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Don Lemon Tonight
Shootings in America Becomes a Norm; Eight-year-old Kid Killed by Other Kids; Anger Against Police Rising; Daunte Wright Laid to Rest; Police Department Refuse to Release Body Cam Footage; Police Chiefs Laid Out Reforms in their Departments. Aired 10-11p ET
Aired April 22, 2021 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[22:00:00]
CHRIS CUOMO, CNN HOST: I wave hello to everybody. It's not a wave. He's the only no vote while 94 other lawmakers said yes. The bill creates a DOJ rule to expedite reviews of COVID-related hate crimes and establishes online reporting for them.
Right now, we have to rely on unofficial numbers. And these are probably undercounted. Hawley explains the bill turns the federal government into the speech police.
Let's bring in D. Lemon. Do you buy it, D. Lemon? Star of stars.
DON LEMON, CNN HOST: Do I buy what? What Josh Hawley says?
CUOMO: Yes.
LEMON: No. And what this shows me honestly is how insignificant Josh Hawley is. And I would rather not spend my time talking about someone who is insignificant and who does not believe in equity and equality for everyone. Obviously, there is an agenda behind what he is doing. He is an insurrectionist supporter, and he should be marginalized because he is not in line, it's obvious, and in lockstep with the majority of the American people want.
So, your overall point is good. We saw something that was bipartisan which rarely ever happens in Washington. I don't want to focus on the one -- I'm going to say whatever -- who did not go along with that. I think we should leave him to the margins and focus on the positive that happened. Josh Hawley, who cares? Nobody cares. He's insignificant.
CUOMO: Then stop talking about him.
LEMON: Yes. That's what I said.
(CROSSTALK)
CUOMO: let's talk about something else.
LEMON: that's what I said.
CUOMO: It took you like five minutes. LEMON: Well, because, you know, I just, again --
(CROSSTALK)
CUOMO: You said his name like six times.
LEMON: We should, but we should -- that's -- we should -- we should focus in this moment on the important things that are happening in this country. that is very important. And so, yes, we -- yes. And also, what happened with the shootings. What's going on with that?
That's really important that we discuss, and I think we had a very important and illuminating conversation last night that the whole country is having. And I think we should continue to have those conversations because it is what resonates with the American people, and it's what people want to see change.
And they also want to know how -- quite frankly, how to feel about it and what can be done about it and what their fellow Americans are saying and thinking about it. And I still stand by that. We cannot treat all police shootings in the same way. They are not --
(CROSSTALK)
CUOMO: You're absolutely right. We can't do that.
LEMON: They're 100 percent not equal, and that poor mom that you had on, I feel for her, but not every police shooting is the same, and we have to look at the evidence and what we know.
LEMON: No. And look, she's not here to be tested on the facts of the matter.
LEMON: Right.
CUOMO: It's to remember no matter what you see as justified or unjustified, there's a humanity at play. And I agree with everything you said except one thing. Everybody is not talking about it. that's why your book is the success that it is and continuing to be because a lot of people don't know how to have the conversation, or they are afraid to have the conversation, or they don't have somebody to have the conversation with.
LEMON: Yes.
CUOMO: And, you know, one, there -- you know, we assume in some of the more cosmopolitan places in this country that everybody has friends of all different races. Not true.
LEMON: Not true.
CUOMO: And a lot of times, people don't want to hear it. You know that Ma'Khia Bryant case, boy, does that make it easy for a lot of people to say, see?
LEMON: Yes. CUOMO: Now shut up.
LEMON: Yes.
CUOMO: But what they miss is the nuance of how it seems like there's only going to be one outcome when it's a person of color. Yes, bad facts in this one that stand up and say this shouldn't have happened.
LEMON: Yes.
CUOMO: But imagine if there hadn't been body camera video.
LEMON: Yes. Or there's also the video of the neighbor across the street, which they now have. And there is -- listen, I was talking about it with some people today. You know, we were -- I was at the gym, and they were talking about it, and they said, hey, Don, what if that had been a 40-year-old man?
CUOMO: What color?
LEMON: With a knife. It doesn't matter. A 40-year-old man who was about to stab someone. What do you think the response would be? And I said, well, I think it would be -- I think people would feel a lot differently about it because they would see a man attacking a woman, and they would say that the police officer needed to stop it in that instant.
But, you know, I just -- I don't think people understand quite frankly, just honestly, what the chaos and what rolling up on a scene like that is like and the seven -- I think it was like seven seconds, seven or nine seconds that the officer had to react.
