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Don Lemon Tonight

Medical Expert Testifies George Floyd Died from Lack Of Oxygen, Not Health Condition or Drug Use; Charges Dropped Against Georgia Lawmaker; Don Lemon Interviewed Rep. Park Cannon (D-GA); Associate of GOP Rep. Matt Gaetz May Strike a Plea Deal in Federal Sex Trafficking Investigation; President Biden Unveils Executive Actions to Address Epidemic and Embarrassment of Gun Violence; Derek Chauvin Trial for the Death of George Floyd; Don Lemon Interviewed CNN's Brooke Baldwin About Her New Book. Aired 11p-12a ET

Aired April 08, 2021 - 23:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[23:00:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DON LEMON, CNN HOST: A big development that could spell bad news for GOP Congressman Matt Gaetz. His associate Joel Greenberg, a key figure in the sex trafficking investigation may strike a deal with federal prosecutors.

And the Daily Beast reports there are Venmo transaction that may link the congressman to a local official and then hours later, payments that add up to the same amount to three young women. Gaetz denies any wrongdoing.

Also tonight, President Joe Biden taking executive action on guns, trying to curb gun violence in America. And an expert medical witness for the prosecution in Derek Chauvin's murder trial testifying that George Floyd died from a lack of oxygen due to Chauvin kneeling on his neck and back. And the series of blows to the defense testifying that Floyd did not die because of pre-existing medical conditions or drug use.

And that's where we begin tonight, with CNN senior legal analyst Laura Coates and former captain of the Missouri State Highway Patrol Ron Johnson, who was tasked with restoring peace in Ferguson after Michael Brown's death. And we are so grateful to have both of you on, good evening.

Laura, I'm going to start with you. Today, we heard a renowned medical expert testify that even a perfectly healthy person with a knee on their back or their neck for that period of time would have died. You know, we're told that George, they were touching their own necks, that they were taking notes, doctors walked in -- that doctor walk them through George Floyd's final moments about how breathing works. How critical do you think this was for the prosecution?

LAURA COATES, CNN INTERNATIONAL LEGAL ANALYST: This was by far the most compelling testimony we've heard in this entire trial, and I'm including the very emotional testimony from the first week, from nine- year-olds, up to somebody over half a century older, from the police captain, lieutenant, the sergeants, all of those people.

Nobody expected this pulmonologist, if you don't know what a pulmonologist was before today, you certainly know it is now because he gave such instruction in a compelling persuasive way. He's a volunteer, he's not a paid expert. He has no essential you know, skin in the game here.

But what he did was actually illuminate an issue about the respiratory system, show the way that George Floyd had been reduced to trying to desperately gasp for air, using his finger, his knuckles, his shoulder, trying to elevate his own body, talking about even new dimensions we hadn't contemplated yet.

The idea of officers manipulating the hand cuffs to create a vise-like contraption with his own body and you also heard them systematically address and resolve and dismissed the defense statements about possible drug uses being an alternative explanation. The idea of how something else may have contributed to it.

The way he methodically laid out this case was so compelling, and as you mentioned, Don, jurors to his demonstrative exhibits were actually following along when he said things like touch your neck, look here, apply the pressure here, and see what it's like. That's exactly where you want to be if you are a prosecutor, that your jury is so engaged, that they are actually following the instructions of your witness

LEMON: It's hard to watch that video where you know, he's talking about what George Floyd was doing just to -- in order to get a few -- get some air into his body, into his lungs. Captain Johnson, officers can be heard on video telling Floyd that if he can talk, he can breathe. But this expert says that that is very dangerous and highly misleading. Is that something a police officer should know?

RET. CAPT. RON JOHNSON, FORMER INCIDENT COMMANDER IN FERGUSON MISSOURI: Yes, and I've never heard that in any training. So, when I heard that on the news, and people have asking me is that a part of training. It is not a part of training.

