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Don Lemon Tonight

Live Coverage On The Fourth Night Of Protests, Unlawful Assembly Declared; Army Officer Sues Virginia Police After Traffic Stop; Judge Rules In Favor Of Ex-Buffalo Officer Who Says She Was Fired For Stopping A Colleague's Chokehold; Allegations Against Rep. Matt Gaetz Are Piling Up; President Biden Says Parts Of The U.S. Are Backsliding Into The Days Of Jim Crow. Aired 11p-12a ET

Aired April 14, 2021 - 23:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[23:00:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DON LEMON, CNN HOST (on camera): All right, here we go. Top of the hour, this is when the curfew kicks into effect, so we'll see what happens, taking effect right now as protesters are still out in the streets of Brooklyn Center, Minnesota. Fourth straight night, angry at police, at the shooting death of Daunte Wright, a 20-year-old black man during a traffic stop that happened on Sunday.

The former police officer, Kim Potter, who fired that deadly shot arrested today charged with second degree manslaughter. Tonight posting bail, getting released from custody. Potter's scheduled to make her first court appearance tomorrow afternoon.

So we want to get to the streets now of Brooklyn Center, Minnesota. There you see our Sara Sidner getting into position there. Sara, it is curfew time. What's up?

SARA SIDNER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (on camera): Yeah, the crowd is much smaller. We have seen some couple of people that had medical issues. They actually have medics that are out here the whole time that have crosses on them. They will pick people up. They have literally picked up a woman who looked like she had a seizure and took her out to the hospital.

We are also seeing people get injured with rubber bullets. We also -- remember earlier we showed there were some barricades and barriers that people had put up there, makeshift? Well, now they have moved them all the way up to the fence right in front of the police, and at times, you will see the entire crowd sort of go down on their knees to get behind some of those barriers that they have created.

They're pulling things like garbage cans and, you know, crates and using those almost a shields against some of the munitions that are being fired, the less than lethal munitions that are being fired. But I want to give you a look at the scene, if I can. Let's try to walk through a little bit to the other side.

Every now and then you're going to hear a pop that is a rubber bullet being fired, and every now and then you're going to hear a, you know, sort of a boom that is a flash bang, and then sometimes you'll hear fireworks as well. But let me just take you through because what we're seeing now is the police line coming up, just like they did last night and the night before that, they are coming ever closer slowly, methodically, but this is what I was talking about.

Remember I talked about the barrier that people are trying to protect themselves and trying to stay in place, this is new. This has just happened in the last five, 10 minutes where they have put up barriers knowing that that line of police can also fire not less than lethal munitions at them, and so folks are preparing for that here, clearly preparing to stay the course as long as they can, Don.

LEMON: All right, Sara, I want you to stick around just a little bit. Let's talk just for a minute before we bring in -- because I want to get some --

SIDNER: Sure.

LEMON: -- some analysis. But I just want to continue with you for a little bit to see because this curfew just took effect about almost three minutes ago and Sara Sidner is out in the thick of it. Sara, around this time and the previous nights we had seen police be a little bit more force -- well, maybe even a lot more forceful in pushing protesters back. Is it because of the size of the crowd, do you think, or do you think they have just sort of changed it up a little bit? Changed their tactics up slightly?

SIDNER: Look, the size of this crowd is so much smaller than yesterday, but they are very committed to staying where they're at. We did not see much of this yesterday where they brought their own makeshift barriers and shields, and so you can see people -- I just want to have you come over a little bit to the barrier.

You can see people kneeling down. You see them there kneeling down. That drum that is being hit is a Native American tribe has brought a drum, and they've been a part of this as well. Now, every now and then you're going to see a light flaring at us. That is an officer flaring their light at us, and flaring their light at anyone they see throwing anything over the fence trying to point them out because then after that, oftentimes you will hear a rubber bullet being fired towards that area.

But they're using their umbrellas as shields as well to shield the light, to shield people, but when they are spraying pepper spray, you will see it come through that fence and that stuff is extremely potent. It's sprayed there, but you can taste it, you know, hundreds of yards away. It stays in your system.

