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Don Lemon Tonight

Biden's Major Push On Massive Infrastructure Plan And Guns Executive Action; GOP State Lawmakers Moving To Block Access To Voting; Biden Argues Definition Of Infrastructure Is Evolving; Brennan Center Claims Over 360 Bills Introduced In States For Voting Restriction; How Black Men View The Chauvin Trial Through The Lens Of American History And Racial Injustice; Trump And Allies Whitewashing Deadly Violence Of January 6; Rising COVID Vaccinations Sparking Debate Over Vaccine Passports. Aired 11p-12a ET

Aired April 07, 2021 - 23:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[23:00:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DON LEMON, CNN HOST (on camera): President Biden putting in full-court press on his massive $2 trillion infrastructure plan, arguing that tax corporate cuts are necessary to help pay for it. But saying he is open to negotiations on tax rates.

Also President Biden planning to announce tomorrow, that he is taking his first executive action on guns in the wake of a deadly mass shootings last month in Atlanta and Boulder.

And in the Derek Chauvin murder trial, an expert witness in police use of force training -- and police used of force training testifying that COVID - excuse me, that Chauvin used deadly force by kneeling on George Floyd's neck, when it was no longer necessary. That Floyd was on the ground, hand cuffed and not resisting.

I want to bring in CNN's senior political analyst John Avlon and Kirsten Powers. Good evening to both of you, thanks for joining. John Avlon, let's start with you. The president is really tuning out the noise, pushing ahead on guns, infrastructure, speeding up vaccinations while the GOP goes, you know, all in on Trump and the culture wars. Is this just the way it is now? Biden is on his own, getting things done and the GOP is talking about things that are relevant?

JOHN AVLON, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST (on camera): I think it is a snapshot of where politics are. Remember, I think this is consistent with the way even Joe Biden campaigned. He did not over index Twitter talk, he focused actually on where the real votes were in the Democratic primary.

But you have the same symmetric polarization in Congress where you do have the Republican Party disproportionately dominated by folks who are playing to a Fox News crowd, where being a troll is seen as a sign of success rather than getting anything done. Biden is a betting on the fact that a lot of his proposals are popular with Republican voters. But he's still got to get things done by reaching out to people in Republicans in Congress.

And there is all this talk of bipartisan support, but we haven't seen any evidence of it. So, he's moving forward alone, there is risk of blow back in that. But at least he's going big and trying to get things done, betting that those actions will help him cobble together a governing majority in the long run.

LEMON: That's a really smart assessment, being a troll is a sign of success. And that is exactly what's happening on the right, right now. And rather than actually working for their constituents, and for the American people. You know, I had this conversation just now with Charlie Dent, and with Gloria Borger about Senator Joe Manchin, Kirsten. With this new op-ed making it clear that he will not vote to eliminate or weakened the filibuster. Does this essentially mean no voting rights act?

KIRSTEN POWERS, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST (on camera): Yeah, I mean that very well could be the outcome, and I think the idea that, you know, we somehow, we should be trying to find more calmity and keep the filibuster because I think what Charlie was saying was you know, the more extreme sides, right are the ones that always want to get rid of the filibuster.

And I have a lot of respect for Charlie, but I do respectfully sort of disagree with the idea that the extremes in the Democratic Party, and the extremes in the Republican Party have anything to do with each other. The extremes in the Democratic Party, one voting rights. The extremes in the Democratic Party want single payer health care.

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You know, they want to have health insurance for everybody. So, these are not really highly problematic use. They maybe to use that people may disagree with, but there are not the same types of things that Republicans want to do for examples, Republicans want to make it, so people can vote. Certain people can vote at least.

They want to make it. So, it's harder for black people to vote, they want to make it harder. So, it's make it harder really for anybody who is reeling in the Democratic Party to vote. So, it's not really an apples to apples comparison, in my mind. And so, I think that if I was Joe Biden I would support getting rid of the filibuster.

LEMON: Yeah, it's just what you are saying you're talking about restricting people from voting, I just said this thing on this top election official in Mississippi basically saying, that it was dangerous to have college students voting because they may be woke. It's like well, I mean, --

POWERS: Yes.

