Return to Transcripts main page

Don Lemon Tonight

Officer Kim Potter Appeared in Court; Derek Chauvin Appeared to Say Nothing; Wright Family Want Full Accountability; Pat Robertson Calling Out Police Shootings; Rep. Val Demings (D-FL) Was Interviewed About What Congress Can do To Stop Police Shootings in America; Protesters Now in Their Fifth Straight Night; More Families in Pain; Communication, Training, and Rapport Works. Aired 10-11p ET

Aired April 15, 2021 - 22:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[22:00:00]

CHRIS CUOMO, CNN HOST: All right. I want to thank you for watching. Look, these are hard times. We all know that. And it's not because we're making them hard times, it's because we are in the question is what we decide to make them together. So, to pick up that question is the big show, CNN Tonight and its big star, D. Lemon.

DON LEMON, CNN HOST: This is tough, Chris, because, you know, not all police shootings are equal.

CUOMO: True.

LEMON: And when you -- it's really tough when you look at that video, if I'm a police officer out there, if I'm anyone out there and there's been a shooting, and some is running and you see that there's a -- regardless of the 13-year-old. 13-year-old's life gone, tragic.

But if someone is running with a gun and they turn around, police officers have to make decisions in split seconds. And that -- that's why I'm not a police officer because I couldn't face that kind of pressure and I just quite frankly don't believe that I could do the job. That's why I sit here on TV and analyze it and talk to people about it. I'm not sure I can make that decision.

But when you look at the video and you look at the instant, in an instant -- this officer, I mean, the officer probably doesn't know that the kid is 13, right? Which is that --

(CROSSTALK)

CUOMO: Not when he's chasing him.

LEMON: Not when he's chasing him.

CUOMO: And there was no description of the kids who were there, the 21-year-old and this kid. It was just that they saw them at the scene and had been identified as a shooting and then they ran, so they chased him.

LEMON: Yes. CUOMO: One kid was detained at the scene and we saw what happened with this one. Now, look, it's very important that you point out that not all shootings are the same.

LEMON: No.

CUOMO: They're all tragic. They all sicken you. And they sicken the people who are involved in the shootings also. This officer was there. He had to administer aid at the scene. He was visibly distressed. He had to get help himself afterwards. So, there is agony on many sides after these events. But this is not Derek Chauvin, and this is not --

LEMON: No.

CUOMO: -- analysis at this point. We don't even know if there is any legal aspect to this beyond the investigation. But the video helps us understand it in a way that if we had to go on just what people say --

LEMON: Yes.

CUOMO: -- I don't know how we ever made it through any of the calls.

LEMON: In any of it. Listen.

CUOMO: But look, here is what you know about the video. The kid is going to be analyzed in one of two ways by the investigators. Did the officer reasonably believe that when he said stop, stop, drop it, drop it, that the kid had something and he turned, or the kid listened to you. You saw him drop the gun, he turned, there was nothing in his hand.

LEMON: Even in that, though, Chris, even in that, how does one know? If you are -- if you are -- if you are a police officer, if you're anyone, if someone comes into your house and you're like drop the gun and they turn around, you don't know if they're following your command or you don't know if they're -- you understand what I'm saying?

CUOMO: Absolutely.

LEMON: So again, these are --

CUOMO: And you have .8 seconds to decide.

LEMON: And you have an instant to decide. But the only -- there are a couple things. I agree that it's tough. I understand why the officer is upset. The officer doesn't know that the kid is 13. He doesn't know he's 21. I don't -- the whole idea of, well, the kid should've been in school and it's a gang member, we don't need to go there at this point. There's no need to go there at this point.

And I understand that there are circumstances -- I used to live in Chicago. I know the dangers of Chicago streets. Here at CNN I did a thing on Chicago and guns a couple times on Chicago and guns and gang violence. You know, as I was out shooting, it got so dangerous that they had to pull us in and they said you guys need to go, you need to get out of here because you're in danger. And having worked there on the streets locally for years, I know the

dangers of Chicago and the problems that they face there intimately. But I just think at this point we cannot judge all police shootings; we cannot put them all in the same realm. They make split-second decisions and sometimes they are tragic, sometimes they are warranted, and sometimes they are not.

It is terrible that this is a 13-year-old boy and his family I know is suffering and the people who love him. But we have to see what happens. It's, look, I wouldn't want to be a police officer. I just would not want to be a police officer.