[23:05:06]

What I agree, today's testimony was so compelling, today's testimony was tough, but today's testimony validated things for all of us, for all of America, and I think today's testimony just like the other correspondent said, had everyone touching their neck and feeling a sense of hurt and pain.

LEMON: Captain, you know, this doctor described in chilling detail what happened in the final moments of George Floyd's life. We want to watch it now

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MARTIN TOBIN, PULMONOLOGY EXPERT: On the right image, you see his knuckle against the tire. And to most people, this doesn't look terribly significant, but to a physiologist, this is extraordinarily significant, because this tells you that he has used up his resources, and he's now literally trying to breathe with his fingers and knuckles. You can see that Mr. Floyd has his face rammed in to the street, because he's using his face here as to try and crank up his chest. He's actually using his forehead and his nose and his chin as a way of trying to help him get air into the right side of his chest.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: I mean, boy, former -- the former Philadelphia police commissioner Charles Ramsey was on earlier and he says that this testimony explain the critical signs of someone struggling to breathe should be used in future police officer training. What do you think of that?

TOBIN: I think it should, and I think any police department that has the ability to bring actual medical personnel like a doctor to explain that and not just a train and a trainer and a policeman, I think that we should bring a professional then that this doctor was compelling and bring someone in that can really drive home that point for what happened today. But I agree with Chief Ramsey. That need to be part of training and moving forward.

LEMON: Laura, I mean, this exposed so much about police training and in a way that some police officers, not all, behave when they are you know, when they are doing their jobs, or what should be their jobs. Doctor Tobin testified that fentanyl was not a factor in George Floyd's death. We also heard from a toxicologist today who said that the amount of drugs in Floyd's system relatively low. So, is the prosecution effectively breaking down what's likely to come from the defense next week?

COATES: This was one hell of a preemptive strike, it's exactly this. And make no mistake about it, what was described was torturous. We move beyond the first part of the prosecution's case, trying to determine whether there was a reasonable use of force, an excessive use of force, or deadly force that was now criminal assault.

And now we moved into the realm of whether or not this was a substantial causal factor in the death of George Floyd. And so the torturous explanation of this particular witness combined with the other testimony, talking about how this was not an idea of fentanyl overdose.

Remember, the jury is largely comprised, of course of layman, as we all are, aside from experts in the court of public opinion, or in the jury pool. And so a lot of the questions that are lingering about what is a fentanyl overdose look like, what is the physiology of the respiratory system. How would someone operate if they had drugs in their system?

This was a line that was used by Dr. Tobin to say that even a healthy person when asked about underlying conditions, even a healthy person who is subjected to what George Floyd was subjected to, would have died. And so you have this combination of all of this evidence leaning towards a substantial causal factor in the death.

But remember the order of witnesses here, Don. Who have we not heard from? The person who performed the autopsy. So, the order of witnesses is essentially creating the foundation for the jury to be informed before they're influenced by something that might be less than ideal for the prosecution or might be in line.

But the idea is now, they know what cardiac arrest is. They know what pulmonologist are able to tell about respiration, they know about the desperation of George Floyd, they know about fentanyl and what's impact would be, all before they even get to the autopsy. This is strategic.

LEMON: Thank you both, I appreciate your time.

Charges dropped against Georgia State Representative Park Cannon who was arrested and removed from the state capital last month. Cannon had been charged with felony obstruction and disrupting a general assembly session. She was looking at up to eight years in prison, all for knocking on the door.

On the other side of that door was Governor Brian Kemp, and a handful of Republican lawmakers signing into law an election and voting bill that's been called Jim Crow 2.0. Cannon says the fight continues, and she's urging all Americans to keep knocking. And she joins me now.

[23:10:08]

REP. PARK CANNON (D-GA): Hi, there.

LEMON: Representative Cannon, thank you so much. I appreciate you joining us. You are in a better spirit. It looks like the last time I spoke with you. Tell us how you're feeling after hearing that you won't be prosecuted.

