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Don Lemon Tonight
Rep. Liz Cheney Going After Former President Trump; Sen. Mitt Romney Booed In Utah; Former Governor Chris Christie Giving Trump A High Mark; From Lincoln's Party To Now A Trump Party; Majority Of GOP Thinks Biden's Presidency Is Illegitimate; Giuliani's Legal Team Preparing To Fight Feds Over His Seized Materials. Aired 10-11p ET
Aired May 03, 2021 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[22:00:00]
CHRIS CUOMO, CNN HOST (on camera): The founding of this country was all about the surrender of the me, neither the we. It hasn't been done since its inception but it's always been an experiment. It's always been about getting better. Where we recommit to the idea of becoming better or we just be doomed to watch ourselves to get worse?
Thank you for watching. "CNN TONIGHT" the big show with the big star, D. Lemon, right now.
DON LEMON, CNN HOST: I'm breathing heavy right now because you know the person needs to be saying that and who needs to hear it is Rick Cantorum. I cannot -- I was serious watching the interview in my office, I cannot believe the first words out of his mouth weren't I'm sorry, I said something ignorant, I, you know, I need to learn about the history of this country.
No contrition, didn't talk about, you know, the suffering that Native Americans have had to deal with in this country. It was, I mean, Rick Santorum, really? Who, did he think, did he actually think it was the good idea for him to come on television and try to whitewash the whitewash that he whitewashed? I mean, it was -- it was horrible. It was horrible and insulting and i apologize to the viewers who were insulted by.
Because I was sitting, I sit in my office, furious because he's done it so many times. So many times, and it's just I'm sorry, it was just, it was so egregious and insulting and everything that we talk about, about the founding of this country, Europeans did not found this country. It was here, the Native Americans had this country before the Europeans came.
Yes, the Europeans conquer the country, they colonized it. But they didn't -- they -- it had nothing to do with the founding of this country, and he should recognize that. He needs to know that especially if he is going to be on television representing us and talking about it. He should be doing it from the right perspective and not from some perspective about how, you know, what Europeans.
No that's the wrong way to look at. It it's all wrong. I'm sorry, but that is the truth. And I can't believe I was watching it going, I cannot believe this man is sitting here and doing this. It was like the for Black Lives Matter, it was like Native American lives matter moment for me, watching that.
CUOMO: Well, ask yourself this once, you know, --
LEMON: Jesus.
CUOMO: -- you deal with the emotion of it? Why are things like that said? And why does he not apologize but say --
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: That's not for me to answer, that's for him to answer.
CUOMO: But you have to, because otherwise you're not going to have any place to put your pain.
LEMON: I don't have -- listen, I don't have a place to put my pain. I have this platform and I have to be honest about it. And so, I've got a place to put my pain, I'm talking about the people who don't -- I'm speaking for the people who don't have the platform. And --
(CROSSTALK)
CUOMO: I know, but you've got to do more than just echo the outrage --
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: I'm not echoing the outrage.
CUOMO: -- of what he says. You got to find out where it comes from.
LEMON: I don't even know about the outrage.
CUOMO: Yes, you do.
LEMON: No, I don't.
CUOMO: That's why you're wrong.
LEMON: No, I don't know about the outrage.
CUOMO: that's why you're wrong.
LEMON: Let me tell you. I don't know anything about this whole Rick Santorum thing, I don't know anything about that. I, just sitting and watching that interview and I heard bits and pieces of it. And when I saw him, I said, was he going to apologize, he is going to say, because I know initially what he said but I don't know anything about the average. I know nothing about that.
CUOMO: You have to understand, I'm not talking with the outrage against Rick Santorum. Our world -- (CROSSTALK)
LEMON: The reason that Donald Trump -- CUOMO: -- is not Twitter. What I'm saying is --
LEMON: It's not about -- this isn't about Twitter. I don't care about Twitter. You know that.
CUOMO: Well, but that's where the reaction is, and then the media hypes the reaction. What I'm saying is this, I had him on because I want people to see what this is. There is no mystery for you guys.
LEMON: People know what it is, Chris.
CUOMO: No, they don't. No, they don't. Because if you just dismiss it, Don, --
LEMON: I'm not dismissing it, that's the point.