CUOMO: And you know what they'll say to you?

LEMON: What?

CUOMO: Yes, you would have when I joined, but not now. And then they will immediately say thanks to people like you.

LEMON: I don't think that's right. I don't believe that. I don't think that -- look --

(CROSSTALK)

CUOMO: I'm telling you that's what they say.

LEMON: I know that's what they say, but no one is -- no profession is beyond reproached. No, there is not one profession where it cannot be improved. I know that there are different circumstances for different professions. I did not sign up to go into danger as a police officer. I did sign up to go into danger possibly as if we have to go to war, if we have to go out there on the streets and cover it. But that is not in my job description. That is in a police officer's job description.

[22:05:00]

It's also to keep the peace. It is also part of their jobs to be able to make those split-second decisions and make the right decision. So, while we're saying, hey, I don't -- it's tough, I don't know what I would do, police officers are trained to do that. I'm not. The average person is not trained to do that.

CUOMO: That's right.

LEMON: So that's part of the job. So, police officers can say, you would have it because -- because they were able to do what they were -- whatever they wanted with impunity, we don't live in those times now and we should not have been living in those times.

And thank God for these things so that it can either exonerate a police officer or if they did something wrong, it can help to convict them.

(CROSSTALK) CUOMO: Well, let me tell you something. In this case, I think that body camera footage is going to wind up leading investigators to say that look, this is terrible, I wish it came out another war, I wish he hadn't shot --

LEMON: Yes.

CUOMO: -- but I understand why he did.

LEMON: Yes.

CUOMO: And if he hadn't had the body camera footage, I think that he would have been in a very difficult situation. I believe in it, I always have, transparency is always the key for people --

LEMON: Right.

CUOMO: -- who don't want to be set up and who want the truth to prevail. But I understand why Anthony Barksdale, who is on the show tonight, former acting commissioner in Baltimore, he says, hey, I've been in that situation. And when the guy turned around, there was no gun in his hand and when the guy turned around, there was a gun in his hand, and in both situations, I didn't shoot.

So just because the guy has a gun in his hand doesn't mean I'm going to shoot you because you're doing what I'm telling you to do. And so, he does not say you get a pass every time that there might be a chance that somebody has a gun.

And it is a right conversation to say, look, let's not go into the gang banging and all that stuff and the school. It doesn't matter, it's about what happens in that moment. True, except it does. And the head of the union said to me tonight what if it was a 40-year-old guy, we wouldn't be having this conversation, that's not fair. I said, well, maybe it isn't fair, but that it's a kid matters, and maybe if it was a guy who looked like the cop, he would have acted differently

LEMON: Yes.

CUOMO: And those are the kinds of conversations -- because it's not about being a bigot, it's about your conditioning, your mind-set.

LEMON: Yes. Well, no, it's about being a bigot.

CUOMO: It can be, but it doesn't have to be.

LEMON: Well, it doesn't have to be but it can be. But again, look, I don't think that it is time to tell -- look, you're a police officer. Let the experts make a decision about when people should be going into school and parents and what have you.

If you're -- if you're coming on to talk about what happened in a situation, talk about that situation, don't go beyond your expertise. And don't judge people for whatever. The kids aren't in school, whatever, we're in the middle of a deadly pandemic. Look, nobody -- I don't know. I'm not an expert. I can't tell you when

people should be coming back into the office here. You know, I certainly have an opinion about it, but I'm no expert about it, so I'm not going to go beyond my expertise.

And as far as, you know, the kid and he's got a tattoo or whatever, OK, sure, yes, 13-year-olds, Yes, they're involved in gangs sometimes. But we don't know that about this kid. Until we find that out, there's no need for him --

(CROSSTALK)

CUOMO: Well, let's say they're right.

LEMON: -- it doesn't help his case to come on television right now when it appears -- and quite frankly, I'll be honest. It appears that the officer probably -- probably made the right decision. He doesn't need to go that far. Don't over -- don't overplay your hand. That's all I'm saying.

CUOMO: Well, look, I would cover a little different.

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: I got to go, though. I got to go.

CUOMO: A totaldifferent. I wouldn't say the right decision. I would say that the decision he made will be found to be justified.

LEMON: Well, OK. Justified is the same thing. Same thing. And that's what I mean. I'm glad that we were having this conversation because this is what people are talking about, but everybody is afraid to have this conversation. Because they are, every -- you know, either you're for the police or you're against the police. Or whatever. And it's not that simple. Nothing is black and white. These situations are nuanced and you have to take every single one on its own merits.