CANNON: After two of the longest weeks of my life, now I'm free from the threat of eight years in prison for simply doing my job. This is something that many Americans understand the feeling of and so I really want to thank people for standing with me in solidarity, texting, calling, emailing, social media posting. It's really made a difference. I also want to thank the district attorney, Fani Willis, and her office. They did a thorough investigation. They looked at the facts, and they threw it out. So, it's time to keep going.

LEMON: Your attorneys saying that you will be pushing for charges of illegal use of force, illegal arrests, and illegal detention. He says all options are on the table. What's the ultimate outcome that you want?

CANNON: All options are on the table. We are still leaning into what happens when you have a lawmaker like myself who, for years, has been putting force, excessive use of force legislation, but been told in the public safety committee that it was to general, that it was too broad, that we couldn't change that law. I know what it feels like. So, today, I'm excited about the opportunity for us to bring some more justice to Georgia.

LEMON: Yes. So, I want to talk about it, because this has been in the news, and it's not specifically related to what happened to you, but it's the incident, it's what one of the officers has claimed about the incident. He was worried about January 6th, he said. That style of insurrection. What's your response to that?

CANNON: That's in the case that's already been dropped. Unfortunately, what they don't realize is that we understand this Jim Crow tactic. This is not new, this Georgia. So, if they want to continue to change the rules, or make it more difficult for people to vote in Georgia, we are going to stand up with one stroke of a pen. Brian Kemp, lynched millions of black voters, and they think they can get away with it.

No, this is a display of white privilege and white power, and instead of helping families during a pandemic, figure out how they can safely cast their ballot, they are taking away voting hours. I feel like it's important that all Georgians understand the law, because it's the law. We haven't changed the law yet, it is still current. So I want organizations statewide and national, to help us understand these laws before they come and acted and as they go into practice.

LEMON: So, Texas is looking like the next big battleground state. You know, it was Georgia now, it looks like Texas. But Republicans control all three branches of state government there just like they do in Georgia. So, without protecting voting rights on the national level, what can even be done at this point?

CANNON: This is a group of national lynch men who are proposing these pieces of legislation and enacting them into law. It is now the time that we lean and we keep knocking. We have seen what happened in Texas. People are struggling to even cope with another tragic shooting. Now they are going to have to be knocking on the Governor's door to make sure their rights are protected to vote.

Those people in or out, this is Jim Crow 2.0 and we are not going to give up. I truly want people to understand why I wanted to be in that room. I wanted to witness what they were doing, and we need a sea of witnesses in America on voting rights right now.

LEMON: You said earlier that Brian Kemp and others had lynched voters, black voters and then you said as a national lynch men group. Some people are going to take offense to that language, you know that, right?

CANNON: The most important thing to understand is that when you strangle the vote from black and brown families, you take away their abilities to determine the very people who will protect their voting rights. This is very serious. This is a call for all of us to understand it's time to be in the room, even as hard as it may seem.

Dr. Martin Luther King Jr., Congressman John Lewis, all of those who have come before us and who have personally sat with me and talked to me as family members to say it's the time now. There have to be more people who are willing to call this out and to address it. So, I knocked, and I encourage others to knock.

[23:15:04]

LEMON: Yes. Thank you, Representative Park Cannon. I appreciate it. CANNON: You too.

LEMON: Republican Congressman Matt Gaetz denying allegations of sex trafficking and an underage relationship, he is not backing down, though. Tonight, one of his Republican colleagues is calling for him to resign.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: There could be big problems tonight for Republican Congressman Matt Gaetz who's being investigated for allegations of sex trafficking and prostitution. A lawyer for his associate Joel Greenberg, a key figure in the investigations says Greenberg is likely to strike a deal and cooperate with federal prosecutors. So far Gaetz resisting calls to resign from Congress, where he learned quickly how to turn the spotlight on himself. Here's CNN's Sunlen Serfaty.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

REP. MATT GAETZ (R-FL): The left in America has incited far more political violence than the right.

SUNLEN SERFATY, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice over): Congressman Matt Gaetz, bombastic, antagonistic, unapologetic.