AVLON: It doesn't really work that way.

LEMON: That's not how it works, and he's actually -- he actually believes that that is a real defense. He thinks its right, that is the problem with -- POWERS: But he saying the quiet part out loud, he's saying because

they are claiming that that's not what this is about. Like, they're not trying to, you know, they're not actually trying to keep anybody from voting. They're just trying to protect people fraud. He saying the real reason, which is we don't want people voting, like we actually -- that's actually what we're doing.

AVLON: But it is also a measure I think of just this sort of the right-wing ecosystem where an elected official does say the quiet part allowed. What we were dealing with is white identity politics here.

LEMON: No, no, John, John, John, John --

AVLON: Go on.

LEMON: They actually, he believes that what he's saying is right. It's not like he's hiding, and he thinks that his logic is correct. That it is OK to do it and there are many people who feel that. Yes, of course, you can have that happen, they don't understand that no, that's not the way it works. It's not like, he's like -- he said something by accident. That is what he thinks, and he thinks its right.

AVLON: 100 percent, and I think that's what we're confronting, right? This is about white identity politics and arguments being percolated in an echo chamber. That don't have any common sense or common facts behind him.

You have a professor on yesterday, did a study at the folks arrested at the insurrection at the Capitol. And this was about -- this was not about, you know, economic resentment. This was about white identity politics, fear of Democratic chain -- demographic change, the replacement theory. This is all stuff that's been propagated on the far-right and that's what we are confronting which is why it's difficult to have a debate right now on our democracy based on comment facts.

But we've got to keep on trying to do it. And I will say in defense of Joe Manchin, in his op-Election Day he said, he thinks there could be bipartisan support for elements of a voting rights act. Presumably he is talking about John Lewis Act, not HR1. That is a big if.

But Biden talks about unity. And listen, I'm not trying to diminish the hurdle we are dealing with here. But there is a question about leading with example, but the greatest difficulty in this is that you have a disproportionate influence on the right-wing of the Republican Party that is not dealing with a common set of facts in this country. And we are going to have to find a way to break through that.

POWERS: Yeah, but the thing is, this is a political strategy for the right, for the Republicans. Because they don't have anything else to run on other than Dr. Seuss and Mrs. Potato Head being canceled. So -- because the fact is, a lot of their voters do support a lot of things that Joe Biden is doing.

So, what they have to do, is they have to focus on things and inundate their voters with this so called cancel culture stuff. Because that is what is going to get them riled up. If the voters actually we're hearing about the things that Joe Biden was doing, that they support that would be a real problem for them.

LEMON: But Kirsten, I do think that they are. When I speak to people who are not necessarily liberal, they do know what Joe Biden is doing and this whole idea about him is as (inaudible) person who doesn't -- who has, you know, no idea what he's doing, they are not buying it. People aren't buying, and that is the danger I think that's why they're scrambling and panicking right now. It's because people really aren't buying it, it's not sticking. I got to run though.

POWERS: Right, but that's all I'm saying that's why they are inundating them with this other kind of white grievance politics.

LEMON: I've got someone very special waiting, not that you guys aren't special.

AVLON: Oh.

LEMON: I love you, though. Thank you guys. I'll see you soon.

AVLON: Take care, man.

LEMON (on camera): President Biden pushing back today against criticism from Republicans that he is taking liberties with the definition of infrastructure including, things like job training and funding for child and older care.

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JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: We need to starting infrastructure through its effect on the lives of working people in America, what is the foundation today that they need to carve out their place in the middle class?

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But to automatically say that the only thing it's infrastructure is a highway of bridge or whatever, that is not rational. It really isn't.

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LEMON: Joining me now to discuss, Energy Secretary Jennifer Granholm. Thank you for joining us so much, secretary. I appreciate it.

JENNIFER GRANHOLM, ENERGY SECRETARY, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR (on camera): You bet. Glad to be on, Don.

LEMON: So let's talk about this, because the president is calling this a jobs and infrastructure bill. And this bill includes parts of the American economic and physical infrastructure like housing, schools, water, electric cars, high-speed internet. The question is, and I know you're hearing it, why go so big?