So some potent stuff out here, lots of people, though, staying put. There are several dozen people out here, but there were literally hundreds at this time last night, Don.

LEMON: Alright. Sara, I want you to stand by. I'm going to bring in now CNN's senior legal analyst Laura Coates, a former federal prosecutor. Laura, thanks for joining us this evening. We have a lot to talk about. This is the fourth night of protests in Brooklyn Center.

Curfew is now underway. You see what Sara is showing us there on the screen. So much anger and frustration on the streets. Is the city doing everything it can, do you think, to calm this unrest? What do you think of how they're handling this?

[23:05:07]

LAURA COATES, CNN INTERNATIONAL LEGAL ANALYST (on camera): Well, you know, part of the problem is that there is -- the reason that the George Floyd killing had such a visceral reaction is because it was so illustrative of so many other cases. And you're seeing again now, what's happened with Daunte Wright to be illustrative again.

And it also showcases this trust gap. This idea that people even when you have an officer who has resigned, even when you have an officer who is now charged, there is still this trust gap and a lot of skepticism about whether justice will prevail in the form of a criminal conviction.

And that seems to have eluded so many different officer involved cases. And so what you're seeing I think is in part that frustration. In other parts of course you're seeing people who are committing criminal acts. The looting we saw a couple of days ago, I do not equate that with people who are otherwise peacefully protesting and in reaction to those who have died.

But you do see for those who are peacefully protesting and are trying to ensure that there is justice surrounding the shooting and killing of Daunte Wright, you see that trust gap in motion. And it's very hard for any city, any municipality, any leadership to really erode in a day that skepticism.

LEMON: Laura, let's talk about this officer who shot Daunte Wright. She's been charged now with second degree manslaughter. Explain what that charge means and why the county attorney would decide on that versus a murder charge?

COATES: Well, you know, we have had a little bit of a lesson, some cliff notes with the Derek Chauvin trial, haven't we? Because he was also charged with second degree manslaughter in addition to other charges. The officer that shot and killed Philando Castile, (inaudible), the same thing. Of course, he was acquitted on that particular count, and we do not know what's going to happen with Derek Chauvin yet.

So, this is essentially a charge that says you are culpably negligent if you create an unreasonable risk and then you consciously disregard that risk to human life and do it anyway. It's different from intentionality, which is really a big buzz word in this particular field, because intentionality usually means premeditation of some form or that you intended to kill someone.

When you're talking about manslaughter, it's about the negligent aspect of what you've done, more than just ordinary negligence, it's also about recklessness. It's about appreciating a risk and being consciously aware of it. Now, when I look at this as a very, very quick turnaround of events from the time we saw the body cam footage, Don, to the time that we actually had resignations, the time that we've now had a charge.

So this indicates this could be an initial -- an initial charge. It may not necessarily be the ceiling. And of course, at this point in time, all we have to go on is the now resigned chief's statement that said this was an accident.

Now, that might or might not be true through the course of an investigation, so the prosecution is essentially securing that there is at least one charge that he or she believes that they can prove through the elements of this crime, but it doesn't necessarily mean that's where it stops.

LEMON: Yes. As I'm speaking with Laura Coates here our senior legal analyst here on CNN, and keeping an eye on the streets of Brooklyn Center, Minnesota, where a curfew is underway, curfews at the top of the hour, about eight minutes ago. So, we'll see what happens there, see if they comply or if there's any unrest.

Let's continue on with our conversation as we watch this. Also on that body cam footage, right, we hear this ex-officer now yell taser, taser, taser and then she grabbed her gun, which was holstered on her right side. The taser was on her left side, right? Because that's her weak side. Her right side is her dominant side, right, and they keep the actual handgun on their dominant side. So how will the jury -- what will they think about that? How will they react to that?

COATES: Well, let's go back to what happened at Fruitvale station with Oscar Grant when you had a number of changes made across different jurisdictions because you did not want to have this consequence again, this statement that someone could say it was an honest mistake.