[23:20:05]

GAETZ: My fellow patriots, don't be shy, and don't be sorry.

SERFATY: The 38-year-old Republican from Florida has only been in Washington for four years, but his flair for drama has captured national attention.

GAETZ: We weren't elected by anybody.

SERFATY: Gaetz theatrical style.

GAETZ: Our citizens come first, sorry, not sorry.

SERFATY: Rooted in an upbringing once featured on the big screen.

GAETZ: Good afternoon, good evening, and goodnight.

SERFATY: Gaetz grew up in the house used to film the movie the Truman show.

GAETZ: And in the mid-90s, one days, some producer just shows up in a golf cart, and tells my mother that they want to make a movie in this house, starring Jim Carrey.

SERFATY: It is white picket house in Seaside, Florida.

GAETZ: This is the house I grew up in, and this was my bedroom during my formative years. And voila, love America.

SERFATY: His mother is partially paralyzed, after she suffered complications while pregnant with his sister and refused to terminate the pregnancy. It made an impression on a young Gaetz who later said that it contributed to his antiabortion stance when he entered politics.

GAETZ: So every chance I get to stand up for life, I will.

SERFATY: The Gaetz were wealthy and powerful in the community. His father Don Gaetz made a fortune over $25 million for a full profit hospice company. He eventually went into politics. Don Gaetz was elected to the Florida statehouse rising to become a power player in Florida politics.

DON GAETZ, FLORIDA STATE SENATE (R): He is the new America, he is the new Republican Party.

SERFATY: After graduating from William and Mary Law School, Matt worked as a lawyer in Florida for only a few years until a seat opened up in the Florida statehouse.

GAETZ: There is no cause in northwest Florida more worth fighting for than strengthening our military mission.

SERFATY: Matt leveraged his family name to easily win his first campaign in a special election to become a state representative in 2010.

GAETZ: I hope everyone's ready to cut some taxes today.

SERFATY: He served in the statehouse alongside his father for six years.

GAETZ: It is my privilege to introduce the president of the Florida Senate, a guy I know pretty well, the Senator from northwest Florida, Don Gaetz.

SERFATY: And took on the nickname Baby Gaetz among locals, and not to his father's early influence.

MICHAEL VAN SICKLER, SENIOR EDITOR, TAMPA BAY TIMES: He was in the statehouse. There was a cadres of young lawmakers at the time they got a lot of attention. There is a crowd there liked to stay out late and you know, have fun.

SERFATY: Political observers say it was in the statehouse where Gaetz started to showcase his flashy and effective political instincts.

VAN SICKLER: You get on the floor of the statehouse and we just speak in these spellbinding monologues.

SERFATY: It was then that Gaetz latched onto a tool that would help amplify his voice.

VAN SICKLER: His approach on Twitter definitely anticipated the Trump era.

SERFATY: In 2016, Gaetz ran again. This time, for a Florida Congressional seat and one.

UNKNOWN: Hi, Matt. How are you doing? Nice to see you. This is my mother. Nice to see you, go right in the middle here.

SERFATY: Came to Washington the next year.

DONALD TRUMP, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Congressman Matt Gaetz, come on up, Matt. A man I just watched last night on television. He was fantastic.

SERFATY: He quickly cozied up to then newly elected President Trump.

GAETZ: Mister President, its Matt Gaetz. I don't need anything, sir, just calling to tell you, you did a great job today, don't let these people get you down, we are going to keep fighting for you with all we got.

SERFATY: Becoming one of the president's chief defenders.

GAETZ: President Trump sometimes raises his voice and a raucous. He knows that's what it takes to raise an army of patriots who love America and will protect her.

SERFATY: And allies in Congress.

GAETZ: What we see in this impeachment is a kangaroo court and Chairman Schiff is acting like a malicious Captain Kangaroo.

SERFATY: On Capitol Hill, he has cultivated a reputation as a brazen provocateur with a pension for political stunts, focusing more on his personal brand than passing legislation.