CUOMO: I'm forgetting better.

LEMON: Yes. And forgetting -- we got to get better. So justified, you say justified, maybe you're right. I think in the end, I think that it may come out that way. It's probably --

(CROSSTALK)

CUOMO: I don't know if it was justified.

LEMON: But I don't know, I don't know.

CUOMO: I'm saying that it won't be that they say yes, you did the right thing here. It's that we get why you did it.

LEMON: The shooting was justified, yes.

CUOMO: And it was a reasonable judgment.

LEMON: But at this point it's got to be investigated --

CUOMO: Yes.

LEMON: -- and we've gone on a long time.

CUOMO: A lot of questions in this one.

LEMON: But I do love the conversation because this is the conversation everyone is hiring. And again, it's not so cut and dry every time someone is shot that, you know, the police to be vilified for it. Let's see what happened. These are tough decisions.

CUOMO: I got stopped on the street today and somebody said I know you haven't been telling Don you love him because times have been heavy, that was a mistake, --

LEMON: Yes.

CUOMO: -- and that's one you need to say because it's a reinforcement and they were right. I love you, Don Lemon.

LEMON: I love you, too. I'll see you soon. Thank you. I appreciate the conversation and the frankness.

This is CNN Tonight. I'm Don Lemon.

This is what everybody is -- this is how people talk. So, you know, hold your -- you wouldn't be doing this or this, or you're against the police officers. You're against -- no, none of that is true. Police officers have very tough jobs. Parents have very tough jobs. I'm not judging the family, the kid, none of it, nor the police in this situation.

[22:10:00]

But you got to look at that video tonight. There's new video and it's out of Chicago. It's a police body cam video. It's released showing this fatal shooting of this 13-year-old boy, his name is Adam Toledo. It happened on March 29th.

Now police say it shows that less than a second passed, less than one second. Now, imagine how quick that is. That's a second. From when the 13-year-old is seen holding a handgun until an officer fires a single fatal shot that hits him in the chest.

Now, this footage shows that the officer who fired the shot repeatedly shouting that he said at the young man, 13-year-old, to stop. And then he says show me your f-ing hands. And it shows Toledo with something in his right hand as the officer yells again for him to stop before firing his weapon once and hitting Adam Toledo in the chest.

Listen, I'm going on and on about this. Forget that, it's in the prompter. Play it so the people can see it as we're talking about it because they don't want to see my case. They want to see the video. There it is. Police say what is in Toledo's hand was a gun that was later recovered

from behind the fence. Now, you're looking at this body cam video right now. I should've warned you that it is very disturbing, it's very graphic. Is there sound on this or is it silent? OK. OK. The sound is coming. There it is.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNKNOWN: Stop. Stop.

UNKNOWN: Ten-01?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: So, there is a gun that they say was recovered. Officers responded and they responded to an alert of shots, right, fired on March 29th in this neighborhood, it's on Chicago's west side. Can we play that again? Let's listen to it. This is the part that's silent, when the sound kicks in I'm going to shut up. So, they're running down the alley. He's chasing the -- there it is.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNKNOWN: Stop! Stop right (muted) now! Hey, show me your (muted) hands. Stop it, stop it.

UNKNOWN: Ten-01.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: So, there it is. That's how fast it happens. That's the gun allegedly that the kid had, right? They say that he threw it away when he turned around. He's with the 21-year-old, and then he is 13.

Here is the thing. If you talk to law enforcement or anyone who has had any, you know, sort of relationship with what happens on the street or what can happen, we don't know in this situation. If you're a 21-year-old, you have a gun, you're going away. If you're a 13-year- old, you're a juvenile, maybe not. You hand it off. That's what -- that's what typically can happen.

I'm not sure that's what happened in this situation. It is allegedly that he handed it off to the 13-year-old. Those are the reasons why. People who were involved in that kind of thing, if you're older and you are of age, what do you do with a gun? You give it to someone who's underage and they don't face the time and you don't as well.

Now, the lawyer for the family is insisting that the 13-year-old complied with the officer's command in his final moments. Watch this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ADEENA WEISS-ORTIZ, TOLEDO FAMILY ATTORNEY: If he had a gun, he tossed it. The officer said show me your hands, he complied.

