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Don Lemon Tonight

Veteran MPD Testifies Against Derek Chauvin; Rep. Ro Khanna (D- CA) Was Interviewed About His Colleague's Reaction to the Capitol Attack; One Police Killed Another Wounded in Capitol Attack; Attacker Dealing with Mental Issue; MLB Not a Fan of Georgia's New Election Law; CDC Release Confusing Guidelines. Aired 10-11p ET

Aired April 02, 2021 - 22:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[22:00:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DON LEMON, CNN HOST: This is CNN Tonight. I'm Don Lemon.

What an emotional week. A lot going on, and we have a lot to tell you about. We're going to begin though with the breaking news. And that's the attack outside the capitol building that killed a capitol police officer, the second deadly attack outside the capitol in just 3 months.

Tonight, flags flying at half-staff outside the capitol building and above the White House. Live pictures here from Washington, D.C.

Let's talk about what happened at the capitol. Capitol police saying a 25-year-old man rammed his car into a police barricade, then exited the car brandishing a knife. He was shot dead by police. That officer, William Billy Evans, an 18-year veteran of the force, member of is first responder's unit killed in the attack.

A second capitol officer was wounded. We are going to have complete coverage for you on what happened here, all just ahead so make sure you stay tuned. But we have to tell you about what happened in Minneapolis this week, today and last this week as well. The story we have been following closely every day, the murder trial of ex police officer Derek Chauvin, the first full week of testimony wrapping up today.

Chauvin charged with murder and manslaughter in the death of George Floyd last Memorial Day. Kneeling on George Floyd's neck for 9 minutes and 29 seconds as George Floyd is lying in what's called a prone position, in other words, flat on his chest and stomach repeatedly begging for his life, calling out for his deceased mama, screaming that he couldn't breathe until he stopped breathing.

A human being shown not one bit of mercy, not one ounce of humanity, but Chauvin or any offer officers on the -- by Chauvin or any of the officers present at that scene.

The horror of Floyd's excruciating last moments caught on video for the world to witness. Would we even be aware of the brutal way George Floyd died if it weren't for cell phone cameras? Would we know?

Today's testimony was in a word for Chauvin devastating. And I'm going to just show you why, word for word. OK? But first, let's go back to Monday's opening statements. This is what's Chauvin's defense attorney Eric Nelson told the jury. Here it is.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ERIC NELSON, DEFENSE LAWYER: You will learn that Derek Chauvin did exactly what he had been trained to do over the course of his 19-year career.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: Exactly what he was trained to do. It really makes you wonder where he was trained. Who trained him? Now, days into the trial, Chauvin's former colleagues in the Minneapolis Police Department not standing by him at all. Yesterday, his former supervisor testified that Chauvin should've stopped using such aggressive force, use of force when George Floyd stopped resisting. If he did, maybe Floyd would still be alive.

But the survivor's testimony pales in comparison to what jurors heard today. Taking the witness stand, Lieutenant Richard Zimmerman, the top homicide detective in the entire Minneapolis Police Department, the number one guy with 40 years of experience. Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MATTHEW FRANK, PROSECUTING ATTORNEY: Have you ever in all the years you've been working for the Minneapolis Police Department been trained to kneel on the neck of someone who is handcuffed behind their back in a prone position?

RICHARD ZIMMERMAN, POLICE HOMICIDE OFFICER, MINNEAPOLIS POLICE DEPARTMENT: No, I haven't.

FRANK: Is that, if that were done, with that be considered force.

ZIMMERMAN: Absolutely.

FRANK: What level of force might that be?

ZIMMERMAN: That would be the top tier, the deadly force.

FRANK: Why?

ZIMMERMAN: Because of the fact that if your knee is on a person's neck, that can kill them.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: I misspoke there, pardon me. The survivor's testimony, I should say the supervisor's testimony, forgive me for that error.

So, he said it there, never train to kneel on the neck of someone who is handcuffed because it can kill them, deadly force, deadly force. And then questions about the use of handcuffs.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

[22:05:03]

FRANK: Once you handcuff somebody, does that affect the amount of force that you should consider using?

