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Don Lemon Tonight

Georgia's GOP Governor Signs Law That Restricts Access to Voting; President Biden Slams Law Aimed at Restricting Voting Access, Calling Them Despicable and Un-American; Biden Makes No Apologies for Rolling Back Trump's Policies at the Border; Big Tech Companies were Grilled by Congress on Role of Misinformation in Deadly Capitol Riot; Georgia State Representative Released from Jail; Biden Calls for Gun Legislation. Aired 11p-12a ET

Aired March 25, 2021 - 23:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[23:00:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DON LEMON, CNN HOST: So here is our breaking news tonight. Georgia's Republican Governor, signing a sweeping new elections law that restricts access to voting. A Georgia state representative is arrested after knocking on Governor Brian Kemp store, trying to get into his office while he is signing the legislation. She is charged with obstruction.

Meanwhile, the president of the United States, Joe Biden, in his first formal news conference since taking office, slamming moves by GOP lawmakers to limit voting access, calling that despicable and un- American. Making it clear to the American people, his priorities are getting shots in arms, kids in schools, and checks in pockets. But big challenges ahead on infrastructure, voting rights, guns, and the border.

Let's discuss now. Our chief national affairs correspondent is, Jeff Zeleny, joins us live. Jeff, good evening to you. This voting rights battle is heated. President Biden is calling the push by Republican state legislatures, to restrict voting rights, and I quote here, sick and un-American. But, is it his number one priority given what we saw happen tonight in Georgia?

JEFF ZELENY, CNN SENIOR WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT: Don, it is not his number one priority, but he explained why during that news coverage earlier today. He did say that presidents must select the timing of issues for a reason. He did talk, he was certainly more animated about voting rights than anything else he talked about. He did call it un- American, like you said, he also called it pernicious. And he used the example of the fact that it would be criminal behavior to give an older voter a glass of water as she waited in line to cast a ballot.

So, he said it was his you know, plan to really explain these laws that were happening in Georgia, and in many states across the country. He said, he does not believe that rank and file Republicans actually support them. Republican officials and elected officials, he said do. But given all that, Don, he still said it is not his top priority. Now there is a bill in the House of Representatives that would, you

know, federalize election laws, and that is, essentially, dead on arrival, or at least you know, holding in the Senate. So that is where the rubber is going to meet the road for him on this. So certainly, an issue, but it is not the top priority, and he explained why.

LEMON: Well, you know, he talked about infrastructure, right? That's going to be his next push. He's pushing his $3 trillion infrastructure plan, instead of gun legislation, or voting rights. This is how he explain that, and what you are talking about. Here it is.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Successful presidents, better than me, have been successful in a large part because they know how to time what they are doing. How to order it. To decide on priorities on what needs to be done.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: Presidents only have a certain amount of political capital. Biden is being practical, you know, he saw how President Obama put everything into guns after Sandy Hook, gotten nowhere. Do you think that is weighing on him?

ZELENY: I think without question, Don. And it wasn't only President Obama, it was then Vice President, Joe Biden, who really was the point person of that gun legislation in the wake of the Newtown massacre. I remember being on, you know, in the halls of the Senate, watching the vice president trying to lobby for this bill, meeting with family members, and that crime, it is hard to imagine a more horrific crime and that did not -- you know, was not enough to get Senators to come together on a universal background check.

So, it is one thing that the White House, certainly, is committed to it but what he's saying is look, I'm not going to allow it to disrupt my program. He is still you know, laser-focused on the economy. That is what the infrastructure, both physical infrastructures also technological infrastructure is all about. So, that bill is next up.

[23:05:05]

But he says, the White House can do many things at once. So, he is looking at executive actions, something he can do with the stroke of a pen on guns, as well as you know, pushing Congress. But Don, it is a very much an open question whether anything will change you know, the gun debate in America. So far, for decades, it really hasn't.

LEMON: Our man in Washington tonight, Jeff Zeleny. Jeff, thank you very much, I appreciate that.

A Georgia state representative arrested and removed from the state Capitol tonight. She was trying to get into the Governor's office where he was signing an election overhaul bill that critics say, will make it much harder to vote. And the CNN analysis shows, disproportionately harms black voters. CNN has learned that Senator Reverend, Rafael Warnock is there with her at the Fulton County jail.

CNN's Dianne Gallagher is in Atlanta. Diane, good evening to you, thanks for joining. So, this is all caught on tape. Tell us what happened? Take us inside?

