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Don Lemon Tonight

Gaetz Wingman Wrote Confession Letter Saying That Congressman Paid For Sex With A Minor; President Biden In Georgia Selling Plans For Jobs, Infrastructure And Families; Sen. Tim Scott And His Speech The Future Of The Republican Party; Don Interviews Sen. Amy Klobuchar (D-MN). Aired 11p-12a ET

Aired April 29, 2021 - 23:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[23:00:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DON LEMON, CNN HOST: Breaking news on the investigation of Congressman Matt Gaetz. The Daily Beast is reporting that the Congressman's friend and wing man wrote a confession letter saying both he and the Congressman paid for sex with several women and a 17-year-old girl. The Congressman's spokesperson denying that tonight to CNN. We are going to have much, much more on that in just a moment.

That as the President Joe Biden is marking 100 days in office on the road in Georgia promoting his multitrillion dollar package of plans for jobs, infrastructure and American families. Calling his ambitious ideas, a once in a generation investment in America.

Tomorrow he heads to Pennsylvania. Also, saying today that he does not believe the American people are racist and Rudy Giuliani slamming the raid and seizure by federal officials of electronic devices from his home and office.

Tonight, in a TV interview, claiming the warrant was illegal and denying he did anything wrong.

There is a lot to discuss now. CNN's senior political analyst, Nia Malika Henderson, joins me and political commentator Amanda Carpenter. I'm so happy to have both of you on. I got the 18 tonight. Good evening.

Amanda, let's start with this new Daily Beast reporting that Congressman Matt Gaetz friend wrote a confession letter saying that both he and the congressman paid for sex with several women including a 17-year-old girl. The letter was part of the Joel Greenberg's attempt to get a presidential pardon from Trump with the help of Roger Stone.

Now, we've reached out. I got to say all of this stuff right Amanda, just so we can be responsible here. We have reached out to Greenberg's attorney. He said no comment citing attorney/client privilege. This is how Matt Gaetz spokesperson responded. Congressman Gaetz never paid for sex, nor he had sex with a 17-year-old as an adult. Congressman Gaetz says no -- has no role in advocating for or against a pardon for Greenberg and doubts such a pardon has ever even -- was ever even considered.

OK. So, this is getting worse and worse. How much longer can the GOP stay silent about this, Amanda?

AMANDA CARPENTER, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, I think they are going to stay quiet about it and just let justice run its course. But the element of the story that I think is particularly interesting, if true is the fact that Roger Stone was apparently selling pardons after he, himself, got a commutation and a pardon.

I mean, the fact that these people seem to have no reticence about their actions. And if it is true that Greenberg was giving $250,000 dollars in Bitcoin to try to get that pardon, you know, there is questions for White House staffers that go far beyond Roger Stone there.

LEMON: So, listen. Nia, CNN has not seen the letter, cannot confirm the details in the Daily Beast stories. But Chris and I spoke with one of the reporters, Jose Pagliery. Take a listen to that and we will talk about it, OK?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOSE PAGLIERY, CNN MONEY INVESTIGATOR REPORTER: Let me tell you. This letter is pretty explicit. It states very clearly that Joel Greenberg got paid by Matt Gaetz to acquire young women for sex and that they had sex with a teen. This is the first time that we are seeing it word for word explained what exactly they did and the thing that really jumps out at me at this letter is the idea that he goes, I did see the acts occur first-hand. This is going to be pivotal for prosecutors as they go after Matt Gaetz.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: So, listen. Don't get mad at me about this question, Nia, especially with the current state of the Republican Party. But is there any way for Gaetz to survive this politically?

NIA-MALIKA HENDERSON, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL REPORTER: You know, quite possibly. He has mounted a sort of a Trumpian defense in saying that this is all a hoax, they are trying to tear me down, because of what I believe in and what I stand for and that I'm a Trumper. So, quite possibly.