And of course, that case has more nuances. We have more information about what happened there and more skepticism abounds in that instance, but here you're supposed to have an adept position that you have to make a conscious -- again, conscious effort to actually take the taser versus the service weapon.

This is not a rookie officer, though, so training in terms of the sort of muscle memory of it should already be there. They have to be reinstated in that their training every single year and have this review to the idea of how you try to prevent these accidents is to have these guns and tasers not look alike, not have the same weight, have qualitative differences such that accidental grabbing of one or the other will not occur.

And you remember, the video that we've seen, although it's a very quick sequence of events, you do have this gun visible, even while she's saying taser, taser, taser. So again, it goes back to the unreasonableness about this. Did you create an unreasonable risk, did you follow the training? Was it in the right place, and would the ordinarily prudent persons or terminology, the ordinary prudent person have made this mistake? That's when a jury would have to be reconciling in this moment. But remember, we are very far away from a trial jury.

[23:10:11]

LEMON: Yes, we're getting ahead of ourselves.

COATES: Yeah, we're more in the, are there plea discussions going on right now between this particular defendant and the Washington County attorney.

LEMON: All right. Laura Coates, thank you, I appreciate your time. Good to see you. I'll see you tomorrow.

COATES: Alright.

LEMON: Protesters taking to the streets now in Brooklyn Center night after night, outrage over the deadly police shooting of Daunte Wright. The latest in a long line of black men and women to die at the hands of police. I want to bring in now Cornel West. You know Cornel West, he's a professor of public -- philosophy, I should say -- excuse me, at Harvard University. Professor, how are you doing?

CORNEL WEST, PROFESSOR OF PUBLIC PHILOSOPHY HARVARD UNIVERISTY (on camera): My brother, my prayers are with the Wright family. My prayers are with the Floyd family, but we've got to remember what Mamie Till told us when she gave that funeral over her precious son, which is I don't have a minute to hate. I will pursue justice for the rest of my life. So the question is what does a genuine love for black people, a genuine care for black people look like in this situation.

And there's a number of different responses to that, but all of us have to come to terms, and we're not just talking about black folks, just as a human being who has a deep care and concern about a people who have been dealing with police, who have been out of control since the slave patrol. So we're talking about hundreds of years. There's thousands of black people who have been shot down by the police, male and female, children and grandchildren, we go right across Breonna and others, but what does the love of black people look like. This is the future question for me, my brother.

LEMON: So, as we're watching this phalanx of officers push protesters back and you mentioned, you said the history of policing, slave catching on up to now, is this a surprising culmination of events now that's taking place? Are you surprised by the protests? Obviously by the -- I'm surprised, and one should be, and saddened by the killings, but from the outcry coming from this and considering the history of this country when it comes to policing.

WEST: As a blues man and a Christian, I'm never surprised by evil. I'm never paralyzed by despair. I'm glad to see people in the street. I wish I could be there. My spirit is there with them. What does love require of us, some kind of witness, some kind of courageous engagement and therefore -- and like you pointed out, it's multiracial, right, because love spills over in that way, but it also takes us back to our history, brother Don.

You know you're from Louisiana, you remember the deacons for defense and justice, Ernest Thomas and Coretta Jackson and Robert Hicks and Frederick Douglass Kirkpatrick, you know, they were saying in order to be a self-respecting people, we have to be able to defend ourselves. We have to be able to protect our loved ones, and we ought to move towards some self-determination.

You know, that group actually provided the security for Martin Luther King Jr. on the Meredith March in Mississippi because they were trying to kill him. We love Martin. We got to protect him. Well, we love Daunte. We love Breonna, we love Brother George and so, so many others, you know what I mean? So that, the question becomes how do we work on the inside of a system -- because the system is a failure. We know that.