DIANNE GALLAGHER, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes. It is probably better for you to see what happened, Don. But I can tell you just real quick, a Representative Park Cannon, she is an Atlanta Democrat, was obviously in session today because of the votes. And as the Governor was signing this bill into law in his ceremonial office, you saw on that live stream, he paused for a little, and it went out. We did hear some banging, and it appears that is what is happening. Take a look at this video.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNKNOWN: Why are coming up close to her like that? Why are you coming up close?

UNKNOWN: Don't touch me now.

UNKNOWN: Why does she have to stand back?

UNKNOWN: Why is the Governor trying to sign something in private? Why is he keeping a representative --

UNKNOWN: Why does she have to step back?

UNKNOWN: You have to step back though.

UNKNOWN: The Governor is signing a bill that affects all Georgians, why is he doing it in private? And why is trying to keep elected officials, who are representing us out of the process?

UNKNOWN: You said you would give her one more time, like you are going to do something. Are you serious? No. You are not. She is not under arrest. For what? Under arrest for what? For trying to see --

GALLAGHER (voice over): You know, Don, you can probably see there what's going on. It has become very chaotic. They do basically drag her out, she is handcuffed, and put in a patrol car and take her to jail. She is facing two felony charges tonight. Felony obstruction, and also, interrupting a general session, a general assembly.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GALLAGHER: According to these arrest affidavits, they also claim that Representative Cannon stomped on the foot of one of those officers there, but look, Don, obviously this is what anybody thought was going to happened there and you can hear it in the voices of those protesters who are with her. She is the only person who was arrested, and again, has since been charged with two felonies for, effectively, knocking on the Governors door.

LEMON: Two felonies. I mean, Diane, it's a really bad look. When you look at it, it's a really bad look. And this is dramatic culmination here, because the bill has been fought over for weeks now, right?

GALLAGHER: Yes. Weeks, Don, really months. But is sort of culminated today in about a five-hour span where the House, and then the Senate, and then the Governor, signed it. Look, this is something that people here in Georgia, and really across the country and paying attention to and fighting.

LEMON: Dianne Gallagher, I appreciate your reporting, thank you so much, Dianne.

I'm going to bring in now Astead Herndon, and also, he's our political analyst, national political reporter for The New York Times, also LaTosha Brown joins us as well. Co-founder of black voters matter. Good evening to both of you. I appreciate you joining us.

I got to start with your reactions to this. Astead, let's start with you. Police are dragging a black woman, a lawmaker, out of the Capitol. The Governor is on the other side of the door, signing this bill into law. And I just want everyone to look at the picture here that he tweeted. Pretty much impossible not to notice that it is a room full of men, believed to be all white men here. Then, when you put them side by side, that kind of says it all, no?

ASTEAD HERNDON, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Yes, I mean, this is an image, and a kind of struggle, that speaks to a much larger arc in American history. The kind of rise of black political power and that being met with a backlash that has been consistent throughout kind of the story of American democracy and continues to be true.

[23:10:05]

Now, we know, kind of as a fact, that the impact of these voting efforts would disproportionately hurt black and brown voters in Georgia. We know as a fact that those are the voters who helped propel Joe Biden's victory in December, how (inaudible) to Democratic Senators to win in Georgia. And we know that Republicans are looking how to rest that fact.

Now they could try to appeal to these constituencies, they could try to get them on their sides, to believe in conservative causes, but what we have seen across the country, as Republicans who were much more willing to rule by minority, to rule by limiting voting access, rather than appeal to the majority consensus.

And I think that, in Georgia, it's just a microcosm of what is going to be a larger American story on this front, where there is will kind of democracy and the Republican Party be able to rise to the stress test. And at this point, we are seeing one that has doubled down on Trump's big lie of the election, but is also doubled down on the willingness to see a kind minutia to voters as more important than the growing multicultural majority.

LEMON: LaTosha, what is your reaction?

LATOSHA BROWN, CO-FOUNDER OF BLACK VOTERS MATTER: You know, we have got to call it what it is. Quite frankly, this is racist and anti- Democratic. You can fix it up however you want to fix it up, but what we are looking at, we are looking at Jim Crow making an emergence again. We are looking at, we saw the image of a Governor of the state of Georgia, who actually got in power by suppressing the vote in the state of Georgia.

