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Don Lemon Tonight
Brown Family Upset Over Transparency Issue, Only 20 Seconds Of Bodycam Video Shown To The Family And The Public; Police Force Need To Gain Trust From Communities; GOP Rewriting Biden's Policy; Louisville P.D. Under DOJ Investigation; Rep. Kevin McCarthy Defends Trump's Actions. Aired 10-11p ET
Aired April 26, 2021 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[22:00:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CHRIS CUOMO, CNN HOST: An important point as we all watch what's happening in our culture together. It is not about cherry-picking cases, OK? It is about showing you the reality and seeing how each case is dealt with.
The coverage continues now with "CNN TONIGHT," D. Lemon, the big star on the big show.
DON LEMON, CNN HOST: And this is what I say. This can -- I think -- I think regardless of how you feel about these issues, I think everyone feels the same on this. I think there needs to be transparency. The video needs to come out because the video can do what?
It can exonerate or it can condemn actions and if you, regardless, again, we need to see what happened before we can determine what the outcome should be, who is right, who is wrong or whatever the particulars are in these situations, right or wrong.
CUOMO: I think that you have to be right. Look, it is way past time where body cameras were an option. They are like a luxury item on a vehicle. No, they are a must. We are past that phase. There is no more debate. You know, in the beginning, there was a debate, well, you know, it might skew, that's over.
LEMON: Right.
CUOMO: Trust is transparency. Now, this case, to me, feels like Ahmaud Arbery on the local level. They just removed it to the state level, in North Carolina.
LEMON: Just did, right.
CUOMO: Now, that's good, we saw that with George Floyd in Minnesota, but it's also not good. Because --
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: Are you going to do this every time? CUOMO: That's right. You got to be able to handle it on a local level.
This is -- this is a bad suggestion, and it's bad for the police on the local level. Because now, although North Carolina you deal the big population of police, at least 10 were dealing with in the small county, this bedroom community is like 18,000 people.
But here is the problem. They will complain, people will complain, you're getting ahead of it, you're getting ahead of it. Look, this is on you. This is not on us. If you don't want to answer questions, if you don't want to give information, you're going to have assumptions and suspicions. That's the way it works.
LEMON: Yes.
CUOMO: If you want to ask me about something that I'm reporting, and I say, I'm not ready to tell you yet, I can't tell you, I don't want to talk to you about why I think this yet.
LEMON: Yes.
CUOMO: That's on me, OK?
LEMON: Right.
CUOMO: It is on the media to push. And this case doesn't look good.
LEMON: Yes. Well, that goes back to the first thing that came out of my mouth, transparency. If you are transparent with the video and transparent in what happened what you know in the moment because there is a public interest right now, a very high public interest and what's happening with police shootings.
And I get asked over and over and over, whether it is in interviews by other journalists or just the people who watch the program, or if I'm in a taxi. Don, are these things happening more often, or are we just seeing them because there are cellphones out there?
And look, my initial response is just that we're seeing them, but it appears, just within the last few months or so, we are getting one after another after another. There seems to be a spike in these. I have to see what the numbers are --
CUOMO: Right.
LEMON: -- because I want to answer that question, but you know, in an informed way I have to look at the numbers. But we are seeing it a lot.
CUOMO: Well, first of all --
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: And we are seeing it a lot because it's happening more because of thing --
CUOMO: -- you can't answer your own question. You can't answer your own question. Because we don't have a universe -- we don't have a universal data methodology.
LEMON: Reporting, right.
CUOMO: So, you are going to know. Because different departments don't report, and they get to define what is use of force versus an abuse use of force.
LEMON: And they get to define in the police reporting.
CUOMO: That's right.
LEMON: Look at what happened in Minneapolis with George Floyd.
CUOMO: Right.
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: Where the initial police report --
CUOMO: It happened with --
LEMON: Yes. But the initial police report looks nothing like what we saw on camera.
CUOMO: Right.
LEMON: What we know happened, you know, from the court ruling, from the verdict.
CUOMO: There was a spike in interest. I don't know that there was a spike in cases. If anything, what happens is we get bored of this, and we move on to the next malady.
