Return to Transcripts main page

Don Lemon Tonight

Correspondents Dinner Cancelled; Florida to Impose New Election Laws; Giuliani Calling the Raid Illegal and Unconstitutional; Sen. Mitch McConnell Push Back on Critical Race Theory; Trump Allies Shaken by Feds' Raid to Giuliani; Conservatives Avoid the Racism and Slavery Issue; Congressman Matt Gaetz Undeterred by Scandal. Aired 10-11p ET

Aired April 30, 2021 - 22:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[22:00:00]

MICHAEL SMERCONISH, CNN HOST: You were staying up late then and you were staying up late now.

DON LEMON, CNN HOST: And I learn from them, you know what you'll learn from Johnny Carson, especially Johnny Carson, timing. Timing. And that silence is not the enemy in broadcasting. Because usually, anchors, or people who do radio, as you know, sometimes they hate silence, they feel that they like they have to fill every void, or everything, you know, say something, and you don't have to. Sometimes, the silence is more much powerful than actually trying to say something.

SMERCONISH: Yes. The pause. The pause is very effective, when necessary.

LEMON: Like this.

SMERCONISH: Yes.

LEMON: Thank you, Michael Smerconish.

SMERCONISH: See you, Don.

LEMON: Have a great weekend. I'll be watching you tomorrow.

SMERCONISH: You too, thank you.

LEMON: Thank you.

SMERCONISH: See you, pal.

LEMON: This is CNN Tonight. I'm Don Lemon.

I've got a lot to tell you about, I have some breaking news. And I'm going to tell you about the GOP. Are they even to be taken seriously anymore? Is it a serious party? We shall see, we will talk about it.

In the meantime, there is shockwaves on team trump over the FBI raid on the former president's attorney, Rudy Giuliani. One Trump adviser telling CNN, quote, "this was a show of force that sends a strong message to a lot of people in Trump's world that other things may be coming down the pipeline."

That, as we are learning that investigators are reportedly looking at Giuliani's involvement in the firing of the former ambassador to Ukraine. The New York Times reporting one search warrant stated it was seeking evidence related to the firing of Marie Yovanovitch.

And we got a lot more on this in just a moment. We are going to talk a lot more about that. Giuliani is defending himself though, by saying that the assisting U.S. attorney -- attorneys, plural, hate him, and they hate Trump.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RUDY GIULIANI, FORMER PRESIDENT TRUMP'S LAWYER: I can't believe that these people would actually think I would do something like this. But obviously, the assistant U.S. attorney's hate me, and they hate Trump, which is probably, which is probably the whole thing. I mean, to believe that I'm some kind of Russian agent.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: OK, as promised, let's all think about this. Right? Really think about this. I know you have some ideas as well. I'd like to hear them. What happened to the Republican Party? What happened to the Republican Party? The party of Rudy Giuliani under investigation by the SDNY, the office he once headed. The party of Matt Gaetz, the congressman under investigation by the FBI for allegations including sex trafficking.

Now, he is teaming up with a notorious QAnon congresswoman, or women, Marjorie Taylor Greene planning to travel the country -- or woman, I should say, excuse me -- planning to travel the country together in what they are calling an America first tour. What is happening to the GOP? What is happening? Let me tell you.

They are all in on being the party of the big lie, the party of disinformation, the party of lies, fueling the assault on voting rights all across the country. In Arizona where they are counting the ballots, in Maricopa County, again, for the third time, six months after election day. What is happening to the GOP? What happened?

Florida, where Governor Ron DeSantis expected to sign a bill full of a slew of new restrictions on voting. Even though his state had no major problems in November. In Georgia, where it is now a crime to give voters waiting in line food or water. Voting rights under assault? And why? Because the former president and his allies had been peddling lies and distrust. Peddling the big lie, and it appears to be working for them.

This is a brand-new CNN national polling, it shows 70 percent of Republicans, 70 percent, think Joe Biden did not legitimately get enough votes to win. How sad is that. Co-opted by a big lie. Seventy percent of Republicans believe the big lie, the big lie that fueled the attack on the United States capitol by Trump supporting rioters.