All investigations and so forth, they can spend months and months on that. It is failing black people. So the question becomes what is the response? Do we come up with our own forms of protecting each other? Do we generate mechanisms of accountability for police and others who are killing black people? We cannot just have conversations over and over again about this must stop. This must stop. No. We need more than that.

LEMON: Yeah. So let me ask you this because I think you're right about that. We see, you know, we've got Sara's camera up on the screen, and every once in a while you'll see Sara go in and out of the frame.

WEST: God bless her. Tell her to stay safe. She's right in the middle of it.

LEMON: Listen, Sara's the best. She's doing a great job, and we don't expect anything less from Sara. She's a fantastic correspondent. So we may have to jump if something happens, but let me just ask you a quick question here about the, well, this wouldn't happen if people would comply. What do you say to that? We don't live in a perfect country. We don't live in a perfect world, go on.

WEST: How many times have I complied and still got dragged off. I mean, good God, I mean, I'm a black man in a three-piece suit. I still get treated, not as bad as my brothers and sisters in the hood, but any black person can be terrorized and traumatized with police out of control.

[03:15:10]

So this notion that somehow if you comply, I tell them to get off the crack pipe and try to get some sympathy and sensitivity to their fellow human beings who are of color who are black. It is not just black, it's brown and indigenous people, but it's especially black, white supremacy targets black folk in that way. And we've got to come up with ways of protecting each other and defending each other. We can't allow this to go on and on and on. Some kind of accountability has to be in place.

LEMON: This distrust of police it didn't just come out of nowhere, there is a reason for it. There is a reason for it.

WEST: That's right. Absolutely. And the police who claim to be good but still silent when their partners are engaging in this kind of vicious arbitrary use of power against black folk, they are complicities too, and it spills over to the politicians who give us a little lip service but don't want to really send police to jail. Police need to go to jail after a trial.

LEMON: Professor.

WEST: I'm telling you.

LEMON: Professor West, thank you. We got to get to Sara. Thank you, sir, I'll see you soon.

WEST: I hear you, my bother. Stay strong though.

LEMON: Yep. Sara, alright, Sara take it away, what do you got?

SIDNER: Yep, sure, so what we have seen in the last few minutes are people running down this street because the police line has moved all the way up to the front of the precinct here in Brooklyn Center. That bright light you're seeing, that is the bright light of a police vehicle. It's high atop a vehicle to sort of get a clear view, it's almost daylight -- close enough to that, but a lot of the protesters, most of them have moved out.

You'll see the cars sort of spinning out of here and getting out of the way, but there are still a few people who are left who are challenging the police at this hour. We can also hear a helicopter above us that's got eyes on the scene, and there are folks that are on the top of the precinct that have also been eyes on the scene from a bird's eye view really.

But there are just a few people that are left here. You can still hear the sound of the Native American drum that is being hit, and a few people with shields standing very close to the police line. They've made no bones about it that they will arrest people now because we are now past the curfew, Don.

LEMON: How far have they pushed you guys back away from the police station?

SIDNER: We're several hundred yards away from the police station. We can still see that that light that you're seeing in the distance there, that is right near the police station or the police precinct, and so you're -- we are several hundred yards away inside of this neighborhood that is mostly apartment complexes where we are, and a lot of the people have pushed down this road, which is still clear and free.

But there are other roads that have been blocked off by police, so you can only go a couple of different ways, and some folks are taking their chance right now and getting out of here while others, a few, are still standing up and standing up against the police line that is still pushing forward, Don.

LEMON: All right, Sara Sidner has a handle on what's going. We'll keep an eye on her and the scene there, and we're going to continue on with our live coverage, live in the streets of Brooklyn Center, Minnesota, where protesters are furious over the deadly police shooting of Daunte Wright. We're going to take a quick break, and we'll be right back. Don't go anywhere.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[23:20:00]

LEMON (on camera): So protests for the fourth night in Brooklyn Center, Minnesota. There you go. You see the live pictures now. This is an aerial view from our affiliate KARE, and you can see police there on the scene trying to move those protesters off the streets. There was a curfew that went into effect about 23 minutes ago.