It is tragic. It is terrible. But imagine if the woman in the pink was your loved one, and the officer didn't do what he did. You could be mourning the death of that woman, that young lady in the pink. And, again, I know that people say, well, he should have shot for the leg. that's not -- you had -- what is your -- what's the guy you had on with the glasses? I forget what you call him.
[22:05:01]
CUOMO: Anthony Barksdale.
LEMON: Barks. You call him Barks. that's not the training for police officers. Police officers are trained to neutralize the threat.
CUOMO: You do not pass leather, which is how they refer to it, you know.
LEMON: Yes.
CUOMO: Coming out of the holster.
LEMON: Yes.
CUOMO: If you are not planning to neutralize a threat. LEMON: Right.
CUOMO: And you must use equal or greater force.
LEMON: Yes. And --
(CROSSTALK)
CUOMO: So, they're not taking out that gun to do anything but put somebody down.
LEMON: Right and to neutralize the threat, which is, that's the training. I'm sorry. This is --
(CROSSTALK)
CUOMO: You could rethink the training.
LEMON: This is a reality -- 100 percent agree with that. And so that's the whole idea about figuring out what we do with police in this society and how police officers should be used and utilized. that's a whole other conversation. But as it stands now, that's what it is.
And people, you know, shoot in the leg. People don't stab people with their feet. They're stabbing with their arms and their upper body. So, their -- the officer is shooting to neutralize the threat. The threat is coming from where? Here. that's where the threat's -- and that's where he shoots, to stop the motion of where the knife is coming from. And, again, everyone's what about a taser? Tasers don't always work in these situations. Talk to Barksdale or anybody else.
CUOMO: Tasers don't always work. Full stop.
LEMON: They don't always work. Full stop. It's just not -- they're not efficient enough from that distance and that amount of time.
(CROSSTALK)
CUOMO: You don't even know if they even brought down the level of lethality and stops.
LEMON: Yes. So --
CUOMO: I just study --
LEMON: So, I get it. Listen, everyone is very emotional. I understand it. It is tragic. I just think about if that woman in pink was my loved one. What would I want an officer to do? And all the comparisons about this happened to Kyle Rittenhouse. that's apples and oranges.
It's -- yes, it is -- what happened to Kyle Rittenhouse was like what? How on earth did someone with a gun -- but that's a whole other show. that's a whole other story. And the video of the people that you were showing at the top of the show with police officers, those are people who were threatening police officers. The police officers trained. He is trained to get out of the way of a threat, of a knife or a gun. that's the training.
CUOMO: One of the cops was stabbed by a white guy --
LEMON: Right.
CUOMO: -- and then wound up tasing him.
LEMON: Yes.
CUOMO: Didn't even shoot him after he got stabbed by him.
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: Right. And so maybe -- maybe they should have -- they could have done it a different way, but, again, that's apples and oranges. If those people in the video that you showed, or in any of those other situations, are attacking someone in the moment, the police officer's actions, I believe, would be different in that moment because they would be trying to, one would hope, protect and serve the other life on that scene. Not someone attacking them. that's a different story.
They are trained to neutralize the threat even when it's on them. It's a whole different thing. They're not trying to stop the person who is going to stab or injure someone else in the videos that you show, and most of the situations that people are comparing it to.
It is different. You can get out of the way of a knife if you're a police officer and you're trained for it. But the individual, the layman, the average citizen is not trained in that. So, the officer's duty is to protect a life that is in imminent danger. that's it. I mean that's just the honest truth. I don't -- and I'm being objective about it. I don't want to see anybody die, especially Black lives right now, what we're dealing with.
CUOMO: The thing that the only -- look, this is not a great case to fight on the facts about how policing has to change because this use of force was wrong.
LEMON: This is not it.
CUOMO: I don't even know that the Chicago case is. But there are questions raised in this about how many shots and what's the protocol. The latest reporting is that the officer who shot Ma'Khia Bryant is a trained sniper from the military. that might explain why he had the confidence to take the shot in the first place --
LEMON: Yes.
CUOMO: -- because she was very close to the other person. But did he need four shots? Is that part of the training? She would talk about it? It's fine. What I'm saying is --
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: that's part. We should talk about that. CUOMO: -- the reason that the case still matters to people of color --
I'm not saying this to Don. I'm saying this to the audience. The reason that it still matters is they're just -- they never see good outcomes.
LEMON: that's true.
CUOMO: Whenever there's a problem and it's someone of color, they only seem to be hearing about it all the time with a bad outcome. And it's heartbreaking.
