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Don Lemon Tonight

Officer Michael Fanone Speaks Out On Defending The Capitol On January 6; FBI Opens Investigation Into Brown Shooting; CDC Releases New Mask Guidance; President Biden To Deliver Address To Congress; Independent Autopsy Of Andrew Brown Jr.; GOP Keeps Spreading Lies In Desperate Attempt To Score Political Points. Aired 11p-12a ET

Aired April 27, 2021 - 23:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[23:00:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DON LEMON, CNN HOST (on camera): Officer Michael Fanone, one of the heroes police officer of January 6 telling me tonight what he wants people to understand about that terrible day.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MICHAEL FANONE, D.C. METROPOLITAN POLICE OFFICER: I want people to understand the significance of January 6th. I want people to understand that, you know, thousands of rioters came to the Capitol hell bent on violence and destruction and murder, and that 850 MPD officers responded there and really saved the day.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON (on camera): That as the president, Joe Biden, in just hours sets to deliver his first address to a joint session of Congress in the very room where those rioters tried to prevent him from becoming president. Biden expected to tout his pandemic response and push his jobs and infrastructure plans for the nation.

Plus, the FBI announcing a civil rights investigation to the fatal shooting of Andrew Brown Jr. by North Carolina deputies last week as CNN obtains new surveillance video of the moments leading up to the shooting.

And the CDC issuing new guidance on what you can do. Fully vaccinated Americans can now go without a mask outside most of the time.

Let's bring in our White House correspondent, John Harwood and political analyst Astead Herndon to discuss a lot of issues with what's going to happen tomorrow. Also the issue -- the interview that I had last hour with the officer Michael Fanone. Thank you very much, gentlemen, for joining. Astead, I want to play more from that interview with the Officer Fanone about the insurrection. Watch this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

FANONE: It's been very difficult seeing elected officials and other individuals kind of whitewash the events of that day or downplay what happened. Some of the terminology that was used like hugs and kisses and, you know, very fine people, like very different from what I experienced and what my coworkers experienced on the 6th.

You know, I experienced a group of individuals that were trying to kill me to accomplish, you know, their goal. And I think that -- sorry, Don. Man, I didn't think I'd get this emotional. Yeah, I mean, I experienced the most brutal, savage hand-to-hand combat of my entire life.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON (on camera): President Biden is planning to reference the January 6th riot in his speech. This big lie is the backdrop, really. I mean, speak to the significance of that, Astead. He's going to be delivering it as Abby said earlier, basically at a crime scene.

ASTEAD HERNDON, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST. NATIONAL POLITICAL REPORTER, NEW YORK TIMES (on camera): Absolutely. And I think that's how we should continue to think about what happened on that day and how we should think about the insurrection and the attempts to overthrow the democracy. And what we're seeing, that moment you're showing from that officer is really one that speaks to how close it got on that day.

And I don't think that's something that should be forgotten. But we should also know that the Republican officials involved, particularly those who are beholden to President Trump have foregone their promises to back law enforcement have or forgone their promises to support police officers and blue lives matter, all in the sake of their political means and their political goals.

[23:05:12]

And I think that that actually speaks to what those values actually were to them. It was not a real principled support of law enforcement. It was not a kind of more morally rigid stance from them. What they were doing was simply supporting them for the purposes of demeaning other social justice movements, even now you have Republicans talking about all of those black lives matter and the crowd. It was Antifa in the crowd.

That is not supported. That has not been proven by evidence. That is a lie and we know that to be true. And if these Republican officials were following facts, that would be something that would be easy for them to admit. But we know that this is about a political aim that requires for them to be beholden to the former president and to be beholden to the lie that he helped spread.

LEMON: John, do you think he will call out the Republicans who are doing the whitewashing or is that not Joe Biden's thing to do?

JOHN HARWOOD, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT (on camera): Well, I think that's not going to be at the forefront of what he's trying to do. But I think Astead's point is well taken, and you're exactly right that the insurrection is the backdrop for the speech. I think there's three things that Joe Biden is going to do in that speech. The first is to celebrate the progress in getting the pandemic under

control, which has been his number one priority and the relaxation of the mask guidance today, 200 million shots in arms, vaccination rates are rising, we are getting closer back to return to normal.