LEMON: Yes.
CUOMO: We move on to the next mess concern, and the cases are there. And they can play with the numbers about what it is. This is a, one is too many category.
LEMON: Agree.
CUOMO: And you can make changes, you look at places like Camden, you know, in New Jersey. They got things better. I'm not saying it's Utopia in that place, I'm just saying, you can make things better, and the transparency is always part of it. And this whole, you know, body camera video is shaky, hey, I'm not watching a movie. OK?
LEMON: Right. It doesn't have to be perfect lighting, right.
(CROSSTALK)
CUOMO: This isn't about -- I want to see did the guy shoot at you or not?
LEMON: Yes.
CUOMO: We know he didn't have a weapon. Did he come at you or not? Did he drive at you or not?
LEMON: Yes.
CUOMO: Why would you fire at him going away? We know the legal standard. This is basic.
LEMON: Show us the video, it doesn't have to be perfect as you said. The Oscars were last night, and we want to see this video, not the edited, fancy version of it.
Thank you, sir, I've got to go.
CUOMO: D. Lemon, you look good.
LEMON: See you soon.
CUOMO: I love you.
LEMON: Yes. I wish I could say the same thing for that haircut, but I've got to run.
CUOMO: Move along.
LEMON: This is CNN TONIGHT. I'm Don Lemon.
[22:05:01]
Listen, we have to talk about transparency, we have a lot to talk about. Because demands for answers and accountability in Elizabeth City, North Carolina in the wake of another police shooting. Here we are talking about another police shooting.
CNN has obtained some exclusive video, let's put it up. It was taken by a neighbor from a distance in the moments after Andrew Brown, Jr. was shot and killed by police who is attempting to serve him, they were attempting to serve him with an arrest warrant.
It has been five days since Andrew Brown, Jr. was shot to death by police. Five days. And you heard Chris saying, five days, and if there is no transparency or people think you're hiding something, then they have to fill it in with something, with assumptions, right? With questions. Five days of questions without answers, five days of body cam videos kept from the public.
You know, I have been saying this all along on the show since I've been doing this show that the transparency of having video is the main tool that we have to be able to determine, that we have to be able to determine, what happen in these cases. Without that transparency none of us knows. Nobody knows.
Andrew Brown's family and their attorney said that they were only shown one body cam video from one deputy even though seven deputies have been put on administrative leave, two others have resigned, and one has retired. And they say what they saw was a snippet, just 20 seconds long. Watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BENJAMIN CRUMP, ATTORNEY FOR BROWN FAMILY: They are trying to hide something. They don't want us to see everything.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON (on camera): Twenty seconds. Twenty seconds. I want you to imagine if we had only had 20 seconds of that video of George Floyd, Derek Chauvin kneeling on his neck. Imagine if we had only 20 seconds of that. Imagine if we'd only saw 20 seconds instead of 9 minutes and 29 seconds. Would we have ever known what happened to George Floyd? With the death of another Black man have been swept under the rug?
Again, and I want to be very clear here, the facts in these cases are very different. We need to know all the facts, that's why transparency is so important because the videotape can exonerate an officer's actions, or can condemn them.
I'll say it again, the videotape can exonerate an officer's actions, or it can condemn the officer's actions. That's why 20 seconds of body cam video just doesn't begin to tell the story of what happened here, the family and their legal team calling it an execution.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHANTEL CHERRY-LASSITER, ATTORNEY FOR ANDREW BROWN, JR.'S FAMILY: This was an execution. Andrew Brown was in his driveway, the sheriff blocked him in his driveway, so he could not exit his driveway, Andrew had his hands on his steering wheel. He was not reaching for anything, he was not touching anything, he wasn't throwing around, he had his hands firmly on the steering wheel.
They ran up to his vehicle shooting.
UNKNOWN: No. Yes, sure he is.
CHERRY-LASSITER: He still stood there, sat there in his vehicle with his hands on the steering wheel while being shot at. He finally decides to try to get away and he backs out not going towards the officers at all. There was at no time in the 20 seconds that we saw where he was threatening the officers in any kind of way.
UNKNOWN: That's right.
