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Don Lemon Tonight

Rapper DMX Died at 50; Tucker Carlson Spreads Racist Theory; Congressman Matt Gaetz Gather His Allies for Support; Doctors Testified What Causes George Floyd's Death; ADL Calling Tucker Carlson to Resign; White People Don't Want to be Overtaken by Blacks. Aired 10-11p ET

Aired April 09, 2021 - 22:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[22:00:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CHRIS CUOMO, CNN HOST: Time for the big show, CNN Tonight, with its big star, D. Lemon.

DON LEMON, CNN HOST: Yes.

CUOMO: I didn't want to miss this for a couple of reasons. DMX, you know, of course I'm partial to him as a New Yorker, and part of the second phase of the greatness of hip-hop, you know, he came strong in the late 90s, everyone remembers this song, "X Going to Give to Ya." You know, I mean, he was a breakthrough artist. And he was only 50 years old.

LEMON: Fifty, yes.

CUOMO: And for him to die in a wave of reports of his struggles, long time with addiction, has to be mentioned. Because his legacy is rich, and I feel for his wife and his kids, and I wish them well.

LEMON: Yes.

CUOMO: And I just hope part of his legacy is to remind people that this sickness is killing us, it affects everyone, everywhere, no one is immune, and it is a life sentence.

LEMON: Yes.

CUOMO: And we just lost so much of our talent and greatness. People think it's just kids. It isn't. People have it their whole lives, they struggled with addiction, a lot of people get it in mid-life.

LEMON: This about what happened in Minneapolis, right?

CUOMO: Yes.

LEMON: We talk about George Floyd and what is girlfriend said about --

CUOMO: Yes. LEMON: -- about how they both had pain issues and then became addicted. You think about so many artists. I've been, you know, artists of all different genres of music who lost their lives and who struggle with addiction. Some of them we didn't even know. Do we know that Prince had an addiction issue?

CUOMO: I've never heard it.

LEMON: No, I never heard it.

CUOMO: I never heard it until we started doing stories about why he died.

LEMON: But so many people do. And that's the reason why, you know, we keep saying they need to do it. People needed to see the humanity of George -- they need to see the humanity of George Floyd. He's not a perfect person. But nobody is a perfect question.

The reason I was smiling when he said that is because it was I -- think I've never seen that picture of DMX with a Michael Jackson t- shirt on.

CUOMO: Yes.

LEMON: Which, speaking of addiction issues.

CUOMO: Yes.

LEMON: Michael Jackson as well, we lost him, we lost Whitney Houston. We lost a lot of different people. Janice Joplin. I mean, on and on and on.

CUOMO: And it's good, yes, Joplin and so many others. I mean, Jim Morrison, but it happens right now. You know, Kurt Cobain. His mental health.

LEMON: Yes.

CUOMO: Addiction is mental health, it is illness. And you know, because it's not a Black thing. OK? Addiction, you know, we've moved way past that.

LEMON: No.

CUOMO: You know, where people think, well it's really, it's an intercity thing. No. Suburbs get devoured. White communities are getting devoured.

LEMON: Well, that's where the issue started with opioids and with heroin was in the suburbs. That's when people --

CUOMO: Yes.

LEMON: That's when people said, wow, we need to do something about it. It is ravaging our suburbs which is filled with what? Not people of color, right? So, and then now, you know, and you know the whole criticism about what's the difference between now? When there was this crack scourge, this scourge of crack in the inner city. There is no different. Addiction is addiction is addiction as addiction as I've always said.

CUOMO: It's absolutely true.

LEMON: Yes.

CUOMO: I mean, all these things are different proxies, one for another.

LEMON: Yes.

CUOMO: But you know, if you want to play that game, it should be played.

LEMON: Yes.

CUOMO: Crack was designed for the poor.

LEMON: Yes.

CUOMO: It was high value. And that's why it worked well. You know, junkies have a perverse mentality. They hear about an overdose, that is the best marketing a dealer can hope for.

LEMON: Yes.

CUOMO: Because people want the most bank for the buck. Remember, this is a sickness.