LEMON: Don't I know that?
CUOMO: Well, obviously. I'm not telling you this.
LEMON: Don't I know that?
CUOMO: You told me this.
LEMON: Yes.
CUOMO: Bu that's why it still matters to people. It's not as careful. It's not as easy as, didn't he see the knife?
LEMON: Yes.
CUOMO: It's not that simple. It's that where are the good outcomes? Where's the crazed Black person with a knife stabbing a cop and just getting tased? Where's the crazed Black person with a knife who cuts up their own family and the cops wait and talk them down and find a way to eventually have to get --
LEMON: Yes.
CUOMO: They want to see more of that, more of it going right. that's for people who are in the wrong.
LEMON: I got to tell you that's a little hyperbolic. I get what you're saying, but these situations are not comparable.
[22:10:02]
That has nothing to do with someone going after a cop. Again, a cop is trained to get out of the way of that. The average citizen is not. It's different. It's apples and oranges. It is not the same thing, and we have to stop comparing situations that aren't of equal value. that's it.
And we've got to be honest about these things, and if we're not honest about these things as journalists, then it is a dereliction of our duty as journalists. It's journalistic malpractice not to do it.
CUOMO: I heard some people were reporting on the incident without showing the knife.
LEMON: Yes, you got to -- you got to show all of it. CUOMO: that is malpractice.
LEMON: Yes. And again --
CUOMO: that is looking for trouble.
LEMON: It's tough.
CUOMO: And that's wrong.
LEMON: But this is where we are right now, and everyone is emotional. I understand it. But we have to do our due diligence, and we've got to -- we've got to talk about these things in a reasonable --
(CROSSTALK)
CUOMO: And we got to push transparency in every case.
LEMON: Yes.
CUOMO: If you didn't have body camera footage released right away with Ma'Khia Bryant, you would have had people on the streets.
LEMON: Yes.
CUOMO: This case that they just had where the man was shot in the serving of --
LEMON: In North Carolina.
CUOMO: -- of a warrant.
LEMON: Is that what you're talking about?
CUOMO: Yes. The people aren't releasing the body cam footage. that's a mistake.
LEMON: Yes.
CUOMO: If you don't have it, say it.
LEMON: They say they need a court order.
(CROSSTALK)
CUOMO: If it wasn't turned on, say it. They should not need a court order to release it.
LEMON: Well, we shall see with this. Listen, I've got to go. And let me say God rest her soul, Ma'Khia Bryant. And I feel, her family, I feel awful. It's a tragedy all the way around. Thank you, sir.
CUOMO: I love you, Don Lemon.
LEMON: I love you as well. I'll talk to you later.
This is CNN Tonight. I'm Don Lemon.
So, the trauma just -- as we've been talking about, just doesn't end, the trauma of shooting after shooting, video after video. Every time I warn you that they are graphic and they are disturbing, right? But there are just more and more of them, and I'm afraid that you're going to go numb. I'm afraid that you won't see it anymore. I'm afraid that you won't feel the pain of mothers and fathers and sisters and brothers and children losing another Black man or woman that they loved.
And the thing is, I can't say that I blame you, a verdict, a death, a funeral, mourning another young Black man, Daunte Wright's mother and father grieving their son, their baby boy.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KATIE WRIGHT, DAUNTE WRIGHT'S MOTHER: I never imagined that I'd be standing here. The roles should completely be reversed. My son should be burying me. My son had a smile that was worth a million dollars. When he walked in the room, he lit up the room. He was a brother, a jokester, and he was loved by so many. He's going to be so missed.
UNKNOWN: Take your time, Katie.
AUBREY WRIGHT, DAUNTE WRIGHT'S FATHER: I mean, I don't really speak much, but words can't even explain how I feel right now. You know, that was my son. I'm going -- man.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: How could you look at that, listen to them, and not feel something? They're burying their son, shot to death by a police officer who shouted taser, taser, burying him just two days after the police officer who murdered George Floyd, who kneeled on his neck for 9 minutes and 29 seconds, was found guilty.
Burying him two days after 16-year-old Ma'Khia Bryant was shot to death by a police officer after she lunged at another young woman with a knife. Burying him the day after Andrew Brown, Jr. Was shot and killed while deputies were serving a warrant, a warrant we're learning tonight, was for felony drug charges.
Authorities say that they can't release the body cam video without a court order, and I just want to be very clear about this. The facts in all these cases are very different, very different in every single case. And we need to know all the facts before we can know what happened.