GAETZ: We are going to try to figure out what's going on.

SERFATY: In 2019, leading a group of Republicans to storm a closed- door deposition that was happening during the impeachment proceedings.

GAETZ: We are going to go and see if we can get inside.

SERFATY: And causing a dustup with this tweet about Michael Cohen, seemingly threatening the president's former personal lawyer with the release of damaging personal information ahead of Cohen's Congressional testimony. After an uproar that he could have committed witness tampering, Gaetz issued a rare apology.

In March of last year, he wore a gas mask while voting on the floor of the U.S. House, mocking concern that was rising over the spread of COVID-19. And then just days later having to self-quarantine after coming into contact with someone who had tested positive for the virus.

[23:25:16]

GAETZ: Defeat Liz Cheney in this upcoming election.

SERFATY: This February, Gaetz went to battle against a fellow Republican, Congresswoman Liz Cheney, traveling to her home state to lead a rally against her after she voted to impeach former President Trump.

GAETZ: I've been here for about an hour, and I feel like I already know the place a lot better than a misguided representative Liz Cheney.

SERFATY: Last year, the congressman announced for the first time that he has a 19-year-old son, a Cuban immigrant that he says he's been parenting for years as a single dad.

GAETZ: I couldn't imagine him loving him anymore, if he was my own flesh and blood. I've raced him for the last six years, and he is just the most remarkable young man.

SERFATY: And announced his engagement this past December after proposing to his 26-year-old girlfriend at Mar-a-Lago.

And as he's fighting for his political life amid all of these allegations, tomorrow will be such a huge moment for him. He is keeping a long-standing speech at Trump's gulf property in Miami. Don?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: Sunlen, thank you so much, I appreciate that. President Biden revealing the steps that he's taking to curve gun violence, but he says it's not enough. Two parents whose daughter died in the Aurora Colorado movie theater shooting speaking up next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[23:30:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: So President Joe Biden addressing the surge in mass shootings and introducing executive actions to curve what he says is an embarrassment to the nation. But he says it is not all up to him.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Whether Congress acts or not, I'm going to use all the resources at my disposal as president to keep American people safe from gun violence. But there's much more that Congress can do to help that effort. And they can do it right now. They've offered plenty of thoughts and prayers, members of Congress. But they've passed not a single new federal law to reduce gun violence, enough prayers, time for some action.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: Time for action. I want to bring in now Sandy and Lonnie Phillips, the co-founders of Survivors Empowered. Their daughter was killed in 2012 in an Aurora theater shooting in Colorado. I'm so happy to see both of you. Thank you for joining. And let me say right up front. Man, you guys are out there fighting every single day and you've been fighting for years no. So, thank you for what you're doing.

I know that you were in touch with the White House, Sandy, about Biden's plan which includes -- let me show folks -- which includes restricting weapons known as ghost guns which can be built using parts and instructions purchased online. And you say his actions are a good start, but there needs to be some legislation involved.

SANDY PHILLIPS, CO-FOUNDER, SURVIVORS EMPOWERED: Absolutely. We know that executive actions only go so far. So we really need the American people to stand up. We know that they're on our side. The majority of gun owners are on our side.

So if they're Republican, they need to really be pushing on their GOP leaders. And if they're independents, they need to be pushing on both sides. And we already know where the Democrats stand on this, thankfully.

So, we've got some work to do. And, you know, it would be nice if we didn't have the filibuster standing in the way.

LEMON: Yeah. What do you think about that? Because Joe Manchin said that he -- you know, when it comes to -- especially when it comes to voting rights, but also, it's going -- it would also be applicable to gun legislation as well, that he doesn't want to get rid of the filibuster. He thinks that both sides need to work toward the middle. It is the fringes that are -- instead of fringe issue. I don't see sensible gun rights as a fringe issue.