I mean, he could have folks in that district who are weighted to that idea that he is under attack by the Feds and they could, quite simply, vote him back into office if he runs for re-election next year. You know, his problem is, obviously, the letter, maybe some of this evidence that the Feds are clearly looking at him and scrutinizing him and probably have some records to build a case around him.

But, you know, I mean, it wouldn't surprise me if the Republican Party of voters, rank and file voter in his district put him back into office. You know down the line, maybe he would have to resign or something. You know, if you think about folks on the Hill, they aren't big fans of Matt Gaetz. [23:05:15]

They are -- I think as Amanda said, basically waiting for this to play out in the justice system to see where these lands. But he doesn't have a lot of allies on the Hill. I think probably Marjorie Taylor- Greene and that's pretty a lonely club if that is your only fan.

LEMON: Yes. Jim Jordan as well. I think --

HENDERSON: Jim Jordan, that's right, yeah.

LEMON: So, Nia, listen. President Biden spoke to NBC news earlier and was asked about Senator Tim Scott's comments that American isn't racist. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: No, I don't think the American people are racist. But I think after 400 years, African Americans have been left in a position where they are so far behind the 8-ball in terms of education, health, in terms of opportunity. I think the overhang from all of the Jim Crow and before that slavery, have had a cost and we have to deal with it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: So, Nia, listen. Senator Scott is trying to get something done with Democrats on police reform. But there were a whole lot of other Senators -- there's only one black Senator, right? There are a whole lot of other Senators who could have responded to the president's speech last night. Do you think Republicans putting him forward, is that proof that they are not racist?

HENDERSON: Well, listen. There have been any number of great non-white hoax that the Republican Party has kind of put forward over the last many years. Somebody like Bobby (inaudible), Marco Rubio, who was on the cover of Time magazine literally as the savior. And Tim Scott, I think is the latest iteration of that.

You know, and we will see what his future is. I mean, there's been all sorts of speculation that maybe he wants to run for higher office. He of course, gave a (inaudible) some speech about Donald Trump at his nominating convention and he is a historic figure. I thought his delivery was great, I thought of he was -- not great in terms of the fact. You know, on one hand he said that, you know, America is not a racist country and then described the racist things that happened to him.

So, there was that -- but listen, I think the focus is really on Biden. This is an extraordinary moment in American history to have an American president talk about racism as much as he does. Talk about systemic racism as much as he does. And then the idea that the federal government can move to re-dress some of those historical wrongs that obviously have modern-day present-day implications.

LEMON: Amanda, listen. Let's talk about Mitchell McConnell. And you know, Nia just mentioned this about Tim Scott may be having, you know, higher aspirations. He is saying that Tim Scott -- Mitchell McConnell is saying that Tim Scott is a future of the Republican Party. OK. This is a Party where members were laying out plans for a caucus on Anglo- Saxon traditions earlier this month. The party was -- some of the members defended white insurrectionist but said that they've be scared if Black Lives Matter protesters stormed the Capitol. So, what gives here?

CARPENTER: Yes. I mean, this is a problem. Until the GOP confronts the facts of the insurrection and what led to it, it's going to be Donald Trump's Party, right? That is the power and control that Trump has over the party. And one of the weirdest parts about Tim Scott's response when he painted President Biden as the divider in chief and just totally ignored what happened in the insurrection.

And I see a lot of what Tim Scott was doing in that speech was quite Trumpy. When he was coming out and saying we are not a racist country, I read that as Tim Scott jumping straight on into the culture war. Listen. You had in that address Joe Biden composing trillion of new spending, big government plans. You know, FDR style transformational government and Tim Scott dove into the culture war.

He had good things to talk about. It was (inaudible) for him to dismiss racism when he is working on the police reform bill in the Senate. There is a reason why there's so much interest in passing that bill. It's because everyone saw what happened to George Floyd and realized, that yes, racism is a problem in the country.