GRANHOLM: Because the moment is big. Because we are way behind. We are watching our economic competitors eat us for lunch. And we need to capture the lead and not let our economic competitors steal away our sectors, the best us, in research and development. So, we are going big because the moment requires it

LEMON: So, Secretary, these are things that the American people don't usually think of when they think about infrastructure, they think of roads and bridges. Senator Kirsten Gillibrand tweeting today, quote, paid leave is infrastructure, childcare is infrastructure, caregiving is infrastructure. Republican are mocking that argument, but if you put them aside, do the American people believe those things belong in an infrastructure package?

GRANHOLM: This is called the American jobs plan and if you look at the poll from the Morning Consult, just this morning, 64 percent of Republicans believe that we should be investing in caring for our elderly through and, this infrastructure. Infrastructure and jobs bill. I mean, the numbers of Republicans who believe that infrastructure is an everyday Republicans I'm talking about, who believe that infrastructure is the scaffolding of our lives. And these are the jobs of the future.

So, this is a bill that addresses people who need jobs in all pockets of the country. All kinds of people, all kinds of jobs. But actually on Friday, Georgetown put out a study that said that the jobs that will be created in this bill, will require a high school degree, but you don't have to have a college degree to have these jobs. These are jobs that are going to be necessary to build the scaffolding of America.

LEMON (on camera): Let's talk more about the plan, OK? Because it includes an increase in the corporate tax rate, from 21 percent to 28 percent. Biden defending that today, I want you to listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BIDEN: 28 percent would still have lower corporate rates than anytime between World War II and 2017. It will generate over a trillion dollars in taxes, over 15 years. I'm not trying to punish anybody, but damn it, maybe it's because I come from middle class neighborhood. I'm sick and tired of ordinary people being fleeced.

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LEMON (on camera): There are some Democratic Senators that think that this increase is too steep. The president says that he is opened a compromise. Would the Biden administration meet in the middle on that number?

GRANHOLM: Well, they did meet in the middle. This is where the 28 percent came from. Because the rate used to be 35 percent. Then it was a drop to 21 percent and now its back right in the middle. However, I mean, he has said, he knows that there will be compromise. He knows, he has put out a plan, it is not the last word. He is inviting input and what he really wants to see is a tax structure that is fair.

When the tax rate was dropped to 21 percent, and 91 of the Fortune 500 companies still paid zero taxes, because they had all of the loopholes, and moving taxes, (inaudible), our assets offshore. That's not fair, I mean, he wants to have a tax structure that is fair so that the couple who is a nurse and a teacher, don't have to pay more than Amazon.

And even Jeff Bezos came out today and said, Amazon should be taxed. There should be a corporate tax rate that has corporations paying their fair share.

LEMON (on camera): So, here's about the White House is highlighting today that Trump's own former national economic adviser Gary Cohn, said this was back in June of 2020. That a 28 percent rate is a good thing, look at this.

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GARY COHN, FORMER DIRECTOR WHITE HOUSE ECONOMIC COUNCIL: I am actually OK at 28 percent, you know the level we got to in our tax plan on the corporate side was actually a bit lower than I thought we needed to go. I always thought there was a compromised rate sort of in the mid- twenties that makes sense.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON (on camera): All right. Mid 20s, that made sense. Trump's guys said, he was OK with 28 percent, Manchin says that he doesn't want to raise a past 25 percent. Do you think you get him to budge?

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GRANHOLM: I think that there is room for compromise in there, Don. I mean, that's what the president has said, he wants it to be paid for. But if other people have ideas about how to get it paid for, he is totally willing to listen. But what he doesn't want to do is do nothing. Inaction is not an option, and there is a sense of urgency about this as well, because the moment is urgent.

We are still 9 million jobs or more short of where we wear when the pandemic began. We are not going to wait around, but we do want everybody to know Republicans and Democrats that we want to hear their ideas and we want to compromise.