ZIMMERMAN: Absolutely.

FRANK: How so?

ZIMMERMAN: Once a person is cuffed, the threat level goes down all way, you know, to, they are cuffed, how can they really hurt you?

FRANK: So, if you handcuff somebody you've taken away some of their ability to hurt you.

ZIMMERMAN: Absolutely.

FRANK: And if somebody who is handcuffed becomes less combative, does that change the amount of force that an officer is to use under policy?

ZIMMERMAN: Yes.

FRANK: How so?

ZIMMERMAN: Well, if they become less combative, you may just have them sit down on a curb. Or the idea is to calm the person down.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: Well, that was devastating. That was devastating for the defense. Remember, George Floyd was handcuffed before he was placed down in a prone position on the street. So according to Zimmerman, Floyd was no longer threat to those office on officers. The threat level had dropped way down once he was cuffed. And then saying this from the witness stand across from defendant Derek Chauvin.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

FRANK: They sent you review of the body worn cameras of the incident?

ZIMMERMAN: Yes.

FRANK: And directing your attention to that moment when Mr. Floyd is placed on the ground.

ZIMMERMAN: Yes.

FRANK: What is your -- your view of the use of force during that time period?

ZIMMERMAN: Totally unnecessary.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: Totally unnecessary, that's a quote. Right? That's been kind to Chauvin, a man who showed no kindness to George Floyd. But let's not lose faith here, because in testimony this week, we did see examples of humanity, lots of examples, sincere, heartfelt expressions of sorrow from bystanders who witnesses the brutality against George Floyd.

The first witness call to the stand, Minneapolis 911 dispatcher Jena Scurry who was watching Floyd's arrest from a camera mounted nearby, and was so concerned about by what she was seeing she actually alerted a police supervisor to what was happening.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JENA SCURRY, MINNEAPOLIS 911 DISPATCHER: My instincts were telling me that something is wrong, something is not right. I don't know what, but something wasn't right.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: And eyewitness Donald Williams, the mixed martial arts fighter who knew what he was witnessing that day was wrong and call the police on the police.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNKNOWN: At some point did you make a 911 call?

DONALD WYNN WILLIAMS, WITNESS: That is correct, I did call the police on the police.

UNKNOWN: Right. And why did you do that?

WILLIAMS: Because I believed I witnessed a murder.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: And then there is a young black woman, a teenager who recorded the now infamous video of Chauvin kneeling on George Floyd's neck, testifying that as she witnessed Floyd struggling to breathe, she saw her Black father, or Black brother, and her Black friends.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DARNELLA FRAZIER, WITNESS: And I look at that and I look at how that could've been one of them. It's been nights I stayed up apologizing and apologizing to George Floyd for not doing more. And not basically interacting, and not saving his life. But it's like, it's not what I should've done. It's what he should've done.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: The burden that young woman is carrying, the burden made extra heavy because she is a Black woman in a country that very often treats Black citizens very differently than it treats its white citizens. But it is her final words that are at the heart of this murder case

and she's right. It's not about which she did that day, it's what he, Derek Chauvin should have done differently.

I want to go to the nation's Capitol now to get the latest on the attack there as well. CNN's Brian Todd and Shimon Prokupecz join me now. Good evening, gentlemen, to both of you. We have so much to cover here.

Let's start with what the incident at the capitol. Brian, you know, the capitol police are under so much stress from the insurrection and now another officer is dead. What happened? Take us through this, walk us through this attack.

BRIAN TODD, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Don, this horrific attacked like so many of its kind seemed to play out in a matter of just a few seconds, if you listen to the description of acting Police Chief Yogananda Pittman. Here's how she broke it down, Don.

Just after one o'clock p.m., she said the suspect now identified as Noah Green, rammed his blue Sedan into the north barricade of the capitol, that sits right on Constitution Avenue on the north side of the capital.