LONNIE PHILLIPS, CO-FOUNDER, SURVIVORS EMPOWERED: It's not a fringe issue. Joe Manchin is a Republican and Democratic folly (ph). He is not our friend right now. He is one senator that is keeping us, and it looks like he is going to keep us from getting anything done. So, you know, it's like, it's all on him. And what is he doing? He's protecting himself.

LEMON: Hmm.

S. PHILLIPS: Instead of protecting the public.

LEMON: Sandy, I have to ask you. You know, in the break, we were chatting, and you talked to me briefly about what you say to some of the -- I'll quote/unquote -- new survivors, right? Can you share some of that with our audience? The concept, new survivors, is striking because we know that there are bound to be more.

S. PHILLIPS: Unfortunately, yes. In fact, we've already made contact with several of the survivors from the Boulder shooting in Colorado. And with what happened today, there is a lot of excitement and there should be. I mean, we have a president now who is finally standing up and saying what needs to be said and what needs to be done. That is wonderful news.

At the same time, we've got a long way to go. So I always tell them to stay positive and don't let up. This is the time to push even harder because there's so much that does need to be done and accomplished. And really, like today, when -- when President Biden talked about repealing (INAUDIBLE) and if that was the only thing that he could get done, that's what he would choose to get done. And we are in full agreement with him.

[23:34:58]

S. PHILLIPS: And we'll do anything we can to get that one item absolutely repealed, that one law repealed because it will make a world of difference.

LEMON: Well, we --

L. PHILLIPS: The things that he --

LEMON: Go on, Lonnie.

L. PHILLIPS: The things that he's already done under the pressure that he was clipped by the outgoing president, it's amazing. They talk about chewing gum and walking at the same time. Well, he has been chewing gum and walking on tight rope trying to get something done.

He gives Republicans every opportunity to do something. They won't budge an inch. We talked to Ted Cruz back when Jesse was killed. He is the same way. All I can think of is obstructionist.

LEMON: Hmm. Well, Lonnie and Sandy, keep up the fight, and we'll continue to have you on to discuss this. Let's see what happens now. We appreciate it.

S. PHILLIPS: Thank you, Don.

LEMON: Thank you very much.

S. PHILLIPS: We appreciate it and thank you for the invitation.

LEMON: Absolutely. Nearly two weeks of emotional draining testimony in the trial of the police officer accused of murder in the death of George Floyd. Eric Garner's mother weighs in after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[23:40:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: Very powerful testimony in the Derek Chauvin trial today. A medical witness laying out exactly what happened to George Floyd in devastating terms as he gasped for air in his final moments. George Floyd's killing sparked a massive nationwide protest for racial justice and equality that we saw last summer.

So joining me now to discuss is Gwen Carr, the mother of Eric Garner. You remember Eric Garner died after an NYPD officer used an illegal chokehold. She is also the author of "This Stops Today." We are honored to have you here. Good evening, Ms. Carr. Thank you for joining.

GWEN CARR, MOTHER OF ERIC GARNER: Good evening. Thanks for having me. I'm so, you know, elated that you would have me on your show.

LEMON: So, let's talk. Your son Eric Garner's killing sparked the first of the "I can't breathe" rallying cries for police reform and justice. What is it like for you to see another case, this time George Floyd playing out in court?

CARR: Well, I tell you. It is like an echo, an echo from the grave because the George Floyd case was so, so close in proximity to my son's case. They both said, I can't breathe. They both were put in chokeholds in different ways. And in both cases, the officer decided to take their life and wouldn't even give them the privilege of breathing.

LEMON: You warned early on that the defense would try to assassinate George Floyd's character. Today, a medical expert providing testimony blowing a hole in the defense's attempts to blame Floyd's death on drugs. Do you think that we're going to see justice in this case?

CARR: I'm really optimistic that we are going to see justice. I'm going to put it in the atmosphere that there will be justice. I'm not putting any negative energy in the atmosphere.

LEMON: I'm glad you're an optimistic person. I know you're looking at -- because -- you believe the country needs this, right?

CARR: Yes, the country does need a sigh of relief because there are so many cases where there is no justice served. There is no conviction. There is not even an inkling of accountability.