(END VIDEO CLIP) LEMON: So that has yet to be played out and we will see. There's still a lot of questions about exactly what happened in this case. We're going to go live to Chicago in just a moment. We'll go there live from someone who is been covering Chicago for quite some time. OK?

That is happening as we look live right now when things usually start to pop off in Minnesota in Brooklyn Center. We're hoping that does not happen, obviously. But you can hear and see the folks there on the street, fifth straight night of protests in the streets of Brooklyn Center, Minnesota, over the deadly police shooting of Daunte Wright.

Protesters in the streets, families are in mourning right now. Police all across the country preparing for the unrest that they feared that might come when there is a verdict in the Derek Chauvin trial, just a few miles away from the Daunte Wright -- where Daunte Wright was shot.

Daunte Wright's funeral planned for next Thursday. That, as the now ex-police officer who shot him, Kim Potter, charged with second-degree manslaughter, made a brief first court appearance by video today. There's a court sketch. But Daunte Wright's anguished mother says there will never be justice for his family.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KATIE WRIGHT, DAUNTE WRIGHT'S MOTHER: Everybody keeps saying justice, but unfortunately, there's never going to be justice for us. Justice isn't even a word to me. I do want accountability, 100 percent accountability, like my sister said, the highest accountability.

But even then, when that happens, if that even happens, we're still going to bury our son. We're still never going to be able to see our baby boy that we're never going to have again. So, when people say justice, I just shake my head.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[22:15:08]

LEMON: How can you hear her and not feel that mother's pain at losing her baby boy? Anyone would. Anybody would. And all these stories that we talk about in George Floyd, in Ahmaud Arbery, in Breonna Taylor, Daunte Wright, we want to -- we need to see people's humanity, regardless of what you think about them, and that's up to you. That's up to you, yourself, your God, whatever, whatever you think about.

We need to see each other's humanity. If you are a parent, if you are a human being and have a heart, how can you not feel for that mother? It makes you think of George Floyd in his last moments crying out for his mother while Derek Chauvin kneeled on his neck for 9 minutes, 29 seconds, squeezing the life out of him.

For the first time in almost three weeks of testimony, Chauvin spoke. We got to hear him. He spoke in court today to take the fifth.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DEREK CHAUVIN, FORMER POLICE OFFICER: I will invoke my fifth amendment privilege today.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: Closing arguments in the case set for Monday. Now you may think I'm preaching to the choir here, but this is how deep this goes, OK? So, you know Pat Robertson. You know Pat Robertson, televangelist, controversial figure. You can say Pat Robertson, yes, he's controversial. He's about as conservative as they come.

Here's Pat Robertson with an impassioned plea to end the police violence, Pat Robertson.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PAT ROBERTSON, TELEVANGELIST: I am pro-police, folks. I think we need the police. We need their service, and they do a good job. But if they don't stop this onslaught, they cannot do this. You know, the police in Virginia picked up a lieutenant in the army and began to give him trouble.

Our state police are highly trained, but why they stopped -- and this thing is going on in Minnesota. But Derek Chauvin, they ought to put him under the jail. He has caused so much trouble by kneeling on the death of George Floyd. It's just -- I mean, on his neck. It's just terrible what's happening, and the police, why don't they open their eyes to what their public relations are? They got to stop this stuff.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: Open their eyes. Pat Robertson. Now, listen. Pat Robertson is talking to police he's saying, but he's also should be talking to police are somehow justifying what happened to George Floyd and what happened in all these shootings. Should he be talking to the Evangelicals? Should he be talking to conservatives? Should he be talking to white folks?

Who should -- because he says police should open their eyes? Police aren't the only people who need to open their eyes. And that's why every night come here and I know it sounds like I'm preaching. We need to see each other's humanity because regardless of whatever color that person is on the ground, if there's a knee on the neck, and someone is squeezing the life out of him, you need to see their humanity.

If they are a 21-year-old who does something many 21-year-old young people doing that, make that, make wrong decisions, you need to see their humanity. Even if they're a 13-year-old, you believe they have a gun, still, that person has a family. See their humanity.

So Pat Robertson is saying, you know, police officers need to do -- a lot of people need to do it. It can't just be Black people who see that there is a problem here. I hope you listened to all of that.