What is happening to the Republican Party? As America grapples with our history with race, the GOP, remember when we used to call them the party of Lincoln, not so much. Now they are acting like it's all one big game, throwing red meat to red stators. This is Florida's Ron DeSantis.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LAURA INGRAHAM, HOST, FOX NEWS: This proposition that we are a systemically racist country. Your reaction?

GOV. RON DESANTIS (R-FL): Well, it's a bunch of horsemen who are. I mean, give me a break. This country has had more opportunity for more people than any country in the history of the world.

[22:04:57]

Here's the problem with things like critical race theory that they are peddling. They are basically saying all our institutions are bankrupt and they are illegitimate. OK, so how do you have a society if everything in your society is illegitimate? So, it's a very harmful ideology, and I would say, really, a race-based version of a Marxist type ideology.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: A race-based version of a Marxist ideology? Talk about your horse manure. Like I said, it's red meat to red stators. Just like those absurd and totally bogus claims that President Joe Biden is trying to force Americans to eat less red meat. Claims that Republicans keep repeating and repeating even they had been thoroughly debunked.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. KEVIN MCCARTHY (R-CA), HOUSE MINORITY LEADER: He wants control of your life. He is going to control how much meat you can eat. Can you imagine that?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: Like I said, should they be taken seriously, the Republican Party? Really? Red meat, Dr. Seuss, Mr. Potato head, and now, a race- based version of a Marxist ideology. We are better than that. America is better than that. Better than empty culture wars meant to divide and distract us.

Our history is something that we have to deal with. I know it's hard, I know you don't want to because you want to have your beliefs and the way you have always lived, or however that is reinforced and reconfirmed in every single moment. No growth, no evolution, no diversity. Same old, same old. Our painful past is part of who we are, today.

But we've got the former vice president who, let's remember, was menaced by those bloodthirsty rioters chanting hang Mike Pence on January 6th. He's tweeting that he's disturbed by what he calls the Biden administration's war on American traditional values. That's what he is disturbed by? Do you mean, traditional values like liberty and justice for all? In case you weren't clear on what he means by war on American traditional values there's this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MICHAEL PENCE, FORMER VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We will reject critical race theory in our schools, in our public universities, and we will cancel - cancel culture wherever it arises.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: OK. So, I want you to listen to me because this is the old OK- dokey again. Look, Republicans are very good at messaging. Very good at stealing the language from the other side and using it against them. Democrats aren't that good at -- they're not that good at politicking, Republicans are much better at it.

So, again, don't fall for it. There is no cancel culture. I've said it, there's no cancel culture. Nobody is getting canceled. What goes on here is a blatant attempt to silence the national conversation about race. Right at the moment when the murder of George Floyd and the deaths of so many others have opened the eyes of a lot of White Americans to what Black people face and fear on a daily basis.

That's the truth. Right at the moment when we need to talk to each other, right at the moment when we need to listen to each other on race. Republicans are throwing around stuff like this. Like Mitch McConnell, sending a letter to the Education Department saying, quote, "our nation's youth do not need activist indoctrination that fixate solely on past flaws and splits our nation into divided camps."

Don't want to talk about what happened in the past, Columbus discovered America, sailed the ocean blue. Tell that to a Native American. There it is again from Mitch McConnell, the old OK-doke, activist indoctrination. Splitting our nation into divided camps.

We've got to talk honestly about our past. Study our past. Understand that it all goes back to the original sin of slavery. You don't want to talk about that, right? You think it's painful? How do you think it feels for people whose ancestors were slaves? That's how we all move forward. That's how we live up to the words, liberty and justice for all.

And as America begins to emerge from this pandemic, the White House Correspondents Association dinner is cancelled for the second year in a row because of COVID. But in simpler times exactly 10 years ago, almost to the minute, and I was covering it here on CNN, the president then, Barack Obama, took to the stage and then the president stepping up to the mic, and delivering this takedown of one Donald J. Trump. Watch it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

[22:10:08]

BARACK OBAMA, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Donald Trump. He was here tonight.