LEMON: Listen, I sat with you and watched you encourage people to go vote over -- you know, during the 2020 election. Your home state of Michigan, one of the 47 states who restricted new voting laws have been introduced, it's putting more pressure on Democrats to pass before the people act. It's voting too important to let this filibuster stand in the way?

GRANHOLM: Well, you know, I'd be speaking as a Secretary of Energy, in this interview if I took off that hat and my hat is a human being voting is so utterly important, and the president has said that as well. He thinks these voting laws that are being passed not just in Michigan but as you have highlighted in Georgia and other states, is undemocratic, it's un-American. We cannot let that stand. Obviously, the president will have to answer for himself about the

filibuster. He has been reluctant to abolish the filibuster. But this is so utterly important for a nation. In Michigan, you know, the part of the bill package that was passed or that is being passed, and they are now going to take to the people as a voting measure. Which I don't think the people will buy, means that like local clerks can't pay for return postage. So it makes it -- it's just ridiculous how many steps are being put in the way (inaudible) --

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: Michigan politics, you know you're the former Governor.

GRANHOLM: Right, right, and I don't believe that Michigan citizens, if they're presented with a petition drive which is how well have to get around it, because there's no way that the Governor, Gretchen Whitmer would sign this package of bills.

They will have to take it to the people and do a petition drive and get over 300,000 signatures to be able to do it. But my guess is when it comes on the ballot citizens are not going to vote to make it harder for themselves to vote. It's just not going to happen.

LEMON: Yes. Secretary, thank you so much. I appreciate your time.

GRANHOLM: You bet, you bet thanks, Don.

LEMON (on camera): So Derek Chauvin is the one on trial, but if you listen to how George Floyd is being portrayed, you might think he is on trial instead of being the victim. Next, a view of the trial through the lens of American history and racial injustice towards black people and specifically, black men.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BENJAMIN CRUMP, ATTORNEY FOR THE FAMILY OF GEORGE FLOYD: They're going to blame everybody and everything except Derek Chauvin, and we can't be distracted by these innuendos and these allegations to try to distract us from what really happened.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

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LEMON: So Derek Chauvin's murder trial, an expert in police use of force testifying the ex-officer used deadly force by kneeling on George Floyd's neck when it was not necessary. Now, we all know, that we saw it on video, white police officer putting his weight on the neck of a black man, who was on the ground. Handcuffed and not resisting, that's when force should have ended, but it didn't.

For a black, man it is difficult to watch what happened because we have seen it time and time again. Black man abused at the hands of law enforcement and society. So I want to bring in now CNN political commentator, Bakari Sellers, and also Peniel Joseph, the professor of history of University of Texas at Austin. He's also the author of The Sword, the Shield, the revolutionary lives of Malcolm X and Martin Luther King Jr.

Gentlemen, it such a pleasure to have both of you on. Thank you so much. So, Peniel, let me start with you. I had this discussion, actually Chris and I were talking about it at I think it was breakfast the other day, we were talking about the Derek Chauvin trial, whether it should be the George Floyd trial.

You know, some people think it should be the George Floyd trial, because the people of George Floyd is also named and it brings more attention to it. But it is the Derek Chauvin trial, the defense today they kept trying to focus it on Floyd's drug use, trying to get a witness to say that he heard Floyd say that he ate too many drugs. Practically blaming the man who died. What does that say to you?

PENIEL JOSEPH, HISTORY PROFESSOR, UNIVERSITY OF TEXAS, DIRECTOR OF THE CENTER FOR THE STUDY OF RACE AND DEMOCRACY, LBJ SCHOOL (on camera): Well Don, we have a long history in America of turning victims into criminals. And we think about whether it's Walter Scott recently, whether we think about the death of Denzel Dowell on April 1st, 1967. Who really inspired the Black Panther Party to put out the Black Panther -- the first Black Panther newspaper in Richmond, California?

We think about the death of Fred Hampton, which is now in the news again, because of the great film Judas and the Black Messiah. There is a consistent pattern of police criminalizing certainly black bodies, black women and men with this idea of a black man being violent. Always being aggressive.