LEMON: Yes.

CUOMO: What made it a suburban scourge was the medicine cabinet. People kept getting prescribed these things. The more money you have, the more prescription drugs you have. The first drug dealer for those kids in the suburbs is the medicine cabinet.

LEMON: Yes.

CUOMO: But while I want to remind people is Dark Man X a huge legacy that goes way behind his addiction. But I hope that when people remember DMX, Dark Man X, that it sheds light on the fact that we lose too much too soon from this.

LEMON: Yes. And here's what I'll say, my last thing I'll say. Fifty years old, way too young to die. And that's why I say live every moment and, you know, stop -- I just, I want people -- I want this whole depression and all of it to end. And addiction we have -- we have to be better. Live your life every single day matters. No moment is promised.

And as someone who's experienced sudden death in a family, I live my love now with urgency, within every moment, without, you know, being so offended by everything that happens.

[22:05:00]

I look at the bright side instead of the dark side. So, I'll just say that may he rest in peace. Fifty years old, way too long. Everybody, live your life, enjoy your family, hug them and tell them that you --

CUOMO: You love them. You love them the way I love you, D. Lemon. And I'll tell you what.

LEMON: I'll see you.

CUOMO: When I think about your sister, she gave you gifts her whole life.

LEMON: Yes.

CUOMO: But the gift of perspective she gave you is the legacy of her own blessing.

LEMON: Amazing.

CUOMO: That will never be out outweighed. I love you, brother. I'll see you soon.

LEMON: All right, have a great weekend.

This is CNN tonight. I'm Don Lemon.

We've got to talk about -- this is, I want you all to hear me, OK? We've got to talk about what is happening over on the propaganda network, the Fox propaganda network. And I don't really concern myself with what the other guys are doing.

But let me tell you why I'm doing this. Because this is the main streaming of white supremacist propaganda to your neighbors and your family members. And it's coming from Tucker Carlson who is promoting the so-called replacement theory -- theory is really too good a word for it -- it's a lie is what it is. The lie that liberal elites are plotting to replace white -- the white population with immigrants of color.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TUCKER CARLSON, HOST, FOX NEWS: Now I know that the left and all the little gatekeepers on Twitter become literally hysterical if you use the term replacement, if you suggest that the Democratic Party is trying to replace the current electorate, the voters now casting ballots, with new people, more obedient voters from the third world.

But they become hysterical because that's what's happening, actually. Let's just say, it's true. If this was happening in your house, if you were in 6th grade, for example, and without telling you, your parents adopted a bunch of new siblings, and gave them brand-new bikes and let them stay up later and helped them with their homework and give them twice the allowance that they gave you, you would say to your siblings, you know, I think we are being replaced by kids that our parents love more. And it would be kind of hard to argue against you because look at the

evidence. So, this matters on a bunch of different levels, but on the most basic level, it's a voting rights question.

In a democracy, one person equals one vote. If you change the population, you dilute the political power of the people who live there. So, every time they import a new voter, I become disenfranchised as a current voter. So, I don't understand why we don't understand this.

I mean, everyone wants to make a racial issue out of it. The white replacement here. No, no, no. This is a voting right. Question I have less political power because they are importing a brand-new electorate. Why should I sit back and take that? The power that I have as an American guaranteed at birth is one man, one vote. And they are diluting get. No, they're not allowed to do that. Why are we putting up with this?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: Diluting. First of all, I see, he's insisting -- diluting -- one person, one vote. Isn't it the whole argument about people getting rid of the Electoral College? That it dilutes a vote? I'm just saying. Is he suggesting that? What is he talking about?

A lot to talk there about diluting the political power of the current electorate, which is mostly white people. The white vote should not be diluted. That's what he's saying. He talks about voting rights, about one person, one vote. He is twisting those concepts for his own ends.

And what ends are those? The point is to fuel up the audience with a false sense of grievance. Grievance, outrage. To justify voter suppression based on anger and fear and lies and insecurity and racism.

You don't have to do that. You can win more votes in this country where you have better ideas and a better message. Unless you can harness hate and use your power to suppress others. Purify the vote, may be?