And I like Joe Biden's answer saying, you know, the American people, you know, we are not racist, but we do have things to grapple with. That is the exact right tone and when you just look at what Tim Scott is trying to do, he is trying to check too many boxes to still appease that Trump base and I don't see that as a future. It's just a different person saying the same things.

LEMON: Well, a different person. And again, look. Let's state the obvious here. Why would they pick Tim Scott?

[23:10:00]

The only Black Senator to give the response. I'm just saying. Let's just be honest. We know why. Thank you both. I appreciate it.

HENDERSON: Thanks, Don.

(LAUGHTER)

LEMON: It is what it is.

LEMON: Joining me now, Democratic Senator Amy Klobuchar of Minnesota. She is the author of a new book. What -- wow! Antitrust. Taking on monopoly power from the gilded age to the digital age. I'm so happy. I can't wait to read this book. Thank you for joining me and congratulations.

SEN. AMY KLOBUCHAR (D-MN): Thank you, Don. There is also over 100 cartoons, so there you go.

LEMON: Oh, really? Good.

KLOBUCHAR: You just go through. A lot of things. Trying to make -- one of my goals here was to make it so that people can learn about the history of this in fun ways like the woman who invented the monopoly board was actually hated monopolies and then she got kind of sold out and it became a pro monopoly game. Or the Ida Tarbell who is a muck breaker who took on standard oil.

So, I tell these stories and then make the case for we have taken on monopolies in the past in such a big way in this country including the breakup of AT&T, the breakup of standard oil and now it's time to do something again. Because we literally are in our own gilded age because of tact but also because of a lot of other consolidated companies in this country.

LEMON: Well, there you are. You have talked to us about the book. So, we got that in. Thank you so much! Seriously. I can't wait to read it. You know, I read your last book. I had to read it, because --

KLOBUCHAR: You did?

LEMON: I interview you so many times as you were running for president. I feel like I know more about your life than anybody else besides you. But let's move on, let's talk about the issues.

KLOBUCHAR: My husband does.

LEMON: Yes, your husband knows a lot about you. You know, I'm just saying that stuff. So, let's talk about Rudy Giuliani, denying all of the wrongdoing, claiming that it's all political. But the Washington Post is reporting Senator that he was warned in late 2019 that he was the target of a Russian influence operation trying to damage then candidate Biden politically.

How much trouble -- listen. You were a former prosecutor. Am I correct? A former attorney, right?

KLOBUCHAR: Yes.

LEMON: How much trouble could he be facing?

KLOBUCHAR: You know, one thing I've known from my job in the past is you don't know until all of the facts come out. But they clearly felt that they had enough information to go forward to search his personal information. And this may be stemming, of course, from what was going on with a Ukraine, and maybe going on with what was going on with Russia and his activities. But one thing that I found out for the first time just from the news reports is that he had been warned about this about how Russia was instigating these misinformation campaigns against Joe Biden.

And of course, I thought it was interesting. The FBI because they do periodically tell people, because they are warning them to not be tools of a foreign country and basically asking them, OK, if this happens to you, tell us, right? I don't think that sounds like what ended up happening with Rudy Giuliani. So, we don't know until any kind of action is filed, but this is actually quite serious that this has happened.

LEMON: Local media in your home state of Minnesota is reporting that the Justice Department is planning to charge Derek Chauvin and three other police officers who had federal civil rights violations related to George Floyd's death. How significant is that?

KLOBUCHAR: Also, significant. You know, we know how horrific this crime was, this murder and it was a moment of redemption when that jury verdict was read. A moment of redemption for those witnesses, those just regular people who have been carrying this burden, wishing in their own words that they could have done more to save George Floyd.

And when I listen to them tell those stories on the stand, I thought, no, it's on all of us to do more. And the fact that the Justice Department has now stepped in and as one to examine the practices at the Minneapolis Police Department and, two, and this is only news reports, are considering these cases, I think it's really important.