Rodney King, 30 years ago was beaten down, they said he was as strong as a bear. It took those four officers to beat him down. And this was before the verdict, the acquittal verdict in 1992. So, in some ways, we've seen this with Michael Brown, we've seen this with so many different black men whether it's in Tulsa Oklahoma or in South Carolina, or North Carolina or in Ferguson Missouri. Or even Freddy Gray, this idea that he had to be in Baltimore chain.

So, I think this is -- there is a long and consistent pattern here. I think what's different about this time is the outpouring of grief in the morning, because of George Floyd. This was day eight of the trial, but by day three we saw those six kids, the teenagers. The nine-year- old, we saw Genevieve, the EMT firefighter, who was just in tears.

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The MMA fighter, Derek who was just in tears over the loss of this black man, this human being. This six-foot-six gentle giant, this person who might have been battling drug addiction but just like whites who are battling opioid drug addiction are getting their problems medicalized, and getting some humanitarian treatment, he wasn't accorded that opportunity.

LEMON: Right on. JOSEPH: Black men in this country never get second chances, white

folks get 50 and hundreds of chances. And we all need those second chances. So there is a long history of doing this, and I think that Derek Chauvin defense is really this practiced defense of really criminalizing black bodies.

LEMON (on camera): Bakari, I want you to listen. This is one of the witnesses in which she had to say. She is underage, so she's off camera but listen, please.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNKNOWN: When I look at George Floyd, I look at my dad. I look at my brothers, I look at my cousins. My uncles, because they're all black. I have a black father, I have a black brother, I have black friends. And I look at that and I look at how that could have been one of them.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON (on camera): So listen, Peniel reference this just a moment ago but she broke down. She seen this happen before, we all have. And you know a lot of witnesses have actually broken down on the stand in this trial, consumed with guilt and trauma. People are just exhausted seeing this happen to black bodies, over and over.

BAKARI SELLERS, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR, FORMER HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES (on camera): People are exhausted, we have this addiction to kind of, you know, this Black Death porn in this country for lack of a better term. Where we see these images, we see these videos of black men being abused by police, over and over again. And the country can't, we can't divert our eyes.

Peniel was right though. And I'll add just one more layer of how we talk about criminality in the black body. You know, when you think about to (inaudible), he was 11 years old, I believe playing with a gun, a toy gun in the park. Alton Sterling was selling bootleg CDs.

LEMON: CDs.

SELLERS: Eric Garner was selling loose cigarette, Walter Scott had unpaid child support. George Floyd passed a counterfeit $20 bill that he didn't even know was counterfeit. None of these crimes are death penalty crimes, however they rise to that level when you have a black man in particular, interacting with law enforcement, you have to ask why.

You know, you ask an interesting question at the top in conversation you were having as you were having with Chris. And my response to that would be that we have to call it what it is. This is the trial of Derek Chauvin. And with the criminal defense attorney is trying to do, I am one, is try to put George Floyd on trial. And you're starting to see that clash, and he's attempting this age old outdated dogma which is this reasonable fear of the black man.

And whether or not it's the witnesses that he tried to make angry and aggressive last week when he was crossing them. Or whether or not it's George Floyd, he's trying to get in the jurors mind. That these black bodies are big, they're violent, they're hyper sexualized, their drug users, they cannot be contained unless I put my knee in their neck.

And so, that is what where we are watching on display, but even at the end of this trial this is something that my little boys (inaudible), is going to have to grew up and deal within this country that we love.

LEMON: Yeah, listen I love speaking to you guys and I think that one of the most important things said today, Peniel is when you said that when you have issues especially around opioid use and around heroin use in this country, people are -- if you're a white male, if you're a white person in this country it's medicalized. We must help our brothers and sisters, we must take the stigma off of it.

But when it's a black man, it's criminalized. And you know, his girlfriend spoke about the issues they were having, no one wants to have those issues. But how many people do you know every day in your job, who you walk by or what have you, may have a back issue or a leg issue or some sort of pain. Went to the doctor and got hook on opioids. OK, hook on opioids. It happens.