It's not the first time that we have heard this replacement B.S. Remember the far-right extremists and white supremacists who marched in Charlottesville?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CROWD: Jews will not replace us! Jews will not replace us! Jews will not replace us!

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: So, basically, they are saying, immigrants will not replace us! Immigrants will not! That's kind of what they are saying over there. Even though we are all immigrants. Many of us brought here against our will. But immigrants. A country of immigrants.

[22:10:03]

The Anti-Defamation League calling on Fox to fire Carlson and let's face it, there's zero chance of that, right? Not from the network that provided the big lie of nonexistent voter fraud, the big lie that led to the insurrection, the insurrection that Tucker Carlson lies about night after night after night, putting the word insurrection in quotes as if it did not happen. He knows what he's doing.

We also got news tonight on Congressman Matt Gaetz, the House ethics committee opening an investigation of Gaetz for a sleew of potential offenses while he faces a DOJ investigation to whether he violated sex trafficking laws.

So, what does he do? Well, he heads straight to Trump country at an event sponsored by women for America first. You have the group that organized the January 6th rally, right? Before the capital insurrection. The congressman tearing a page right out of the Trump playbook. Never explain, never apologize.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. MATT GAETZ (R-FL): This past week has been full of encouragement before President Trump, Marjorie Taylor Greene and Jim Jordan, to the MAGA nation that shows so much love. So, let me assure you, I have not yet begun to fight for the country I love and for the nation that I know benefits from America first principles.

I'm built for the battle, and I'm not going anywhere. These smears against me range from distortions of my personal life to wild -- and I mean wild -- conspiracy theories.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: So, let us remember, please, the investigation of Gaetz began under the Trump Justice Department and then A.G. Bill Barr. How far the party of Lincoln has fallen. You don't have to take my word for it, I want you to just listen to what the former Speaker of the House has to say about his own colleagues.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNKNOWN: You call some of these members political terrorists.

JOHN BOEHNER, FORMER U.S. SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE: Yes. Jim Jordan especially. My colleague from Ohio. I just never saw a guy who spent more time tearing things apart and never building anything, never putting anything together.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: Got a lot more to come on all of that tonight. And the trial of the ex-police officer who kneeled on George Floyd's neck for 9 and a half minutes. Nine minutes, 29 seconds. It may turn on what we heard today. One of the most highly anticipated witnesses of the whole trial, the doctor who performed the autopsy on George Floyd.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ANDREW BAKER, MEDICAL EXAMINER, HENNEPIN COUNTY, MINNESOTA: The law enforcement subdural restraint and the neck compression was just more than Mr. Floyd could take by virtue of that, those heart conditions.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: That was Dr. Andrew Baker going on to say Fentanyl did not kill George Floyd, neither did heart disease.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BAKER: Mr. Floyd's use of Fentanyl did not cause the subdural or neck restraint. His heart disease did not cause the subdural or the next restraint.

UNKNOWN: All right. So, these are -- items that may have contributed but weren't the direct cause?

BAKER: Correct.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: The defense trying to chip away at everything we've heard and seen, trying to raise just a tiny bit of doubt with every mention of pre-existing conditions or drugs, but the medical examiner makes it absolutely clear. None of that directly caused George Floyd's death.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JERRY BLACKWELL, PROSECUTING ATTORNEY: Those other contributing conditions are not conditions that you consider direct causes, is that true?

BAKER: They are not direct causes of Mr. Floyd's death, that's true. They are contributing clauses.

BLACKWELL: And in terms of manner of death, you found then, and do you stand by today, that the manner of death of Mr. Floyd was, as you would call it, homicide?

BAKER: Yes, I would still classify it as a homicide today.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: Think for a minute about what we all saw 9 minutes, 29 seconds of Derek Chauvin kneeling on George Floyd's neck, pressing him into the ground. You can't help but think about that as you hear about the autopsy photos of injuries to George Floyd's face, injuries that came as he was struggling to raise up off the ground enough to breathe, struggling to stay alive.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BAKER: These were specifically taken to illustrate the injuries that you see on the corner of his left eyebrow and on his left cheek. You can see the bruising and the abrasion, that's fancy medical lingo for the big scrape on the side of his forehead and you can see the scrape or the abrasion on the left side of his cheek.