But all this is very traumatic, hearing the stories, looking at the videos. It makes us go through the trauma again and again and again. And I write about it in my book "This is the Fire: What I Say To My Friends About Racism." And I just want to share with you this quote from book. This is what I say.
I said, "at what point does desensitization kick in? At what point are we feeding the malevolent proclivities of those who consume with mouthwatering gratification what is in essence a snuff film? At what point do we stop staring at these grotesque, dehumanizing images and start taking a hard look at the society that sowed this bitter harvest."
At what point? At what point? At what point? It's like the new Black exploitation, and it comes as America is having a reckoning with race and police violence. What has all this done to America's psyche? All of these videos, all of this death.
[22:15:03]
Listen to what one Texas mom told CNN about a kid's game that went horribly, horribly wrong.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MARIA, PARENT: What started off as a friendly game of cops and robbers quickly turned south when several kids tackled my 8-year-old to the ground. As he lay with his face pressed into the cement, he pleaded with them to get off of him. He told them he couldn't breathe. He laid there helpless, hoping somebody would step in. As he struggled to break free, one of the children said, hey, put your knee on his neck.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: A child saying, put your knee on his neck. that is what we've come to. that's why we can't turn away from all this. We can't sweep it under the rug. And it goes back to the original sin that can't be erased, and that is slavery. It's not just something in our distant past. It's not something we can put behind us. It was there from the beginning of this country, and it's still affecting us and our families today.
I learned about family members I didn't even know when I sat down with scholar Henry Louis Gates, Jr. for his series "Finding Your Roots."
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
LEMON: M. Shannon departed this life leaving an estate composed of land, slaves, and moveable situated in this parish. The following named slaves. Maria, age 30, her four children, Katherine, 6; Mary, 4; Eliza, 2; and an infant at $1,800. That was their worth?
HENRY LOUIS GATES, JR., DIRECTOR, HUTCHINS CENTER FOR AFRICAN AND AFRICAN AMERICAN RESEARCH, HARVARD UNIVERSITY: Right.
LEMON: This was their slaves. that is -- that's my family. that's where I came from, $1,800.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
LEMON: It hurts my heart. My family enslaved, worth $1,800, a young woman and her four children not even seen as human, worth just $1,800. Slavery, reconstruction, Jim Crow -- it's the root cause of the inequities that we're still dealing with today. The police violence against Black men and women, the assault on voting
rights, mostly the rights of people of color -- all part of the civil rights struggle of our time. So where do we go from here? A week of reckoning on race and police, and we still have a lot of work to do to end the systemic injustice that's at the heart of it. This is not the end. This is just the beginning.
And we have some new information I need to tell about coming out of Columbus, Ohio tonight in the deadly police shooting of Ma'Khia Bryant.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PAULA BRYANT, MA'KHIA BRYANT'S MOTHER: The killing needs to stop. There's been too many killings in the world. I want the killing to stop.
[22:20:00]
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: So, there's breaking news tonight. New video of the aftermath of the deadly police shooting in Columbus, Ohio, just released to the public tonight by the Columbus Police Department. It shows neighborhood people around the scene starting to express anger that a police officer just shot and killed a 16-year-old Black teen, Ma'Khia Bryant.
Now, let's look at the police body cam video of the shooting that was released earlier, and I warn you, this video is graphic. The police officer shooting the teen appears to be holding a knife during a scuffle with another young woman, raising concerns over police use of force.
Now, we have a lot to discuss now. Phillip Atiba Goff is here, the president and co-founder of the Center for Policing Equity. I really appreciate you joining us. It's good to have you back on. I just wanted to have this conversation with you.
You say here that the bottom line is that a 16-year-old Black girl is dead who doesn't need to be dead. So let's talk first about the alternatives the police could use in this situation. As an expert, what are they?
PHILLIP ATIBA GOFF, PRESIDENT AND CO-FOUNDER, CENTER FOR POLICING EQUITY: Yes, and so a lot of the conversation around this terrible incident has been around right in that moment. So, it appears that the girl had a knife. It appears that she's lunging at someone. What else could the police officer do?
This is a difficult situation. I want to be clear. This is not the same thing as the slow-motion lynching that we saw in Minneapolis. And also, are we really unable to imagine that a 16-year-old girl who was in foster care has been championed her whole life? Do we think that she's had an easy time of things? Can we not imagine a situation where we have already failed her bunch? I want to say that this situation is hard to look at. It's difficult to imagine. We see lots of times where someone's got a gun pointed at law enforcement, even literally dragging law enforcement on a car and they're able to go back safe.