(APPLAUSE)

OBAMA: Now I know that he has taken some flak lately, but, no one is happier, no one is prouder to put this birth certificate matter to rest than the Donald. And that's because he can finally go back to focusing on the issues that matter. Things like, did we fake the moon landing? What really happened at Roswell? And, where are Biggie and Tupac?

(APPLAUSE)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: Yes. Like birtherism. Like, there is no systemic racism. Like very fine people on both sides. I've said it before Barack Obama lives rent free in Trump's head. That was true 10 years ago still true tonight.

I got to get to some breaking news tonight. The federal raid on Rudy Giuliani's home and office sending tremors to former President Trump's inner circle. A Trump advisor calling it a show of force that sends a strong message, and now there are concerns more investigations could be coming.

That as we are learning more about what investigators are looking at.

CNN senior national correspondent is Alex Marquardt and he joins us now. He joins us with that. Here it is.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ALEXANDER MARQUARDT, CNN SENIOR NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): When federal agents swooped in this week raiding the New York apartment and office of Rudy Giuliani, they were reportedly trying to zero-in on the role that Rudy Giuliani played in ousting the former U.S. Ambassador to Ukraine, Marie Yovanovitch.

According to the New York Times, one search warrant stated that it was seeking evidence related to the Yovanovitch ouster, FBI agent seized Giuliani's electronic devices to investigate communication he had with the Ukrainians about the effort.

GIULIANI: That warren is completely illegal.

MARQUARDT: On Fox News, Giuliani denied that he was acting on behalf of Ukrainians and blasted the prosecutor's decision to search his home and office.

GIULIANI: There is no justification for that warrant. It is an illegal, unconstitutional warrant. One of many that this department of injustice tragically has done.

MARQUARDT: Giuliani, Trump's personal attorney, met with Ukrainian officials as he attempted to dig up dirt on Joe Biden, his boss's chief political rival. Giuliani's conversations with Ukrainians also centering around their desire to remove Ambassador Yovanovitch, a career diplomat who Giuliani believed was hindering his efforts to dig up dirt on Biden.

During the first impeachment of Donald Trump, Yovanovitch accused Giuliani of mounting a smear campaign against her.

MARIE YOVANOVITCH, FORMER U.S. AMBASSADOR TO Ukraine: I do not understand Mr. Giuliani's motives for attacking me, nor can I offer an opinion on whether he believed the allegations he spread about me.

MARQUARDT: Giuliani's efforts worked, Trump was convinced and Yovanovitch was removed.

INGRAHAM: Why do you need her out of the way?

GIULIANI: I don't need her out of the way, I forced her out because she is corrupt.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MARQUARDT: And we know that one of Giuliani's main contacts in digging up on Joe Biden was a lawmaker named Andrii Derkach, he was, according to U.S. intelligence, a Russian agent. Our sources have told CNN that while Giuliani was working with Ukrainians the Trump administration had been warned that some of the information that was being given to Giuliani was from foreign intelligence.

So, Don, it's very hard to believe that Giuliani wouldn't have known that there were some very serious concerns about the people that he was working with. Don?

LEMON: Alex, you've been following every detail of this story. Do you know more about the reaction in Trump world to this FBI raid?

MARQUARDT: Well, there are certainly, nerves tonight in Trump world. And you understand why. I mean, Giuliani has been one of the most loyal of loyal subjects, and now he faces a very serious federal investigation.

A Trump advisor told CNN that the worry now is that the DOJ, the Department of Justice maybe indicating that they are willing to investigate the former president and his inner circle. This Trump advisor told our colleague, Gabby Orr, quote, "this was a show of force that sent a strong message to a lot of people in Trump's world that other things may be coming down the pipeline."

Don, that same adviser have called the raids on Giuliani - overkill. All these federal agents sent to get these electronic devices, but it is clear from what this advisor and others said the Trump world is rattled in the wake of this escalation against Giuliani.

LEMON: Alex, I appreciate your reporting. Thank you very much.

So how worried should Trump and his allies be in the wake of the raid on Rudy Giuliani? Will the former president's former attorney ever flip on others to protect himself? (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

[22:14:58]

GIULIANI: Well, about 6 o'clock in the morning, there was a big bang, bang on the door. And outside were seven - seven FBI agents with a warrant for electronics.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: So, here's our breaking news tonight. The federal raid on Rudy Giuliani's home and office sending chills through Donald Trump's inner circle. An adviser to the ex-president calling it a show of force that send a strong message. Some now worried more investigations might be coming.