And as a reaction, black voters came out in historic numbers. And so, because of our participation, now there is this puritan measures that will literally create barriers to the vote. And so what we saw, we saw this image of him, on the side, surrounded by white men. And, literally, we saw the state troopers taking a duly elected official, who happens to be a black woman, out in handcuffs and take her out to jail.

I mean, its right before us, what we are seeing and what we are witnessing right now. I think -- this is beyond just a stress test around what we are seeing for the loss right now, we are being -- we have a question that we got to answer. Will America become a democracy? And at the end of the day, regardless of what political parties is in office, my rights, as a citizen, should be protected.

Because I vote, I should not be punished. And because other organizations, just like they decriminalized, handing out water and snacks to people, older people that we saw online, some of those people were in line for two, three, four hours, right. So, it is criminal what is happening.

LEMON: Or longer! Or Longer LaTosha. Let me ask you this. I'm glad you bring that up. Because if you look at the optics of this, you're right. And we put it upside by side, moments ago. It is really bad optics for Republicans. You have, you know, the picture of this, tweeting it out, being proud about it, you know, the press conference. Or at least tweeting the picture out and then not allowing a black woman in. There are charges of voter suppression.

I mean, it is the picture, the quintessential picture of what is going on right now. Here's what I'm wondering. If you look at the optics of this. And if Democrats are going to strategize, right? Can you imagine putting older people in line, in sort of the vein of Rosa Parks? People trying to give them food and water after they are in line for a long time, and then being arrested?

As those pictures go out to America, the next time that people are in line voting, what happens? What does America do? What happens to the Republican Party? Do they really want to be the folks behind the pictures of people being arrested for handing a little old lady a glass of water as she is waiting in line to cast her vote? Do they really want to be that? Is that who they want to be?

BROWN: You know, I think that (inaudible), there is the moral center, there is no flaw that what we are looking at, we are looking at voters in the state of Georgia, being punished, free using, and exercising, their civil rights. And I think that it is really important for us to know, that this is a question that goes far beyond Georgia. That Georgia is just one state, of many states that we are seeing the same kind of legislation.

LEMON: 43.

BROWN: We are seeing voting rights legislation from Congress. The Senate is going to have to end the filibuster. There is no way around it. We are going to have to move forward, we are going to pass HR1, HR4. We are going to have to sprint them voting rights in this country, because what we are more than just like a tip of the iceberg.

But the one thing that gives me hope is that people are rising up. If you saw today the protest that I participated in, those a multiracial -- multigenerational coalition of people saying that we believe in democracy and we are going to fight for our democracy and we are going to stand for.

LEMON: Astead, I want to play this, this is from the president today, what he said about some of these bills being put forward all across the country, earlier the one that look -- the ones that LaTosha just referred to, here it is.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BIDEN: What I am worried about is how un-American this whole initiative is. It's sick. It's sick. I'm convinced that we will be able to stop this because it is the most pernicious thing, this makes Jim Crow look like Jim eagle. I mean, it's gigantic what they are trying to do. And it cannot be sustained. I'll do everything in my power, along with my friends, and their House in the Senate to keep that from becoming the law.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[23:15:29]

LEMON: I'm wondering if these pictures coming out of Georgia tonight, if this changes his priorities and at least gives him, you know, some sort of pause, in reassessing with the priority is here. Because he is insisting, today, that he's next priority is going to be infrastructure. Astead, but access to the ballot is being restricted, right now, how can he win it?

HERNDON: Yes, there's two minds I'm up here. There's the reporting mind which says that this is -- that they are going to stay the course. This is a Democratic Party a White House that has kind of plan out those priorities that seize infrastructures a place that they can get the most investment. Next, that they could have the best chance of passing, particularly through reconciliation.

And they want to see a both, a bigger, a more robust investment in the economy. They think that's where they can make that happen. I don't think that's going to change. There is the analysis half that says, what is the Democratic Party? Have they come to a kind of realization of the core threat that these poses? A kind of for their majorities going forward. This does not just start with Joe Biden, this goes back to the Barack Obama era of the Democratic Party, and is not really understood, or really come to grips, with the kind of long-term gain.

Republicans are playing on this front. And how fast that they are making real inroads to the right to vote, particularly with core democratic constituencies. And so, it's kind of a basic question for Democrats here. Do you recognize the threat that this poses to your majorities, and will you then decide that that has to overcome the filibuster? Overcome the kind of legislative questions that have blocked them for making inroads on this front?