CUOMO: -- and he's wrong. That's not the truth.
LEMON: But sometimes people are wrong.
CUOMO: Then why do -- but do people keep saying it then?
LEMON: The whole reason, because we allow them to say it.
CUOMO: No.
LEMON: Yes.
CUOMO: No, no, no. You're not censor --
LEMON: Yes, it is.
CUOMO: It's because --
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: I'm not censoring -- I'm not censoring, you're saying I'm censoring. I didn't say censor him?
CUOMO: Well, you said we allow them, you don't get to decide who says what.
LEMON: I said, I cannot believe that he came on and the first words out of his mouth wasn't contrition. That's why I say -- I didn't say --
(CROSSTALK)
CUOMO: How can you not believe it?
LEMON: How can I not believe it?
CUOMO: Yes.
LEMON: Because for him to blame -- he is blaming, then he turned into this thing about the Republican Party and Trump. This had nothing to do with Trump. The only thing it had to do with Trump is that he was the -- he was one of the people who allowed this party to become the Trump party.
CUOMO: That's right.
LEMON: From all of the things that he said before.
CUOMO: That's right.
LEMON: That's like me -- that's like me, please stop yelling at me, I'm trying to complete my thought. That's like me saying that Chris Cuomo, I said something that was -- that offend people and blaming it on Chris Cuomo. It has nothing to do -- this is about Rick, this about Rick Santorum. That's what it's about.
CUOMO: For me, I'll just say this because I know you got a show to do. I -- look, this country is in a crisis that is all about identity.
[22:04:56]
And there is a wager being made on the right, that they can get enough white people to believe that they are targeted, that there has been a perverse cultural shift and that they are being replaced. True? No. But it's not about facts, it's about what fear.
LEMON: But Chris, I think people already know that. I think people know that.
CUOMO: If that were true, then that party wouldn't be as formidable and the Democrats wouldn't be as vulnerable as they are in the upcoming midterms.
LEMON: No, it's -- people already know that. And the people in the Republican Party know that.
CUOMO: Seventy percent of them --
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: That's why you have --
CUOMO: -- say Biden didn't win.
LEMON: -- that's why you have an insurrection. You have an insurrection because people believe that America was founded in the image of white people. And that the country was built in their image, and therefore the election should go their way.
It's the same thing that Rick Santorum is saying about Native Americans. And the lack of the contribution, what have you. It's the same thing. I think people know that. I just think people are tired of being insulted every single day to their faces if they don't know that --
(CROSSTALK)
CUOMO: Seventy percent of that party accepts --
LEMON: That doesn't make it right. That doesn't make it right.
CUOMO: -- the big lie.
LEMON: Right. That doesn't make it right. And it doesn't mean that --
(CROSSTALK)
CUOMO: Of course, it doesn't make it right.
LEMON: -- people have the platform --
CUOMO: What I'm saying is that if it were simply as two plus two equals four --
LEMON: It's not --
CUOMO: -- we wouldn't be in a situation.
LEMON: It's not that. Listen, we're not -- you're not getting anywhere. Because seriously, I'm just -- I'm really mad.
CUOMO: I know you're upset.
LEMON: I'm really mad.
CUOMO: What I'm saying is, what's the solution? What's the fix? If it were as he's wrong, you're right, we wouldn't be here. That's all.
LEMON: We got to go, because we're not going to agree.
CUOMO: I agree, because I know we are coming from and I love you, Don Lemon.
LEMON: Yes, I love you too, but I just --
(CROSSTALK)
CUOMO: We agree on the problem, what's the solution? We got to figure it out.
LEMON (on camera): I got a big -- I got a solution, but anyways, not my decision. Thank you. See you later.
This is CNN TONIGHT. I'm Don Lemon.
So, in the -- what we are talking about, again, I'm not going to apologize. This is how I feel about this. This is -- I'm Don Lemon. Does Donald Trump think you're stupid? Do the Republicans think you're stupid? Here's why I ask, because they keep lying to you, they keep not understanding history, they keep giving you misinformation.
Not because they think you'll believe it, because they are sure you will believe it. I know that's a bit strong, so maybe I should say that they're sure enough. Enough of you will believe it, so they keep on doing it. Do you get my point? This is the point I was trying to make to Chris.