So, let's bring in CNN senior political commentator, Doug Jones, the former senator from Alabama who also served as the U.S. attorney from the Northern District of Alabama, and our senior legal analyst, Elie Honig, ae former prosecutor in the Southern District of New York.

I think we have it all covered with these gentlemen. Good evening to both of you. Thanks for joining.

Elie, you first. You heard the new reporting. Should Trump or his allies be worried?

ELIE HONIG, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Yes, Don. Look, this was a message that we got sent this week. There's a new DOJ in town. They are not going to tiptoe around Donald Trump or his powerful allies. Now that is in stark contrast of course to the prior DOJ under Bill Barr which went out of its way and sort of broke all precedent and principle to defend Donald Trump and Roger Stone and Michael Flynn.

[22:20:03]

Now, there is a world in which the new DOJ would say we don't want to go down that path. It's too messy. It's over. Why bother with it? This week by serving that search warrant on Rudy Giuliani they made clear we are willing to go down that path and follow the evidence wherever it may take us.

LEMON: Elie, if Rudy Giuliani had a role in getting the former Ukrainian ambassador, Marie Yovanovitch, fired, if he broke lobbying laws what does that mean? Is that prison? What does it mean?

HONIG: Yes. So technically, there is a law called FARA, the Foreign Agents Registration Act, meaning if he was working on behalf of Ukrainian interest and didn't register or disclose it, that is a federal crime. It's an obscure federal crime, it's not used often.

The bigger concern for Rudy is, the feds can use every piece of evidence they took out of his apartment that day. His phones, his text, his e-mails, whether it relates to that lobbying violation or any other crime, it happens all the time, Don, where you go in on a search warrant, you're looking for evidence of crime a, and you find evidence of crimes b, c, and d, that is all fair play as well. That's go to worry him too.

LEMON: Senator Jones, Giuliani through his attorneys is denying a Washington Post report that he was warned by the FBI that he was a target of Russian disinformation intended to damage Joe Biden. Now CNN has not confirmed the Post report, but if true and he still put out that disinformation, is that a crime?

DOUG JONES, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: You know, it could be. But you know, I've got to tell you, I think rule number one, Rudy Giuliani needs to let his lawyer do the talking. I think Elie would agree with me that the more that Giuliani talks, the more potential trouble he gets in.

Now there's a lot of things swirling around about this, Don. I mean, you've got the lobbying. But let's also not forget that you've got his former associates, Parnas and I forget the other fellow's name. They've been debriefed. All of their evidence has been seized.

You've got -- this is not -- this has been going on for two years. This is not just the beginning of something. We are talking about something that is widespread, and a lot of people are concerned. Everybody that had any contact with Rudy Giuliani has got to be concerned about this.

LEMON: Parnas and Fruman, Igor Fruman. So, I've got to ask --

(CROSSTALK)

JONES: Fruman, that's right.

LEMON: I've got to ask you, though, I was surprised when I saw that Rudy Giuliani was going to be speaking on a cable news program. I said or his attorneys, are they out of their minds? Like why are they letting him speak? Were you surprised, Doug?

JONES: Absolutely, absolutely. But yes and no. OK? I was surprised in the sense that I think rule number one with a client is that you tell that client do not speak to anyone. Do not talk to the press, do not talk to anyone about it, but especially the press.

But when you're dealing with somebody like Rudy Giuliani it is the worst possible client that you can have with regards to the press. You know he's going to talk to the press and you just hope that he doesn't say something that is not only stupid, but something that can be easily proven to be a lie. Which unfortunately for Mr. Giuliani, that, you know, so many things that he said in court these days and to the press has been easily proven as false. So, I would assume that this lawyer should really get a handle on him at this point.

LEMON: I heard, Elie, on with Dan Abrams -- I think it was today, where you said I have no idea what law or the gun law, and all these things that Rudy Giuliani was espousing had nothing to do with any sort of law or anything to do with reality, Elie. But do you see, here's the big question, though, Elie. Do you see a situation of Rudy Giuliani flips to protect himself, flips on others to protect himself?