[22:25:06]
And also, we want to protect everybody Black in that community. But also, we failed Ma'Khia Bryant well before two days ago. We failed her hundreds and probably thousands of times. And so, what communities are asking for is can't we figure out a way that she is a live at the end of this as well? Whatever the heck happened in there, can't we figure out a way that a 16-year-old girl is also alive?
LEMON: Yes. I think that that's absolutely right. The whole point of it, though, it seems to be maybe a reason that people are talking about and discussing, having a fulsome conversation, having fulsome conversations about rethinking police departments, re-imagining police departments.
But I have to tell you, Phillip, when officers roll up on the scene, they don't know people's history. Listen, perhaps they should, but they don't -- they can't tell how old someone is. They don't know in that moment who called the police. They don't know any of that.
And you know, if you look at -- by the time the cop got there and said, you know, get down, get down, get down, it was like seven or nine seconds. So is that -- I just think it's tough for a police officer in that time to figure all that out. Yes, the system failed Ma'Khia. It most certainly did. And who wouldn't feel -- who wouldn't be heartened by her story? We all should be, and we all should want to do better by her.
But the crux of this is what happened in those moments when the other person's life was in danger. Is that -- is that not the focus at this moment? We should be talking about those other things. But what everyone is upset about is, was this police shooting justified in the moment?
GOFF: that's the thing. That exactly the thing, is that as soon as someone is shot by police, the question is whether or not they deserved it. That's the question that have got many communities -- all day long today, almost all day long yesterday, I'm hearing from communities that are in pain. And part of the pain is when somebody in their community is shot --
LEMON: Wait. Can I stop you? Can I say something?
GOFF: Yes.
LEMON: I don't think it was whether or not -- I don't think she deserved it. I just don't like that language. I don't think anybody deserves to be shot and killed by -- it's whether or not the -- can we just say whether or not the shooting or the police officer's actions were justified? that's just me. I don't want to say that this young woman, this 16-year-old deserved it. Do you understand what I'm saying?
GOFF: And that's exactly what I'm trying to say, is that's what communities are hearing. When we're talking about whether or not it's justified, the other -- the flip side of that really does feel like, well, I guess maybe they deserved it.
If you're looking -- if you're looking at social media or listening to the national conversation around this -- and I know Twitter is not the world, right? But even the national conversation around this, it's, well, she shouldn't have picked up the knife. She shouldn't have been lunging at somebody. Yes, sure. Right?
And Dylann Roof shouldn't have shot up a church with nine people. He got a murder case. Right? The question often is was it justified in another version? What people hear in those communities is did they deserve to die? And the answer to that question is always no.
So, Yes, we have to be talking about what other options are available to the officer. Maybe the officer did what the officer thought was right to save a Black life. And at the same time, if the only conversation we're having is whether or not the officer was justified, many people hear that is did she deserve to die? And the answer to that question has to be no. So, it's not either/or.
LEMON: OK.
GOFF: We have to have the conversation about how we failed her and the harder conversation sometimes about whether or not the officer had other options in that moment. But we've got to do things so that when the officer shows up or before the offer shows up, we've done something different.
LEMON: But Phillip, everyone thinks that's the same -- it's not the same conversation. Whether the officer was justified, that's one conversation. Whether or not the system failed Ma'Khia Bryant, that is another conversation. Both of them can be legitimate. There's no nuance. There's no contextualizing things in this society.
Yes, again, the system failed her. We should have done better by her. And then there's also the conversation about how policing works in this country right now, whether it was justified. Both of those conversations are legitimate conversations to have, and I don't think that they should be morphed into one conversation. We do ourselves a disservice when we do that.
And, right, Twitter is not the world. Twitter is, you know, an echo chamber of people who -- an echo chamber of grievance, and that's what it is. So, pay no attention to that. But I think we do ourselves a disservice when we try to make it all one flat conversation. Black people are being killed. The officer was wrong. It's just not that cut and dry.
GOFF: No. And Don, I don't know that that's what I'm trying to say. I'm saying that we mostly don't have those conversations.
[22:29:57] LEMON: No, no, I'm not saying that you're -- I'm not saying that you're trying to say that. But I'm saying in the interests of the conversation that we are having about -- about the issues here, we should not be lumping this into one conversation. Go ahead, please.
GOFF: So, what we end up doing often is we have one conversation without the other.
LEMON: Right.