Or will they prioritize other things, and kind of seed this ground to Republicans? Republicans are letting Democrats kind of do their big COVID investment, do the big infrastructure plans. They are focused and kind of macro sense on that large-scale power play of democracy, (inaudible) the question that the Democrats are going to wake up to that threat.

LEMON: Right on. LaTosha agrees, and I agree with you as well. One side is playing three-dimensional chess, the other side is playing checkers, it's time, Democrats, you better wake up. Thank you very much. I appreciate both of you.

President Biden, and his first press conference today, showing empathy for migrant children trying to cross the border alone, pushing back against a question about whether he rolled back the previous administration's policies too soon.

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[23:20:00]

LEMON: President Joe Biden, fielding multiple questions on immigration today. Here is how he spoke about it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BIDEN: What a desperate act to have to take. Circumstances must be horrible. The idea that I'm going to say, which I would never do, as an unaccompanied child ends up at the border, we are just going to let them starve to death and stay in the other side. No previous administration did that either, except Trump. I'm not going to do it. I'm not going to do it. Rolling back the policies of separating children from their mothers? I will make no apology for that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: Well, that's a far cry from what we used to hear.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: When Mexico sends its people, they are not sending their best. They are bringing drugs. They are bringing crime. They are rapists.

These aren't people, these are animals.

We have some bad hombres here, and we are going to get them out.

These are rough, rough people, in many cases.

Yes, sir, we have barb wire going up. Because, you know what, we are not letting these people invade our country.

In those caravans, you have stone cold killers.

And look at some of these asylum people, they are gang members.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: Joining us, CNN political commentator, Ana Navarro, and Alice Stewart. Good evening to both of you. Ana, talk about two different approaches here, what was it like for you to listen to this today?

ANA NAVARRO, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: It was, I mean, I almost couldn't get over just how different it was, right. And it wasn't just because it was about immigration, and the level of humanity, and decency, and empathy that Joe Biden showed. It was because it was just so different, in every aspect. Tone, cordiality towards the press, respect, patience. It was presidential.

As opposed to the press conferences that we have seen for the past four years, which have been a circus act. It's been a barking show. It's been insane. It's been incoherent. Full of lies, full of insults, full of insults towards the press. You know one of the things that struck me, Don, practically every reporter that stood up to ask a question, ask multiple questions in one.

And Joe Biden tried to answer all of those questions in one and did so patiently. But on immigration, there could not have been a more stark difference in the way Biden approached it, than in the way Trump has approached it. And let me just say this, you know, so many on the right want to make it seem like Joe Biden is not in charge. Like Joe Biden doesn't know what's happening.

Joe Biden came out prepared. He knew the facts, he knew the statistics, he knew what was happening on immigration, on one side of the border, and at the other side of the border. He was a man in authority and in control, and at the same, time doing it all with empathy.

LEMON: Well, I think you are correct, the whole idea about Joe Biden. Listen, it's not the razzle-dazzle of the sort of con, snake oil salesman of the former president, and it's not the cool customer of Barack Obama.

[23:25:11]

It was you know, Uncle Joe, right. This guy who wants to work for the American people, who knew the facts, but wasn't out there to impress people. I just want to do the work. And so, let's talk some policy here, OK, Alice? Because the former President Trump was on Fox tonight. This is what he said about officials charging insurrectionists. Watch this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: They go after people that, I guess, you could call them lean towards the right. And they wave American flags, in many cases, they're waving the American flag, and they love our country. It was zero threat, right from the start, there was zero threat.

Look, they went in, they shouldn't have done it, some of them went in and they were hugging, and kissing the police and the guards. You know, that they have great relationships. A lot of the people were waved in and then they walked in, and they walked out.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: OK, so I said policy, I'm not sure how this is policy, but it is something. I mean, Alice, five people are dead. Come on. Kissing and hugging?

ALICE STEWART, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yes, these people are not pro Americans, these people are insurrectionists that storm the Capitol, and they are not representatives, certainly of the Republican Party, and people who support our country. And to lump all Republicans in the same group as the people that storm the Capitol? I think, is completely wrong, and ill founded.

But I do want to say, with regards to Uncle Joe, and President Biden's approach to immigration. Look, I think we can all look at the immigration problem and see that there needs to be changes. There needs to be reforms. And you look at these children coming across the border that need to find safety and need a place to stay. They need compassion. And I think it is important to do so.