CHERRY-LASSITER: He was trying to evade being shot.
UNKNOWN: Yes.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON (on camera): That attorney will be on in just moments. We'll talk to her. We know very little about what happened very little. And the questions have gotten louder and louder, and louder, as the days have gone by without the body cam footage being released. The sheriff's office says that the county attorney filed a motion today in court to release it. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DANIEL FOGG, DEPUTY CHIEF, PASQUOTANK, NORTH CAROLINA: Today, our county attorney has filed a motion with the court to release the body camera video. We will comply with the judge's order.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON (on camera): A lot more to come out of this. But on top of the trauma of George Floyd's death, Daunte Wright's death, Ma'Khia Bryant's death, as America grapples with race in policing, I want you to listen to this. It's from Senator Lindsey Graham.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHRIS WALLACE, ANCHOR, FOX NEWS: Senator, is there systemic racism in this country, in policing and in other institutions?
SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM (R-SC): No, not in my opinion. We just elected a two-term African American president. The vice president is of African- American Indian descent. So, our systems are not racist. America is not a racist country. Within every society, you have bad actors.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON (on camera): Boy, boy. Look, that's what got us in trouble. That's what -- that thinking, that sort of thinking is what led us to very fine people on both sides. That sort thinking. Because people thought we were in this post-racial society after they elected a Black president, and then look what happened after that. Look at all of the bigots and the racist, and the neo-Nazis and all of that, that came from just beneath the surface because of thinking like that.
[22:10:03]
Really? Racism doesn't exist because of Barack Obama? Do you not remember the whole birtherism thing? The man couldn't even wear a tanned suit, couldn't even ride his bicycle with a helmet. Really? Because of Kamala Harris? President Obama didn't have a magic wand that he could wave around to end racism, neither does our vice president now, Vice President Harris. That's not how systemic racism works, that's not how any of this works.
Lindsey Graham has to be educated or has an education of some sort, surely, he has read a history book even though the entire history of the country is not most of those books. But surely, he has read a history book. It's not something that we can just magically put behind us, it was there from the beginning of this country, it's still affecting us today.
And the senator's lack of knowledge about systemic racism goes hand in hand with his own party's lack of relationship with the truth, the post-truth society that we live in now.
The GOP is the party of the big lie, and all of the lies that float from that exhibit a, the top Republican in the House, his name is Kevin McCarthy, trying to rewrite history before your very eyes. Walking back his own statements about the siege of the capitol, an assault incited by the then president and his big lie about nonexistent election fraud.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. KEVIN MCCARTHY (R-CA), HOUSE MINORITY LEADER: When I talk to President Trump about, I was the first person to contact him when the riot was going on, he didn't it. What he ended the call, was saying telling me, he'll put something out to make sure to stop this. That's what he did. He put a video later.
WALLACE: Quite a lot later, and it was a pretty weak video, but I'm asking you specifically, did he say to you, I guess some people are more concerned about the election than you are?
MCCARTHY: Now listen, my conversations with the president and my conversations with the president, I engage in the idea of making sure that we can stop what was going on inside the capitol at that moment in time, the president said he would help.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON (on camera): Revisionist history writer, Kevin McCarthy everyone. There's a whole lot of rewriting history in that soundbite, a lot of it. The way Kevin McCarthy describes that call, that's not how it happened at all, not at all. You probably remember what really happened, I hope you remember what really happened, OK?
Well, let me explain. Representative Jamie Herrera Beutler, a Republican by the way confirming to CNN that the then president got into a shouting match with McCarthy saying quote, "well, Kevin, I guess these people are more upset about the election than you are." And then McCarthy as rioters were trying to break into his office through the windows firing back. And I'm quoting here again. "Who the f do you think you're talking to?"