Second thing is to use that success and say I know what I'm doing, here's a plan to get our economy back. The recovery plan, families plan, jobs plan, all of the components of that $4 trillion and try to build momentum for that.

But the third thing is to raise the stakes and say this is about showing that democracy can still work, that we can compete with autocracies like China. And this is an argument that works on a couple of level. It accommodates the possibility that Republicans may somehow come around to participate in passing a big portion of his plan. Though that's a long shot.

But in the event that does not happen, which is likely, it sets the stage for him to say to Democrats, if we're going to save democracy, it's not going to be a Republican Party whose president encouraged that insurrection and many of whom members are trying to whitewash it now. It's going to be on you Democrats to show that democracy can work and he'll count on that to try to hold his Party together behind some of the controversial elements of this plan.

LEMON: You know, Astead, there's also been a plague of police shootings of black Americans on his watch. According to a new CNN poll, most Americans, 53 percent say that policing needs major changes or a complete overhaul. 32 percent say it needs minor changes, and only 14 percent say it works pretty well. This is still a big challenge.

HERNDON: Oh, absolutely. This is going to be a theme that continues through this. I mean, this was a challenge for any -- for his predecessor and former President Barack Obama, right. And this is going to go forward. I think what we also know is that his promises to black Americans were robust. I mean, this is a president that came in explicitly saying that this is the community that helped put him in office and that he owes them something.

And so I think what we're going to see here, when we look forward to the midterms and we look forward to the -- to his re-election in 2024 is a black community that's saying what did you do with that investment? That the initial kind of backing of Joe Biden was about beating Donald Trump. I talked to black voter after black voter who was thinking about electability and who was thinking about who could win, and certainly his rhetoric of unity.

But it's going to be about delivering. And that includes the George Floyd Justice in Policing Act. That includes the black white wealth cap that includes the kind of robust set of issues that the community cares about. And we say every night, and every night it's going to come up against that Senate filibuster.

It's going to come up against the realities of a divided Congress. But that does not change the expectation of the people who put him in the Oval Office who will expect for him to deliver on that.

LEMON: Astead, John, thank you so much. I appreciate it.

I want to turn now to the latest on the police killing of Andrew Brown Jr. CNN's Jason Carroll, live for us in Elizabeth City, North Carolina, tonight. Jason, good evening to you. There's a curfew in effect. The public has still not seen the bodycam footage of the fatal shooting. But CNN has obtained this new video tonight of some of the final moments before Andrew Brown was killed. What does it show, Jason?

JASON CARROLL, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (on camera): That's correct, Don. It's surveillance video. And the surveillance video shows the sheriff's deputies just as they're arriving at Brown's home just moments before the shooting took place.

An attorney for Brown's family basically saying that they've been able to pull together certain aspects of what happened on this surveillance tape and they say just moments after that pickup truck arrived at Brown's House, they estimate that about four seconds later they started shooting.

[23:10:13]

And basically, what they've had to do, Don, is taken things like surveillance tape, 911 tapes. They got an opportunity, as you know, to look at about 20 seconds of bodycam footage. This is what they've been able to do to sort of pull together what's happened. That's why they're asking for more transparency from the County sheriff's department here on the ground, more accountability.

They want the sheriff's office here to release all of the bodycam footage that they have, to release all of the bodycam footage that they have. But again, they're having to piece together what happened to Brown based on things that they've been able to gather through their own investigative process.

LEMON: And Jason, let's talk -- this private autopsy, because the attorneys for the Brown family released a private autopsy.

CARROLL: Right.

LEMON: What did they find?

CARROLL (on camera): Something else that they've done, Don, you're absolutely right. They had their own autopsy done here. And basically, what they found is they say it's been pretty telling. They found that Brown was shot five times. They say that the first four shot hit his right arm. They say once again that his hands were on the steering wheel. They say the fifth shot was the fatal shot.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

WAYNE KENDALL, BROWN FAMILY ATTORNEY: We now know, because we have not been able to get any official documentation concerning this shooting, that this, in fact, was a fatal wound to the back of Mr. Brown's head as he was leaving the site, trying to evade being shot at by these particular law enforcement officers who we believe did nothing but a straight-out execution.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CARROLL (on camera): So, again, Don, you got the family getting their own independent autopsy together as part of their evidence. You got them pulling together and finding surveillance video, 911 tapes. Again, this is why what they're saying is, what they need here on the ground is more transparency and they need it from the County sheriff's department, Don.