It's not a good thing, but have some empathy for everyone in this society, and not just the people who are like you. Gentlemen, I have to go, but I really appreciate you joining, we'll continue this conversation and we'll have you back, thanks so much, be well.

SELLERS: Thank you.

JOSEPH: Thank you.

LEMON: And by the way, you know, I talked about this. What Bakari mentioned about sort of the snuff films that we have, right?

[23:29:59]

These sort of killing porn that we have for black bodies in the news and what we should do with it. How we -- how much we should air and how much we shouldn't or if we shouldn't at all. It's in my new book. It's called "This is the Fire: What I Say to My Friends About Racism." It's out now. I hope you check it out. It will -- I believe that it will help facilitate these conversations.

So, they say it is people expressing their political opinions, right? But does this look like that to you? The revisionist history of coming out -- the conservative media that is coming out of conservative media versus what really went down on January 6th. We will talk about that, next.

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LEMON (on camera): Tonight, 10 Democratic members of the House who were inside the chamber when insurrectionists stormed the Capitol on January 6th joining a civil lawsuit against Donald Trump and Rudy Giuliani. The suit accuses the two men of conspiring with the Proud Boys and the Oath Keepers to incite the mob, but Trump and his staunch supporters in Congress and in the right-wing media increasingly downplaying the deadly violence, trying to whitewash the actions of the pro-Trump mob.

Here is CNN's chief media correspondent Brian Stelter.

(BEGIN VIDEO TAPE)

BRIAN STELTER, CNN CHIEF MEDIA CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Riot denialism is moving from bad to worse.

TUCKER CARLSON, FOX NEWS HOST: He meandered through the hallways.

STELTER (voice-over): Tucker Carlson downplaying January 6th, even putting the word insurrection in scare quotes and mocking people for taking it so seriously.

CARLSON: Anthony Griffith faces seven years in prison.

STELTER (voice-over): Carlson cherry picking from the federal probe and excusing this Oklahoma man's conduct without even mentioning the charges, in this case, disorderly conduct and entering a restricted building without lawful authority.

According to the top rated host on Fox News, the rioters were just there for a stroll. This is what Tucker is whitewashing.

UNKNOWN: Pull. Pull this way.

STELTER (voice-over): Yet here's how he framed the chaos.

CARLSON: When a group of sad disenfranchised people who have been left out of the modern economy show up at your office --

STELTER (voice-over): Wait. Let's hit pause there. This was not a group tour or a lobbying trip.

CROWD: Stop the steal! Stop the steal!

STELTER (voice-over): Here's what Carlson said the rioters are being prosecuted for.

CARLSON: Expressing their political opinions in public.

STELTER (voice-over): They are actually being prosecuted for everything from violent entry to assault to conspiracy. But right now, there is a concerted effort to bury the pro-Trump mob down the memory hole.

DONALD TRUMP, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA (voice- over): It was zero threat right from the start.

STELTER (voice-over): Former President Trump has led the revisionist history charge.

TRUMP (voice-over): Look, they went in. They shouldn't have done it. Some of them went in and they're hugging and kissing the police and the guards, you know.

STELTER (voice-over): Trump was condemned for those comments.

UNKNOWN: They are telling that lie so their political project can go on.

STELTER (voice-over): And it's becoming a conviction on the Trump-led right.

MARK STEYN, AUTHOR AND COMMENTATOR: Quote/unquote insurrection, domestic terror threat that doesn't actually exist.

STELTER (voice-over): Instead of backing the blue, they are bemoaning the scale of the riot inquiry, claiming that it is an overreaction and that other people are being let off easy.

CANDACE OWENS, AUTHOR, TALK SHOW HOST, POLITICAL COMMENTATOR, ACTIVIST: On a scale of one to Black Lives Matter, what happened in D.C. was virtually nothing.

STELTER (voice-over): It seems they want to be tough on crime except crimes committed by the MAGA tribe.

(END VIDEO TAPE)

LEMON (on camera): I mean, Brian, great reporting. It is unbelievable. Also here with me is counterterrorism analyst Philip Mudd. He is a former CIA counterterrorism official.