And that video the president put out two hours after the capitol was breached, the one that McCarthy said was meant to stop the rioters who were beating police within an inch of their lives, hunting for lawmakers and chanting hang Mike Pence? What did the former president say to them? He said, we love you, you are very special.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: Go home, we love you, you're very special. You've seen what happens, you see the way others are treated that are so bad and so evil. I know how you feel, but go home and go home in peace.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON (on camera): We love you, you're very special, we know how you feel. That's the video that Kevin McCarthy said was meant to stop the bloodthirsty rioters storming the capital. Sounds more like a little love letter, huh? We love you? The minority leader sure has changed his tune, you've got to wonder
sometimes whether he knows that he's on camera. You've got to wonder whether he thinks that we've forgotten all about what he said on the House floor just days after the insurrection.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MCCARTHY: The president bears responsibility for Wednesday's attack on Congress by mob rioters. He should have immediately denounced the mob when he saw what was unfolding. These facts require immediate actions by President Trump. Except his share of responsibility quell the brewing unrest, and ensure President-elect Biden is able to successfully begin his term.
And the president's immediate action also deserves congressional action, which is why I think a fact-finding commission and a censure resolution would be prudent.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON (on camera): Except his share of responsibility, the president bears responsibility. He should have immediately denounced the mob.
[22:15:06]
I should say the ex-president, he should immediately have denounced that mob. Whatever happened to that guy, yes, this happened just two weeks after Kevin McCarthy's speech on the House floor, there he was, there he is at Mar-a-Lago kissing the ring.
There you have the former party of Lincoln, still falling over themselves to defend a disgrace, twice impeached, one-term, former president, the party of the big lie and all the lies that flowed from that.
We're going to talk about 20 seconds of body cam video tonight, it's not nearly enough to tell us the truth of what happened in Andrew Brown's final moments. When will we get answers?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CRUMP: The truth will come out, the video will be seen by the public and we will get justice for Andrew Brown, Jr.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:19:56]
LEMON (on camera): Outrage in Elizabeth City, North Carolina tonight after another Black man was fatally shot by police, Andrew Brown, Jr. is his name was killed five days ago by -- but attorneys for his family said that they were only shown 20 seconds of video from just one body camera. So, joining me now is someone who saw the video herself. She saw it. She's going to describe to us what's in it. Chantel Cherry-Lassiter, she's the attorney for Andrew Brown Jr.'s family. Thank you, attorney Lassiter. I appreciate you joining us. Thanks so much.
CHANTEL CHERRY-LASSITER, ATTORNEY FOR ANDREW BROWN JR.'S FAMILY: Thank you for having me.
LEMON: So, as I said, you saw the 20 seconds of video, what did you see?
CHERRY-LASSITER: From the redacted version that we saw, we were able to see just a snippet of what actually transpired on that morning. We saw the sheriff's department truck blocking Mr. Brown's vehicle in his driveway, so he could not exit by going forward. He was locked in. When the video started, we heard shots, and since the video and second one, since the video started, we heard gunshots.
And then we saw the officers yelled, you know, M.F., let me see your hands, and Mr. Brown sat in his car with his hands on the steering wheel as they were yelling at him and firing having guns pointed towards him and firing at him. Instead of Mr. Brown going forward to try to harm the officers, he backed up, and he backs his vehicle away from the officers. And he tried to go around them to escape the gunfire.
As he was driving off and out of his yard he was still being targeted and shot at as he was driving away. And once his vehicle hit the tree across the street you could still hear the gunshots and the firing at Mr. Brown.
LEMON: OK. So, you said that the video started immediately, you said with gunshots. So, they were shooting --
CHERRY-LASSITER: Yes.
LEMON: -- at him. Do you know, had he been hit when the video started?
CHERRY-LASSITER: We couldn't tell. We watched it numerous times, we paused it, we round it and watched it over and over. We couldn't tell when he was hit, but he was still trying to get away from the gunfire.
LEMON: And what were they, so, he -- and from what you saw even when it started with the gunshots, do you know where his hands were? Were his hands on the wheel then from?
CHERRY-LASSITER: Yes, they were still on the wheel. And he slowly started moving backwards once he saw that they were basically, just attacking him. He then realized he had to get out of there. So, he slowly started moving backwards with his hands still on the steering wheel.
LEMON: Did he say anything to officers? Or was there any exchange of words or anything?