LEMON: Jason Carroll, reporting live for us tonight. Jason, thank you so much. I appreciate that.

I want to turn now to Harry Daniels, he is an attorney for Andrew Brown Jr.'s family. Attorney Daniels, I appreciate you joining us. Thank you so much. What stands out to you and the family in this new video showing sheriff's deputies rolling up in a pickup truck to arrest Andrew Brown?

HARRY DANIELS, ATTORNEY FOR ANDREW BROWN JR.'S FAMILY: It confirms what we already suspected. This was a calculated approach towards Andrew, blocked him in, trapped him in. Once the deputies got out of the truck, seconds later they started shooting.

The autopsy report shows that Andrew was shot in his arm. He tried to get away. He tried to back up, try to get away. He was shot once he maneuvered his vehicle, tried to flee, save his life. He was shot in the back of the head. That proved to be the fatal shot.

LEMON: CNN looked at the video and it is not exactly clear what is being said when the shooting started. But certainly the bodycam footage would answer a lot of these questions, right?

DANIELS: It would. And that's exactly what we're seeking, seeking the release of the bodycam footage, the entire bodycam footage. The 20- second snippet that was showed, the redaction, once the video begun started, it already -- the shooting already begun, it already started which is consistent with the street video camera that we was able to obtain that the shooting had started.

The County attorney position was that they were only going to show the pertinent part. You would think that the pertinent part would be once the gun fire -- has started, that would be pertinent in a shooting death investigation, but the County thought that wasn't pertinent. But we believe the full body camera being revealed will show exactly what happened.

LEMON: Attorney Daniels, the private autopsy -- I talked to Jason. Jason discussed it a little bit before we brought you in. But this private autopsy that you all released shows that Andrew Brown was fatally shot in the back of the head. What does that tell you about the officers' response?

DANIELS: Well, I mean, it speaks for itself. Yet not just shot in the back of the head. You had bullets riddled in the back of Mr. Brown's vehicle on the right passenger side, the back rear quarter panel. And ultimately, the kill shot was in the back of the head. So, if it's in the back of his head, he's obviously trying to get away. He's not a danger to officers.

[23:15:02]

There's no indication that he was trying to hit anybody, run anybody over. In fact, what the video revealed based on the (inaudible) in the room, as well as Mr. Brown's son, Kalel, that he was even being shot at -- he was still trying to avoid injuring the officer or any threat to the officers. They were the only threat that day. So a person who is being shot at, he's still trying to -- he's still concerned about their safety. Honestly, they weren't concerned about his safety nor concerned about his life.

LEMON: Has the family gotten any information from the police about what they say happened or why?

DANIELS: No. No. The information that was reviewed, the snippet, was the only bit of information that we received in it. And let me be very clear, Don. That snippet is horrific. It shows Mr. Brown's arms, I mean, hands on the steering wheel. Mr. Brown getting shot while his hands are on the steering wheel. Mr. Brown tried to leave, so he's not fleeing. Let me be very clear. He's not trying to resist arrest. He's not fleeing. This is a man getting shot at.

He has a right just as anybody else, a right to life and he's trying to exercise that right by saving his life while others are trying to execute him. And even when he's -- he's going to get away. He's going to get away, Don. He's going to save himself. Boom, shoot him in the back of the head, killing him, he's vehicle is strike a tree and he's gone.

He has seven children fatherless, brother lost, son lost, grandson, an absolute hole in this community. Elizabeth City, Pasquotank County, this s a tragedy on both ends tragedy that Mr. Brown lost his life prematurely.

Tragedy that this County government, the county (inaudible), the district attorney, the County attorneys, no accountability. Don, they redacted the officers' face. They redacted the officers' guns. These people are paid by the taxpayers. The guns are paid by the taxpayers. The citizen, the taxpayers have a right to see the public officials operate in their fiscal capacity.