GOFF: We talk about whether or not it was justified, which again, a lot of communities here asked whether or not she deserved it, and we don't ever talk about the things that happen before. So, when we're looking at a video, you rightfully say, hey, we don't know what happened before the video, and lots of things could be going on, right? That's the right contextualization, but how far before the video do we talk about?
We're talking about that moment of the incident, and we don't end up talking about the lifetime of failures that happened to this girl. So, I hear you saying they're distinct, but they are together because both of them are part of the way that we end up having to watch that awful videotape.
So, yes, it is difficult -- it's a difficult situation for an officer to be in. It's less than 15 seconds, got to make a choice, sees the knife going for the neck of another Black person. I don't know the age of that other person, another Black person, woman or girl. And is deciding the person who's doing the killing, I got to stop that. I understand that, and that is a hard situation.
But if all we're talking about is that officer's decision in the split second, we're not doing the things we need to do to actually keep people safe. And that's what communities are crying out for. That's why I'm putting those together because we usually just talk about justification, and we don't talk about the failures for that 16-year- old girl.
LEMON: I think that is a very fair point, and I thank you for that. We'll have you back. I enjoyed having this conversation. I think we should continue it. Thank you, Phillip Atiba Goff. I appreciate it.
GOFF: Thanks, Don.
LEMON: The family of Daunte Wright saying their good-byes at his funeral today, and they're calling for what happened to him to never happen again.
Plus, police chiefs in Miami and San Francisco and New York, they're going to join me to discuss what needs to be done to address police use of force.
[22:35:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK) LEMON: Daunte Wright's grief-stricken mother at his funeral today, saying that she never in her life imagined what she's be standing -- that she'd be standing there saying, that the roles should be reverses, right, because her son should be burying her, is what she said.
Well, Daunte Wright, a 20-year-old Black man, a young father just starting out in life, shot and killed by a white police officer in Minnesota after he was pulled over for a minor driving offense.
I want to bring in CNN's Miguel Marquez in Minneapolis. Miguel, good evening to you. Thanks for joining.
You know, it's been two weeks of emotional whiplash in Minneapolis between the protests, the trial, the verdict and now today the Daunte Wright funeral. What's the feeling tonight for where this all goes now?
MIGUEL MARQUEZ, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes. I think there's a sense of resolve. I think people are very tired here. It's been a very, very difficult couple of weeks here. The verdict in the Chauvin trial, now a convicted murderer, you know, to have a white police officer convicted of murder even though people watched that trial very carefully and thought he would be convicted, to hear it was a completely different thing.
There was a real sense of catharsis across the city. And then to bury Daunte Wright today and everything that goes with that trial -- or with that situation and the white police officer, Kim Potter, who thought she was pulling her taser and instead pulled her Glock and put a single round into Mr. Wright and killed him, that she was charged so quickly.
She resigned from the department. She's a former officer. Then she was charged very quickly. That's a sense that maybe things are changing. Maybe things are moving in the right direction. I think there's a sense of sort of gathering themselves in Minneapolis and figuring what is that next step, Don?
LEMON: Miguel Marquez, thank you very much. I appreciate your reporting.
People across America calling for more than just talk on police reform. They want real action, action that they can see within their own communities. So how do we get there? I've got three police chiefs from some of the country's most diverse cities with me. You don't want to miss that discussion. That's next.
[22:40:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: So I probably should have promoted this segment a lot more at the top of the show because I want everybody to sit down, everyone who is feeling a certain kind of way about this, who has a connection and a feeling and a passion about this issue of policing, what happened in Ohio, what happened in Minneapolis, all of it.
Sit down and watch this. Just take a minute. Two more very different and unfortunately deadly police killings continue to raising -- to raise questions, serious questions about police and the use of force, especially when it comes to people of color and all of that in the same week as the murder conviction of ex-police officer Derek Chauvin for the death of George Floyd. A lot of work needs to be done.
So let's find out what is happening in police departments all across this country right now. So joining me now, Miami Police Chief Art Acevedo. San Francisco Police Chief William Scott, and Chief Jeffrey Maddrey of the NYPD Community Affairs Bureau.
Gentlemen, thank you so much.
So, I want to start with this -- with one question to all of you. Following the Chauvin verdict, several police killings of African- Americans in the past week. People want to know what is happening inside police departments right now. Chief Acevedo, you first.