CHERRY-LASSITER: We didn't see that. They -- we don't -- I don't know what happened before. Those 20 seconds were after, they did not provide any of that. They also didn't provide us any camera footage from the officers that were on the driver side of the vehicle. The one camera that we were allowed to see was from an officer running across the street towards Mr. Brown's vehicle. So, there is lot of missing footage and information out there.
LEMON: So, you have no idea when the fatal shot or shots were fired? At one point -- at what point in the video, correct, or in the exchange or the altercation?
CHERRY-LASSITER: Yes. We couldn't tell.
LEMON: OK. So, the sheriff says the entire incident was 30 seconds or less. Right? And body cameras were shaky and hard to decipher. What's your response to that, Attorney Lassiter?
CHERRY-LASSITER: Even if a body camera is shaky, if we had all of the body cameras, we could put together more information about what actually happened. If they know that the body cameras were shaky, they only provide us one shaky body camera when there are multiples available. We were not provided with that information to the family.
LEMON: CNN obtained a video of the immediate aftermath of a police shooting from the neighborhood. I want you to take a look at this, and I don't know if you've seen it. But how important will all of these videos be in this investigation?
CHERRY-LASSITER: They're extremely important because the more information we have, the more we can actually see what happened because we weren't there. So, if we can get access to all of that, then we can start putting pieces together and find out what happened to Mr. Brown.
LEMON: You know I forgot to ask you one thing. I was watching Ben Crump on with Chris, and he said that they fussed out the officer's faces? Were there parts of the video that we're fussed?
CHERRY-LASSITER: Yes, their faces were fussed out, some of the assault rifles that they had were fussed out, it was very fuzzy.
[22:24:59]
At times you couldn't even see the whole entirety of the video because there was so much redaction going on. It was very difficult to see even what was happening completely.
LEMON: Did they -- did you ask about that?
CHERRY-LASSITER: We did. And they said that per information that they had, they believed it was necessary to fuss out the video.
LEMON: Do you, have you ever since, you know, in your time as an attorney, have you had this much of an issue obtaining police body cam video or evidence like this in the case?
CHERRY-LASSITER: I haven't had direct issues as far as this is concerned. I know that Attorney Crump and Attorney Daniels have dealt with this extensively. And according to them they have not had this much difficulties.
LEMON: And so, I heard they have filed a motion in order for a court release from the body camera footage, and they say they are going to comply with the judge's order. You said the family doesn't believe that police are -- the family -- do they believe that the police are trying to hide things? You do believe they're trying to hide something?
CHERRY-LASSITER: Well, the problem is that they are going to comply with a court order, but according to what they told the family that the family can see the videos. So now they are saying, we are going to comply with the court order. But you also said that the family can see the video footage, and that hasn't really happened. So, we're not really confident about what is going to transpire even after the court order is put in place.
LEMON: I want to -- I saw Bakari on earlier, and he said that officers were hostile towards him. Were they hostile towards you as you were interacting with them? Looking at this video?
CHERRY-LASSITER: I was more so interacting with the different -- a different set of officers. There was a lot of confusion about who could stay in the room, who could not, and I didn't have to handle that. I was with the family more so than I was trying to handle the other officers. So, I did not encounter any hostility once everything was decided of who would be in the room, there wasn't any hostility once when we get into the room.
LEMON: Attorney Lassiter, thank you for your time. We appreciate you sharing what you saw on that tape and your perspective. I'm sure we'll have you back on. Thanks so much.
CHERRY-LASSITER: Thank you. Have a good evening.
LEMON: Thank you. You as well.
So, we have to ask the questions of the attorneys in this case who would ask the questions of police as well if they choose to come on and take questions from us. But again, as I've been saying and I always say throughout these things, transparency is key. The video is part of the transparency in this and it should be released so that the public can see, and so that the family can see, and that the investigation can be held above board.
So, the Justice Department, talking about another shooting now. The Justice Department launching an investigation into the Louisville Police Department after the killing of Breonna Taylor. Can the feds bring change to local forces? That's the question.
[22:30:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON (on camera): And we're back. North Carolina City demanding answers from law enforcement following the fatal shooting of Andrew Brown, Jr. And that as the DOJ announces an investigation into a second major police department following the killing of a person of color.