In this case, you don't have the right, according to Pasquotank County government. You don't have a right. But they're allowed to shoot and kill one of their own and no accountability thus far.

LEMON: Thank you, Attorney Harry Daniels. I appreciate you joining us. Thanks so much.

DANIELS: I appreciate it.

LEMON (on camera): The private autopsy finds Andrew Brown Jr. as we had been reporting, according to family, shot five times. I'm going to ask a forensic pathologist what that autopsy tells him.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KHALIL FEREBEE, ANDREW BROWN JR.'S SON: It's obvious he was trying to get away. It's obvious, and they're going to shoot him in the back of the head? Man, (BEEP) that's not right. That's not right at all, man.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

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[23:20:00]

LEMON: As we have been discussing the family of Andrew Brown Jr. releasing a private autopsy that found that he was fatally shot in the back of the head. Lawyers for the family say that Brown had been shot four times in the right arm and was trying to drive away from officers when he was hit in the head. So, I want to bring in now forensic pathologist Dr. Cyril Wecht.

Doctor, thank you very much. Let's talk about this autopsy revealing that four shots to the right arm and one fatal shot to the head based on this information that you are reading about and that you see here. What can you tell us? Is it clear that Andrew Brown was trying to drive away from the deputies at the time that he was shot, as they say?

CYRIL WECHT, FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST: Well, it's clear to me that his back was turned to the officers. The bullet wound that killed him entered in the back of his head and moved slightly to the right and forward. That shot clearly was fired with him facing away from the police.

In light of the other four shots in the right arm and shoulder, it seems to me based on the information I've been given if that is correct, those shots having been fired through the windshield that he had attempted to depart. He was backing up and then turned around.

As he turned around in the car that is, then they shot him. So, it's incredible. I look at the shots in the arm, by the way. It looks to me like he was already -- this is reconstruction on my part. I don't have all the information and the measurements from the information given to me.

But looks to me like he was shot, and the one bullet in the arm, and then moved somewhat toward upward a little bit. Bottom to top is upward. And then the other shots similarly. Looked though like he was ducking and juking, turning to his left. That's the way the shots, two of which are grazing wounds.

None of these four shots was fatal. None of these four shots would have led to death. I don't know if any major vessels were perforated. The pathologist does not state that in the couple of pages I received. But there is no mention of any significant hemorrhage. So he clearly was wounded and he was attempting to flee, as I reconstruct it looking at the autopsy report. And then inexplicably he's shot in the back of the head.

[23:25:00]

What I don't understand as a medical legal consultant, I do that work as a medical legal consultant and also as a forensic pathologist, I understand they're there with a drug search warrant. I don't see any reference to any kind of weapon. I don't see anything that posed a hazard, a threat to any of the police officers or to any bystanders.

Why this kind of shooting ensued, they knew they were there, I believe at his home, his car where he lived. So what's the problem? Where's he going to drive? South America or Europe? What is the problem here? What is the problem?

Taking out the guns -- And I don't know by the way whether they're all from the same gun, only a fragment of one bullet was recovered. The other bullets apparently had been recovered by the original pathologist. We don't know that. But we can infer that reasonably.

So I do not understand as a former coroner, if I were reviewing this case and conducting it public open inquest, I would want to know from the police officers, what in the world were you doing.

LEMON: Yes. Well, Doctor Cyril Wecht, always great information from you. Thank you. I appreciate you joining us. Thanks.

WECHT: Thank you. Thank you, Don, take care.

LEMON (on camera): Conspiracies, lies, gaslighting, is that all the GOP has now?

Plus, a new incentive for getting that vaccine.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DR. ROCHELLE WALENSKY, CHIEF INFECTIOUS DISEASES DIVISION, MASS GENERAL HOSPITAL: Over the past year, we have spent a lot of time telling Americans what they cannot do, what they should not do. Today I'm going to tell you some of the things you can do if you are fully vaccinated.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

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[23:30:00]

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LEMON: Take this, a GOP outrage machine churning out another lie in a futile attempt to dunk on Democrats. This time, Republicans promoting a bogus New York Post story that claimed with no evidence that copies of the Vice President Kamala Harris' children's book titled "Superheroes are Everywhere," were given to migrant kids at the California shelter in their care packages. OK, so the chairman of the Republican Party, that's the one spreading the lie online, asking if the VP is profiting from Biden's border crisis. And the former Trump White House press secretary, Sean Spicer, well known for his lies about crowd size, complaining the Biden White House has yet to answer for the fake story.