BLACKWELL: Do you have an opinion as to how Mr. Floyd would have incurred these abrasions?

BAKER: Well, these are entirely consistent with the left side of his face being pinned against the asphalt or the road surface that he was on the night before.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: That coming on top of testimony from a forensic pathologist who was the former assistant medical examiner for Hennepin County.

[22:15:00]

And jurors were hanging on to every word, nearly all of them writing it down when she said she believes asphyxia or low oxygen was the primary mechanism of George Floyd's death and that he wouldn't have died if it hadn't been for police.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LINDA THOMAS, FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST: There's no evidence to suggest he would have died that night, except for the interactions with law enforcement.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: We've got a lot more to come on everything. Everything that happened in the courtroom today. But what we are hearing from Matt Gaetz tonight sounds a whole lot like a certain disgraced twice impeached one-term president. Big lies, conspiracy theories. How is that going to play with the House ethics committee or the DOJ?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GAETZ: I'm built for the battle, and I'm not going anywhere.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: So, the House ethics committee opening an investigation into GOP Congressman Matt Gaetz as federal investigators are looking into allegations of sex trafficking. Gaetz publicly downplaying the DOJ investigation but today hiring two high-powered New York lawyers to defend him. And tonight, striking a defiant tone in remarks to a conservative gathering at a Trump property in Florida.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

[22:20:03]

GAETZ: So, when you see the leaks and the lies and the falsehoods and the smears, when you see the anonymous sources and insiders forecasting my demise, know this -- they are aren't really coming for me, they're coming for you. I'm just in the way.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: Mark McKinnon is here, former adviser to George W. Bush and Senator John McCain. He's also the executive producer of The Circus on Showtime.

Mark, good evening. So much to talk about. I want to get to Gaetz, but I know that you heard, as we were talking at the break, you heard that Tucker Carlson soundbite that I played for the first time and your jaw dropped.

MARK MCKINNON, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, listen, I've known Tucker for a long time and I've watched him during his Fox News chapters. And I was stunned. You know, I mean you could tell me just about anything that Tucker would have said and I wouldn't be surprised. But that's shocking.

I mean, he's talking about diluting votes. I mean, he didn't -- he didn't hide that. He said that out loud that t immigrants and other people, people not white, are diluting white voters' votes. That -- how racist can you get? I mean, that goes back a couple hundred years.

I mean, he might as well be saying that immigrants and Black folk and people of color should be worth three-fifths of vote. That's basically what he's saying. It's shocking. Even for Tucker Carlson. Even for Fox News.

LEMON: Yes.

MCKINNON: Yes. He inherits the mail of Donald Trump and I wouldn't be surprised if that guy runs for president.

LEMON: Tucker Carlson?

MCKINNON: I wouldn't be -- you heard it here first.

LEMON: OK. Well, speaking of someone who we know has presidential aspirations and someone who is picking up the mail of Donald Trump, and we know that's Matt Gaetz. Denying any wrongdoing. He's saying it's all a smear, a conspiracy theory. It's a Trumpy tactic but can he pull it off?

MCKINNON: Well, here's the interesting thing. First of all, it's always a red flag when the first line of offense is someone says, well, you know, I never said I was a muck. The thing that, you know, I don't know what is or will be found to be the crime that Gaetz may or may not have committed, but I'll tell you one thing.

He should be, he should be found guilty of felony stupidity for paying women over a public Venmo account. And by the way, I just made by public Venmo account private. But you know, the thing, the point you made earlier that is really relevant here, Don, is that he's doing his usual thing, which is to say, fake news! Fake news! Fake news! But you know what's not fake. This investigation was started by the Justice Department under Donald Trump, the FBI under Donald Trump. So, this is a Trump initiated investigation against Matt Gaetz.

LEMON: And I have to say allegedly paying women. Because it hasn't been established.