We got a lot to do tonight because we got to get live to Chicago. These latest police shooting -- fatal shooting of a 13-year-old. We're going to go live there. We're also live on the ground in Brooklyn Center where protesters are out in the street for a fifth night after the shooting of Daunte Wright.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

NAISHA WRIGHT, DAUNTE WRIGHT'S AUNT: What is justice? Do we get to see Daunte's smile? We don't get to see that. Do we get to hear Daunte joke again? We don't get to hear that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[22:20:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: So, at the center of it all tonight two cities in this country, first one in Chicago. That's the latest one. It's on edge tonight. That city is on edge after police released body cam video showing a police officer fatally shooting a 13-year-old boy.

They say less than a second passed from when the 13-year-old, they say, is seen holding a handgun until the officer fired a single fatal shot that hit him in the chest. The lawyer for the boy's family disputing he had a gun in his hand in that last second.

Our Ryan Young is there right now in Chicago. Ryan, you've covered the city for a long time. You know it very well. Take us into this case. What happened? What do we know?

RYAN YOUNG, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, I will in just a second, Don. But I want to show you this because they are showing a breakup as we speak here. This is the protest that was walking through the city streets for the last hour and a half as these protesters wanted their voices heard for Adam. They have just decided to stop the protest for this evening. They are surrounded by police officers. They're in the middle of Michigan Avenue right now, so you understand how busy this street normally is.

Don, this video is gripping because, obviously, you have a 13-year-old who gets shot. Police say he had a gun in his hand. You also have to think about the officer who had to make a split-second decision when he thought or saw that gun in the hand. So, you think about he responded to a shots fired call. In fact, listen, watch the video and just watch it for yourself and then we'll talk about it on the other side.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNKNOWN: Stop! Stop right (muted) now! Hey, show me your (muted) hands. Stop it, stop it.

[22:25:02]

UNKNOWN: Ten-01.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

YOUNG: So, I want to be clear here, Don. They were responding to a shot fired call because their ShotSpotter technology all throughout the city -- so when gunshots are fired, police are able to respond quickly.

So, the officer knew he was responding to a call of a shots fired and then, of course, if you look at this video right here. This is a still frame from the Chicago Police Department. They say it identifies the gun that the officer was confronted with.

Now the folks in this crowd believe the young man was dropping the gun and was not turning toward the officer. But you're talking about this all happened in less than two seconds, so what else would officers be able to do in a moment's notice like this.

The people here right now are announcing plans for a demonstration tomorrow because there were thoughts that this would be a larger demonstration, but you can see how large or how small this crowd is right now. They believe the crowd could be larger tomorrow.

There are downtown businesses that have boarded up parts of their businesses to make sure that people couldn't break in like what happened over the summer. But that did not happen tonight. Everything has been peaceful. They have been surrounded by police officers as they've been walking down the street.

But obviously, a lot of conversations in a city full of gun violence about exactly what could have been done to stop this from ever happening. Don, this is a conversation we've been having for quite some time when it comes to gun violence here in the city.

LEMON: Yes. Just to get an idea. I got to run because I want to get to Brooklyn Center because the curfew is coming. But are you, where are you, on Grand Park, in Michigan Avenue?

YOUNG: So, here is right there as you can see, there's the bean, it's right over there on Michigan Avenue.

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: Yes, I figure, yes, I saw the monitors with the faces. Yes.

YOUNG: Yes, absolutely.

LEMON: OK. All right. Thank you, sir. We'll get back to you. Thank you, Ryan. I appreciate it.

Protesters are out on the streets of Brooklyn Center, Minnesota for a fifth straight night in a row -- for a fifth night in a row, I should say, angry over the fatal police shooting of 20-year-old Daunte Wright.

Let's go to CNN's Omar Jimenez. Omar, good evening to you. So, I want to know what you're seeing because usually about now there's a -- police are trying to get, you know, get them out of there, the protesters. The protesters are usually pretty adamant that they don't want to go. What's happening? OMAR JIMENEZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: That's right, Don. So, we're about a

half hour away from a curfew put in place by the mayor just a few moments ago. And I kind of want to show you what the scene is outside of the Brooklyn Center Police Department.

This is now a fifth night in a row. People want to make their presence known. You see the signs, all of them being held in the face of the officers on the other side of this fence here. Again, all in the name of Daunte Wright, the first demonstrations we saw were that Sunday afternoon. And they have been here every single night snow or shine as we have seen over the past few days in a row now.

They projected signs onto buildings saying justice for Daunte. So, when we talk about that approaching curfew and how these officers and law enforcement want them so much to get out of here, I don't think we are going to see that by the time we get to curfew.