The Post sends correcting elements of the story and CNN fact-checker Daniel Dale finding that it was just one of Harris's books donated from a book drive. For the folks watching at home, do you feel like you're having deja vu? You are not.

It was only last night that we talked about Republicans freaking out over a fake Biden policy to cut people's meat intake, even though no such policy existed. We did this a few weeks ago over Dr. Seuss. And who could forget the lies pedalled about President Biden's health or all the COVID mistruths?

This is a vicious cycle created by Republicans with lies promoted as truths as a way to score political points, really. And then there is the biggest lie of them all, the one that -- that incited a deadly riot at the Capitol, the big lie that Donald Trump won the 2020 election. It didn't end in 2020.

In Arizona, this past week, Republicans re-counted millions of ballots even though there is no evidence of widespread fraud in that state. Hours wasted to prove something that simply does not exist. Are you tired of it?

It's not real, Republicans, Trumpists. The election wasn't stolen. Just stop it. It's exhausting. You're wasting your time. There's no doubt truth remains under fire from Republicans. But at a certain point, you have to accept. That's how they like it. That's who they are.

Lots to discuss. CNN's senior political analyst John Avlon is here. CNN's senior -- CNN's political commentator Amanda Carpenter. We're going to talk about this BS next.

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[23:35:00]

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LEMON: Republicans moving on to the next big lie about the Biden administration, spreading a false story about Vice President Harris's children's book being given to migrant kids at a California shelter in their care packages. That is after they pushed bogus claims about President Biden wanting to force Americans to eat less red meat. There's another and another and another.

So joining me now are CNN's senior political analyst John Avlon and CNN's political commentator Amanda Carpenter. We have a lot to talk about. I want to talk about that, and I also want to get your -- your thoughts on Officer Michael Fanone interview as well. Let's start with these things and knock down some of these lies and conspiracy theories first. Good evening to both of you.

Amanda, first, it was Dr. Seuss, Mr. Potato Head. Now, the rioters spreading full on lies about Biden and burgers, Harris and children's books. Is the GOP willing to latch onto anything to try to smear the Biden administration?

And the real question is, does it speak to how desperate they are to get something on Joe Biden since he seems to be doing very well, not seems to be doing, he is doing very well and he's polling well, they're just trying to find anything, throw it against the wall, see if it sticks?

AMANDA CARPENTER, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR, FORMER SENIOR COMMUNICATIONS ADVISOR AND SPEECHWRITER FOR SENATOR TED CRUZ: Yeah. I mean, it's kind of incredible. Most of these stories, you know, a couple years ago, wouldn't have even made it to the topics list for "Fox and Friends" because they're so -- I mean, well, they're false. But they're just so incredibly frivolous.

I think this speaks to the hold that Donald Trump continues to have on the Republican Party from his golden hermit palace down in Florida, is that they -- they really don't know how to have a policy discussion because they're still so scared of alienating him.

[23:40:08]

CARPENTER: No one knows -- Donald Trump never had a real policy agenda. So, how can they actually fight the Biden administration on anything substantive when they don't know when he's going to pop up and decides to, you know, tweet this or that? I'm surprised he's been this quiet for so long. But I really think that they are only doing these frivolous things because of that.

LEMON: Yeah. John, Biden passed nearly $2 trillion COVID relief bill. He is hitting his pledges on vaccines, working on this massive infrastructure plan. Are they doubling down on all these conspiracies and lies because they have no good answers to his policies?

JOHN AVLON, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: They could have answers, they should have answers, but they don't have the muscle memory, right? I mean, the disinformation is so dumb it reeks of desperation, and that's what's key here. Lies are (INAUDIBLE) ecosystem. That's a given right now.

But look how desperate it is to try to create these manufactured controversies out a whole cloth and hope they stick. And, you know, for Dr. Seuss on down to the, you know, banning burgers and the nonsense about the Kamala Harris book, and look what the reporter who resigned from The New York Post said -- quote -- "She was ordered to write an incorrect story."

