -- what I said about that, it seems like she's willing to do the work and she's on the right path. But do you think that same thing about Chris? His apology did not ring as true and as sincere as Rachael's?

ACHO: Yeah. The difference was Rachael had a dialogue with me that was a little more open-ended. It was a little more long form. She and I sat on the couch in person, mind you, for 14 minutes, where I was able to respond to her thoughts and her questions.

Chris had a conversation via Zoom that was -- we only saw five minutes of it. Again, when you lose that interpersonal effect, Don, you can have really genuine, authentic conversations about volatile matters and expect to see the peak of that conversation over a Zoom.

That's very risky. That's why all my uncomfortable conversations with a Black man, they all occur in person, because I'm trying to bring everybody in the best position to have understanding and the best position to be received so that the world can continue to learn how to give grace.

LEMON: This was supposed to be, you know, a pivotal season for "The Bachelor" after 25 seasons. They finally had a cast. You know, they cast their first Black bachelor. I mean, it seems like they didn't understand that it is about more than just putting a Black person on the show. How did this all go so wrong?

ACHO: Well, wrong is depending on who defines it, right? So, I think that "The Bachelor" was accurate but they were incomplete, meaning this. You have your first Black bachelor, check, but the problem is who is telling the stories? Do you have Black producers, Black executive producers? Do you have Black people in the casting room casting a different variety of Black people and black cultures and other persons of color? So, it is a matter of yes, they got the first Black bachelor, but that's not enough.

[23:50:00]

ACHO: You put a Band-Aid on something that might have needed reconstructive surgery, right? And I think that we have to look again, macro picture in our society, what is the difference between diversity and inclusion? And I think "The Bachelor" came face-to-face with the fact that yes, they did part, they were accurate, but they were still incomplete and work still needs to be done.

LEMON: Black people telling black stories. Even if there is a black face in front, it all still matters. Thank you very much. I appreciate you. And by the way, great job, all right? Keep it up. It's good to have you on. Thank you very much.

ACHO: Thank you.

LEMON: Listen, we do the same conversations that we're having here, Emmanuel and I, that's what in my new book. It is called "This is the Fire: What I Say to My Friends About Racism." It is out today, and I hope you will check it out.

Meantime, the governor of California, Gavin Newsom, is fighting back as he faces a major effort to recall him. He claims it is all political.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[23:55:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON (on camera): New tonight, California Governor Gavin Newsom in the fight of his political life. Newsom is pushing back against a well-funded effort to recall him, a process that could ultimately end his governorship. He says he is taking it seriously.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GOV. GAVIN NEWSOM (D-CA): We have the lowest threshold of the 19 states that allow a recall in the country and all you need is about a quarter of the people that voted for Donald Trump getting this recall petition to the voters this November.

So, I'm anticipating it goes on. We're taking it very seriously. This is the sixth -- sixth recall effort in just 25 months since I've been governor. This one appears because they got an extension from a judge to have the requisite signatures and absolutely, we're taking it seriously.

(END VIDEO CLIP) LEMON (on camera): So, Newsom is framing the recall as a republican- backed movement supported by anti-vaxxers, QAnon, conspiracy theorists, and anti-immigrant Trump supporters.

But recall organizers say their supporters account for a wide swath of Californians, and tomorrow is the deadline for them to submit nearly 1.5 million signatures to the state's county registers for verification.

Organizers say that they have over two million signatures. Once signatures are verified, a number of procedural steps will need to be taken to line up an election date, meaning there is still a ways to go for the governor.

Thank you for watching, everyone. Our coverage continues.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)