ART ACEVEDO, CHIEF, MIAMI POLICE DEPARTMENT: Well, first let me just start with George Floyd and the conviction. I think there was a big sigh of relief by all of us that justice was served for that one family. And as it relates to the shooting of a young -- beautiful young woman -- girl in distress that was in the process of getting ready to stab another young woman, I think the conversation is what a tragedy.
And we all failed that young woman whose life was taken, and my heart goes out to her family. It goes out to that police officer who had to make a split-second decision. But there's a lot of failures in society that go well beyond policing, and I think we've got a lot of work to do that may start with us, but it certainly will not be fixed unless we look at public health and public mental health as well.
LEMON: Chief Scott, what's happening with your force right now and the conversations you're having?
WILLIAM SCOTT, CHIEF, SAN FRANCISCO POLICE DEPARTMENT: Well, first, Don, let me say -- let me start by saying my heartfelt condolences to not only those families but all families who have lost lives based on the hands of law enforcement.
And part of our focus is on that piece, Don, of really bringing the humanity into this in a very real way because I know we're going to talk about policy and accountability and all those things.
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But really all those things have to be rooted in humanity. I mean these are -- these are people and families that we're talking about, so we've got some work on that piece of it, and it's been fascinating work and it's been eye opening for a lot of our members. We started with our command staff, but we have to remember that these are people.
You know, I know we talk about right and wrong and whether it's justified or not, but it starts with humanity, and that will get us to the place -- help us get to the place that we want to go.
LEMON: Chief Maddrey, what are you telling your officers? Are any changes being made within the NYPD?
JEFFREY MADDREY, CHIEF, NYPD COMMUNITY AFFAIRS BUREAU: Good evening, Don. Thank you. And to my two colleagues there across the country, good evening and thank you too.
I echo both of their sentiments that we're in New York, we, in NYPD, we've been dealing with reform for the past few months. We've been really connecting with our communities and just really trying to understand how we can reform and re-imagine policing and right in the midst of dealing with the George Floyd verdict, we see two -- we see other incidents that are really tragic.
And you have families that lose loved ones, and you have police officers who are in very uncertain situations and very, you know, rapid situations, and they have to make split-second decisions, and it's tough on everybody.
And our officers are still out here doing the job, and they're still out here trying to connect with communities and protect communities, and we're still pushing that message that, hey, we're out here. We're the guardians of this city, and we have to make sure that we're connected with our communities even though we're dealing with these tragedies too. We all have our human side as well, and we hurt when we see these things.
LEMON: Chief Acevedo, the use of force, that's what this really is all about, right? that's what's under the microscope right now. During the Chauvin trial, a lot of people learned about the continuum of force. Are you reviewing -- and especially, you know, what happened in Ohio? Are you reviewing what force is necessary in certain situations?
ACEVEDO: I think what we're reviewing is what we're doing in terms of responding and interacting with people because quite honestly, one of the things where we make mistakes is that we don't utilize time, distance, proper numbers, resources, and covered concealment.
And from our perspective, we've got to teach officers to slow down a bit, take the time to think before you act instead of acting without thinking. We're training them to maintain your distance. Distance creates safety. For example, Tamir Rice, had those officers not driven right up to Tamir Rice, Tamir Rice would be alive today.
Utilize covered concealment, and then if you don't have enough numbers to deal with the situation safely, get numbers there. So, training is a big part of it but so is accountability. When officers are trained to do things a certain way and they fail to follow that training without excuse or justification, you've got to hold them accountable to that.
And so, we've got a lot of work to do but it starts with policing again. We also have to re-imagine policing. that's why we keep calling for President Biden to put together a blue-ribbon commission to re- imagine policing, re-imagine public safety, re-imagine criminal justice, and re-imagine public health and mental health, which is a big part, not to mention education, of what we need to do to deal with these tragedies.
LEMON: So, Chief Scott, let's talk about the Ma'Khia Bryant shooting. After the shooting of Ma'Khia Bryant, the Columbus interim police chief said an officer faced with someone employing deadly force can respond with deadly force. So, given what we have seen so far in the video from that case, does that seem to apply?
SCOTT: Well, a couple of things in most use of force policies, the protection of life is usually -- and I'll speak to our policy specifically, and I think most use of force policies and model policies have language to the effect of forces authorized to protect life, either your own or somebody else's.
So, in that sense, if somebody's life is in danger and that threat is imminent, like it's going to happen right now, I would say that just on the surface of that question, without any other facts, yes, that would be authorized.
But, you know, I heard Dr. Goff, your previous speaker, talk about many factors that we actually so have to consider and all these things play into that equation. It's not just the immediate use of life but there's lot of other factors to consider.