And that speaks to a deeper kind of corruption or rock that has gotten in this right now. Now, we are deeply divided country, but they are still running that same play. But it is desperate. It is a sign of weakness. Make no mistake.

LEMON: Listen, Amanda, we are a deeply divided country, but we don't have to be deeply divided in that way. I think the interview with Officer Fanone showed that. But think about it. The whole reason that someone like Officer Fanone is in the position that he is in, you know, suffering the injuries that he suffered in the middle of a riot, is because of another big lie by Trump and the Republicans.

CARPENTER: I know. And the party has not even come close to coming to grips for the role it played in fomenting that insurrection. I mean, you have a couple people speaking out, Liz Cheney, Adam Kinzinger, you know, other -- people like me hit the Bulwark. We haven't had a real conversation.

I was so thrilled that he decided to talk to you, Don. You could tell that he -- you earned his trust and we're all better for it for hearing his side of the story because people like him have been forgotten. They were on the front lines and it's really -- it's really hard to think of how somebody like Kevin McCarthy walks into the Capitol today, past police officers who put their lives on the line, and continues to downplay this thing.

People like Senator Ron Johnson who says it was a festive atmosphere. And you have all these MAGA mouths, another network talking like it was no big deal. It was an extremely big deal. I can't say enough good things about Officer Fanone. God bless him and protect him and every man and woman like him.

LEMON: John?

AVLON: That's right. Look, that interview was so powerful because of its authenticity, because you took the time to build a relationship and it read and it breaks down all these artificial divides that too often dominate our debates.

You know, that he is a Capitol Hill police officer who was attacked by a mob that bought into the big lie, showing that you can be pro-cop and anti-big lie, and these things that are used to divide us are fundamentally false, they don't reflect reality in the way we live, and that's why it was so powerful.

LEMON: Yeah. He's actually with the Metropolitan Police Department but --

AVLON: My apologizes.

LEMON: I'm picking up what you're putting down.

(LAUGHTER)

LEMON: The interesting thing, though, John, is I think that out of that interview I want to talk about, this is a lesson for Republicans and Democrats. Quite frankly, I think it's a lesson for Republicans and even for law enforcement because people sit here, people sit at home, and they think because I and others have to report on what happens with law enforcement and police-involved shootings, that we are there for anti-police, and we are not. AVLON: That's right.

LEMON: What we're for is we're for the good police officers, making police departments and policing better in America. And I think Michael Fanone is really, you know, the poster officer for that movement. And so one can report on how police departments need to change without being anti-police.

Yet the folks, Amanda, who are supposedly pro-police, are the ones who are saying that what happened to Officer Fanone was fake and that it was celebratory and that it was somehow good or what he experienced was not real or does not exist.

[23:45:00]

CARPENTER: Release the footage. I felt that was one of the most important things that he said. He wants his body camera footage released. It's his footage. It belongs to him. If he wants it out, my God, let's see it, because he said it would prove how violent that riot was.

And I think that would be important. That should be consensus between Republicans and Democrats. When there is footage available of these kinds of events, put it out so we can have consensus on what happened.

AVLON: Yeah.

LEMON: You're right. Release the footage. Metro police, mayor of D.C., release the footage. The public deserves it and the officer as well, the officers. Thank you, guys. That's got to be the last word. I appreciate it. Thank you very much.

Want to dine outdoors with friends? The CDC says go for it, if you've been vaccinated.

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[23:50:00]

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LEMON (on camera): New guidance from the CDC today. They say you don't need to wear a mask outside if you're vaccinated, the exception being if you're in a big crowd. The president says it's another good reason to get vaccinated.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: For those who haven't gotten their vaccination yet, especially if you're younger or think you don't need it, this is another great reason to go get vaccinated. Now. Now.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON (on camera): So, let's break this down here with Erin Bromage, the CNN contributor and professor at the University of Massachusetts Dartmouth, the very smart gentleman with a very smart glass on your screen right now.

Erin, hi. Let's go through it here, the CDC guidelines. The CDC guidelines, people -- they are for people when they're outdoors, right? They're saying everyone can safely walk, run, bike outdoors. Are those rules essentially the same for vaccinated and unvaccinated people?