But when you have the current president campaigning on encouraging people to come into this country, transitioning into the White House as being the welcome mat for migrants to come into this country that need a place, and moving into the White House as a welcome mat for migrants to come, and watching the thousands of them coming into this country wearing this Biden t-shirts, saying, give us a place to stay. And to not be able to understand --

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: how are going to welcome that from migrants (inaudible). You understand, the numbers were increasing under the former president? At if not hire people coming in, or to the same level, as this president? How is he going to welcomed that?

STEWART: Look. In February of 2020, the numbers compared to February of 2021 have increased, 173 percent. 100,000 migrants, were apprehended at the border in February, compared to last year.

LEMON: Remember we have a pandemic.

STEWART: Don, I'm not disagreeing with you, the numbers are astronomical. But I think it's really difficult to hear this president say, I'm the nice guy, I welcome them, I embrace them, I'm going to give them a place to stay, but not to have a plan in place to have housing and accommodation, and food and shelter for these people is simply, unconscionable.

And for him to say to not be able to acknowledge the possibility that he may have rolled back the Trump policies a little prematurely, the remain-in-Mexico policies that said they need to stay in Mexico, unless they have been cleared, and vetted by our country to come here. I think, I understand, and agree with what he is trying to accomplish, there just should have been a better plan in place to be able to process them.

NAVARRO: Let me respond to that though. Listen, he got a late start on the transition, right. It was for over two months, Trump, and the Republicans, did not recognize that he was the President-Elect. And today, what I heard, was not just Uncle Joe. I heard Senator Joe Biden, chair of the foreign relations committee, who was in the Senate for 36 years, and understands policy, and who is chair of the judiciary committee.

I heard Vice President Joe Biden, who did the job that he just had Kamala Harris to do this week. And I heard President Joe Biden, who understands the weight of the responsibility that falls on his shoulders.

Listen, with this administration, what Joe Biden has done this week, is he has designated a special envoy for the northern triangle in Central America. He has tasked Kamala Harris to work with those governments, to find the root cause, and address the root causes, and work on diplomatic solutions on cooperation.

[23:30:01]

If you start walking from Honduras, you got to walk thousands of miles by the time you show up in the -- on the border with the United States. You got to go through a bunch of --

LEMON: Ana --

(CROSSTALK)

NAVARRO: -- done diplomatically --

LEMON: Yeah.

NAVARRO: -- and so, I -- you know, I think you got to give Joe Biden a lot of credit for --

LEMON: I got to --

NAVARRO: -- recognizing --

LEMON: I've got to go because there are other things that I need to -- I need to cover. We will -- we are going to continue this conversation. We'll continue the conversation. Thank you both. I appreciate it.

ALICE STEWART, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Thank you, Don.

LEMON: Big tech CEOs answering tough questions from lawmakers about social media's role in the insurrection. Well, actually, most of them completely dodged. Donie O'Sullivan was watching. He has got the real answers. That's next. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: A bit of breaking news to tell you about now.

[23:35:00]

LEMON: It is out of Georgia. The Georgia state rep, Park Cannon, is out of jail now. Her attorney, Gerald Griggs, is telling CNN that Cannon is facing two charges, felony obstruction and preventing or disrupting general assembly session. Both felonies, all right? In connection with her arrest at the state house.

Arrest affidavit states that Cannon was charged with disrupting general assembly session because she knowingly and intentionally did by knocking the governor's -- on the governor's door during a session signing a bill -- the session signing of a bill.

So we will continue to update you. She's out of -- out of jail now. And we'll continue to follow. It's going to be big news tomorrow morning. Make sure you tune in to "New Day" in the morning.

Now, I want to turn to the two -- to the CEOs, excuse me, of Facebook, Google, and Twitter, getting a grilling today from members of Congress at a hearing about misinformation, online extremism, in connection with the January 6th riot at the Capitol.

Head of Facebook rejecting any responsibility for the misinformation that fueled the riot and said -- pointing his finger directly at the former president Donald Trump and at the media.

So let's bring in now CNN business reporter Donie O'Sullivan, who you just heard there in the background, I'm sure. Donie --

(LAUGHTER)

DONIE O'SULLIVAN, CNN REPORTER: (INAUDIBLE).

LEMON: You got to clear your throat. We need to hear everything that you have to say very clearly, Donie. Thanks --

O'SULLIVAN: It's been a long day.

LEMON: Yeah.

O'SULLIVAN: I had to watch Zuckerberg all day.