And the second thing about this is we need to pass the George Floyd justice and policing act and my friend Cory Booker, who is an incredible leader in the Senate, so Tim Scott is not the only African American Senator. I will point out. And Cory has been leading this bill. Of course, Kamala Harris, our vice president, who was incredible up there on the DIAS for the first moment where Joe Biden could turn to her and say, madam, vice president, she also led had this bill when she was in the Senate and I'm a cosponsor.

[23:15:00]

So, Cory is working very hard with Tim Scott, with House members to get this bill over the finish line. I think that would be true justice. The verdict was accountability. We need true justice.

LEMON: You know, I should have said the only black Republican Senator.

KLOBUCHAR: Yeah. I know. I was trying to be nice about correcting you.

LEMON: No -- you can always -- listen. I know you can correct me. I didn't say it right. It came out wrong. So thank you.

KLOBUCHAR: Yes. That's OK. I just clarified it for the record.

(LAUGHTER)

LEMON: Thank you, Senator. Listen. I'm so happy to have you on again. The book is Antitrust. So antitrust, (inaudible) state it. Taking on monopoly power from the gilded age to the digital age. Always a pleasure to have you on and good luck with the book.

KLOBUCHAR: Thanks a lot, Don.

LEMON: Thank you very much. Tonight, Rudy Giuliani denying any wrongdoing after federal

authorities armed with search warrants seized electronic devices from his home and office. For more than two years now, he has been the focus of an investigation by the Justice Department concerning his activities in Ukraine.

I want to bring in now Kan Nawaday, the former corruption and fraud prosecutor for the U.S. Attorney's office for the Southern District of New York. We are so happy to have you back on the program. Thank you so much. I appreciate it.

KAN NAWADAY, FORMER FEDERAL CORRUPTION PROSECUTOR: Thank you so much for having me, Don. I'm glad to be here.

LEMON: So, I want you to listen to how Rudy Giuliani is defending himself tonight and then we will talk. Here it is.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RUDY GIULIANI, ATTORNEY FOR PRESIDENT TRUMP: That warrant is completely illegal. The only way you can get a search warrant is if you can show that there is some evidence that the person is going to destroy the evidence. Or is going to run away with the evidence. I've had it for two years and I haven't destroyed it. And they also got it from the iCloud! So there was no -- there was no justification for that warrant. It is an illegal, unconstitutional warrant.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: What do you think of his defense?

NAWADAY: He's wrong, legally wrong. Flat out. You get a search warrant by proving to a judge that you have reason to believe, probable cause to believe that there is evidence of crime located at the place you're searching. It has nothing to do with evidence that is going to be destroyed at all.

So, he's wrong about that. And, you know, I understand why he is putting up that defense because he has got to say something, if I was his lawyer, I would tell him not to say anything, frankly.

LEMON: The former lead U.S. Attorney at the Southern District of New York, former mayor of New York attorney to the president, I mean, there must have been a real burden of proof for prosecutors to get a warrant. No?

NAWADAY: You're absolutely right, Don. Absolutely. There are so many hoops that you have to go through to search an attorney's office or home. Put aside that Giuliani was the attorney for the former president. A regular attorney. You have to get DOJ main justice approval. For something like this, they had to go all the way up to the A.G. to Merrick Garland to get approval. And for them for the Southern District of New York prosecutors to do that, they really went through a lot of hoops to do that, meaning they had real reason to do it. LEMON: Kan, Giuliani is a second Trump attorney on the wrong end of a

search warrant. We all remember the first one, it was Michael Cohen, who spent time in jail, ended up cooperating with investigators. This is what he told CNN just today.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MICHAEL COHEN, PRESIDENT TRUMP'S FORMER PERSONAL ATTORNEY: Guess what? There's going to be a ton of stuff. I'm certain of it. There is going to be a ton of documentation and rest assured, Donald is not happy about this.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: So, Michael Cohen thinks that Giuliani is going to cooperate. Talk to me about the legal risks for the former president if he does, indeed, cooperate.