I want to get some perspective now from Captain Ron Johnson, the former incident commander in Ferguson Missouri. Captain, good to see you. I wish we could see each other under better circumstances, but unfortunately this is what's going on and this is your expertise lies. So again, thank you so much.
We just heard from that lawyer from Andrew Brown's family, the family is outrage that the only have access to 20 seconds of body cam footage, they're calling it an execution, their words. How important is it for the family and the public to see the full tape?
RON JOHNSON, RETIRED CAPTAIN, MISSOURI STATE HIGHWAY PATROL: It's really important, and you know, we always talk about transparency, and that's important because that equals trust. Right now, trust is just not there, it's not there for that family, it's not there for that community. And really, it's not there for our nation.
LEMON: Our police losing credibility every day that they don't release more information in this case?
JOHNSON: Yes, they are, they really are. People are becoming angry, frustrated, but they're losing it. And so, you know, I heard earlier someone said that it may be at a point where the attorney general, the governor has to step in because so far trust is just gone. I don't know how they're going to gain that back from the steps they're taking as we speak.
LEMON (on camera): The Attorney General Merrick Garland announcing today that the Justice Department investigation is going to have into the Louisville Police Department a little a year after officers there shot and killed Breonna Taylor. I want you to listen to how the Louisville police chief reacted to investigation. Here it is.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ERIKA SHIELDS, CHIEF, LOUISVILLE POLICE DEPARTMENT: I think it's a good thing. I think that it's necessary because police reform quite honestly, it is needed in near every agency across the country. And if us at Louisville LMPD are going to be one of the flagship departments for change, then bring it on. We are going to deliver.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON (on camera): She is not alone. Local officials, activists, the governor all being positive about this. Are you hopeful that real reform can happen if departments welcome DOJ's scrutiny like this?
JOHNSON: I applaud her today speaking with a lot of courage and it can. If departments embrace it, you can -- you can see change. But that chain has to be reaching out, and those departments within the region also have to take on some of that change and it needs to be shared. So, while that department they need to share their recommendations and other leaders ought to take that on.
[22:34:57]
LEMON: The Justice Department also looking into the Minneapolis Police Department following the killing of George Floyd. Is the best way to look each other's departments as needed when there are police killings of Black people or is there need to be a nationwide approach?
I mean, even when you look at, Captain, the way -- the way that we the media and the family members have to get video. Right? Sometimes it's a court order or Freedom of Information Act. It doesn't seem that there is a universal system in this country. is that what needs to happen? What needs to happen, shall we have some sort of nationwide approach to these issues?
JOHNSON: We are going to have to. We have so many police departments that is going to have to be a nationwide and far-reaching. And when we have these DOJ investigations for specific departments, that things that they're finding in these specific departments really are tailored -- could be tailored to departments throughout this country and shared in that way and the brush needs to be bigger.
LEMON: How, the question is look, we've been reporting a lot, especially crime is down overall, right? We've been reporting that for years now, but then during COVID there was a surge and some say this.
How should the Justice Department and local departments get ahead of the violence happening, instead of just investigating after it happens. Meaning, the uptick in crime and what we're seeing with these shootings, the video of the shootings that we're seeing lately?
JOHNSON: Well, I think we have to re-look at the whole system and we have to stay ahead of it and not be reactive to it. A lot of these issues that we're seeing now, police departments I believe are aware. But communities are telling them but no one is reacting to it.
And so, we have to react to it. We have to get everyone involved, that means community leaders, but that means the citizens have to be involved. And I think that some departments we're seeing citizen, advisory boards, and we need to see more of those throughout the country.
LEMON: Captain Ron Johnson, I always appreciate your time and your expertise, thank you so much.
JOHNSON: Thank you.
LEMON: Sitting governors and congresswoman are all outraged over the latest Biden policy except, take this. It's all completely made up.
[22:40:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON (on camera): So, take this. Top GOP officials freaking out over a Biden administration policy that does not exist. The outrage is over the false as in totally fake, completely made-up whack-a-do fantasy claim that President Biden is trying to force Americans to be less red meat for the sake of the climate crisis.