Enough of you will believe it so they keep on doing it if you let them, Trump and the Republicans. If you let them do it without holding them to account. You have to do your part. You have to hold them to account. You have to contact them about their lies. You have to vote them out. You have to call the people out in your life who believe in the big lie and you have to tell them about themselves.
Because if you don't, the fact is, that our democracy is in danger. Do you get that? This is important and I want you to listen. This is not about politics at all. It's not about right versus left. This is about a party with one simple test for who is in, and who is out, if you reject the results of a 2020 election, if you're willing to delegitimized the votes of more than 81 million Americans who cast their ballots for Joe Biden, if you are willing to side with the lie over the truth then you're in in that party.
If you stand up for the truth, for democracy you are hanging by a thread. The Republican Party is being taken over by those who reject the results of our free and fair election, the foundation of our democracy. And instead, promote the big lie.
Taken over by those who refused to acknowledge the deadly insurrection at the United States Capitol, refused to acknowledge what we all saw with our own eyes. Bloodthirsty, Trump supporting rioters attacking police, and hunting lawmakers incited by that big lie.
Taken over by those who want to make it more difficult for Americans, specifically Black and Brown Americans, Native Americans who tend to vote Democratic, to make it more difficult to cast their ballots. And now people like Liz Cheney, Liz Cheney of all people? Liz Cheney, Dick Cheney's daughter on the ropes because she refuses to promote the big lie. Because she is telling her party exactly what it doesn't want to hear, and that is the truth.
I'm here to tell you the truth people, that's all. That's it. Sources telling CNN that Jamie -- CNN's Jamie Gangel, that the congresswoman the number three House Republican said this today in an off-the-record interview with former House Speaker Paul Ryan.
[22:10:02]
And I quote here. "We can't rebuild the party or the conservative movement on a foundation of lies. We can't embrace the notion the election is stolen. We can't whitewash what happened on January 6th or perpetuate Trump's big lie. It's a threat to democracy."
And that could cause Liz Cheney her leadership position in a Republican Party that is tearing itself apart right now. The congresswoman and a handful of other Republicans on one side, on the other, more and more members of what used to be the party of Lincoln now the party of a disgraced twice-impeached, one-term president who lost the House, lost the Senate, and lost the White House.
Trump lost, he lost. He lost. But here's what -- here's what you should know, Trumpism did not. Not as long as Republicans are willing to buy into the big lie. The former president now issuing one statement after another since he was kicked off Twitter in the wake of the insurrection. Tonight, resorting to insulting Congresswoman Cheney and claiming she'll never run in the Wyoming election in a Wyoming election again.
That after labelling the 2020 election, the election he lost, fraudulent and the big lie in all caps. Of course, here we go again. That's really something. The man who has been shamelessly spreading the big lie, just big lies he's lied so much, come on people. He lies on top of lies, that's all he was consistent with was lying.
That bogus lie of election fraud trying to co-opt the phrase and label the election itself, the election he lost the big lie. Liz Cheney calling them out, calling him out tweeting this. The 2020 presidential election was not stolen, anyone who claims it was is spreading the big lie. Turning their back on the rule of law and poisoning our Democratic system.
And that's why the congresswoman's leadership position is hanging by a thread tonight. She's on the outs with the Minority Leader Kevin McCarthy, who has made it clear that he'll do whatever he has to do to get on Trump's good side. Including making a pilgrimage to Mar-a-Lago just a couple of weeks after the insurrection.
McCarthy has the power to call for a quick vote to effectively seek Congressman Cheney's removal from his leadership team. Sources tell CNN and it's unclear if he will do that as soon as next week. But multiple Republicans say she is on very shaky ground. McCarthy who defended her behind closed doors in February now said, to be furious.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNKNOWN: Is Cheney still a good fit for your leadership team, do you believe?
REP. KEVIN MCCARTHY (R-CA), HOUSE MINORITY LEADER: That's a question for the conference.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON (on camera): And then there's Mitt Romney who was the GOP candidate for president in 2012, who voted twice to impeach Donald Trump. He was booed at the Utah GOP convention this weekend.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. MITT ROMNEY (R-UT): You know me as a person who says what he thinks, and I don't hide the fact that I wasn't a fan of our last president's character issues.