[22:10:02]

In the process of doing that he struck two officers. He then exited the vehicle with a knife and ran toward officers, according to the acting police chief here. He did not respond to verbal commands at that moment. At that point, a least one officer drew their weapon and shot Green.

We can tell you according to one law enforcement official that during this exchange, at some point, at least one of the officers was stabbed. And we know now that Officer William Billy Evans has perished as a result of this incident.

The other officer we're told is in stable condition with non-life- threatening injuries. Another thing I can tell you according to the acting U.S. Capitol police chief, Don, is that Noah Green the suspect was not known to the U.S. Capitol Police before this attack.

LEMON: Brian, flags are at half-staff tonight in honor of the Officer. So, tell us what more of what we know about him? I understand that the House Speaker is releasing some personal information about his family and so forth?

TODD: They did, Don. Yes. The House Speaker Nancy Pelosi and Senate Majority Leader Chuck Schumer who said that they spoke to his family members did indicate after speaking to them that Officer Evans is survived at least by his mother and two children. That's some of the information that we got later this evening.

We do know that William Billy Evans was an 18-year veteran of the U.S. Capitol Police. He also served on the capitol division first responder unit. So, he could've quite easily been one of the more elite officers in this capitol unit that is of course now as we know being bolstered and revamped and refitted in the wake of the January 6th insurrection at the capitol.

Officers like Officer Evans in that first responder unit going even more important, so they're losing a very valued member of their ranks tonight, Don.

LEMON: Brian, standby. I want to bring Shimon in. Shimon, we are learning more about the suspect from his social media post. He said that he believed that the government was targeting him with mind control. I mean, it sounds like someone who is very deeply troubled here.

SHIMON PROKUPECZ, CNN CRIME AND JUSTICE REPORTER: Yes, Don, another case where we are seeing an individual who launches an attack and seems to have some sort of mental issues, something going on in their life and as you said, deeply disturbed.

And what the FBI and investigators have been looking into is the social media posts, and I'll run, you threw some of them where he talks about, he has afflictions, that he suffered as a result of the CIA and FBI, government agencies of the United States.

In another posting that the FBI is reviewing, he talks about how the U.S. government is the number one enemy of Black people. It was a link to a post which shows minister Louis Farrakhan. And then there was another post where he talks about, and these are really troubling things that he's writing here, that he suffered multiple homes break- ins, food poisoning, assaults.

And then as you mentioned, Don, that mind control that he talked about, that someone was controlling his mind. So obviously, these are all things that the FBI is looking at. You know, I've talked to sources that it does appear that there was something going on here in this individual's life.

Almost immediately a lot of officials that I was talking to were pointing to that as being partially, perhaps the motive here or the cause of some of this, as they were working through this investigation. Also, we learned that he lost his job, so that is something else that authorities are looking at.

But all in all, as you say, Don, here we have another situation, you know, where someone perhaps who has things going on in their life, in their head that leads into such horrible act. You know, just last week, I was in Colorado, in Boulder, we saw a situation very similar. An individual that the family says was having a hard time, was going through some mental issues.

And now again, you know, we have here possibly another situation like this. This is something certainly that the FBI and the investigators here are looking into, Don?

LEMON: We'll continue to follow. We'll be following it throughout the evening here on CNN for -- I'll be live for the next couple of hours, and then our live coverage will continue after I'm off the air. Thank you, gentlemen. I appreciate both of you. I appreciate your

reporting.

Most of Congress away for Easter recess now. But not my next guest. Congressman Ro Khanna is still in D.C. and tells us how it all unfolded for him. That's next.

[22:15:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: We're covering tonight's breaking news, it's out of Washington, the second deadly attack at the U.S. Capitol in just three months. One Capitol Hill police officer killed, another officer wounded.

I want to bring in now Democratic Congressman Ro Khanna of California who was on his way back to his Capitol Hill office when the attack unfolded. We appreciate you joining us, Congressman.