HONIG: On the one hand, Don, Rudy has given no indication of being willing to accept any of his behavior which is sort of step one to cooperating. On the other hand, remember, Rudy has, he says joked about having a, quote, "insurance policy on Donald Trump relating to Ukraine." I don't know. I mean, I joke around with my friends. That's not really the kind of joke that I would make.

And I will say this, Don. Getting indicted, finding yourself on the other side of the United States v can be a real slap in the face and can bring you around to reality real quick. I've seen tougher people than Rudy Giuliani, more determined people than Rudy Giuliani who do flip when push comes to shove. But a lot remains to be seen there.

LEMON: What was interesting, Doug, you know, we were talking about Rudy Giuliani doing the talking and I just remember, I thought it was 2016 all over again when -- or 2016 through maybe about 2018 when the magic words were but her e-mails. And now Rudy Giuliani -- the magic words now for Republicans are Hunter Biden. Like that is the get out of jail free card they believe.

It's everything, it was like now his -- the raiding of his property and computers and whatever they took or were looking at, it's about Hunter Biden now. How -- how in the world -- what does that have to do with anything?

[22:25:04]

JONES: It's just rope and dope. And he's just trying to be a distraction to put, you know, put the focus on somewhere where they don't want it to be. And remember, this was not the only Trump lawyer. It was not the only lawyer at least associated with former President Trump whose home was raided or their office was raided.

There was a Washington, D.C. lawyer at the same time warrants were executed. This was -- this was very well planned. I think folks also need to remember this. This has been going on for a while. Rudy Giuliani said this is unconstitutional and illegal. Well, we know it's not constitutional.

They went to a U.S. magistrate. This was approved by the highest levels in the Department of Justice. And the last agents absolutely lied. Then this is a perfectly constituted warrant. They were looking for something and they got probable cause to believe that a crime has been committed and that evidence of a crime was located in those residences and offices.

So, it's a pretty serious matter. And that you've got two lawyers at the same time where these warrants are executed. I agree with them. It's a pretty good show of force. Not because of the number of the agents. That was just kind of standard in routine. But just the fact that you had two lawyers at the same time, high-profile lawyers.

LEMON: And last time Bobby (Inaudible) and I dreamt all of this, but last time I checked Hunter Biden was under investigation, already so.

JONES: That's right.

LEMON: It's just bizarre. Bizarre. Thank you both. See you, gentlemen.

So Republican Matt Gaetz isn't letting an escalating investigation into sex trafficking and prostitution stop him, he is going on on tour around the country. We'll talk about that. Stay with us.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. MATT GAETZ (R-FL): Thanks for having me.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[22:30:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: GOP congressman Matt Gaetz facing major legal and political pressure tonight after that bombshell from the Daily Beast. Democrats now demanding he'd be stripped of his assignment on the judiciary company.

That after the Daily Beast reported Joel Greenberg, a central figure in the federal investigation into Gaetz wrote in a letter that he and Gaetz paid for sex with multiple women including a minor who was 17 at the time. Now the story says that the letter was drafted after Greenberg asked Roger Stone for help getting a pardon.

Here is some of that letter. OK? From the time -- from time to time, gas, money or gifts, rent or partial tuition payments were made to several of these girls including the individual who is not yet 18. I did see the acts occur firsthand in Venmo transactions cash app or other payments were made to these girls on behalf of the congressman.

CNN has not seen the letter. Cannot verify the details of the Daily Beast's story. A spokesperson for Gaetz saying this in a statement to CNN. And I quote, "Congressman Gaetz has never paid for sex, nor has he had sex with a 17-year-old as an adult. Politico has reported that Mr. Greenberg's threats to make false accusations against others, and while the Daily Beast stories contains a lot of confessions from Mr. Greenberg it does not add anything of substance, and certainly no evidence for the wild and false claims about Rep. Gaetz. In fact, the story goes some way to showing how Rep. Gaetz was long out of touch with Mr. Greenberg, and had no interest in involving himself in Mr. Greenberg's affairs." End quote.