(CROWD BOOING)
ROMNEY: And I'm also no fan --
(CROWD BOOING)
ROMNEY: Aren't you embarrassed? Now, yes, you might call me an old- fashioned Republican, I am. Then our party --
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON (on camera): Well, Trump of course on the attack, calling the senator a rhino and a loser. I mean, that's such simple elementary school language, and we've been talking about it for what, five years now? Even what, a decade, starting with the birtherism thing. A loser, who does that? That's like some happy days crap that people used to say, you're a loser.
But yet, he was the president. And members of Romney's party in his own home state boo him, OK, that's how complete the Trump takeover has become. The 43rd President of the United States, George W. Bush warning his party that if they follow Trump's lead, if they become the party of lies, the party of white Anglo-Saxon's they're not going to win.
(BEGIN VOICE CLIP)
GEORGE W. BUSH, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: If the Republican Party stands for exclusivity, you know, it used to be country clubs now it's white Anglo-Saxon Protestantism, then it's not going to win anything.
(END VOICE CLIP)
LEMON (on camera): It may be falling on deaf ears, Republican hypocrisy is on full display with more and more leaders who once spoke out against Trump, now tying themselves up in knots to burnish their Trump cred, whatever happened to the McCarthy, the Kevin McCarthy who said this. This is one week after the insurrection at the capitol.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
[22:15:08]
MCCARTHY: The president bears responsibility for Wednesday's attack on Congress by mob rioters. He should have immediately denounced the mob when he saw what was unfolding.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON (on camera): Just one week later.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNKNOWN: Do you believe that former President Trump provoked.
MCCARTHY: I don't believe he provoked if you listen to what he said at the rally.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON (on camera): What a difference a week makes, and then there's Chris Christie, grading the former president on quite a curve.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
FMR. GOV. CHRIS CHRISTIE (R-NJ): Listen, overall, I give the president an a.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON (on camera): An a, huh? OK, whatever happened to the Chris Christie who said that he'd vote to impeach Trump over the capitol insurrection, an a.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHRISTIE: I mean, what we had was an incitement to riot at the United States Capitol. We had people killed. And to me, there's not a whole lot of question here. So, you know --
(CROSSTALK)
GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS, CHIEF ANCHOR, ABC NEWS: Do you think it was an impeachable offense?
CHRISTIE: Sure. Yes.
STEPHANOPOULOS: You'd vote to impeach him?
CHRISTIE: And I think, you know, in the -- well, that's a -- if I think it's an impeachable offense that's exactly what I would do, George, but I'm not in there. But you want my opinion, that's my opinion. I don't -- I think if inciting to insurrection isn't then I don't really know what is.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON (on camera): An a. Inciting an insurrection, but an a. I would have been summa cum laude if that was the way that my college graded me. I said it before, sometimes you wonder whether they remember they say this stuff out loud and on television. But that is the GOP today.
And the GOP today should stop saying that's not who we are. Liz Cheney is who we are. Adam Kinzinger is who we are. Charlie Dent is who we are. No, that's who you used to be. The GOP party of today is willing to say anything, willing to do anything to get on Trump's good side. And it is, well, working for them, to be frank.
Seventy percent of Republicans think Joe Biden did not legitimately get enough votes to win. We just talked about this with Chris. Seventy percent of Republicans believe in the big lie. And it is a lie.
So, I ask you the question, do Republicans think you're stupid? Does Donald Trump think you're stupid? Because people don't lie to you. Now, I'm not going to go there.
How the party of Lincoln has fallen. Now, they are the party of election denial, the party of insurrection, the party of QAnon, the party of Congresswoman Marjorie Taylor Greene, the party of Matt Gaetz under a federal investigation for allegations of sex trafficking and prostitution. The party of ridiculous culture wars over Dr. Seuss, Mr. Potato Head, and red meat.
How can you trust of the GOP now? How can you trust that party when they lie straight to your face every single day? How do you trust someone who lies to you every day? If you are a family member, if your love one, if your spouse lied to you every single day, would you trust them? Are they relevant? Are they even real now?