So, you know, we've been hearing how Capitol Hill was finally starting to, maybe, feel a little bit normal again. And here we are a second attack in a matter of months, another officer killed. Why -- why -- what are you hearing from your colleagues tonight? That's what I want to know.

REP. RO KHANNA (D-CA): Don, first of all, my heart goes out to the family of the officer who lost his life in duty of this country. And what I'm hearing from colleagues and many is just the sheer appreciation for Capitol Hill police officers. They kept us safe.

I was coming back to my office, it was locked up, and I had an officer say, go into your car quickly. I went to my car, and I stayed there until the incident was resolved. When I was walking back to my office, I could tell that the officers were obviously shaken up.

So, they need to be recognized, and we need to recognize that their security is at risk. When you go into the building, they are standing two or three of them in front of the barricade -- these barricades. I don't think people realize that. They are often got harassed when they tried to stop people for I.D.s, and I don't think that they are very safe in what they are having to do.

LEMON: Yes. This attacker posted about the federal government targeting him with mind control. Clearly, his motivation appears to be different than what we saw transpire on January 6th.

[22:20:01]

But are you worried that the capitol is now an even bigger target because of the insurrection?

KHANNA: Don, I am. I mean, I think when people saw the insurrection, there was a license to be a copycat or to think that somehow that was a legitimate way of showing your grievance. And that's why I hope tonight every member of Congress, every senator can say, the violence is completely unacceptable, that that is not the American way. I mean, even that simple statement I think would help in our democracy.

LEMON: Retired Lieutenant General Russel Honore just completed a security review for speaker -- the House Speaker Nancy Pelosi following the capitol insurrection. This is what he said earlier tonight. Here it is.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RUSSEL HONORE, RETIRED U.S. ARMY: Many members challenged the recommendations some of the recommendations we made in terms of barriers that need in harming of the capitol, while keeping the capitol open to the public. And the challenge was, they were telling me, hey, we've gone to the SCIF, general, we are not seeing any threats to the capitol.

We've got to accept the fact that 24/7 the capital is a threat to domestic, foreign, and criminals who might want to attack the center of our leadership of the United States.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: Do you think there is going to be more support for the recommendation from General Russel Honore? More funding and things like barriers out on the ground?

KHANNA: I do, Don. It's sad because the capital is supposed to be open to Americans. One of the things I love is when 8th grade classes come and visit me and students can roam the halls and meet members of Congress and their staff. And I think many members want it to be an open place.

But he is right. That security has to come first. We obviously are a target. And we shouldn't be compromising on that security. And there's going to have to be a way of balancing that with still having the place to be open for any citizen.

LEMON: I'm glad you -- what do you -- so do you have any idea of what that balance is? And you know, you want to be safe, but you also still want it to be the people's house, right?

KHANNA: Yes. No, I mean, I think one thing long term could be having the perimeter had around the Library of Congress, the Supreme Court, and the capitol, the House and Senate buildings, and buildings, the visitors center outside of that. I mean, obviously, that's a multi- year project and we would need to discuss it.

But then there is the more immediate term, there were barb wire fences and thousands of troops. I think many members thought, I'm glad those barb wire fences have come down. But after today's incident, my view, at least, is that we have to prioritize the security. And it's not just the security of members of Congress or their staff, it's the security of these officers who are putting their lives at risk. It is unfair to them to put them in harm's way.

And one thing, Don, I was just watching the early part of your show, because I think we have two conflicting narratives in America. On the one hand we recognize and respect the heroism of the capitol police and so many law enforcements who guard our democracy. At the same day, we have a trial of police ex's, and police violence, and racism with police brutality. And I think the challenge for our country is how we have an honest conversation about both and find a way to reconcile that.

LEMON: Congressman Ro Khanna, thank you very much. I appreciate it.

KHANNA: Thank you.

LEMON: So, he says that ex-police officer Derek Chauvin's use of force against George Floyd was quote, "totally Unnecessary," and he should know -- he should know about this because he's the longest serving officer in the Minneapolis P.D. The testimony you need to hear, that's next.