MCKINNON: Allegedly paid.

LEMON: But listen --

MCKINNON: Well, paid women for something. We'll find out what it was.

LEMON: Yes.

MCKINNON: But to your point about what will it do to him? I'll bet in his district and among Trump supporters that unless he's actually convicted and behind bars, this will be a badge of honor for him.

LEMON: Wow! OK. Mark, more of what we heard tonight.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GAETZ: I may be a counseled man in some corners. I may even be a wanted man by the deep state. But I hear the millions of Americans who feel forgotten, counseled, ignored, marginalized, and targeted.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: He's joking about these things saying that he is being canceled, but he is facing a House investigation, a DOJ investigation. He could be in some serious trouble here.

MCKINNON: Well, listen, he's got, he's got legal exposure for sure. And the House ethics committee has got a pretty serious charges, and I'll just go through some of them. They are saying that he may have engaged in sexual misconduct and or illicit drug use.

Share inappropriate images or videos on the House floor, misused state identification records, converted campaign funds to personal use and or accepted a bribe improper gratuity or impermissible gift. All violations of House rules standard of conduct. So, let's just say he's guilty of them, guilty of them.

LEMON: Mark, this save America summit is hosted by women for America first. That's the same group that held the January 6th rally that turned into --

(CROSSTALK)

MCKINNON: How ironic is that, Don?

LEMON: Yes.

MCKINNON: I mean, that's where we saw the culmination of the big lie and now, we just see its perpetuation through people like Matt Gaetz. LEMON: Yes. But it's on a property owned by the former president who

failed to get a second turn, incited the insurrection. Loyalist like Matt Gaetz, Marjorie Taylor Greene are speakers there. Why is the GOP doubling down on -- all right, what did work?

MCKINNON: Well, there are the demographic cul-de-sac, and they don't have a broader vision or ideas for the future. They just think that they, they're going to try and look in the rearview mirror and repeat what Trump did. But all of that, in my view, all that's doing is digging the ditch dig, the deeper.

[22:25:04]

And you know, that's a -- they're clawing their way to the bottom, and I don't know how much further they can go. But listen, recent polling reflects the rip long range issue, Don, which is they may try and do this.

They're going to make a lot of noise in the Fox News ecosystem, but as of this week, when people are asked whether they identify with the Republican Party or the Democratic Party, people who identify with the Democratic Party by almost 10 points -- by 9 points more than they do Republicans.

That's a -- that's a pretty historic number. It's been a long time since it's been that much of a gap, and I think it's a long time before Republicans can make up that gap if they keep acting like they're acting.

LEMON: You mean diluting their own votes?

MCKINNON: Absolutely.

LEMON: Their own votes. It has nothing --

(CROSSTALK)

MCKINNON: Well, I mean, that tells you, that tells you just how desperate they are --

LEMON: Yes.

MCKINNON: -- when they are talking about their votes being diluted.

LEMON: Yes. Thank you, Mark. I appreciate it. Good to see you.

MCKINNON: They got to hang on with the few votes they had let, that's the only strategy they have left, it's a pretty desperate, it's pretty pathetic.

LEMON: Thank you. Enjoy the weekend. I'll see you soon.

MCKINNON: OK.

LEMON: Yes. Two weeks of devastating testimony in the Derek Chauvin trial and the Floyd family attorney says some of George Floyd's family could testify too. We will hear from one of those family members, next.

[22:30:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: One of most anticipated witnesses in the Derek Chauvin trial testifying the force used against George Floyd was more than what his body could take. The medical examiner who performed George Floyd's autopsy saying, that while heart disease and Fentanyl contributed to his death, they were not the main cause. He also stood by his decision that Floyd's death was a homicide.

So, joining me now is LaTonya Floyd, George Floyd's sister, and Ben Crump, an attorney for the Floyd family. Their other family members sitting there, we're going to speak with LaTonya.

Good evening, everyone. Thank you so much for joining us. I appreciate it.

LaTonya, we've heard from expert after expert testifying that your brother died because of force used against him. Eyewitnesses have described how they felt like they failed in trying to stop what happened. How everyone knew that they said this wasn't right. How do you feel about the prosecution's case so far? What the prosecution is how they're presenting this?