The fake policy, which CNN fact checker Daniel Dale finds originated from the internet tabloid the Daily Mail, making its way to the mothership, Fox.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LARRY KUDLOW, FORMER DIRECTOR, U.S. NATIONAL ECONOMIC COUNCIL: No burgers on July 4th, no stakes on the barbie. I'm sure middle America is just going to love that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON (on camera): That should actually be the Fox propaganda network. Tonight, Fox anchor John Roberts walking back claims made on his show about the fake policy last week saying that the program quote, "incorrectly implied Biden would limit meat eating."
But it's too late, the lie had already made its way to the Twitter sphere. Republican governors of Texas and Idaho taking time out of their schedules to tweet images from the deceptive Fox coverage, OK? And Congresswoman Lauren Boebert and Marjorie Taylor Greene, congresswomen, I should say, Boebert and Greene also spreading the lie. Greene calling Biden the ham burglar, it's almost like it doesn't matter to them that the Biden administration has taken no action whatsoever to make Americans less meat.
People, your burgers are safe. They're going to take our burgers away! You can't make the stuff up. Well, they did. This all snowballed from an academic paper that is not about President Biden, and says nothing about the government imposing dietary limits and it was then posted online. It's not even the first time this year that we have had to live through a meat controversy.
Only last month Republican Montana Governor Greg Gianforte took official action on meat eating. He issued a proclamation for Montana meat day in reaction to the Democratic governor of Colorado asking people to give it up for one day for their health and the climate.
It really makes you wonder were these officials really concern with the issues facing their constituents, or are they only worried about throwing out that kind of, the other kind of red meat to their supporters. I think we know the answer to that.
That is a question for Mark McKinnon and Ana Navarro after the break.
[22:45:00]
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LEMON (on camera): So, I told you about this at the beginning of the show, the House Minority Leader Kevin McCarthy completely rewriting history and defending Trump's response to the capitol insurrection. Well, McCartney -- McCarthy, I should say, now claiming that when he spoke with Trump on the phone during the riots, Trump hadn't seen them. And that the call ended with the then-president saying that he would put something out to stop them.
Well, that flies in the face of the reporting that we have, which is that McCarthy pushed Trump to call off the rioters, and Trump said well, Kevin, I guess these people are more upset about the election than you are.
So, joining me now is Mark McKinnon, he is the former adviser to George W. Bush and John McCain, and also the executive producer of The Circus on Showtime along with CNN political commentator, Ana Navarro.
Good evening to both of you.
So, Mark, let's start with you because McCarthy is completely changing his tune. I mean, even with Trump out of office, the lies, the gaslighting, the revisionist history not going anywhere. What is -- what's happening here?
MARK MCKINNON, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: It's all about 2022 and wanting to be speaker of the House, Don. I mean, the reality is that historically speaking the outer party has a very good shot in the midterms of picking up House seats. They're only down a handful of seats right now, and a portion it's going to favor Republicans.
So, there is a very likely chance that Republicans will retake the House in 2022, and Kevin McCarthy wants to be speaker. And he's worried that something like Jim Jordan, who is Trumpier than he is, because he will, he is a lantern much closer to the flame than Kevin McCarthy. Because McCarthy made the mistake of telling the truth a couple of times about the insurrection and now, he's walking in fact because it's all about wanting Trump's endorsement for 2022.
[22:50:04]
LEMON: Then how much longer, Ana, can this Trump grift go on? Because listen, McCarthy is in some back bencher like Marjorie Taylor Greene and Lauren Boebert. I mean, he is the House minority leader. Is he more of a follower than a leader?
ANA NAVARRO, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: You think? Look, if there's anything we saw this week, we've seen since January 6 is that Kevin McCarthy is anything but a leader and behaves like anything but a leader. I agree with Mark. But I also think it's about fund-raising. Donald Trump is a very good at fund-raising from small donors. Kevin McCarthy, not so much. Many, others not so much.
And they also know that Donald Trump getting involved in primaries, and he will because he's shown himself to be very vindictive and petty when it comes to settling scores. But the one that's looking a fool here is Kevin McCarthy. So, it's almost like he treats his supporters and his viewers and the people who watch news like we have short term memory problems.