They have stood in the face of law enforcement even as they have fired tear gas and flashbangs into the crowd. They have not backed down, even to the point of getting arrested. And we've seen dozens of arrests.

So, we're going to keep an eye on things as they unfold here tonight. But if anything over the last few nights is an indication of what we're going to, tensions are very high in the Minneapolis area here, and I don't think they're going anywhere anytime soon.

LEMON: All right. Thank you very much, Omar. We'll get back to you throughout the evening as we continue live here on CNN. Emotions run -- emotions are raw. Tensions are high in Minneapolis tonight. The ex- officer charge in Daunte Wright's killing appearing in court as the defense rests in the George Floyd trial. The attorney for the Wright and Floyd families is going to join me next.

[22:30:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: We're back now. And you can see the live pictures in Brooklyn Center, Minnesota. Tensions are running high there. That's where protesters are out in the streets with a curfew set to begin in just about a half hour, under a half hour now.

Daunte Wright's heartbroken mother saying today that her family will never get justice, she believes.

I want to bring in Ben Crump, an attorney for the Wright family. Ben, thank you for joining us. How are you doing? How are you holding up?

BENJAMIN CRUMP, ATTORNEY FOR FLOYD & WRIGHT FAMILY: Best we can, Don.

LEMON: Yes.

CRUMP: Still cannot believe that we're dealing with another killing of an unarmed Black man within 10 miles of where Derek Chauvin is on trial for killing George Floyd. LEMON: Yes.

CRUMP: It's just unbelievable.

LEMON: You know, it's been a painful week. Emotions are understandably running high as we're looking at these live pictures now for the protesters who are out there. I just want our viewers to hear Daunte Wright's aunt, Naisha Wright, at today's press conference. Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

WRIGHT: Can we get a conviction?

UNKNOWN: Can we?

WRIGHT: Can we get something? Manslaughter? You all see the difference. This is a taser. This is a taser. But no, my nephew was killed with this, a Glock.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: So, the former officer, Kim Potter, she made her first court appearance today. Do you think the family will see a conviction? Are you worried about a potential plea deal with this?

CRUMP: Don, you know, it's interesting because we have talked several times you and I over the years about the two justice systems that exist in America. And even though we're making progress, I want to thank all the protesters and all the young people and all the activists because I was with Michael Brown's mother, Eric Garner's mother, and Stephon Clark's mother yesterday. And in all those cases on video, none of them even got an arrest. So, we're making progress.

[22:35:00]

But, Don, in Minneapolis there was a Black police officer, Officer Noor, who killed a white woman, Justine Damond. He was very regrettable, didn't mean it. It was very highly questionable circumstances where there was a girl shooting that. They convicted him of third-degree murder, and he was sentenced to 12 and a half years in prison.

Now we have a white policewoman in the Minneapolis area shoot an unarmed Black man. She says I didn't mean it. It was an accident. She's charged with involuntary manslaughter where she can face between 14 years.

As Naisha and all of Daunte's family said, we want equal justice. We want for her to the full extent of the law, just like you did when the Black man killed a white person. That's all we're seeking, equal justice, Don Lemon.

LEMON: Well that's why I played that and asked. Because, you know, when I said the family, the mom said she doesn't believe that they'll get justice. And then you have Naisha, you know who is really just been quite honest with her feelings and is speaking out about how the family feels and to feel that they may not get justice is really, it's a sad statement on what's happening in this country right now.

I want to talk about the Chauvin trial now, if you will. Closing arguments are going to begin Monday.

CRUMP: Yes.

LEMON: Has a defense made any headway with jurors? Could this case really come down to carbon monoxide poisoning? It sounds ludicrous, but who knows?

CRUMP: It is very ludicrous, Don. The defense is making a desperate attempt to distract us. That's all it is. They're trying to throw stuff on the board and see what will stick. And I pray that the jury will focus like most of America has focused, even Pat Robertson, everybody said Derek Chauvin should be convicted and held to the full extent of the law.

This is going to be a tipping point, this verdict. Where have we come in our quest for equal justice in America? And Minneapolis will be ground zero with this Derek Chauvin verdict next week, and Daunte Wright's funeral.

And Naisha said something really profound to me, Don Lemon. She said, I don't know if Officer Potter has children, but if it was her child who got killed like she killed my nephew, what would America be demanding? That's exactly what we want for Daunte.