So now with this case, America is on trial. It is not just the officer on trial. So we want to see if America comes to grips and admit that there is a problem, because before we can solve a problem, we have to admit that there is a problem.

LEMON: Mm-hmm. You know, you appear in this new CNN original series, the people, the Klan, about a mother's fight for justice after the death of her child. I want to play a clip from the series. Here it is.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNKNOWN: That morning, one of my cousins called and said they believe it is Michael. It's him. That's all I could say, was it is him. I was just numb. I couldn't believe that this was happening to us. I looked outside my mom's door and it was people everywhere. I mean, everywhere in the neighborhood. They had come from far and near. My sister Cynthia Hamilton, she went to identify the body with my husband.

VIVIAN DAVIS FIGURES, ALABAMA STATE SENATOR: All he had done was left his mom's house that night to walk to the service station to buy a pack of cigarettes. Not knowing what was waiting for him. I can only imagine what Mrs. Donald went through.

(END VIDEO CLIP) LEMON: What connection do you see between Michael Donald's story and what happened to your son?

CARR: Well, I see several similarities. I see that that was a mother who had lost her son and was so hurt, as was with my son. But she was not willing to just let it be swept under the rug, because we can't let these things just get swept under the rug and we do nothing about it.

[23:44:57]

CARR: Yes, we are going to grief, we are going to cry, but then we still got to get up and we have to stand up, because if we don't, if we don't stand up for our children, no one will. And like her, she went against the biggest Klan organization -- the biggest racist organization in the land. And ultimately, she won.

And with me, I went up against the police department because they did not want to have a trial and they didn't do any indictments and said they weren't going any further. But I told them I was going further, and I did get a departmental trial. And that did get at least one officer fired, which I am after the other officers still as we speak. I have like a case going against them.

So, we as mothers, we will not stop. We will go the distance for our children no matter what it takes. We have to step out of the box sometimes. But it doesn't matter. You took our child. What else can you do to us? So, we are a light parallel, but we are alike.

LEMON: Mm-hmm. Gwen Carr, thank you. I appreciate you coming on. I appreciate your passion. Thank you so much.

CARR: Oh, thank you.

LEMON: Thank you. So make sure you tune in, the new CNN original series, The People Versus the Klan. It premiers with back-to-back episodes, Sunday at 9:00 Eastern right here on CNN. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[23:50:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: As you all know, I have written a book that has just come out. It's called "This is the Fire." It is based on my life experiences and how they relate to the world and the job that I do as a journalist.

Well, my colleague and friend, CNN's Brooke Baldwin, has done the exact same thing. Her new book is called "Huddle." Look at that picture. Gorgeous.

BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: Hmm.

(LAUGHTER) LEMON: "How Women Unlock Their Collective Power." As you can hear, in the background, Brooke joins me now. And you --

BALDWIN: Oh.

LEMON: -- you have seen us on the air together because we huddle --

BALDWIN: Oh.

LEMON: -- for --

BALDWIN: Lot of times with champagne.

LEMON: I know. Breaking news stories but we huddle on New Year's Eve, usually, and you see us. Hi, my friend. How are you holding up?

BALDWIN: Hi. Hello, my love. It is so nice to be on with you.

LEMON: I know. It's so weird we're not in the same studio, right?

BALDWIN: Super weird.

LEMON: I know.

BALDWIN: You're like three doors down probably. But we are being COVID safe. I get it.

LEMON: You know I got to talk to you. We are journalists. I want to talk to you about how your book relates to what happens -- what's happening currently. And that you said, among the women who inspired you for this book, one of them was Congresswoman Lucy McBath.

BALDWIN: Oh.

LEMON: The woman behind moms' demand action. And we covered so many shootings.

BALDWIN: Yes.

LEMON: Another one today. What are your thoughts?