They're upset over the police killing of Daunte Wright. The ex-officer Kim Potter charged today with second degree manslaughter. Police violence against black people happening again and again. One family's dealt with multiple cases within their family alone. That is army Lieutenant Caron Nazario, pulled over in Windsor Virginia by police.

The officers draw their guns on him, they sprayed him with pepper spray and they push him to the ground. The chief of that department today calling this a learning experience for his officers but saying that he wishes the lieutenant had complied sooner with commands. So, I want to play some of the encounter again, but I've got to warn you, it is very disturbing.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNKNOWN: I didn't do anything. Don't do that.

UNKNOWN: Sir, get out of the car now.

UNKNOWN: Don't do that. Don't do that. I'm trying to talk to you.

UNKNOWN: Get out.

UNKNOWN: Get out. Just get out of the car.

UNKNOWN: Relax, can you please relax? Can you please relax?

UNKNOWN: Get out of the car right now.

UNKNOWN: This is not how you treat a -- I'm actively serving this country, and this is how you're going to treat me. I didn't do any --

Whoa, hold on. What's going -- hold on -- watch it.

UNKNOWN: Get out of the car.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

LEMON (on camera): Wow. Lieutenant Nazario is suing alleging the officers violated his constitutional rights. One of them, Officer Joe Gutierrez has been fired by the department. But again, this is not the only excessive force that this family has seen. They're related to Eric Garner who died after an officer used a chokehold in a stop that began over bootleg cigarettes. It was back in 2014.

So joining me now to discuss is Raquel Welch, she is the cousin of both Eric Garner and Lieutenant Nazario. Raquel, thank you so much for joining. I really appreciate it.

RAQUEL WELCH, COUSIN OF BOTH ERIC GARNER AND LIEUTENANT NAZARIO (on camera): Thank you, Don, for having me.

LEMON: Have you spoken to the lieutenant since this happened?

WELCH: Yes, I've spoken to him.

LEMON: How is he feeling?

[23:25:00]

WELCH: He's not well. You know, it's -- like anybody else is feeling, it's a lot of trauma. You know, my family has been hit with this tragedy yet again. He watched the first tragedy, so it's just not OK. And then, you know --

LEMON: Go on, sorry. There's a delay, go ahead and finish your thought. Sorry about that.

WELCH: Well then today, you know, you see the Windsor, I guess, police chief, you know, say he doesn't deserve an apology because he, you know, should have complied earlier. So it's just, you know, one thing after another.

LEMON: Yeah. What do you think -- every time I see that, and you know, them spraying, was that really necessary for what they pulled him over for and just -- what do you think when you see that video?

WELCH: I was mortified is just an understatement. I couldn't believe that they sprayed him with oc spray. I mean, what happened to the good old, you know, can I see your license, registration? Sir, we pulled you over because we couldn't see your license plate, you know, the normal routine stuff. They were at (inaudible) when they got out of the car. It was unbelievable.

LEMON: Yeah. So listen, let's talk about -- you said it happens over and over. I mean, you've got Eric Garner and then you have the lieutenant. I mean, what goes through -- what is your family dealing with right now? Like what are you guys thinking?

WELCH: Really, when is it going to end? You know, we keep -- when are they -- when is the narrative going to change? Is it ever going to end? You keep seeing it happen over and over and over again, and it's almost unbelievable. The police know that the relationships are sensitive. There's more awareness, but yet they still do it. They have body cameras and they just still do it. We just want to know is it ever going to stop.

LEMON: So, is it because of what happened with Eric Garner that you actually warned Lieutenant Nazario about how to interact with police? WELCH: You know, you have -- you start to have the conversations when

it hits closer to home, but he's like my nephew, you know. He's the same age as my daughter. He spent a lot of time with me, you know, growing up, so you just have those conversations.

Make sure, you know, when you see the police, you know, that you don't get them excited. You're always calm, you know, you don't create any problems, and then you see Eric and then it just keeps reminding you to keep having those same conversations with your kids, you know.