NAWADAY: It would be devastating. Absolutely devastating. If it turns out that Rudy Giuliani starts to cooperate against anybody, frankly, because that means that he has information that inculpates the people he is cooperating against. You don't get a cooperation agreement with any U.S. Attorney's office unless you can help them with the case, unless you can -- unless you have inculpatory evidence against someone else and we know that one of the potential targets is former President Donald Trump.

LEMON: Yeah. While I have you here, Kan, I want to ask you about the Daily Beast reporting, Congressman Matt Gaetz, friend and wing man Joel Greenberg wrote a confession letter allegedly saying both he and the Congressman paid for sex allegedly with several women and a 17- year-old girl. His spokesperson is denying the allegations. Legally, what is this looking like for him?

[23:20:04]

NAWADAY: You know, Don, with this one, it's hard to say. I really cannot comment too much about it, but it's hard to say.

LEMON: Yeah. We will leave it there. Thank you, sir. I appreciate you coming on. Always a pleasure to see you.

NAWADAY: Thank you.

LEMON: Three men charged by a federal grand jury with hate crimes in connection with the death of Ahmaud Arbery. A 25-year-old black man shot and killed while jogging in Georgia in a neighborhood there. I'm going to talk to Ahmaud Arbery's mother, that's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: Three Georgia men already facing state murder charges in the death of Ahmaud Arbery more than a year ago, now facing federal hate crimes and attempted kidnapping charges as well. Arbery, the 25-year- old black man was out jogging near Brunswick, Georgia, in February of 2020 when he was chases down and shot to death. [23:25:03]

So joining me is Wanda Cooper, Ahmaud Arbery's mother. Mrs. Cooper, it's good to see you again. Thank you so much for joining me. I really appreciate it.

WANDA COOPER, AHMAUD ARBERY'S MOTHER: Thank you. Thanks for having me again.

LEMON: These charges are good news. I would imagine in your son's case. Are you feeling confident that the system is working at it should and moving forward towards justice for Ahmaud?

COOPER: Yes. Having seen the news yesterday was assurance that we are working in the right direction to get justice for Ahmaud. So it's very good news yesterday.

LEMON: On the one-year anniversary of Ahmaud's death, you filed a wrongful death lawsuit. Why do you believe this investigation has moved so slowly, Mrs. Cooper?

COOPER: I would have to say -- I want to say because of COVID. We have had COVID restrictions and that held back a lot of the court dates and hearings. I can say now that everyone is getting vaccinated and I'm hoping to have a court date here soon.

LEMON: We were going to get your attorney. Do we have the attorney yet? Or no? We don't have the attorney. OK. OK. So we were going to have your attorney on. We were just waiting to see if he can join us. But let me ask you this as we wait. He may possibly be able to. If not, we will just continue on.

In addition to federal hate crime charges, the three men are also charged with attempted kidnapping in connection with your son's death. Now according to prosecutors, they used force and threats of force to interfere with his right to use a public street, specifically because of his race and color. Are you satisfied with these charges? Or do you want more?

COOPER: I'm very satisfied with the DOJ. They went in and did the investigation, and they came out with those indictments, so I'm very -- I think that I'm pleased about it.

LEMON: Yes. So last week, we saw the conviction of Derek Chauvin, the officer who knelt on and killed, George Floyd's neck and killed him. I know that nothing can bring back your son Ahmaud, but do you believe that we are beginning at least to see a reckoning in racial justice in this country?

COOPER: I do believe after we got the guilty verdict for George Floyd that the courts made the right decisions, the jurors, they went in and found him guilty. And I think that we at some point we are moving in the right direction. Hoping we get the same type of verdict in Ahmaud's case as well.

LEMON: Well, I want to thank you for joining us. I really appreciate it. And please keep us updated as to what happens with your son and the people who are charged with his death. Thank you so much. I appreciate it.

COOPER: OK. Alright. Thanks for having me.

LEMON: Thank you.