Where are the policy proposals? How can you take them seriously? Liz Cheney, Mitt Romney, you want that to be the party? Well, they got a whole lot of work. They've got their work cut out for them. Like I said, the American experiment and democracy in peril. As long as you can keep letting people get away with the stuff, lie to your face, you don't call them out. You have to confront.
You know, Ibrahim Kendi says you needs to be an anti-racist, you have to be an anti-liar. You need to be an anti-insurrectionist. You have to be an anti-whitewasher of history. You have to be an anti- bigot. What are we going to truth -- choose? What are you going to choose? The truth? Or lies?
Jamie Gangel is here. Jamie, thank you. It's so good to see your face, your breath of fresh air, and boy, I need to take a breath. Thank you for joining, and it's good to see you.
[22:19:58]
JAMIE GANGEL, CNN SPECIAL CORRESPONDENT: I am so happy to be here. And I just want to say that you and Liz Cheney may not agree on many things, --
LEMON: Yes.
GANGEL: -- but you both agree that democracy is in danger.
LEMON: It is in danger right now. So, speaking of, good evening to you by the way. Speaking of Congresswoman Cheney, she is condemning Trump, she is condemning the big lie, she is condemning the insurrection, she is not mincing words. What else did she say during this interview with Paul Ryan today?
GANGEL: So, this was behind closed doors, and according to two of our sources who were in the room, she stood up for truth and she doubled down on Donald Trump.
And let me just read you a bit of what she said. You mentioned some of this. Quote, "we can't rebuild the party or the conservative movement on a foundation of lies. We can't embrace the notion the election is stolen. It's a poison in the bloodstream of our democracy.
We can't be a cult of personality. We can't whitewash what happened on January 6th or perpetuate Trump's big lie. It is a threat to democracy. What he did on January 6th is a line that cannot be crossed."
Which sounds pretty reasonable, Don, unless it seems you're Kevin McCarthy who wants Liz Cheney gone as soon as possible. LEMON: He does?
GANGEL: Yes.
LEMON: There is no love lost between the two at this point.
GANGEL: So, this is what I'm told by sources who are familiar with the dynamics. Kevin McCarthy cares about one thing, and that's about being Speaker of the House. And after that tape you played of him on January 13th where he said Trump was responsible, oops, he wants to take it all back.
And he is going after Liz Cheney for one reason and one reason only, his own political gain. He wants back in to Donald Trump's good graces, and he knows the way to do that is to take Liz Cheney out. And my understanding, there will likely be a vote next week, May 12th when they come out into session.
LEMON: Jamie Gangel, always a pleasure.
GANGEL: Thank you.
LEMON: It's good to see you. Thank you so much.
GANGEL: Good to see you.
LEMON: Does the GOP really want to be the party of election denial, whitewashing insurrection and empty culture wars? Do they really want to be the party of lies or the party of truth?
Presidential historian Jon Meacham weighs in, he's next.
[22:25:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON (on camera): Congresswoman Liz Cheney, the number three Republican in the House doubling down on her criticism of Trump's big lie of election fraud, calling it poison for our democracy. But her rebuke of Trump could very well cost Cheney her leadership position.
Let's talk about that now. Jon Meacham is here, the presidential historian, the presidential historian. Good to see you, Jon. Thanks for joining us. Listen.
JON MEACHAM, HISTORIAN & AUTHOR: Don, it's a big article (Inaudible). Thank you.
LEMON: You got the number three Republican leader saying her own party's lies are poisoning democracy. It seems like we are really in dangerous territory right now. Put this into perspective for us.
MEACHAM: We are. We have a major party, one of the two major parties that is in full flight from fact. It has become captive to its own narrative of grievance and disillusionment with reality. One of the ironies of this is the Republican Party loves to make fun of people who think of themselves as victims, and yet, they are brilliant architects of their own narrative of grievance.
I think that Representative Cheney has a remarkable opportunity here. I think she's already taking advantage of it to be a kind of Margaret Chase Smith. The great senator from Maine, who in 1950, four years before Joe McCarthy was censured, four years before, she was the first person, the first Republican to stand up on the floor of the Senate and say in a speech called the declaration of conscience. Say that McCarthy out of the mainstream of American tradition of fair play.