Like, you know, in our policy due care, you know, to use lethal force particularly a firearm when there's other people around, there is a chance that you might miss the person that you are trying to stop doing what they're doing and hit some innocent bystander.
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So due has to be taken into consideration, and if you don't balance that equation, there are times where, you know, the background is a very, very important situation. How many people are around? How close are they to the person that you have to -- that you're trying to stop from doing what they're doing? And that's what makes this so complex. It's not just as simple as that, Don, is what I'm saying, but fundamentally, the question that you ask if those are the only factors to consider, yes, that would be reasonable and probably with all departments and policy.
LEMON: Yes. Chief Maddrey, I'm going to ask you the same question. Are you -- I'm going to ask you the same question. If you're looking at the video, that use of force, does that apply?
MADDREY: Well, here in New York, when you talk about the use of deadly physical force, it always starts with the protection of the officer or a third person, and it's about the imminent threat. that was a very tough video to look at, especially after learning the ages of the young girls involved, but when you look at that video, you do see a young girl's arm swinging back with the knife in her hand, and that officer was in a very, very tough situation.
I mean, did he -- it was two lives on the line right there. You know? The girl who was about to be stabbed; how does he protect her? Does he allow her to be stabbed or does he take action to protect a life? I think there was an imminent situation there and that officer had to make a very, very tough decision.
And unfortunately, he didn't know other factors, he didn't know the ages, he probably didn't know what precipitated everything or what was going on. You saw other people out there. It appeared to be adults out there, and you know, we really have to employ everybody to get involved. We need our adults to get out there and help in our communities.
We have young people walking around with knives and guns, you know. We just can't allow this to fall on the shoulders of law enforcement. We need everybody being involved out there protecting our young people, protecting our babies. It's tough to see this situation.
LEMON: Yes.
MADDREY: But that officer had to protect other life.
LEMON: Chief Acevedo, I'm going to -- we're going to come back on the other side of the break and talk with just -- can you give me -- do you think, the same question. When you see in that video, does this, should the officer have responded, just from the video in the way -- in the manner that he did?
ACEVEDO: It's my understanding, and again, it's limited, that one individual had already been stabbed by this young woman, and sadly, she was in the process of stabbing another innocent third party, and had he failed to act, arguably, that other child died, we would be having a different conversation.
The conversation would be why didn't he protect the one young lady that was being stabbed? So it is very tragic, but I think that society has failed, and the police officer had to make a tough call to save a life and sadly took a life, but we need to ask the question, why did we fail that young woman who was killed in the first place?
Why weren't we getting her help? Why weren't we getting her counseling? Why weren't we getting her a psychologist? I mean, there are so many affairs in this country that ended in the laps of police officers, and it truly starts with elected officials that are not investing in the programs we need for healthy lives, healthy minds and healthy children growing up to be healthy adults.
LEMON: Yes. Gentlemen, stand by. More right after this quick break.
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LEMON: Back with me talking policing in America, Miami Police Chief Art Acevedo, San Francisco Police Chief William Scott, and Chief Jeffrey Maddrey of the NYPD Community Affairs Bureau.
I'm so glad that you guys are here, let me just restate that. So, Chief Scott, you know, the shootings of Daunte Wright and Andrew Brown, Jr. were over warrants. Isn't that -- there has to be a better way to handle serving a warrant so that it doesn't escalate to death. Am I wrong about that?
SCOTT: No, I don't think you're wrong, Don, at all. I mean, there are things -- and look, I don't have a lot of details so I can't comment on the shooting itself, but just on that question you asked about warrants and more has to be done. I know here, and I'll speak to the San Francisco Police Department, we have a very thorough process on vetting our warrants and the risk level of warrant.
And one of the things that that leads to in terms of operational policies, we -- the higher the risk, the more training we want the people that are serving those warrants to have. So, if it's a very high-risk warrant, we want our best and brightest people.
And we have some really good people serving those warrants. And we're talking about our tactical units and our SWAT team. And Don, you know, I can only speak for this department. They do a tremendous job because we had some very high-risk warrants with some, you know, people that committed violent acts, and we know there are guns in the locations and we have had very few, very few, in my time here -- I think only one -- situation where they had to use lethal force, and that was a hostage situation where it led to that.
So, to your question, you know, I can't speak for what the other departments across the country do, but for us, we -- that is a priority for us to vet those warrants, to make sure that if it is a high-risk warrant that we have the best people and the best minds and the best experience serving those warrants to minimize mistakes.