Can you hear me, LaTonya?

LATONYA FLOYD, GEORGE FLOYD'S SISTER: Well, (Inaudible) hear you, well, the prosecution in terms of Mr. Chauvin, most safely, not even belief, I think that they're doing an excellent job. And I think they (Inaudible) justice on this case. I'm 99.9 percent sure.

LEMON: That they are going to get justice.

FLOYD: Definitely.

LEMON: Yes.

FLOYD: Definitely.

LEMON: Have you, or anyone else there been ask to testify? Can you talk about that?

FLOYD: You know what, I'm just going to say no, but, like I said, my brilliant lawyer is on the phone, and you know, trust me, he is going to step in.

LEMON: Yes. Ben, has anyone there been asked to testify anything sitting there or any of the other family members?

BENJAMIN CRUMP, ATTORNEY FOR FLOYD FAMILY: Yes, they will have a family member testify to talk about George's life how we grew up and the pain that this cause his family.

LEMON: Ben, the defense asking today's witnesses about hypotheticals. Listen and then we'll talk.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ERIC NELSON, DEFENSE LAWYER: Let's assume you found Mr. Floyd dead in his residence, no police involvement, no drugs, right, the only thing you found would be these facts about his heart. What would you conclude to be the cause of death?

THOMAS: In that very narrow set of circumstances, I would probably conclude that the cause of death was his heart disease.

BAKER: Had Mr. Floyd been home alone in his locked residents with no evidence of trauma, and the only autopsy finding was that Fentanyl level then yes, I would certify his death is due to Fentanyl toxicity. Again, the interpretation of drug concentration is very is very context dependent.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: He is asking the jury to ignore everything that happened during those 9 and a half minutes. Are you worried that that strategy might work? I mean, he only needs to convince one jury, Ben.

CRUMP: But Don, we never take for granted that a police officer would be held accountable in America for killing a black person unjustly. But I agree with LaTonya. The evidence is overwhelming when you put it in context with this video.

The fact that all of those doctors when asked in context with the video said that this was a homicide, and it was because of a positional asphyxiation due or the manner that the police used excessive force while George Floyd was in that prone position, handcuffed, face down, saying I can't breathe, begging for his life.

And so, I believe the jury understood what the pulmonologist said yesterday when he asked him to admit (Ph) and talked about he could not breathe because of all that weight on his lungs. And so, it's ingenious, disingenuous when you hear this defense lawyers say, we want to just overlook all of that and we're all going to talk about the trace amount of drugs in his system.

LEMON: Yes. LaTonya, when you see the defense making it seem like your brother is on trial, how does that make you feel?

FLOYD: That pissed me off severely. It does. Because I mean, it brings pain to my heart. Because I do believe when my brother walked in that store and walked out, and Derek wouldn't put his knee on my brother's neck, he would still been driving around or walking around, you know.

[22:35:09]

But they had nothing to do with -- that's not -- it was his death. It wasn't his day to go. You know, OK, so he walks out the store, he comes out and he leaves, he goes and gets in the car. No, that's not going to happen. He died because Derek put his knee on my brother's neck for 9 minutes and 29 seconds. And he will, he will end up paying the cost with the justice that want to take place in that Minnesota courthouse, and I believe that with all my heart.

LEMON: Well, we thank you. Ben, we thank you. And we thank LaTonya who's there. Shasha (Ph). Where is Shasha?

UNKNOWN: Hi. She's the oldest.

LEMON: She's the oldest. And Tiffany, thank you all so much.

UNKNOWN: Yes.

LEMON: We appreciate you joining us, OK? You guys take care.

CRUMP: Thank you, Don.

UNKNOWN: Thank you.

LEMON: Thank you. Thank you.

Racism being spewed to millions of people on national television. A white supremacist theory that used to lurk online has gone mainstream. We'll explain.