After the videotape of Eric, you know, it brought more awareness, the body cams came, started making a little -- even with the body cams, even with the videotape, you see George Floyd. The knee is in the camera for nine minutes and people are videotaping and he just didn't get up.

You know, he's videotaping -- his body cam into action with Caron and he's telling Caron, and Caron's saying what's going on and he responds while saying, you're going to hit (inaudible) like expect him to get out. Like, how do you get out knowing that somebody's going to possibly light you up with a bump.

LEMON: Yes. How do you feel about interacting with police after seeing two family members go through this? Obviously one fatal sadly.

WELCH: Well, I'm an officer myself, so it's unfortunate because I'm one of them, so you know, I'm kind of -- you know, I'm on both sides of the spectrum. So I just -- I'm a bureau chief, I impress upon my staff that they have to treat people with respect. If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem. That's why I'm super disturbed that --

LEMON: If you're an officer yourself, what is the problem? What is the problem, Raquel?

WELCH: I think -- I think the problem is that the black and brown -- the black and brown community is just not respected, and I think that we -- they're just not doing enough, and we get a lot -- we get a lot of arrests, but there's no convictions. I think that a lot of people are more part of the problem and not part of the -- if you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem.

So when Gutierrez is telling -- is acting the way he's acting to Caron and Crocker is not saying anything and then he gets to stay on the job because it's a training issue, that's part of -- he was part of the problem because he didn't stop the action, and I think that's -- some of it is training, but I think a lot of it is just racism from, you know, long ago.

LEMON: You think it's the attitude of the person personally?

WELCH: The police officers?

[23:30:00]

(CROSSTALK) LEMON: Yeah, is there certain kind of person who may be attracted to? Because as I am listening to -- whenever the -- limited interactions I've had with police and some -- listen, I've had some very good interactions with police, but some of the bad ones, it reminds me of military.

It's almost like, you know, drop down and give me 30. And it's like there's no human like, hey, I'm a law-abiding citizen. You're only pulling me over for a traffic stop. Do you have to speak to me that way? Do you have to -- must you interact with me in that manner? Is it an attitude that draws certain people to policing? Does that need to change, the recruiting? I don't know. You're an officer. You tell me.

WELCH: I think it's the attitude. There's a lot -- sometimes, the abuse -- people have an abuse of power. I think the training -- I think it is training. People have to change their attitudes. Yeah, I think it is how people deal with the public in general. I think it's that control. You know, I'm the officer, I'm the big person. You have to listen to me. You have to respect me or else --

LEMON: Mm-hmm.

WELCH: You know, like, do as I say, not as I do.

LEMON: Mm-hmm.

WELCH: So, it is definitely the attitude.

LEMON: And the racism as well.

WELCH: And the -- absolutely racism --

LEMON: Raquel --

WELCH: -- because they'll treat them different, yes.

LEMON: Thank you, Raquel. Be well. I'm sorry this happened to your family these many times.

WELCH: OK.

LEMON: Thank you very much. You be well.

WELCH: Thank you. You, too.

LEMON: So, as we know, this curfew is in effect for protesters still out on the streets in Brooklyn Center, Minnesota, that as a Black former Buffalo police officer who says that she was fired 15 years ago after stopping a fellow cop's chokehold on a suspect finally getting vindication. She's going to join me live next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[23:35:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) LEMON: OK, so, what is the responsibility of other police officers who intervene in an arrest like that of George Floyd where ex-officer Derek Chauvin kneeled on his neck to subdue him?

Former Buffalo, New York police Officer Cariol Horne, well, she has answers. Fifteen years ago, she forcibly stopped a white colleague from restraining a Black man in a chokehold, and she says that she was fired for it. Well, yesterday a judge overturned a previous ruling that had upheld her firing.

And Cariol Horne joins me now. I'm so happy that you're here. Thank you so much.

CARIOL HORNE, FIRED FROM BUFFALO POLICE AFTER STOPPING COLLEAGUE'S CHOKEHOLD: Thank you for having me.