Greenberg's attorney did not give a comment to CNN. Citing attorney- client privilege. Stone told Chris Cuomo that he doesn't buy the story. He didn't help. He never took any money from anybody. He doesn't recall any letter and he has never heard of Greenberg implicating Gaetz.

OK. That said. And that was a lot. Marc Caputo is here. Senior political reporter for Politico Florida. Marc, good evening, sir. MARC CAPUTO, SENIOR POLITICAL REPORTER, POLITICO FLORIDA: Hi.

LEMON: So, this letter is astounding. CNN hasn't seen it, as I said can't verify the details but you've been extensively covering Gaetz and his relationship with Greenberg. What did you think when you saw this?

CAPUTO: I think what it really showed is that the center point or the focal point for all of the accusations against Matt Gaetz which here before we had been able to call anonymous now have a name and it's Joel Greenberg. So, it's Joel Greenberg whose now clearly either through his law firm or his attorney or his family or his friends, the few who remain, are the ones who are accusing Matt Gaetz of having engage in this sort of activity.

The real question is, is it true? Greenberg is a conflicted witness in that he is a problematic witness. Among the 33 charges, federal charges that he faces one of them is lying about a political rival and accusing him of pedophilia. So that's going to be a complicated witness to put on the stand if it ever gets to that point.

The real question is the victim, or I guess we should say in this case because there is no conviction yet, the alleged victim of the sex trafficking of a minor, what does she say? That we don't know. And that's going to be crucial. If she happens to say and perhaps has evidence showing that Matt Gaetz had sex with her when she was 17, that's going to be a really problematic thing for Matt Gaetz.

However, if she doesn't say it or if there's not enough evidence, well, there's a good possibility that Matt Gaetz might go through unscathed. Now, I say this not having access to all of the evidence. All the information.

LEMON: Yes.

CAPUTO: All the documents that the feds have done.

LEMON: Yes.

CAPUTO: So that's an important caveat.

LEMON: And we made that clear as well as I was leading up to you. But I have -- I've got to ask you, because I'm wondering I guess this era, this sort of Trumpian era is here to stay. Matt Gaetz is certainly taking the page from it. Rudy Giuliani is doing it as well. You know, denying, deflecting, distracting.

Gaetz is going on this America first tour around the country with Marjorie Taylor Greene of all people to attack Republicans not loyal enough to Trump. But do you think that -- will that work for someone who is not Donald Trump?

[22:35:05]

CAPUTO: Well, maybe it depends on who are asking the audiences.

LEMON: Yes.

CAPUTO: Will that work among Republicans? Yes. He probably doesn't need to do it because we are in this era of such a divided, such a divided country that conservatives and Republicans by and large believe Matt Gaetz. And --

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: It's not just that, Marc. it's post-truth. We are in a post- truth world.

CAPUTO: We are in a world where there's not a lot of middle and there's not a lot of listening to the other side. And the incentives, whether it's on the left going to the left, or on the right going to the right or just that. It's like you go to your base, you go into your corner. In this case, I kind of compared this to the octagon and mixed martial arts, right.

Matt Gaetz is retreating to the hardest right corner of the octagon and that's where he's going to fight because that's where his people are. Those are the people who have his back. And he is a politician whose of the ilk of always be on offense.

You know, you had that earlier segment where some of the folks were saying hey, look, the best thing to do in a case like having Rudy Giuliani as a decliner, a client like that is to try to get him to shut up. In Matt Gaetz's world, and perhaps in Rudy Giuliani's world, the important thing here is to understand for them that there is a court of public opinion, as well as a court of law and they see their problems first and foremost as a public court opinion problem and that's what they're going to wage their war.

That having been said, Matt Gaetz says that even in the court of law he is going to be found not guilty or that he's innocent, he shouldn't be charged. Again, we'll wait and see what does that woman say who was the victim or the alleged victim of that sex trafficking as a minor. We don't know.

LEMON: Mr. Marc Caputo, always a pleasure. Thank you, sir.

CAPUTO: Thank you.

LEMON: What's wrong with teaching anti-racism? Just ask Senator Mitch McConnell because he thinks it's divisive. Stay with us.