[22:40:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: Fox host Tucker Carlson under fire and facing calls to resign for pushing a racist theory that's been favorite of white supremacist for years. The replacement theory. It is one that imagines that white people are being intentionally, replaced by third world immigrants to, quote, "dilute American voters."

The theory is complete nonsense of course, but in the interest of having an informed discussion on why, his comments are so toxic and dangerous. Here is a clip.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CARLSON: I know that the left, and all the little gatekeepers on Twitter become literally hysterical if you use the term replacement. If you suggest that the Democratic Party is trying to replace the current electorate, the voters now casting ballots, with new people, more obedient voters from the third world.

If you change the population, you dilute the political power of the people who live there. So, every time they import a new voter, I become disenfranchised as a current voter. So, I don't understand why you understand this. I mean, everyone is making a racial issue out of it, the, you know, white replacement there. No, no, no, this is a voting rights question.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: OK. Well let's discuss now with CNN senior political analyst, Kirsten Powers. Wow. Hi, Kirsten.

KIRSTEN POWERS, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Hi.

LEMON: So, break this down for us. Look, this theory is racist, its not factual, adding new citizens, it doesn't mean that anyone is being replaced. How damaging is this that he is spreading this to millions of people?

POWERS: It's extremely damaging. It's very dehumanizing the way he's speaking about, you know, immigrants from the third world being obedient, you know, is a very degrading way to speak about people.

I think the fact that he is talking about diluting, which is a very white supremacist type of word, right. It's this idea of purity, that they are somehow diluting our pure country. It's -- it's an ideology that has fueled mass shootings, so it's extraordinarily dangerous, extraordinarily irresponsible, and he knows exactly what he is doing.

LEMON: So, Jonathan Greenblatt, the CEO of the Anti-Defamation League is calling on Fox CEO, Suzanne Scott, to fire Carlson writing this. This is not legitimate political discourse. It is dangerous race baiting extreme rhetoric, and yet, unfortunately, it is the culmination of a pattern of increasingly divisive rhetoric used by Carlson over the past few years. Given his long record of race baiting, we believe it is time for Carlson to go.

You used to work at Fox and I'm guessing those chances are exactly zero to none.

POWERS: Yes. I would say there are zero. I will say the, I mean, I left there four years ago, I think. So, it is a bit of a different place, but it's a different place in the sense that it's even more unlikely that anything will happen for saying these kinds of things.

And look, I don't think it's a feature, it's not a bug, what he is doing. This is part -- this is meant to be said intentionally, it is meant to please his viewers, it is meant to make people angry, it's meant to upset liberals, it's meant to dehumanize immigrants. It's all of those things.

And I don't think that Fox News would even think for one second of firing him. It's just, I just don't think it would cross their mind. I don't even think it would cross their mind, frankly, to even censure it.

LEMON: Case in point, the network is not backing down what they said. They're even, they've been -- you know, they have even written it up. Right? Look, it's there on their web site on the Fox web site. How can -- how can they be OK with this?

POWERS: Because they think that they have made this turn where it feels like a lot of times in the past, they would take it up to the line. And now it's just completely over the line. It's the, you know, what we talk about saying the quiet part out loud. It's just, it's not even trying to pretend anymore.

And for him to sit there and act like, who, me? That they would suggest that I'm being racist when he's using white supremacist terminology and he knows that perfectly well? And even the idea that he is putting forth that it has something to do with voting rights?

It is true that Republicans have this idea that Democrats only want to have immigrants come into this country because they'll vote Democratic, but it is such a lack of imagination that you can't even consider the possibility that people actually think that this is good for the country.

[22:45:09]

And that we are a country of mostly immigrants, not everybody came here by their own accord. But a lot of people did, and they came as immigrants and that has been the history of our country. He can't even imagine that there are people who just think that we should have immigrants. There has to be some other nefarious reason.

LEMON: Well, listen, we know it's sort of this feedback loop, right, with the Republican Party, the Trumpers and Fox News. What does this say about the Republican Party conservatives in general that Carlson is pushing these fringe theories on a mainstream outlet? How far has a party shifted?