LEMON: Let's talk about it. Fifteen years, you have been trying to get reinstated to get your pension. You have gone through multiple hearings. And now, you're vindicated after citing what happened to George Floyd. What had to change? I mean, multiple videos of brutality coming out. Is that what did it, do you think? What had to change here?

HORNE: What changed was the legal team that I have. They came along and they weren't -- they weren't going along to get along. And basically, they took my case pro bono.

LEMON: Mm-hmm.

HORNE: It was Ron Sullivan, Intisar Rabb, and attorneys from Kirkland & Ellis.

LEMON: What do you mean they weren't going along to get along? You mean that they were bulldogs or they were aggressive?

HORNE: They were -- they were smart.

LEMON: Mm-hmm.

HORNE: They were smart. And when I say they didn't go along to get along, what I mean is that back in '06 when I was even brought up on charges, it was the go along, get along game. And basically, even though I told the truth then, they didn't listen.

They let that officer choke a man and punch me in the face, promoted him. He choked another officer while on duty. And then he finally slammed the heads of four teenage boys on the trunk of the car, the police car. And then he went to jail. And he still got his pension.

LEMON: Wow!

HORNE: But I had to (INAUDIBLE). And although I had to fight, you know, during that time, although I had a lot of ups and downs, I wrote a law in 2016. I just didn't know how to get it passed. It's called Cariol's Law, which is the duty to intervene. But the way that it's written, I am -- it includes a national registry. LEMON: Mm-hmm.

HORNE: So although it was passed in September of 2020, it still needs to be amended to include the registry because if an officer leaves the Buffalo Police Department and they are horrible, why should they go to California?

LEMON: Right. That's a problem that officers who are being disciplined or fired or they had, you know, they had disciplinary issues and complaints and they would just go to another department.

I got to tell you, I read about your story. I think it was like a day or so ago in "The Washington Post." And then I read the -- I just saw The New York Times article. I've learned so much about you. You know, you had these serious ramifications when you intervened stopping your colleague's chokehold on that suspect.

What changes do you think have to be made within the department so that an officer feels comfortable intervening if they see an inappropriate use of force?

[23:39:58]

LEMON: Because my previous guest before, who was an officer, said that other officer should have intervened and said, hey, don't do that. So, what changes do you think need to be made, Cariol?

HORNE: Cariol's Law, that needs to be nationwide. It's -- it basically punishes an officer if they don't intervene. So, if you feel like you're going to break the law, then you won't break it or at least you shouldn't break it. If I was in a stolen car, they're going to lock all of us up for the stolen car.

LEMON: Mm-hmm.

HORNE: So, the thing with the incident like George Floyd, they all should have been charged with murder because everyone was there and nobody stopped it. So, we need to have a Cariol's Law in every state and we have a nationwide push for Cariol's Law. You can go to cariolslaw.com (ph) to get information on that.

LEMON: It's C-A-R-I-O-L. And listen, I've got to go because of the breaking news. I'm sorry about this. But if I can just get to this quickly, do you feel vindicated?

HORNE: It's getting there.

LEMON: It's going to take some time.

HORNE: If everyone is not vindicated, then I'm not vindicated.

LEMON: What do you mean by that, Cariol?

HORNE: I mean, just like you have to go for breaking news, stuff that is happening because accountability is not there.

LEMON: Mm-hmm. I appreciate you coming on. I'm happy that finally that you are getting there, as you say, and you can go to cariolslaw.com (ph), right, to get more information?

HORNE: Yes, sir.

LEMON: All right. Cariol Horne, thank you, ma'am. I really appreciate you joining us. You be well. You know how to get us if you need us.

HORNE: Thank you.

LEMON: Thanks.

HORNE: Thank you.

LEMON: GOP Congressman Matt Gaetz under more pressure. CNN spoke with two women who detailed drug use, sex, and payments after late night parties with Gaetz, allegedly, and others. What they say they saw, that's next.