Multiple black people shot by police since Derek Chauvin verdict was reached. W. Kamau Bell weighs in. He is next. Plus, CN is inside India. Their health care system on the brink of collapse. We are going to take you there.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[23:30:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: The Biden administration sending urgent shipments of medical supplies to India, where the health care system is on the brink of collapse, completely overwhelmed by a catastrophic surge in COVID cases sweeping the country.

CNN is on the ground in India. Here is chief international correspondent Clarissa Ward.

(BEGIN VIDEO TAPE)

(CRYING)

CLARISSA WARD, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): In Delhi now, you're never far from heartbreak. Almost everyone in the city has been visited by grief. At the Seemapuri crematorium, the loss weighs heavily in the smouldering air and the dead are piling up.

(On camera): There are bodies literally everywhere you turn here. I've honestly never seen anything quite like it. And the organizers say that pre-COVID they might cremate seven or eight people a day. Today, alone, they have already cremated 55 bodies and it's not even lunch time.

(Voice-over): Just months ago, India's leadership boasted that the country had effectively defeated COVID. Now, it has set global records for new cases as a terrifying second wave ravages the country.

(INAUDIBLE) says he and his men don't even stop to take breaks. And, still, they can barely cope with the flow. A volunteer approaches. They have run out of tables for the bodies, he says. He then adds that his mother died from COVID the night before.

You must be tired.

UNKNOWN: Very. But this time is not for the rest.

WARD: Do you believe the government figures the death tolls, the COVID figures that they are giving, or do you think the real figures are much higher?

UNKNOWN: Their figures --

WARD (voice-over): The numbers that you're seeing on television are the numbers of people who are dying in hospitals, he says. They are not factoring in the people who died at home in isolation. If those numbers are added, the actual number will go up by three times.

To keep up with those mounting numbers, the crematorium has been forced to expand, creating an overflow area in a neighboring car park.

(INAUDIBLE) is saying good-bye to his 45-year-old younger brother.

UNKNOWN: Lost tonight. I was thinking that his health is improving. But suddenly, the phone of doctor came on my mobile phone that your brother has expired.

WARD: Do you think his death could have been prevented?

[23:35:00]

UNKNOWN: Yes, yes. I think we could have saved him with better health hospitals.

WARD (voice-over): India's health care system is at a breaking point. Unable to cope with the scale of the crisis, its people left to fend for themselves. This crowd has been waiting for six hours for the chance to get some oxygen. They can't rely on the state.

UNKNOWN: We need oxygen! My mother.

WARD (voice-over): Your mother? How old is she?

UNKNOWN: Forty-seven.

WARD (voice-over): Is her oxygen very low?

UNKNOWN: She is in very critical condition.

UNKNOWN: Fifty-eight percent. We are trying since morning, but we are not getting the oxygen anywhere.

WARD (voice-over): How many places have you been to?

UNKNOWN: Nineteen.

WARD (voice-over): Nineteen?

UNKNOWN: Yes, since morning, since 6 a.m.

WARD: Have you tried taking her to the hospital?

UNKNOWN: There are no beds.

WARD: There are no beds.

UNKNOWN: Before four days we have tried so much, but we didn't get any beds.

WARD (voice-over): (INAUDIBLE) was lucky enough to find her mother a place in a hospital, only to find out there was no oxygen.

UNKNOWN: (INAUDIBLE) in front of my eyes. What should I do? I'm so scared what is going to happen with my mom.

WARD: Are you angry?

UNKNOWN: I'm so angry because of disorganization. Our government is so careless. They even don't care about what public is suffering. They don't know from which thing we are suffering. There are so many people who are standing over there and fighting for this thing.

WARD (voice-over): Her mother is now in critical condition. Like many here, she feels completely overwhelmed. For those who can't source their own oxygen, this is the only option, a drive-in oxygen center by the side of the road. A woman arrives unconscious in a rickshaw. Several hospitals have already turned her away. They simply didn't have the beds. Now, she is relying on the kindness of strangers. Her sons worked desperately to try to revive her.