[22:25:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: And we're back now. Another day of bombshell testimony in the trial in Minneapolis police officer member, Derek Chauvin, the longest serving member of the Milwaukee Police Department? Telling jurors that based on his review of bystander video, Chauvin's use of force on George Floyd was excessive and it violated department policy. Watch.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ZIMMERMAN: Once a person is cuffed, the threat level goes down all way, you know, to, they are cuffed, how can they really hurt you?

You could have some guys try to kick you or something, but you can move out of the way. That person is handcuffed, you know, the threat level is just not there.

Once you secure or handcuff a person, you need to get him out of the prone position as soon as possible because it restricts their breathing.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: I said Milwaukee, obviously I meant Minneapolis. It has been a long week, so forgive me for that.

So, Cedric, thank you for joining us. Cedric Alexander is here. He is former president of the National Organization of Black Law Enforcement Executives. Angela Rose Myers is here as well, the president of the Minneapolis chapter of the NAACP.

I'm so happy to have you both.

Cedric, you know, that was damming testimony from Minneapolis Police Department's top homicide detective.

CEDRIC ALEXANDER, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Yes, it was. And any time you have a 36-year veteran who's a mid-level manager over a homicide unit, I can tell you he has years of experience, he knows the job, he investigates a number of variety of different types of deaths and beyond just that of course officer-involved shootings. So, he's got a lot of experience.

And what he says is going to carry a lot of weight in that courtroom and his delivery and the confidence in which he shared his knowledge was quite striking also, Don.

[22:30:06]

LEMON: On Monday, Cedric, Chauvin's attorney argued in his opening statement that his client, he said, "he did when he was trained to do," and that was a quote. Did this witness just completely destroy that argument?

ALEXANDER: Absolutely, he destroyed it and it's going to be even more interesting once they bring in these -- those who are members of the training department who I would suspect is going to testify. That is not a maneuver that is taught. I don't know of anywhere in this country where they are teaching officers to put a knee to the neck to subdue someone under any type of circumstances.

So that's going to be interesting, but when you have a homicide lieutenant telling you point blank that is not a taught technique within their department, you pretty much can carry that to the bank.

LEMON: Angela, you know throughout the week we have seen an outpouring of guilt and grief from witnesses on the stand over not being able to do anything to help George Floyd. Watch this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ALYSSA, UNDERAGE WITNESS TO GEORGE FLOYD'S DEATH: That felt like there wasn't really anything I could do as a bystander. That I was powerless there and I felt like I was feeling it.

GENEVIEVE HANSEN, MINNEAPOLIS FIREFIGHTER: If there's a man being killed. I would've been able to provide medical attention to the best of my abilities, and this human was denied that right.

CHRISTOPHER MARTIN, CUP FOODS EMPLOYEE: If I would've just not taken the bill, this could've been avoided.

UNKNOWN: I know that this is difficult, but can you just explain sort of what your feelings in this moment?

CHARLES MCMILLIAN, WITNESS: I can't, I feel helpless. I don't have a moment either to understand him --

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: Look, as I say these are your people, as they say, Angela, your neighbors Angela up there on the stand. What is this been like for your community?

ANGELA ROSE MYERS, PRESIDENT, MINNEAPOLIS NAACP: It has definitely been re-triggering, re-traumatizing in a lot of ways for our community, but our community is stepping up and you are seeing this in the streets. You are seeing this through healing spaces that are happening, through the peaceful protests that are happening for folk who are calling for justice.

I just want to say that, you know, this is the truth. And it is amazing to see so many folks who saw the humanity in George Floyd that day, who saw that he deserved better treatment. But they were bystanders, and it's, you know, it is just so heartbreaking that the juxtaposition of having these bystanders clearly seeing the humanity in George Floyd and the man that was on the ground that day and the police officers, when you watch the video not having that same empathy.