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[23:45:00]

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LEMON: So the allegations against Florida Congressman Matt Gaetz are piling up. Two women are telling CNN about parties with Gaetz that they say allegedly included sex, drugs, and no cell phones allowed -- alleged parties, I should say. Gaetz and his associate, Joel Greenberg, sent hundreds of dollars to at least one woman who attended these parties, again, allegedly.

So, joining me now is CNN legal analyst Elie Honig. I just keep saying -- Elie, hi -- allegedly because I just want to make sure that we're covered on this. But listen, these two women who said that they attended these parties, they spoke with CNN, and they described drug use like cocaine and ecstasy, some people had sex there as well as a pattern of digital payments.

So, I mean, OK, Matt Gaetz likes to party, but what's the legal issue here? What are -- there are legal issues here?

ELIE HONIG, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Yeah, Don. So, the best indication we can get from this is looking at the charges against Joel Greenberg. So Joel Greenberg looks like he's going to be the cooperator here. He is charged with sex trafficking of a minor, meaning paying to transport someone under the age of 18 across the state line for the purpose of prostitution or other commercial sex act.

That is a very serious federal crime. It carries a 10-year mandatory minimum. It's one of the most serious penalties on the federal books, if proven. Also, potential drug charges, potential money laundering charges, again, based on the reporting. The more facts we get, though, the worse it looks for Matt Gaetz.

LEMON: What do you believe prosecutors are getting from him, from Joel Greenberg?

HONIG: Yeah. So, Joel Greenberg appears to be cooperating. Look, he is an unsavory character to say the least, but that's the nature of cooperating witnesses. As a prosecutor, when you get someone like Joel Greenberg, you're only going to cooperate him if, one, he can give you a serious target, and two, he is backed up by other evidence.

You're not just going to take Joel Greenberg's word as a prosecutor. You're going to say show me the receipts, literally. We know about that Venmo transaction. OK, that may support something Greenberg says. I'm going to say to Greenberg, what other financial transactions do you have? Did you ever text with Gaetz or anyone else? Did you ever e- mail?

And so you're not just going to take Joel Greenberg as a matter of faith. You're not going to sign him up as a cooperator until you're sure he's got the goods.

LEMON: Could it be bigger fish even Matt Gaetz -- than Matt Gaetz that we haven't heard about or we don't know about?

HONIG: For sure, Don. So, we don't know exactly who Joel Greenberg is giving the feds, but the deal is you have to give up everybody you know who you've ever committed a crime with. And generally speaking, when you're cooperating someone, Don, you want to go up the chain. You want to take a lower ranking player, a lower importance player and cooperate him against more serious targets.

LEMON: OK. There's a Politico report about allegedly that they seized Matt Gaetz's cellphone. Quickly, do you know anything about that?

HONIG: So you can get an awful lot of information from someone's cellphone. Usually, when the fed' sees the cellphone, they then do what is called the dump (ph), which is a forensic look into everything on their texts, e-mails, DMs, WhatsApp. And people think they can delete that stuff. It's usually still in there.

LEMON: Yeah. Elie Honig, thank you very much, sir. I appreciate it.

Amid calls for justice across the country, President Biden is addressing the republican assault on voting rights that hurts people of color.

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LEMON (on camera): Another Black man dead. Protests in the streets of -- for a fourth night in Brooklyn Center, Minnesota after the police killing of Daunte Wright. All that happening as the assault continues on the voting rights of people of color. President Joe Biden bluntly calling it a return to Jim Crow.

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JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: Parts of our country are backsliding into the days of Jim Crow.

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BIDEN: Passing laws that harken back to the era of poll taxes, when Black people were made to guess how many beans --how many jelly beans in a jar, or count the number of bubbles in a bar of soap before they could cast their ballot. This is -- was un-American then and it's un- American today.

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LEMON: He is right. It's un-American. What Black people are facing right now is not worthy of this country that we have fought to make more free and equal. The question is, what is America going to do about it?

Thanks for watching, everyone. Our coverage continues.

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