LEMON: Thank you so much, Ben. You know, when I heard that the whole thing about carbon monoxide -- I just thought it didn't make sense because why was he -- if they had let him off the ground sooner, then there would be no carbon monoxide, but let's just give them that.

There would be no carbon monoxide poisoning if they didn't have him on the ground for 9 minutes and 29 seconds or longer, or if they hadn't place him on the ground where he was. So, it just makes no sense.

Thank you, Ben. I appreciate it. Ben, when you say my full name like that, it just makes me think of every time I was in trouble and my dad would say, Don Lemon. Thank you, sir.

CRUMP: Don Lemon, we appreciate you always using your voice to help engage and educate and empower people in our community.

LEMON: Thank you, sir. I really appreciate it. You be well. Get some rest. I'll see you soon.

So, calls for policing reforms growing louder and louder in Congress after Daunte Wright's killing. What is going -- what is it going to take to get real change?

Well, Congresswoman Val Demings is here, spent 20 years in law enforcement. She joins me, the perfect person to talk about what's happening right now to guide us through this. She's next.

[22:40:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: In the aftermath of the fatal police shooting of Daunte Wright, there's a new sense of urgency among some lawmakers on Capitol Hill to overhaul laws surrounding policing in America. It's coupled with Derek Chauvin's murder trial in the death of George Floyd last year which sparked nationwide protests against systemic racial injustice in policing.

Joining me now is Representative Val Demings of Florida. She's a former police chief in Orlando. And we're so glad that you're here. As I said before the break, you're the perfect person to talk, so good evening. And thank you for joining.

REP. VAL DEMINGS (D-FL): Good to be with you.

LEMON: You had a 27-year career in policing. Aside from what can be done on the legislative side, what needs to happen within police departments to stop these deadly police shootings, Representative Demings? Speak to your experience here.

DEMINGS: Well, Don, it's good to be with you. And as you've indicated, I spent 27 years as a law enforcement officer, served at every rank, had the honor of serving as chief of police in Orlando. But Don, before I became a police officer, I worked as a social worker.

And so, when I went to the police department, I went to the police department committed to reducing crime and keeping people safe. But I also knew in order to do that most effectively, we also had to deal with some of the quality-of-life issues that many of our communities faced.

At the police department when I became the police chief, I focused on reduction of crime. But I also focused on doing my best to hire the best men and women who had the mind and the heart for the job.

[22:45:04]

You know, I used to tell the officers, we wear the badge over our hearts as a constant reminder that we have to have the heart for the job and we have to always remember, whether it's a victim, witness, or a suspect, that everybody belongs to somebody, and that we have to treat people with dignity and respect.

And so, it's been a tough time. We are grieving with the Wright family. We are grieving with the Toledo family. We're grieving with the Floyd family and have been for the last year. But I've also attended some police officers' funerals and we're grieving with their families.

We have a lot of work to do. Hiring is important. Who are we hiring? Do they have the mind and heart to do the job? Training, training is critical. We used to say we train today to win tomorrow. So, we must have extensive training.

You know, and we must remember that the majority of police departments in our country are smaller agencies. They do not have the same training budgets. They do not have the same equipment. And so, we always have to keep that in mind. And then we have to review our policies on a regular basis.

You know, a lot has changed. Technology has changed. There was once a time we didn't have body cameras. Now we have the technology that will help law -- officers to better be able to do their jobs, but also that can capture the true story, capture the facts. The cameras aren't biased and cameras don't lie.

And so, we have a lot of work to do. But you know, I've talked to the International Association of Chiefs of Police. I've talked to some sheriff's organizations. And what I've said to them, fix your own brokenness and be up front, transparent, fix your own brokenness because we all have a role to play.

LEMON: Yes. Listen, and, you know, you've written op-eds, you talk about all these issues, you talk about accountability. Let's discuss Brooklyn Center specifically because the mayor there acknowledged that there were few officers of color and none of them live in Brooklyn Center. Is that a problem?

Listen, I imagine it's tough. You said hiring. Recruiting is probably tough and that's going to be a big part of it.

DEMINGS: Yes.

LEMON: But speak to that. Very few people live there and very few officers are of color.

DEMINGS: You know, Don, one of the things I truly believe is that police departments should reflect the communities in which they serve. They should be diverse. And that diversity should be reflected in all ranked levels, which means we should have diversity. The decision- makers should be diverse.