POWERS: Yes. They've -- it's -- they've just shifted right off the map. Look, I saw J.D. Vance who used to be considered as sort of sane Republican defending Tucker Carlson on Twitter, claiming people are just going after him because he's the only one that speaks the truth.

So, it is -- I do think that there is, Tucker is, in a way, tried to kind of become the new Trump. Because Donald Trump doesn't have access on a regular basis to the public anymore because he can't be on social media. And so, Tucker now is becoming that person.

I mean that's just, you know, I can't prove that but that's what it looks like. It looks like he is going to be the person who is going to be saying these things and he is going to be the person that people can go to for that, in the way that they used to get that from Donald Trump on a regular basis.

LEMON: And neither fix. Thank you, Kirsten.

POWERS: Yes.

LEMON: I appreciate it.

POWERS: Thank you.

LEMON: My next guest warns me this replacement theory was not only a big factor in the January 6th insurrection, but will lead to more violence in the future. I'm going to ask him what he thinks about what Tucker Carlson is spreading to millions, next.

[22:50:00]

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LEMON: Fox host Tucker Carlson facing calls to resign for pushing a fringe theory that white people are intentionally replaced by immigrants of color. A theory held by many of the rioters who stormed the capitol on January 6th.

That is according to the research of my next guest. So, joining me now if Professor Robert Pape from the University of Chicago. Professor, good evening. Thank you. Welcome back. I appreciate you joining.

ROBERT PAPE, POLITICAL SCIENCE PROFESSOR, UNIVERSITY OF CHICAGO: Thank you.

LEMON: This is exactly what we had been speaking about earlier in the week, about the great replacement theory. And you warned that it not only explains what happened at the capitol on January 6th, but it could lead to more volatility going forward. What do you have to say to Tucker Carlson espousing this theory to millions of people on Fox?

PAPE: This is probably the most dangerous language, the most dangerous rhetoric that we now have in the mainstream media. And I say that not simply based on a moral judgment, not based on a political judgment, but based on a judgment about its propensity to drive violence that comes out of two studies that we've just conducted at the University of Chicago. Project on security threats.

We've studied all 7 -- 377 of the insurrectionists who have been arrested for breaking into the capitol as of now. What we discovered we looked for all kinds of issues, economic issues, religious issues, distance to D.C., and what we discovered is the number one thing that is the characteristic of those 377 is that they come from counties across the United States in 44 states that are losing white population.

They are coming from the most diverse counties. And these are people who are middle class. These are not your typical skinheads we would normally think of as being poor or in their 20s coming and joining a fight club. These are folks in their 40s, in their 50s. These are business owners, CEOs.

We have a Trump State Department employee who is 42 years old. He is from Fairfax County. Fairfax voted 70 percent for Biden. But that still means there is hundreds of thousands of Trump supporters, and Fairfax was about 3 percent of its white population in 2015.

LEMON: Let me jump in here, because again, if you put up this map is from part of your work and it shows Florida. You are talking about people many of them live in or adjacent to counties where the population became less white.

My question is, were these once fringe voters that this become a bigger issue under the Trump administration?

PAPE: The issue here is that something that was on the fringe is now, not creeping into the mainstream, it's at the heart of our mainstream. And it's at the heart of the political violence that we see coming from the right. That's January 6th, study one.

The second study, Don, is that we did a survey of people today, just two weeks ago, a nationally representative survey by the National Opinion Research Council, the gold standard among surveys and polling agencies. And what we discovered is that 4 percent of all Americans, that's 10 million people, both believe the election was stolen in 2020, and, would go to and participate in a violent protest, much like the insurrection.

[22:55:00]

And what's the number one driver there? Again, the fear that the rights of minorities are outpacing the rights of whites. This is a completely separate study and points to the future. We have to be concerned about this problem. This must become a national priority to wrap our hands around at the national level, the level of state governors, and at the level of mayors who were on the front lines.

LEMON: And we will keep talking about this, your work, and we'll keep having you back. Thank you, professor. I appreciate it.

PAPE: Thank you. Thank you.

LEMON: The medical examiner who conducted George Floyd's autopsy taking the stand today. And we've got his testimony after this.

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