So, it's re-triggering for our community right now, but our community is stepping up to fill in the gaps of saying that we are here, we are filling our community with love, with restorative justice practices, with healings, spiritual, physical and mental healing spaces, and we are going to be and we are going to see the humanity in us that those police officers and Derek Chauvin refused to see that day. And we're going to see it not just in George but in everyone in our community.

LEMON: So, Angela, listen, that has been the crux of it. And that's what I've been saying. Everyone at the scene saw the humanity in this man, except but for those officers who were on the scene who are supposed to be protecting and serving. That's -- that's really what's going to have to be fixed here. Why is that? Now, -- now what? How do you get the members of the Minneapolis Police Department, and later for you, Cedric, all over the country for officers to start seeing the humanity in the people that are supposed to protect and serving? Angela first.

MYERS: Well, one of the things that I think that we'll have to do is change the policy, you know, change the law. We are in a democracy and the great thing about our country and our Constitution is that we, the people have the power to make sure that our policies reflect our true values.

And so, when we see something like this happening, and you know, when the Derek Chauvin goes to court, if the case is guilty versus not guilty, that's, you know, that will expose if it ends up being not guilty, the justice system as ineffective and condemning what's wrong.

LEMON: Right.

MYERS: Because the whole world saw that what Derek Chauvin did to George Floyd was wrong. OK?

[22:35:01]

And so, if he is not guilty, that does not mean that he was not wrong in this case. We've all seen the video. We've all seen that what he did is wrong. And so now we need to step up and make sure that our policies and our laws can condemn what's wrong so that those who do wrong can be held in accountability.

LEMON: Yes. Be held accountable.

MYERS: Exactly.

LEMON: Cedric, listen, the question is, so, you know, the police community reacting as well. So, my question to her specifically is what needs to happen in Minneapolis, but what needs to happen around the country?

ALEXANDER: Well, and I've been saying this for some time, Don, and it goes back to the op-ed piece I wrote a couple of weeks ago in regard to this. And we got to go back and look at who it is that we are hiring. We got to look beyond the driver's license, record. We got to look beyond their GPA average in school or any references that they may give us.

We got to dig deeper as to who is becoming police officers, because we need to know more about who they associate with, who they hang out with, what had been their history and affiliations with organizations, groups, individuals, et cetera, et cetera, to be able to get a social and digital footprint certainly is helpful, but we got to dig deeper.

And then we got to train better. We got to look at our training protocols, how well are we training them, how we're supervising. Because here is what we cannot teach, Don. I can teach you to run, I continue to fight, I can teach you to shoot, but I cannot teach you humanity. That is something you learn in your family of origin, in your church, in your communities in which you live.

You have to come into a police department, any type of public service already with a heart and a sense of humanity. And when you go into those agencies is (AUDIO GAP) that has the culture to sustain of humaneness and dignity about human life.

LEMON: You're both --

ALEXANDER: That has to change.

LEMON: Yes. And you are both right. Thank you. I appreciate both of your perspectives.

ALEXANDER: Thank you.

LEMON: Major League Baseball isn't a fan of Georgia's new election law. It is -- it's pulling the all-American star game -- the all-star game, excuse me, from Atlanta over the states' new law that makes it harder to vote. Bob Costas weighs in. He's next.

[22:40:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: So, in response to Georgia's new law that makes it harder for people of color to vote, Major League Baseball's moving the season's all-star game out of Atlanta, the commissioner explaining the decision. In a statement, saying, Major League Baseball fundamentally supports

voting rights for all Americans and opposes restrictions at the ballot box. The Atlanta Braves who were going to be hosting the game saying that they are, quote, "deeply disappointed," adding that they hoped our city could use this event as a platform to enhance the discussion.

So, let's have a discussion now. Hall of fame broadcaster Bob Costas is here, a CNN contributor. Bob, I always love having these conversations with you. You always give us such nuance and such great information here and such a great perspective.

This is really a huge decision from Major League Baseball, because at the same time we are learning that the PGA Tour is planning to keep the tour championship in Georgia. Give me your initial reaction to all of this.