I can tell you that recruiting is extremely difficult. It is difficult for law enforcement agencies to recruit many times within their own jurisdictions. It's always good. We've had some incentive programs to try to incentivize officers to live within their jurisdictions. It's tough.

Many times, it's more expensive to I live in certain areas and certain places. Many times, their families already have properties outside. But I do think, if you can recruit within the jurisdiction of authority, then you do that.

But I think diversity, Don, is so very, very important because diverse workforces understand the unique challenges that many of our communities faced, including our minority communities. And so, it's so important, I think, that the community sees a police department that looks like them.

LEMON: That reflects -- yes, that reflects back to them.

DEMINGS: That's right. LEMON: Reflects in the community. Representative, thank you. This is an ongoing conversation. We'd love to have you back. I hope that you will accept our offer when we call you back.

DEMINGS: Agreed.

LEMON: But you know, there's a lot going on, so our time is a little bit short tonight. Thank you, Representative Demings, best of luck to you and thank you for the good fight you put up every day, we appreciate it. And for your service. Thank you.

DEMINGS: Thank you.

LEMON: Thank you. The debate over how to reform policing has intensified, but one group we haven't heard a lot from, Republicans.

[22:50:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: So, what's the overall point in all of these? Well, protesters they want, they are demanding reform in policing. Especially in how police deal with Black Americans. But where are Republican lawmakers in all of this? And what can we do?

Let's discuss now with CNN senior commentator John Kasich, the former Republican governor of Ohio. Good evening, sir. Good to see you.

JOHN KASICH, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Hi, Don.

LEMON: And I'm going to give you the floor because you want to say something about what can be done.

KASICH: Well, Don, look. We have some terrible things happen out here culminating in the shooting of 12-year-old Tamir Rice.

LEMON: In Ohio.

KASICH: And a group of African -- in Ohio. African American women came to see me and said we need to study this. I said we're not going to study. We're going to start a task force. And the next day we announced it. And we had a collaborative that was made up of police, community, academics, people in the clergy. We had everybody involved, a few members of the legislature, public safety. And they put together a collaborative that came together with unanimous recommendations, training on the use of deadly force, the use of any force that officers need to be trained to those standards. They need to be adhered to them. That's the way it has to be. No question about it. Recruiting and hiring, what Val Demings just talked. It has to reflect the community, police in community, integrating the police in the community. The collection of data to make sure that there is no bias in terms of police work.

You see what's happening in the country is the training is not adequate. And I heard from somebody today that that officer that thought she pulled a taser and used a gun, what the officer said to me, or a law enforcement officer said to me, that's about training.

[22:55:04]

So, we need to have a standard. We have a standard in our state. And the governor that came after me, Mike DeWine, he's kept that collaborative in place so they can expand on it. What do you in mass demonstrations do so that we can train?

Every single state ought to adopt standards. But the most important thing we can do is get the training and for officers to understand exactly what the policy is. Not just on deadly force, the use of force and the training and the standards.

And Val said it earlier. Some of these small towns can't do it. In Ohio over 80 percent of the agencies in the state are training to a higher standard. That's what needs to be happening in the country, at each state. And frankly, they can do it in Washington.

And Don, I'd like you and I to say, we don't need to talk about this anymore. What we really need to do is act. Act now. And I think if we can call this out every single day, I think it's very important for police agencies to not to adopt this. We're not pointing the finger at the police. Although we're saying you got get better, you got to get trained, the community, you got to understand that. Community, you got to understand police officers.

We went right into it. And I think some of the reasons why communities aren't doing it, they wish it would all go away. Because when you get into it, you got to be -- you got to be challenging the police, you got to challenge the community, you got to get --

LEMON: Got it.

KASICH: -- to have everybody involved.

LEMON: Yes.

KASICH: And it worked here in Ohio and we should do it around the country.

LEMON: I don't disagree with you. And you know that I'll keep talking about it and I keep having you on to talk about it. We've got to get our lawmakers from Republicans, especially to get on board with the reform.

KASICH: Absolutely.

LEMON: I've got to run. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you, sir.

KASICH: All right.

LEMON: Good to see you. We'll talk more. So, listen.

KASICH: Thanks, Don.

LEMON: Thank you. Thank you. We got to get to Brooklyn Center because there's a curfew, the fifth night of protests for police killing of Daunte Wright. Live from the ground, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)