[22:40:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: I want you to listen to this discussion because it's going to continue to boil up. I'd like to get your feedback on it as well.

Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell waning into the culture wars in a letter obtained by CNN, the Republican leader asks Biden Education Secretary Miguel Cardona to abandon their curriculum in schools that McConnell claims tells a revisionist history of America's founding. McConnell claims that these programs like the New York Times 1619

Project reorient the view of American history away from their intended purposes towards a politicized and divisive agenda.

So, there's lots to discuss now. Kendal Thomas is here, Nash professor of law at Columbia University, and CNN political commentator Scott Jennings.

Good evening to both of you. Thank you so much for joining.

Professor, I want to start with you, because you call it --

KENDALL THOMAS, NASH PROFESSOR OF LAW, COLUMBIA LAW SCHOOL: Yes.

LEMON: -- you call it like you see it. Is a top Republican in the Senate just taking his turn trying to fight, you know, woke schools?

THOMAS: Well, Don, I would tell you that Mr. McConnell, like the rest of the Republican Party is teeing up for the 2022 midterms with a culture war, a culture war that's being declared on transgender Americans on one side and against Americans of color on the other.

I don't think the letter that Mr. McConnell sent to the education secretary can be understood in any other terms. It is a naked, partisan political ploy to position the party for the 2022 midterms.

LEMON: Professor, Senator McConnell says, and I quote here, "Americans never decided our children should be taught that America is inherently evil." But is that what programs like the 1619 Project actually teach?

THOMAS: Well, as I understand it, the 1619 program is an effort to teach Americans the centrality of one of the ugliest institutions in the history of our country. Slavery. The ownership by some human beings of other human beings. I don't see that as teaching people to hate one another. I think it's about teaching people to understand the history that binds us as a nation altogether.

LEMON: The -- Scott, the federal government is not directly instructed or promoted schools to use the 1619 Project. The education secretary came on CNN and said the federal government plays no role in specific curriculum planning in local schools. Why are -- why are Republicans so scared of the truth of the nation's history being taught in schools?

SCOTT JENNINGS, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, the federal government is incentivizing the use of this curriculum even if they're not putting it out. But the reason Republicans and conservatives are worried about is because they fundamentally disagree with the idea that racism is embedded in the DNA of every American.

And that the American founding was rotten at its core, and that we have to sort of erase our foundations of this country because we're all inherently racist due to the implication that the American Revolution was fought to preserve the institution of slavery, which a great many historians including some on the left disagree with. For Republicans and conservatives the idea that this is a racist

nation fundamentally and that we all have to admit to that and accept it and then start to go down a path of fundamentally changing the way we govern ourselves and run this country, that is just not going to be an acceptable ideology that Republicans will agree with. And they certainly don't want to taught in public schools.

LEMON: So, Republicans don't want the truth to be taught in public schools. That there were people who came over at 1619 before the mayflower who came over on slave ships. What's wrong with teaching that?

[22:45:08]

Both can coexist. Or that Columbus didn't actually discover America that America was here before Columbus. What's wrong with --

(CROSSTALK)

JENNINGS: No. There's --

LEMON: -- telling our children the truth? That it has nothing to do with saying that everything is racist. It's just simply the truth.

JENNINGS: Of course -- of course that's the truth. And of course, there's nothing wrong with teaching children the facts. But the implications and the statements of the 1619 Project are that the American Revolution was fought to preserve the institution of slavery.

I mean, you've got curriculum being taught in schools now as an outgrowth of this thing where they are making children's in schools say that I'm oppressor, I'm racist, and they're going to be a great many Americans not just conservatives and Republicans but I suspect a great many people who would consider themselves to be on the middle or even on the left who don't agree with that kind of indoctrination.

So, I agree with you, Don, those are facts. They happen and they should be part of our history classes. But the framing and the further indoctrination of the fact -- of the idea that we are a racist, rotten nation at our core is what Republicans are against.