BALDWIN: Yes. I mean, what -- every time for gun safety and specifically Moms Demand Action has done, essentially, they are the largest grassroots huddled in this country, 600 -- six million strong. And I first started by talking to Shannon Watts who started Moms in the wake of Sandy Hook. She went to her Facebook page. She was outraged as the rest of the world was and went to her 75-Facebook followers and started this.

And along came Lucy McBath, Black woman. Shannon is a white woman. It is so important to approach these women intersectional feminist perspective, this whole notion of huddling. And so, essentially, Lucy, now Congresswoman Lucy McBath, went to Shannon and said, hey, I really appreciate what you are doing with moms, but, you know, you're really only focusing on the suburban white schools. And, you know, gun violence touches everyone. It touches -- touched her son, Jordan, who was playing his music too loud in the parking lot and he -- he lost his life for it. And so, as a result, these two women, who come from very different backgrounds, came together, huddled. And now, look at what they are doing, especially given what continues to happen in this country with gun violence. They want change. They are demanding it.

LEMON: Speaking of some -- people who want change, people who are -- I call them revolutionaries. They are really fighting. Stacey Abrams, who also inspired you in part to write this book, she is part of your huddle now. When you look at what she has been able to accomplish with voting rights and -- and challenges ahead, when it comes to voting rights in this country, and you know, people trying to suppress the vote, which suppresses the vote for poor people, people of color, and a lot of women, right?

BALDWIN: Yep.

LEMON: So, a lot has been accomplished and -- and has been driven by women.

BALDWIN: Yes!

LEMON: And I think it's amazing that you highlight this. You spotlight all of these great things. Stacey Abrams is helping to change the country.

BALDWIN: Stacey Abrams is an OG huddler. Way back when she was the deputy city attorney in my hometown of Atlanta, Georgia and she saw a group of -- she referred to them as secretaries with all this brilliant, you know, legal knowledge that just weren't getting paid, she essentially said to the city, hey, we need to do something about this, and she huddled with these women to get them more training when she had access to power.

And then, of course, they had -- they got higher salaries. Cut to, she is the house minority leader in Georgia, and what do you have to do? You learn how to fundraise. And so, she has this sort of Jedi- fundraising skill.

And so, more recently, as we were all covering the election and you see how women, specifically Black women, really showed up to help flip Georgia and then of course the Senate runoffs in January, Stacey literally shared the wealth from all of her fundraising with a lot of other women, a lot of other women groups, women of color.

The narrative in our culture likes to pit women against one another. But, no, we need to be like the Stacey Abrams of the world and we need to huddle.

LEMON: You are one of the bravest people I know because you are leaving a comfortable spot. People love you.

BALDWIN: Hmm.

LEMON: And you are doing a brave thing.

[23:55:01]

LEMON: And you're going out to conquer the world and do different things. How are you feeling?

BALDWIN: I hope I am going to go. I hope I am going to conquer the world. Keep telling me that. I love you, Don Lemon. And, you know, we got to keep our huddle alive, baby, because --

LEMON: We will.

BALDWIN: -- I don't totally know what I am doing next. I just know that I have been so emboldened by all these various women who I have had the privilege of interviewing just even in my career at CNN and, of course, you know, in this book.

And I cannot be the bravest, boldest version of myself and hold space with these women. So I am off. I am doing my backflip off the high dive. I will be, you know, texting you every single New Year's Eve or maybe I will be like slinking in the background.

(LAUGHTER)

BALDWIN: We will have a little bit of fun still, you know.

(LAUGHTER)

BALDWIN: But I -- I got to do this thing. I got to go.

LEMON: Yeah. Listen, you know when it's time, and -- and it's your time. And so, I am -- I am really in awe of what you are doing. The book, I am so proud of you. I hope -- I hope you do gang busters. I love you. Congratulations.

BALDWIN: Thank you. Love you, Don.

LEMON: Go buy this book. It's called "Huddle: How Women Unlock Their Collective Power" and it's by the Brooke Baldwin.

BALDWIN: Thank you.

LEMON: Thank you, babe. And thank you for watching, everyone. Our coverage continues.

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