Brian, this is -- I mean, this has really gone off the rails. I've got to know why Fox does this. We're going to ask you about that right after this break.

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[23:40:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON (on camera): We're back now. Trump and his GOP allies in Congress along with -- yeah, thank you -- his supporters in the right- wing media trying to whitewash the deadly Capitol insurrection.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CARLSON: They didn't have guns but a lot of them had extremely dangerous ideas. They talk about the Constitution and something called their rights. Some of them made openly seditious claims. They insisted, for example, that the last election was not entirely fair.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON (on camera): Back with me now, Brian Stelter and Philip Mudd. OK, Brian, so here's a question. A steady stream of revisionism coming from Fox propaganda channel, how has this gotten so off the rails? Why are they doing this?

STELTER: What happened three months ago was shameful. It was seditious. It is too embarrassing to be real. It must be disproven. It must be shown to be not real. They have to come up with these narratives to dismiss reality, to deny the prosecutions to move on, because the reality is too painful to bear, Don.

Most Americans want these prosecutions. Most Americans want the truth to come out. Most Americans want to know how coordinated was this, how much of a conspiracy was there. That reality is too dark and ugly for the right-wing media, so they're trying to bury it.

LEMON: I mean, Phil, look, it did happen though. We saw it happen. Officers were attacked and beaten during the insurrection. One died. I mean, as someone who spent his life in law enforcement, what do you think when you hear this kind of whitewashing and denial?

PHILIP MUDD, CNN COUNTERTERRORISM ANALYST: Well, I wouldn't look at this in isolation, Don. In some ways, it didn't happen. I mean, I've spent 30 years, 35 years of my career watching extremism. Let me take you into a mindset that's pretty simple. Think back in high school. You had clicks of people in high school who thought somebody else was the other, that they were the in crowd.

I saw the same thing among extremists in my world, mostly Islamic extremists. They get inside a closed world and persuade each other that they are right and that the other is wrong. So fast forward to January 6, what do we see, Don? It is the same thing. It is not white supremacists.

[23:45:01]

MUDD: It is not simply people who favor Donald Trump. It is extremists like we've seen since the beginning of time. They get in a closed circle, persuade each other on the internet, for example, which is an accelerant in this case that they're right, and that's what you get at the end of the day, people who are in a closed click and can't get another idea inside their minds.

LEMON: Yeah. But I had a professor on who did the research on the people who were there. He said the bulk of the people there were just average citizens. They didn't belong to extremist group. They have somehow been co-opted into believing that this is real. Are you saying that's not so, Philip?

MUDD: You mentioned the word group. I'm not suggesting they all have to be part of a group. What I'm saying is when they're on a chat room or QAnon --

LEMON: Got it.

MUDD: -- or just reading propaganda, they could persuade each other that they're right. They don't have to be part of a group, Don. LEMON: Got it. Got it. Brian, here's the thing. It is working, though. Those viewers believe the big lie. They believe this revisionist --r revisionist history about the insurrection. That's the power of this kind of disinformation. It is dangerous. And I cannot believe that they're actually doing this. It is so dangerous, Brian.

STELTER: I think it is important that most people, if sane minds understand what is going on, when former President Trump releases these statements talking about the election being rigged, he is trying to make sure the big lie remains alive and well. He is trying to continue the whitelash.

This is something that some -- you know, I have always thought, Don, that was in the past. That was in January. It's over now. But it's not over in MAGA media. It is still alive to this day. John Boehner, his book coming out next week. He speaks out against this. He speaks out against mob violence. But where was he on January 6th? There's a lack of leadership in the Republican Party that's allowing this to fester.

LEMON: Again, I can't -- I can't believe how it is so dangerous and I cannot believe that they're doing it. I mean, it is sinful. Thank you so much. I appreciate both of you.

STELTER: Thanks.

MUDD: Thanks.

LEMON: Some colleges and universities are requiring vaccines before students can return. But a fight is brewing over having to provide proof. More, next.

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[23:50:00]

LEMON (on camera): As millions of Americans get their COVID vaccinations, a new social issue is popping up. Should those who are vaccinated present proof using a so-called vaccine passport to get -- to go to a restaurant or a theater or to get on a plane?