(On camera): This isn't a hospital or even a clinic. It's a Sikh temple. But for these people who have already been turned away from so many hospitals, this is their last chance at survival.

(Voice-over): The leader of the Sikh charity that runs this facility says it gets no support at all from the government. He says he already had COVID twice. But he and his volunteers continue to work 24 hours a day.

UNKNOWN: We want to save their lives. This is our heart's voice.

WARD: It must hurt your heart to see the way your people are suffering.

UNKNOWN: Yes, madam. Many times we cry also, what is going on.

(CRYING)

WARD (voice-over): It is impossible to escape the tragedy of this vicious second wave. Coronavirus is ravaging the old, but it has not spared India's young. The prime minister has announced that everyone over the age of 18 can get the vaccine. But with less than two percent of the country inoculated, that offers only a distant hope.

So India's capital continues to burn, suffocated by the rampant spread of this deadly virus, a city and a country brought to its knees, praying for respite.

Clarissa Ward, CNN, New Delhi.

(END VIDEO TAPE)

LEMON: Heartbreaking. Clarissa, thank you so much. For ways that you can help combat India's coronavirus crisis, please go to cnn.com/impact.

The Floyd family on Capitol Hill tonight along with others who have lost loved ones to law enforcement, pushing for police reform. W. Kamau Bell weighs in. He's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[23:40:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: The families of the victims of deadly police violence meeting today on Capitol Hill with a bipartisan group of lawmakers about police reform legislation. They are calling for the passage of the George Floyd Justice in Policing Act by May 25th, the first anniversary of Floyd's murder.

We had a guilty verdict in the Derek Chauvin trial last week, but since then, at least three Black people have been shot by police. Sixteen-year-old Ma'Khia Bryant was killed in Ohio. Anthony Brown, Jr. was killed in North Carolina. Isaiah Brown was shot in Virginia.

A lot to discuss now. W. Kamau Bell is here, the host of CNN's "United Shades of America." I'm so glad to have you on, Kamau. I love having conversations with you. So, thanks for joining us tonight. What is the real takeaway, you think, from the Chauvin verdict?

[23:44:55]

W. KAMAU BELL, CNN HOST: I mean, the takeaway from the Chauvin verdict is that it is one case in one place in America that there was some measure of justice for his family, for George Floyd's family, but it is not something we should extrapolate that we think this is a change for us, the country.

And we know that, as you mentioned, from the Black people who died since then, we also lost a couple of lives, other people I know about, Adam Toledo who is 13 and Mario Gonzales in Alameda, California.

LEMON: Yeah. You got a new season of "United Shades of America" coming out on Sunday. In it, you talked to multiple police reform activists who say that law enforcement is an inherently racist system. I want you to watch this clip.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BELL: Is this moment different as far as like where we are in America and specifically around law enforcement?

UNKNOWN: For me, it's just this moment of being a Black man in a police uniform, right?

BELL: Mm-hmm.

UNKNOWN: There are some problems. Systemic problems that have been in policing for a very long time that you know needed to be rooted out. And so you sit in this place where you're like, do I fit in, right? Sometimes, you even ask the question, do I fit in? I'm a Black man before I put on a uniform --

BELL (voice-over): Yeah.

UNKNOWN: -- and when I take it off. You know, I'm not --

UNKNOWN (voice-over): Even when you got it on.

UNKNOWN: Right.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: OK. So, then, how do they reconcile the foundations of policing and how racism has been imbedded in the system from the start?

BELL: Well, you know, admitting that it's racist is just part of it. The way that you fix this is by going, well, how can we reimagine the system of policing in this country so that it is not built and standing on racism?

You know, we talked about in the episode -- I talked to Dr. Nikki Jones from Cal Berkeley who is and African-American Studies professor, that it's based on -- the ways with Black police in this country is based on the Barbados Slave Code, which is about how to police people you own.