LEMON: Yes.
MEACHAM: And I salute her for doing this. It may cost her something in the short term, but if you think of things historically, and if you think about things more structurally, which the Cheney family does, then you are doing the right thing. You are going to be on the right side of history.
LEMON: I mean, Jon, you don't get more conservative than Liz Cheney, am I wrong?
MEACHAM: I don't think so, no. But that's one of the things that's so important in this conversation, it goes to what you're talking about truth and lies. These folks in the Republican Party today they aren't conservative in a recognizable form.
LEMON: They are flame throwers.
MEACHAM: This is not -- this is not Edmund Burke, this is not Dwight Eisenhower, this isn't Robert Taft. This is a kind of nihilistic will to power. They are not about ends at this point. The end is the holding in keeping of power.
How else do you explain the illogical, immoral, embrace of Donald Trump after, I would say before, but let's just take it for what Representative Cheney is saying, after January 6th? How do you do that?
LEMON: The confederate troops didn't get into the capitol during the Civil War. But they did on January 6th. And so, that's not a party that's working within a tradition of Eisenhower and Reagan and the Bush's, or the Cheney's. And you can argue all day long, and people will, about the family's public policy positions.
But they were in and they have been in fact part of a tradition, on the right side of that tradition, but part of the tradition in which we argued about the relative role of the state in the marketplace, and the relative projection of force against foreign foes and rivals.
[22:30:03]
And that argument is supposed to be what a democracy is. It's not supposed to be, I'm going to choose my entire reality.
LEMON: Right. Right on. Listen, I don't know which came first, the chicken or the egg, but I often hear you talking about this, and now I hear the president talking about it. I don't know if you said it first or he said it first.
But Joe Biden often talks about restoring the soul of America and the need for two healthy political parties. How can that happen when one of the parties is tearing itself apart? And it's not as you said, living in reality, creating its own reality.
MEACHAM: Yes. If they were just tearing themselves apart, that'd be fine. The problem is they're trying to tear up the rest of us with them. Right? This is not a GOP civil war. This is a war on America and democracy. Because they're not, this foreign policy turnups, they're not a partner for peace. Right?
You know, in high (Inaudible) forum policy thinking, to have a negotiation to have a rational actor on the other side. There is not a rational actor on the Republican side now. And I wanted to be very clear. This is not reflectively partisan on my part. I am resistant the 1930s analogies, I'm not a Democrat. I'm not a Republican, I voted for both. I'm George H.W. Bush's biographer for God's sake. So, I'm not exactly a flame thrower.
I really, really believe that the Republican Party has currently constituted and run is no longer a viable productive part of the Constitutional democratic republic. And it's terrible. This is a part of and their people don't like them, but again, the party of Eisenhower and Reagan and the Bush's.
And disagree all you want vociferously, virulently but they were part of a structure that made sense where you follow the rules. If you ran one day and I lose today my job as a democratic republic is to re- gather my forces and try to beat you in the next election. I don't just say, no, you didn't win, yes, that's not true. You know, that reason collapses at that point and passion takes over, and that's what's happened.
LEMON: Well, I think you're right. And listen, factual analysis is not part -- is not partisan. But that is the only defense, I think when the truth is on your side to try to paint someone as liberal or partisan because the facts don't line up with your side.
I want you to talk to me in which that's a perfect segue, to your new podcast, it's called fate of fact. You offer a historical perspective on the forces that led to Trump's presidency and the insurrection. Talk to me about that, Jon.
MEACHAM: I really believe that this goes back to the end of the Second World War. Right? You know, the paranoid style in American politics, conspiracies have been with us from the very beginning. But I think that if you look at what happened to take so many Republicans and put them in this cult of personality. To use Representative Cheney's term, what was it? Right?
Because the fringe has become mainstream. In my theory of the case, take or leave it, is that to some extent ever since the end of the Second World War Republicans have felt, conservatives have felt that if the presidents they have worked hard to elect have not delivered for them. And in fact, have governed quite differently than what they expected.