The Biden administration is saying there will not be a federal program like this and some state governors are now signing executive orders, banning vaccine passports.

Here's CNN's Randi Kaye.

(BEGIN VIDEO TAPE)

RANDI KAYE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): At Rocco's Tacos and Tequila Bar in Delray Beach, Florida, customers are returning, and with them, talk of so-called vaccine passports. Owner Rocco Mangel has been vaccinated and would like others to do the same. But he is not in favor of requiring it at his restaurants for staff and customers. For him, it's about freedom of choice.

ROCCO MANGEL, OWNER, ROCCO'S TACOS AND TEQUILA BAR: Requiring people to have a vaccination card to come into the restaurant or a vaccination app or a passport, I think, it infringes on their rights.

KAYE (voice-over): That tracks with Florida Governor Ron DeSantis's view. It's part of why he issued an executive order banning vaccine passports in the state of Florida. DeSantis has dismissed vaccine passports in the same way he did many other measures during the pandemic like mask mandates and lockdowns, all in the name of protecting rights, and in this case, privacy.

(On camera): Do you think you get more business or see more business if a vaccine was required here?

MANGEL: I think quite the opposite. If -- if we required it, that would be a perception of that we are trying to govern them.

KAYE (voice-over): DeSantis argues that vaccine passports reduce individual freedom and would create two classes of citizens based on vaccination.

(On camera): According to the executive order, businesses here in Florida are prohibited from requiring customers to provide documentation certifying a COVID-19 vaccination or post-transmission recovery in order to gain access to that business.

(Voice-over): DeSantis's order puts him at odds with those who believe they are included in the order and are planning for, or at least considering, requiring a vaccine passport like the Straz Center for the Performing Arts in Tampa.

JUDY LISI, CEO, STRAZ CENTER FOR THE PERFORMING ARTS: It's really critical to our reopening and eventually to get us to 100 percent capacity.

KAYE (voice-over): CEO Judy Lisi says she is surprised by and disappointed with the governor's decision.

LISI: If you think about mass gathering places like theaters and stadiums and arenas, we are sitting right next to each other. So, it becomes really important to have a vaccine program as an option for our -- for our guests and for our artists.

KAYE (voice-over): At Nova Southeastern University in Fort Lauderdale, proof of COVID-19 vaccination was going to be mandatory for staff and students come the fall semester. But when I alerted the university's CEO to the governor's executive order banning vaccine passports --

GEORGE HANBURY, PRESIDENT AND CEO, NOVA SOUTHEASTERN UNIVERSITY: I will change whatever is necessary to comply with the law and to the governor's executive order.

KAYE (voice-over): The popular South Beach Wine and Food Festival may also now have to change its plans to require proof of a vaccine or a negative COVID test to enter next month's event.

LEE BRIAN SCHRAGER, FOUNDER, SOUTH BEACH WINE AND FOOD FESTIVAL: We'll be constantly re-evaluating up until the last second. But for now, this is the plan we have in place and the plan that I hope stays in place.

[23:55:03]

KAYE (voice-over): Back at Rocco's Tacos, Rocco Mangel says he doesn't think a vaccine passport would make his restaurant any safer than it already is.

MANGEL: People make a choice and people need to make, hopefully, a choice that they are not going to put other people at risk.

KAYE (on camera): And Don, the concern is that banning these vaccine passports and the attitude against them could actually cause an increase in vaccine hesitancy. You may recall that poll from last month from NPR, PBS, and Marist showing that about 47 percent of the people who supported Donald Trump were against getting the vaccine.

So, there is concern that that attitude could delay or maybe even prevent us here in the U.S. from reaching herd immunity. So, as more and more Republicans here in Florida, we are seeing it with our governor and the governor in Texas, come out against these vaccine passports and make it a wedge issue with the Democrats, we could actually see a spike in vaccine hesitancy, Don.

(END VIDEO TAPE)

LEMON: Randi Kaye. Thank you, Randi. I appreciate your reporting.

And thank you, everyone, for watching. Our coverage continues.

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