BOB COSTAS, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Well, there are so many aspects to it. One that strikes me is that until relatively recently, baseball was not as apt a sport to weigh in on social issues as perhaps the NBA, the WNBA, the NFL. But that all changed. I mean, last year was obviously a time of reckoning and it continues.

There's a player's alliance now in baseball, made up primarily of players of color, primarily African American players, but also widely supported by white players around Major League Baseball. So, there are still some people who are going to say stick to sports, stick to sports.

But as we've discussed before, Don, there is a long history of athletes using their platform to register a point of view and to be, in many cases, effective and in some cases even profound. The question is going to be forward on a case-by-case basis, is this always the right sort of approach? There may be some people who are in an agreement overall, have some differences with some aspect, or differences with the approach.

And as Stacey Abrams has said, she has mixed feelings about it. You can understand how the Atlanta Braves feel about it. There are people who feel that this is taking some economic opportunity away from those who would benefit from having a big event like an all-star game. And some of those people are relatively lower on the economic ladder.

So I understand those objections, but the larger point that's being made here is that, as Daniel Dale pointed out about an hour ago with you, yes, you can claim as Governor Kemp did that there are certain provisions within this bill that will enhance access to voting. But in the overall on balance, it actually restricts voting and it's clear that it will most negatively impact people of color and people at the lower end of the economic scale.

And so, this is what baseball has decided to do. Now this is also different, when you talk about the PGA Tour, you talk about the Masters next week. The Masters is only in one place at one time. Baseball can move its all-star game and it will to someplace else. So, these players are still going to play in an all-star game. LEMON: Yes. You know, it's interesting that you brought up with Daniel

Dale said. Because you know, I've been reading a lot about what's happening with the voter laws in Georgia. And I think the main thing that people have to remember, right, there's a lot of misinformation going around and half-truths, and we know that happens, is that.

[22:45:02]

But the main thing the people should remember is that the initial -- the impetus to this it was a lie about the election that it started from now.

COSTAS: Yes.

LEMON: It may enhance hours in some places, it may take certain things away, but it was billed initially on a lie and we must keep that in mind. So, we have to start from the truth with this.

Can I -- let me ask you about the mayor of Atlanta -- Keisha Lance Bottoms, also Martin Luther King III, Dodgers owner Magic Johnson, and LeBron James as well have -- they have ownership. LeBron James has an ownership stake in the Boston Red Sox. They are all tweeting that they support the move. What do you say to people who think that this is cancel culture or baseball being to, you know, quote, "woke." I know those are catchphrases but, and I hate little catchphrases but what do you -- you know what I'm saying.

COSTAS: Yes. They're catchphrases and they are sort of an intellectual get out of jail free card. Governor Kemp who deserves some credit for standing up to President Trump's lies in a forthright way after the election, nonetheless, invoked this bogus thing about cancel culture and woke culture.

I'm not saying that those aren't legitimate complaints. In fact, there is something very illiberal about woke culture. Cancel culture is real, and people of common sense and compassion across the political spectrum should speak out against it, because it very often makes no sense at all and it's not proportionated and very often hurts innocent people. OK fine.

But what does this have to do with being woke or cancel culture? It's just a buzzword that appeals to certain people on the political spectrum and it's used in this case to try and dismissed the legitimate grievances that led Major League Baseball to remove the game from Atlanta.

LEMON: Very well put. So, Bob, listen, athletes and athletes and activism always go and in hand. We know that. Baseball in particular. I mean, you think the greats like Jackie Robinson, Roberto Clemente, Hank Aaron sadly who just, you know, passed not long ago. The MLB is planning to celebrate Aaron's life and career during the all-star weekend by the way.

COSTAS: Yes.

LEMON: This is -- there is a precedent for athletes and even leagues to take a stand. This isn't something that's new. I think what's new here maybe professional athletes is are feeling more empowered.

COSTAS: Yes, they are feeling more empowered. Social media has something to do with it. People are more inclined to express their point of view. Yes, there is as you said a very long history, a noble history in many cases, of athletes using their voice, and this is one example.