LEMON: Listen. Thank you for joining. Today, Facebook -- speaking of Zuckerberg -- is blaming former President Trump and the media for the election disinformation that led to this insurrection. Listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MARK ZUCKERBERG, CEO, FACEBOOK: We did our part to secure the integrity of the election. And then on January 6th, President Trump gave a speech rejecting the results and calling on people to fight. I believe that the division we see today is primarily the result of a political and media environment that drives Americans apart. And we need to reckon with that if we're going to make progress.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: So, Donie, he actually said that they don't allow misinformation, Facebook ads as well. So, what is this? What is going on here? Seriously?

O'SULLIVAN: Yeah. He is just unable to take any ounce of responsibility. Don, a few weeks before the insurrection, Steve Bannon went on Facebook in a video and said that Dr. Anthony Fauci and FBI Director Christopher Wray should be beheaded. That wasn't enough for Facebook to suspend Bannon.

So much of the Stop the Steal organizing, the whole big lie about the election happened on Facebook. And he's talking there about Trump lying. I mean, all the posts that Trump posted about how the election was rigged, how it was stolen, what did Facebook do with them?

They didn't take them down. They didn't restrict them. They put these tiny pathetic little labels on them saying, oh, this information might be wrong. Joe Biden actually won the election.

So, it is incredible to hear Zuckerberg there just totally trying to skirt any form of responsibility whatsoever.

LEMON: According to a 2020 report from The Wall Street Journal, a 2016 presentation by Facebook research was found, and I quote here, "The high number of extremist groups was concerning, the presentation says. Worse was Facebook's realization that its algorithms were responsible for their growth. The 2016 presentation states that 64 percent of all extremist groups joins are due to our recommendation tools and that most of the activity came from the platform's 'Groups You Should Join' and 'Discover algorithms: Our recommendation systems grow the problem.'"

This is Facebook. I mean, they knew their platform was guiding people to extremist groups years ago. But as we know, extremism is still spreading through Facebook. What gives, Donie?

O'SULLIVAN: Yeah. This is precisely the problem, right? If you get pulled into a Facebook group, which is what Facebook is trying to get you to do, right, you are then swimming in a total alternative universe. You know, there were Stop the Steal groups, there were groups dedicated to Trump, there are groups dedicated to anti- vaccines, misinformation. The only thing you will see in there is anti-vaccine misinformation.

And Don, there is one piece of footage I want to show you. It is from outside the Capitol today. It is a stunt by an activist group called Some of Us. It was these cut-outs of Zuckerberg there as the QAnon shaman and other tech executives, depicting them as Capitol rioters. I know that's a pretty scary image to show you before bedtime of a bare- chested Zuckerberg.

But it does get to the wider point of that, you know, these executives are culpable. They do have responsibility. We've seen the rioters, but what brought them there? Sure, the lies from President Trump, but so much of the organizing, so much of the parallel universe that they are living in was created and enabled by these social media platforms.

LEMON: Culpable for the misinformation. Is that what you mean by culpable in that situation?

O'SULLIVAN: Yes.

LEMON: Thank you, Donie. I appreciate your time and your reporting.

So, the latest deadly mass shootings exposing the deepening partisan divide over gun safety.

[23:39:58]

LEMON: My next guest says that we already have a model for how to regulate it.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: Immediately after the deadly mass shooting at the Boulder supermarket, President Biden called on Congress to pass gun legislation, including banning assault-style weapons and expanding background checks.

The Boulder killings following the mass shooting in Atlanta by only a week. But gun legislation didn't seem to be a priority for the president at his news conference today, possibly because of stiff Republican opposition.

Joining me now is The New York Times' Nicholas Kristof. Nicholas, good to see you. Thanks for joining.

[23:45:00]

LEMON: So we got two more mass shootings. Americans are frustrated, furious that Congress cannot get anything done. Do you think we need a whole new approach to stop gun violence, a public health approach to guns? Explain what you mean by that, Nick.

NICHOLAS KRISTOF, COLUMNIST, "THE NEW YORK TIMES": Sure. So people in the gun community always say, look, you know, cars kill about as many people each year as guns do and we don't ban cars. No. But we work really hard to reduce the number of auto deaths.

And so since 1921, we've reduced auto deaths for 100 million miles driven by more than 95 percent. And, you know, there was no one thing that did that, Don. Rather, it was a million things. It was seatbelts and airbags and lit highways and padded dashboards. It was round about instead of left turns.