LEMON: Is that what the 1619 Project is? Professor, do you want to weigh in on that? Telling people that they are --

(CROSSTALK)

THOMAS: I don't think that's what the 1619 Project is about at all. Let's talk about the Trump administration's report. I think they called it the 1776 commission. Because that's what's really at stake here. Does the idea of America and the American idea start in 1619 with the forced transportation of Africans to the shores of the Virginia colony or does the American idea start in 1776?

It was a massive undertaking. The 1619 Project. Unlike any project of that scope, it's going to get things wrong. And it's going to offer interpretations with which people disagree. But the fundamental point that I'd want to make here, Don, is that you

cannot have 1776, and the very impoverished understanding of what patriotism is and what patriotism means and what patriotic education is without also having 1619, without also having 1857, the Dred Scott opinion in which Chief Justice Roger Taney said that Black people in this country had no rights that the white man was bound to respect.

Of the 1896 decision, in Plessy versus Ferguson which upheld Jim Crow segregation in separate but equal, and in which even the dissenting justice in that case said that white people are and should remain for all times the dominant race in America. Or 1942, which marked the year of the internment held by the Supreme Court of thousands upon thousands of Japanese-American citizens.

So the central point of 1619, and let's be clear, this obsession with 1619 is not about the history of slavery because if in fact Mr. McConnell cared about the history of slavery they would be open to the idea that Thomas Jefferson in the first draft of the Declaration of Independence, listed slavery as one of the issues over which the colonists wanted to revoke from and separate themselves from England. Right?

LEMON: Yes.

THOMAS: So, slavery figured centrally in that history. So, I think the obsession with 1619 is not about a return to facts. It's about the imposition of a narrow and impoverished narrative of the American republic in the name of historical accuracy.

LEMON: OK. I've got to move on. But as we say here, and Scott, as I said to you, we want to give the facts here. The original New York Times 1619 Project included a core claim that the U.S. Revolution was launched in part to maintain slavery.

The Times later issued a clarification saying it was not the primary motivation for all the columnists but for some of the columnists.

That's got to be the last word. We'll continue our conversation. Thank you both for joining.

Sold for $1,800 dollars. I learned that. That was my ancestors' worth once. But take this. That's not where their value will stop.

[22:50:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: Take this. As the nation continues to reckon with racial injustice brought on by its original sin, I had the opportunity to learn more about my own family's history with slavery through the PBS series "Finding Your Roots." I learned that I am likely the descendant of the man who enslaved my ancestors. A man who valued those ancestors at just $1,800. Watch this.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) UNKNOWN: When we look at Don's DNA, we found a distant match to descendant of James C. Woods. And when we tested Don's mother, going one generation further back in time we found a much stronger match. Indicating that Don is almost certainly a descendant of the white man who owned his maternal ancestors, the same man who valued Don's relatives at $1,800 dollars.

LEMON: Well, how many (Inaudible).

HENRY LOUIS GATES, JR., DIRECTOR, HUTCHINS CENTER FOR AFRICAN AND AFRICAN AMERICAN RESEARCH, HARVARD UNIVERSITY: Now, Don, you're going to be processing this for a long, long time. But I have to ask you, what are you feeling right now?

LEMON: It's weird. It's almost like when you are delivered, you know, bad news. This is bad news. Or you're at an accident and everything just kind of goes out of focus.

[22:55:03]

GATES: Yes.

LEMON: You're like, wait, what's happening?

GATES: Right.

LEMON: And for you, I'm sure you see these reactions all the time so maybe you're used to them. But even that they were property. OK. That's fine.

GATES: Right.

LEMON: But that $1,800 dollars for me is a motivator. I've got to do something that makes their -- that honors their memory and that gives value to others like that before I leave this earth.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

LEMON: I'm so grateful to learn about my family's past. A lot of Black people don't get that opportunity. And like I said, with that opportunity I'm going to work to give value to the people who came before me. They don't get that opportunity quite frankly because there are no records. There were tick marks. So, property.

Part of that work includes starting sometimes uncomfortable conversations, right, necessary conversations about race in this country and I talk about how we can have those conversations in my book. It's a unifying book. And I'm telling you, you should read it. It's called "This is The Fire: What I Say to My Friends About Racism." It is out now.

The fight against new Jim Crow. Yet another state looking to make it harder for their citizens to vote. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)