It has not been that long ago that we saw him saying something completely different. Or is he calling some of his Republican colleagues who told us about the expletive field phone call, is he calling Jaime Herrera Beutler a liar? Because I'd like to hear him say that if that's what he is doing.
What he's doing is trying to save face because he's got to justify the fact that he goes and kisses Trump's ring among other body parts. And he's got to look himself at the mirror and justify that. And so, the other way he can justify it is by rewriting history and lying.
LEMON: Ana, you scare me, I never know what you're going to say.
NAVARRO: You should be scared.
LEMON: Yes. Like, is she going to actually say the word but you don't. You always --
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MCKINNON: She always goes there, Don. She always goes there.
LEMON: She does. But you know, listen, I think this is what you are saying, because, that, Mark, Bakari told the New York Times that going against Trump could say damage the party, saying that he could change the whole course of history. This is the tightest tightrope anyone has to walk.
So, condemning blatant push to overturn the election is it really that hard of a tightrope to walk?
MCKINNON: It shouldn't be. It shouldn't be. I mean, you know, and it's remarkable that there hasn't been a handful of leaders in the Republican Party like Liz Cheney, who came out who were willing to tell the truth about the insurrection.
Take on Donald Trump and tell it like it is, like it was. But it's clear that Donald Trump still has a stranglehold on the party, that people are going to kiss his ring especially in these primaries, and especially for leadership and as Ana said, for fund-raising as well.
So, you, know, I mean, Mitch McConnell tried to take him out with early on and saw that didn't work, and if you don't take out the king look out, because he's going to stomp the grounds. And that's exactly what trump is doing right now and he's making it known that he's going to -- he's going to be a player for 2022 and maybe 2024, as well.
NAVARRO: And Don, you know what else is incredibly disturbing as a Republican, as a Republican woman. Kevin McCarthy has the cripple caucus, you know, that he has the leader of. I mean, he's got, you know, he's got Matt Gaetz currently under investigation for sex trafficking amongst other things. He's got Madison Cawthorn from North Carolina who women have said would drive them to the boondocks to try to sexually assault them.
He's got that doctor, the White House doctor from Texas who, you know, a report -- a government report said would get drunk and knock-on women's doors in the middle of the night. He's got the QAnon conspiracy theorist in Marjorie Taylor Greene. Listen, you know, look at what Trump has brought into the Republican Party, and it's to the point where Kevin McCarthy can't even out them. Can't even get his own caucus under control. It is the cripple caucus, cripple caucus.
LEMON: Mark, let me ask you about the Fox and what the GOP and Fox propaganda network pushing this bogus claim that Biden wants to force Americans to eat less red meat. Is this what happens when this cancel culture grievances are combined with misinformation?
MCKINNON: Well, it's real whopper, Don.
NAVARRO: You'll be waiting for that one, Mark.
MCKINNON: I've been waiting for that. This is -- this is the clearest case of desperation I've seen, at least in the last 24 hours where -- and you know, Democrats should sort of secretly be cheering about this. Because what it says to me is that they can't take on Biden himself. They can't take on Biden's policies. So, they just got to make up stuff in order to get the base riled up.
[22:55:06]
And they can't even, you know, they can't take on the actual policies or the president, so they just make up this disinformation campaign that then gets peddled through the conservative ecosystem shows up on YouTube. Gets monetized on YouTube as 150,000 users more on YouTube, and you know it's pretty easy to manufacture a lie.
It's very easy to absorb it, but somebody have to be responsible for spreading it. And you know, listen, I give props to John Fox -- I mean, John Roberts on Fox, he's a good reporter, the White House bureau reporter who came out and knocked it back for what it was.
LEMON: Yes. thank you both. I --
NAVARRO: Don, if they touch --
LEMON: Yes?
NAVARRO: I'm taking to the streets, OK?
LEMON: If they touch your what?
NAVARRO: They better lay their hands on the crawfish and the oysters
LEMON: As long as they don't touch the crawfish and crab, I'm good. Thank you both. I appreciate it.
The family of a Black man killed by police said that they were only shown 20 seconds of body cam video. We're live in North Carolina, that's next.
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