It was also limiting -- it was not only making cars safer, there was also limiting access who drives a car. So, it is crackdowns on people who have records of drunk driving. It was graduated licenses for teenage drivers so that they can't drive in the evening or can't have a car load of other kids with them, working harder to prevent elderly drivers who have problems to get them out from behind the wheel.

And, you know, I think that's the model that we need for guns. We're not going to ban guns in America. There are almost 400 million of them around the country. But we can both make them safer, and we can limit access to them.

LEMON: Mm-hmm. You're right. No texting laws and hands-free laws. You can't be using your cellphone. If you are, it has got to be on a speaker or an earphone so that you can pay attention to the road. You're absolutely right about that.

You grew up on a farm in Oregon. You attended NRA gun safety class. And now you write for The New York Times. So bridge the game. How should people who want a ban on assault weapons or tighter restrictions talk about this issue with folks who have grown up in a gun culture?

KRISTOF: Sure. Well, I'm actually right now on the family farm, Don, and you may hear the farm dogs barking in the background just to provide a little authenticity.

(LAUGHTER)

KRISTOF: Actually, my 22 rifle is in the closet behind me. Yeah, every farm has guns. I got a 22 when I turned 12. But there was also a time when there was not this (INAUDIBLE) of military-style weapons. Farms had rifles because they needed them to deal with coyote and varmints. But it wasn't people carrying around AR-15's.

LEMON: Mm-hmm.

KRISTOF: And the NRA was about advocating for hunters. It wasn't about, you know, letting anybody have any kind of weapon. So what I would recommend, you know, to people is don't use the word, don't talk about banning guns because that immediately has folks flinch. I think the term gun control tends to turn people off. I use the term gun safety.

LEMON: Or gun legislation. I think gun control -- no one wants to be controlled. The moment you say gun control, people start yelling about freedom and liberty. Am I wrong?

KRISTOF: That's exactly right. In fact, if you look at polls, then households with guns, for example, agree by about the same portion as households without guns, about 90 percent, that there should be universal background checks.

You know, similar shares want red flag laws so somebody who has mental health problems can't go out and buy a gun. People are open to safe storage of guns, which would make a huge difference.

And so if we can have -- if we lower the temperature and have conversations, then we can take real incremental steps that's won't eliminate gun deaths in America, but they could plausibly reduce the carnage by about a third in America, which would be 10,000 lives saved each year. LEMON: OK. Just real quick. I have just a couple seconds. I want to get this. Rep. Lauren Boebert, a lot of people noticed that her guns prominently displayed behind her. This was last month during a committee hearing.

But during an interview on Tuesday after the Georgia and Colorado shootings, the guns were no longer on display. She said she moved the guns upstairs so Biden can't get them. What do you think about the optics of this issue? Quickly if you can for me, please, sir.

KRISTOF: People have used guns as these, you know, tokens, these emblems to kind of prove their credentials. That's such a far cry from the gun culture where I grew up with where guns were for plinking, shooting squirrels, but they weren't for trying to prove your authenticity. I think it is a really sad direction we're going to.

LEMON: Thank you, Nicholas. Good to see you. It has been a while. I hope to see you in person when we can get back to normal. Thank you so much.

KRISTOF: I look forward tom. Congrats on the book.

LEMON: Thank you very much. I appreciate it.

[23:50:00]

LEMON: Ahead, an update on our top story tonight. A Georgia state lawmaker now released from jail after being arrested for protesting a voting restriction bill outside the governor's office.

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LEMON: Some breaking news out of Georgia State -- out of Georgia tonight. Georgia State Representative Park Cannon out of jail tonight. Her attorney, Gerald Griggs, tells CNN that after she was arrested and removed from the Georgia capital for --

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LEMON (voice-over): -- knocking on the governor's door -- office door while he was signing the state's sweeping bill restricting voting access.

[23:55:07]

UNKNOWN: She is not under arrest.

UNKNOWN: For what? Under arrest for what?

UNKNOWN: For trying to see something that our governor is doing? Our governor is signing a bill that affects all Georgians and you are going to arrest an elected representative? Why does the governor have more power than there -- than a representative?

(END VIDEO CLIP) LEMON: Cannon is facing two charges, felony obstruction and preventing or disrupting general assembly session. Both felonies in connection with her arrest at the statehouse. We will continue to update. Make sure you stay tuned to CNN.

And thanks for watching, everyone. Our coverage continues.

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