I said earlier though, Don, I think going forward, it has to be on a case-by-case basis.

LEMON: Right.

COSTAS: This seems to make sense to me. It's a shame that they can't honor Hank Aaron in the year of his death in the year where -- the city in which he broke Babe Ruth's record and where his legacy resides, that's a shame. But baseball will still -- will still honor him wherever the ball game, the all-star game winds up being played. But

I'm just saying this. Going forward, every particular gripe isn't necessarily best addressed by a boycott. And there -- we have to recognize the people of good faith, let's say within a baseball clubhouse, teammates, people have great feeling for one another, they don't all necessarily see every issue exactly the same way.

So, I think as I'm saying, yes, I'm repeating myself here, it's a case-by-case basis, but I think that there's a very good case to be made for what baseball has decided to do here. Plus, there's this. There was corporate pressure. There were going to be corporations and possible sponsors that were going to object to this, and there were players who would already said, we won't play in the game if it remains in Atlanta.

And Dave Roberts, who was the manager of the national league team, because the Dodgers won the World Series. Dave Roberts have said he wasn't sure whether he would manage the game in Atlanta. So, there were multiple dynamics that came into play here and lead to the decision.

LEMON: Yes. Listen, you're right. Case by case basis, case by case basis not everything falls into one big thing. Not everything is for a long fire.

COSTAS: That's right.

LEMON: Thank you, Bob. I appreciate it. Enjoy -- enjoy the holiday.

COSTAS: Bye, Don. Thank you.

LEMON: Your Easter. And say hello to your lovely wife.

COSTAS: You too.

LEMON: I appreciate it.

COSTAS: Thank you. LEMON: Yes.

COSTAS: I'll talk to you soon.

LEMON: So, if you've been vaccinated, can you travel? Can you see your family for Easter? The CDC has new guidance on both and we're going to tell you what it is after this.

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LEMON: The CDC fully vaccinated people can travel at low risk to themselves, and those fully vaccinated can safely gather for Easter Sunday indoors and without wearing masks. But it still isn't necessarily recommending people to do so.

OK. So, let's talk about all that and more with CNN medical analyst Dr. Jonathan Reiner. It's our nightly house call. So glad that you're here. So, let's talk about that. Do you agree with this travel guidance?

JONATHAN REINER, CNN MEDICAL ANALYST: Absolutely. What the CDC is saying essentially is that vaccines work, and that people who are fully vaccinated are very unlikely to either acquire or transmit the virus. And if you're unlikely to acquire or transmit the virus, why not travel? Why not meet with other people, including families that include unvaccinated people?

So, I think this was really good guidance. The way I differ a little bit with the CDC director is she walked it back, and said fully vaccinated people can travel but we're not recommending travel.

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LEMON: Yes.

REINER: What she really needed to say was vaccinated people can safely travel. If you're not vaccinated, it's not safe for you to travel.

LEMON: Yes.

REINER: I see her reluctance to do that, but that's basically where we are.

LEMON: Listen, so, Easter plans, someone in the family tested positive so now everyone is not getting together. That's the dilemma --

REINER: Yes.

LEMON: -- that families are facing all around the country.

REINER: Right. And the new CDC guidance says you can meet with people from a single household. And the reason CDC is saying that is if you -- if you are vaccinated and you go to a household of unvaccinated people, you are unlikely to, it's unlikely to be spread outside that household from encounter. But if you go someplace and two or three other households get together, that's the scenario where the virus spreads widely.

So again, if you're not vaccinated, you need to hunker down. If you are vaccinated, you can venture out, but again, wear a mask.

LEMON: You've got it, doctor. Doctor's orders, everyone. Thank you, sir. I appreciate it.

REINER: My pleasure.

LEMON: Yes, a man using his car as a weapon and then wielding a knife in an attack on the capitol today. One officer is dead, another injured. Everything you need to know so far. Next.

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