ERIN BROMAGE, CNN CONTRIBUTOR, ASSOCIATE PROFESSOR OF BIOLOGY AT UNIVERSITY OF MASSACHUSETTS DARMOUTH: Yeah, and they've been that way for a long time. We've known that outdoor transmission is really rare, like 20 times less than indoors, maybe even much, much more than that.

We've hung on to that particular guidance for such a long period of time just because the number of cases, the hospitalizations that we're seeing, they've sort of put this full-court press on to trying to control the infection rate.

But, you know, transmission outdoors, unless you're in a really tightly packed, crowded space, masks are really not needed.

LEMON: OK. So, now, when it came down today, I was at an outdoor place, right, and some people had masks on, others didn't. If you had a private -- I don't know. Maybe this is not your bailiwick. If you're in a private establishment, can they still demand that you wear a mask?

BROMAGE: When you go into a restaurant or a bar or a shop and it's a private --

LEMON: Or a gym.

BROMAGE: -- have the right. Just the same ways they can say no shirt, no shoes, and no entry.

LEMON: OK.

BROMAGE: We've all got used to that. So, why not with a mask?

LEMON: Got it. OK. I just wanted the make sure. And if you're vaccinated, they say that you can even safely get together and dine outdoors with friends. Is the main difference that you can now do that with people outside of your own household? What's the difference here?

BROMAGE: Yeah. So, I use a slightly different guidance. But what they've put forward falls into line with what I'm doing. So, in the past, where I used to wear a mask, I now don't wear a mask. So if I'm outdoors with mixed households, I don't feel the need to wear a mask because I'm vaccinated. I'm not concerned about their status.

But the outside presents a much lower risk. Where I used to avoid places in the past such as restaurants, tightly packed shopping centers, things like that, I now will go to those and wear a mask. So the vaccination has allowed me to shift what my daily activities are, you know, by -- you know, substantially, so that I can sort of reengage into society a little bit better.

So they just give me that -- so mask has come off for me in certain places and then now I'm going into places that I wasn't in the past.

LEMON: Isn't it a little bit dangerous, though, I think -- how do you know? How do you know who is double vaccinated or fully vaccinated, whatever? You know, everyone is calling it the double Vs. You know, I'm double Vs, I'm good, right, double vaxxed and walk around and say that. But how do you know if people are double vaccinated or not?

BROMAGE: Yeah. I mean, you don't. And so it's your own individual risk assessment that you're doing. So I look at my family. My wife and I are about the same age. We've got two young children in good health. The risks to our family for severe disease are really quite low.

We don't mix with older people. Our grandparents live in Australia or they live in Virginia. So we don't see them very much. So our chances of being infected and then infecting somebody that could be -- have more severe outcomes is very low. So for us, we're able to take a little bit more.

You know, if you're living in a multigenerational home, you've got people that potentially could be susceptible, you do need to keep the guard up to provide that extra layer of protection. So it needs to be an assessment that each person does. And the CDC provides you with guidance on where and when. It also needs to be an individual choice as well.

LEMON: Yeah. So, you still need to be careful. And I would think, listen, I'm pretty much honestly -- I'm pretty much going to wear my mask the same way that I was wearing it before for now.

[23:55:06]

LEMON: It's just that if I'm outdoors running or exercising or with a group of people walking or something like that, then I probably won't feel the need to wear a mask. Indoors, restaurants, I'll probably have the same sort of behavior until more people get vaccinated. Is that fairly safe place to be?

BROMAGE: Yeah, and it's going to be a really confusing couple of months now as we're with that half vaxxed, half vaxxed, fully vaxxed side of things.

LEMON: OK.

BROMAGE: So we're just going to look at where we are.

LEMON: I got to tell you, though, in the winter months, I'm going to be wearing that mask. You know why? Because I usually get the flu every year and I didn't get it this year and last year.

BROMAGE: Yeah, a lot of us saw that.

LEMON: And it's because of the mask. I know it, because I always get the flu, and I didn't this time. Thank you, sir. I appreciate it, Erin Bromage.

BROMAGE: Good seeing you, Don.

LEMON: And thanks for watching, everyone. Our coverage continues.

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