So, Eisenhower comes in, they expect the new deal to be ripped up. Eisenhower governs pretty much from the center. He appoints Earl Warren to be Chief Justice of the United States. Warren gives the country the Brown decision, the Miranda decision, the removal of sectarian school prayer for public schools, which in 1962 was really kind of the Pearl Harbor of the culture wars.
Richard Nixon in 1968 runs hard to the right, he creates the EPA, things about family -- guaranteed family income. A health care plan that makes Obamacare look quite conservative. And he goes to China, and he appoints four justices to the Supreme Court. One of whom writes the majority opinion in Roe v. Wade.
Ronald Reagan comes in and that's really going to do, it? Right here's the great hero, and he did cut taxes in 1981. And then he raised them five or six times, negotiate with the Soviets and federal spending grew on his watch.
George H.W. Bush is the embodiment of this. You know, his decision as he's put it to follow sound governance, violated the rising right-wing ideology. And Newt Gingrich turned that into the 1984 landslide, as well as anti-kleptonism (Ph).
[22:35:05]
And George W. Bush would tell you that there is a line between tarp and Trump in 2008. And so, I think Republicans, many Republicans have become enamored of this story of grievance. The world is already against them, and even the Republican presidents were already against them. So, by God, we're going to send you somebody who is totally unconventional.
LEMON: Jon Meacham, always a pleasure. Fate or fact, that's his new podcast. I appreciate you joining us. I'll talk to you soon. Thank you.
One Republican telling CNN that Congresswoman Cheney has less support in her party than she thinks. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON (on camera): So, the House minority leader Kevin McCarthy is said to be furious at GOP Congresswoman Liz Cheney, as she calls all the party's embrace of Trump's big lie. McCarthy has the power to call for a quick vote that could remove Cheney from his leadership team. OK?
So, CNN's Jamie Gangel, so saw her reporting at the top of the show, reporting that the call for that vote could come on May 12th.
[22:40:05]
So, joining me now, CNN's senior political analyst, Mr. John Avlon, and CNN political commentator, Ms. Ana Navarro.
Good evening to both of you, thanks so much.
Let's see. John, let's post this question to you about Liz Cheney. Not afraid to call out Trump and his lies, she's taking a huge risk here. How is this going to end, do you think?
JOHN AVLON, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST & ANCHOR: Right. I think clearly her leadership position is at risk, but she's fighting the good fight, she's fighting the right fight. This should not be a jump ball between truth and lies. The fact that Kevin McCarthy is trying to create some equivalence, between truth and lies speaks to a deeper sickness in our politics and the Republican Party.
But make no mistake, this is dangerous for democracy to have one political party, decide that they're going to going back to the big lie in the face of all facts because they think it's in their short- term interest.
LEMON: Ana, McCarthy is said to be furious, he wants her out of GOP leadership. He can call for a quick vote to oust her if he wants. Is this what happens if you stand up for truth in today's GOP? They try to get rid of you?
ANA NAVARRO, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: It really is astounding, it is astounding that he's OK with matt Gaetz who is being federally investigated for sex trafficking with a minor, but he's furious at Liz Cheney for speaking the truth, and for fist bumping the President of the United States.
Now think about this, think about the hypocrisy here, OK? They are mad at Liz Cheney for fist pumping Joe Biden. Donald Trump had Hillary and Bill Clinton at his wedding. They are calling Mitt Romney a traitor and a communist and a rhino. They're calling Liz Cheney a rhino.
Let's look at the federal spending, a national debt under Donald Trump. Thirty-six percent up. Let's look at his relationship with Russia and with Putin. He kowtowed to them. Let's look at his family values and social values, a man who cheated on his wife with a Playboy bunny and cheat on the Playboy bunny with a stripper. And you're going to call the other force rhinos?
So, really, I think the reason they're furious at Liz Cheney is because she makes them look like a bunch of invertebrate, cowards, moron, lemmings who are following a man, who are following the culprit personality and are violating Republican principles and convictions, that's why they're angry her because she makes them look awful like what they are.
LEMON: So, let's talk about this poll. John, there is a CNN poll out. Just seven in 10 Republicans, seven in 10 think Biden did not legitimately win the election. Is this really what this is about? Republicans in Congress are more afraid of going against the base and setting the record straight?