That is in the fundamental part of policing and it is what -- it stems from then all the way to right now. So we have to actually re-imagine what safety looks like.

For example, all the calls that police and the killing of people over are with people who are going through mental health crises or like Mario Gonzalez. He was a man who was drunk in a park. You don't need a person with a gun for that. You need a social worker or somebody who will give him a ride home.

LEMON: Look, this is not breaking news, all right? In 1968, the Kerner Commission created the LBJ right -- by LBJ. It investigated the cause of intercity violence and discovered that it was not Black anger but white racism that was the root of the problem. That was more than 50 years ago. Have any of the lessons of that report, do you think that has been put into action, Kamau?

BELL: No, it hasn't been put into action. LBJ rejected all of the findings and by the Nixon administration. A few years later, the war on drugs started which particularly -- which specifically targeted Black and Latinx folks. So, we know they didn't take any lessons.

That is why I think a lot of people, a lot of Black activists, a lot of indigenous Latinx activists don't want to hear about reform because that is what reform got us, the war on drugs. Reform got a rise in the massive incarceration in this country. Reform got cops getting tanks and militarized gears that we saw on the streets of Ferguson. That is what reform gets us. It is about a whole new system and a lot of that starts if people believe with funding the police. LEMON: So, I want to get your take on in what we heard from Senator Tim Scott last night about this country not being racist. He said --

BELL: No, don't do it to me, Don. No!

LEMON: Why not? Listen. Let me tell you what he said.

BELL: OK, fine.

LEMON: All right. So he said the original sin isn't the end of the story, it is a story of redemption. What are your thoughts on what he said? I got it from your reaction there. Go on.

BELL: I mean, it sounds like a (INAUDIBLE). I don't know what that was. This country was built on racism. It was built on the genocide of the Native Americans. It was built on the transatlantic slave trade for slaving African people. So, that's - the country we all live in right now, we all, in some way, are benefiting from that.

Now, obviously, Black folks are not benefiting as much as white folks are, but we are all sitting on indigenous land that was stolen from them and it was built by enslaved Africans.

That is the truth. And the fact that we were enslaved and when we got our freedom, our "freedom," we were never restored whole, which is why you hear about reparation. So, until the United States atones for that and makes good on that, we are still living in a racist country.

LEMON: W. Kamau Bell, you don't hold your tongue, never lost for words.

(LAUGHTER)

LEMON: I see you, brother.

(LAUGHTER)

LEMON: Thank you, sir. I'll see you soon, all right?

BELL: Thank you.

LEMON: But, you can always see W. Kamau Bell. Make sure you tune in. An all new season of "United Shades of America" with W. Kamau Bell premieres this Sunday, this Sunday, only on CNN.

Next, though, is a semblance of civility between a Democrat and a Republican. Wow!

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[23:50:00]

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LEMON: So, before we go, did you see the greeting between President Joe Biden and GOP Congresswoman Liz Cheney? Did you see it? Well, we are going to show it to you. They fist-bumped last night as Biden was entering the House chamber. Cheney fist-bumping Biden is a no-no to some on the right like Donald Trump, Jr.

But Cheney is not having -- she is having none of it, tweeting this. I disagree strongly with Joe Biden's policies, but when the president reaches out to greet me in the chamber of the U.S. House of Representatives, I will always respond in a civil, respectful and dignified way. We're different political parties.

[23:55:00]

LEMON: We're not sworn enemies. We're Americans.

Wow! Where's that been? Thanks for watching, everyone. Our coverage continues.

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ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: And good evening. We are going to start tonight with a story that we wish we were not doing and with pictures and video we wish we had not seen. There is a lot else in the program. There are new developments in the case against Rudy Giuliani in the wake of yesterday's search, targeting him, including what he had to say about it all just this evening.

We will also talk with Cindy McCain about what's become of her Republican Party and what she thinks about possibly serving in a Democratic president's administration.

We begin those seemingly world away from those things except what is happening right now across India isn't far removed.