AVLON: I think it's clear there is an authoritarian streak that runs under at no nationalism. And the fealty to Trump is taking on a totalitarian quality. But that seven in 10 is a dangerous metric because it's all part of the selfsame perpetuating cycle. You've got a closed media ecosystem forcing politicians to the extremes. That's reinforced by these close partisan primaries, everybody says look, I'm fund-raising of the stuff and it will help me win a primary.
So, I'll just agree not to speak the truth and then that reinforces a live and it has metastasized in our body politic. It is dangerous, it is dumb. It is self-defeating but it's a predictable result of the structure that's been set up. We need more people with courage to stand up and speak out because that's what's going to take.
LEMON: All right. Thank you both. That's all we have time for. I appreciate it. The question is, will Trump join Rudy Giuliani's court fight after his home and office were raided? That's what Giuliani's famous legal advisor hopes as the team gears up for a fight.
[22:45:00]
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LEMON (on camera): OK, so we have a developing story tonight about Rudy Giuliani. His lawyer Robert Costello telling CNN that they're gearing up for a legal battle with the feds over materials seized from Giuliani's home and office last week. Costello also saying there are currently no coordination, there's currently no coordination between Giuliani and Donald Trump's legal team.
I want to discuss now, our senior legal analyst Laura Coates is here, a former federal prosecutor. Laura, good to see you. Thanks for joining. Let's get this in there's a lot to cover.
So, Rudy Giuliani's attorney is telling CNN that they're set to add some lawyers to their legal team. Do you think they have any chance of blocking federal prosecutors from accessing his phones and computers?
LAURA COATES, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: No, unless they have some actual knowledge there's privileged material in there. Remember, they tried this before in the sense of Michael Cohen whether there was a discussion about whether or not because of his attorney-client relationship with Donald Trump when he was then president whether the data was actually going to be privilege.
They had a special independent person who look over at every information and said, hey, is there any portion it has to not go over to the prosecutors? That person creates a bit of a wall and only that which is not privileged would go over.
So, unless they can actually show that there is something in the files that actually implicate or relates to that relationship they will have no causes to why the prosecutors cannot see it, but they'll try to raise it nonetheless. And unless Trump signs on in some meaningful way to say hey, look, there's a privilege claim, they've got nothing there.
LEMON: I want to talk to you about there are some people who wanted to join the Trump team, you know specific, I should say, a person. We'll talk about that right after this quick break with Laura. [22:50:00]
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LEMON (on camera): Our CNN legal analyst Laura Coates is back. Laura, so, I'm talking about before the break Alan Dershowitz saying Trump should join the court fight that he should -- do you think Trump would do that? And what about Giuliani's next steps?
COATES: Well, what's in it for Donald Trump to join in? Unless there is actually some privileged material that could actually implicate him. Remember, he doesn't have the same protection that were available to him when his former attorney Michael Cohen was in a similar position. Although Cohen was actually indicted the crime, Giuliani has not yet been charged or maybe not at all.
And so, the idea here isn't the protection of being a sitting president who does not have the ability to be indicted, according to that DOJ memo. And so, him putting his neck (Ph) on the line to essentially say that this person has done nothing wrong, or this person is acting at my direction and therefore was not some operative or an agent of a foreign nation.
You have to ask yourself, what is in it for a Donald Trump. But of course, if Donald Trump cannot provide some sort of financial backing in the form of actually being able to provide for the defense, or any ability to pardon or to be able to give an exit ramp for Giuliani, he becomes a less than an attractive person for Rudy Giuliani.
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Ultimately, if he is implicated to try to defend or try to divert our eyes away from. And so, it all comes down to this big question, Don, what would possibly be in it for Donald Trump. If there's nothing there to implicate him, he may leave Giuliani out to dry.
LEMON: Never ends always something new. Laura, thank you so much. I'll see you soon. Have a good night.
One Republican speaking out saying the big lie is just that, a lie. And it's got most of her party angry. Stay with us.
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LEMON: Not backing down against Trump. Congressman Liz Cheney the number three Republican in the House, calling Trump's big lie of election fraud poison for our democracy and saying we should not whitewash the capital insurrection.
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