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Don Lemon Tonight

Minority Leader Kevin McCarthy Orchestrating A Vote To Oust Cheney?; Sen. Josh Hawley Defends His Vote To Overthrow Election Results; Republican Party Wants Liz Cheney Out; Republican Voters Want To Move On; Derek Chauvin's Attorney Files A Motion For A New Trial; The Two Sides Of Justice System In U.S. Aired 10-11p ET

Aired May 04, 2021 - 22:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[22:00:00]

CHRIS CUOMO, CNN HOST (on camera): You don't want to see their feelings get hurt because they want to go slow, but should you have to wait. I get it all. But there are hard decisions. And Biden will be measured by them. The question is, will people take the vaccine when things are reopening, anyway?

Let's put that question to the big show and the big star, "CNN TONIGHT" with D. Lemon.

Things are opening, anyway. And lot of people kept telling me, I don't know about you, but I don't want to risk with the vaccine. You took it. You know, everybody else is taking it who needs it. I don't need to take it.

DON LEMON, CNN HOST: Because you want to lessen your chances of getting it, simple answer, right. You also, you don't know who doesn't have it. You don't want to put other people at risk. You also want to set a good example for your fellow countrymen and if you are a parent, probably a good example for your children as to how to conduct themselves as responsible individuals.

I mean, it's quite simple to me. I know, speaking with a doctor last night, Chris, what the CDD says about not wearing masks and I was walking around our town this weekend on the street or going out for a jog. I don't have the mask on. I had it with me. And then when a group of people walked by or I have to go into a store or get a coffee, I put the mask on.

No harm, no foul. No skin off my back but I hope that people would go and get the vaccine. Because it is so simple. I told you about my experience. It took all of seven minutes both times to get the vaccine. My arms were sore for a bit.

CUOMO: And you a big fainter?

LEMON: I know. I need a fainting cap. I have the vapors.

CUOMO: But look, I also get people who are saying to me, wait, I'm vaccinated now, I don't want to wear the mask. Look, I get it. And I her people who say I'm going to keep wearing the mask anyway because I didn't get sick this year. I didn't get COVID --

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: I'm going to do that during flu season. I am going to -- I want to wear a mask.

CUOMO: Look, I mean, I think it's now a more acceptable part of our culture. Look, you know, my thing is like, you do whatever you want to do as long as it doesn't impact me.

LEMON: Right.

CUOMO: But I also think that there is a little bit of me that is skeptical like hey, you should do this, it will keep you, it will you healthier. Look at us. We're fat, we're lazy.

LEMON: My gosh.

CUOMO: We eat bad things, we drink bad things, we don't exercise. I mean --

LEMON: I exercise. You don't exercise anymore?

CUOMO: But I'm saying look, --

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: I know.

CUOMO: -- as a country, and look, even, just to be honest --

LEMON: You mean us and --

CUOMO: -- you and I have like three different sets of clothes.

LEMON: I know.

CUOMO: We go up and down all year long.

LEMON: This is my medium set.

CUOMO: You know that's who we are.

LEMON: Yes.

CUOMO: And the idea that people are going to step out and get the vaccine because it's the right thing to do for them and to show their kids. I don't even know that that's what we're about anymore in this country.

LEMON: Yes, you're right.

CUOMO: And I'm not surprised. Look, you and I have been saying this a long time and it's not because we're cynics. You got it right away. You've been better on the mask with anybody that I know. And you and Tim have treated me like, you know, I had COVID the entire time. Like you wouldn't go anywhere, you wouldn't do anything.

LEMON: Remember I'm like, hey, we're not going to come over --

CUOMO: Yes, you've checked every box. I mean, even when you hug me you give me like the -- you give me like the hand hug now and there's a pat on the back.

LEMON: I give you the stiff arm.

CUOMO: And I'll take the heist, man. I get it's coming from a good place. But I do think that this 35-million sounds like a small number --

LEMON: Yes.

CUOMO: -- but I don't think we get there.

LEMON: Yes.

CUOMO: And I think that so many people this summer, I think people have had it and they're going to try and take the easiest route. So, the trick is how do you make them realize that doing it is worth it. Beyond information and personal satisfaction of prophylaxis.

LEMON: Do you pay them?

CUOMO: I'm fine with it? I'm fine with the incentives. I believe that for grades, by the way.

LEMON: Yes.

CUOMO: I wish it to kids all the time.

LEMON: That happened to me. I'd have a better GPA.

CUOMO: Right. What's wrong? I'm not paying my kids to get grades.

LEMON: I have a better job.

CUOMO: Hey, I'll pay them because I have to pay when they don't get the grades. I got pay for the tutors and all the other stuff.

LEMON: Boy.

CUOMO: So, I'm fine with that. Donuts, beer, businesses, I think you and I we called for a table. It's going to be mob where we live. Wait, we're both vaccinated, I think we should get a preference. I'm fine with it.

LEMON: Yes. Well, I can't. Listen, there are many things we disagree on. This one we don't disagree on.

CUOMO: Not who we pay when we go out.

LEMON: Yes.

(CROSSTALK)

CUOMO: I've never heard you fight that.

LEMON: I never carry a wallet.

CUOMO: Man, we'll fight over anything except the check. I notice --

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: Let me say this before I have to go.

CUOMO: Please.

LEMON: And I do have to go. What a classy lady.

CUOMO: Cindy McCain.

LEMON: My gosh, she's amazing. What a classy -- a beautiful woman, classy, and she is what every Republican should want to be, at least what Republicans used to aspire to be. Man, we need more women, more people like her especially in the Republican Party.

CUOMO: You know who disagrees with you? The new GOP Q.

LEMON: Yes.

CUOMO: Did you see what she wrote about Joe Biden?

LEMON: My gosh, you know what, I've lost faith in Liz Cheney. We got to get her out of there.

CUOMO: Hey, look, I had to think twice.

LEMON: My gosh.

CUOMO: Me of all people, I had to think twice. Do I want to put Cindy McCain on the spot about whether or not she'd serve in the Biden administration? that's how messed up things are tight now.

LEMON: Yes.

CUOMO: That I had to think, do you want to expose the window of John McCain. And not to just limit that she's --

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: She can handle it.

CUOMO: -- That that's who she is. But that I have to think about it.

LEMON: Yes.

CUOMO: That's where we are. That's a scary place.

[22:04:59] LEMON: Well, I'm going to talk about that right now. Because everyone, you know what I get people all the time, Don, why are you guys talking about Trump so much. We're sick of talking about Trump. Whatever. Because what's happening in the Republican Party, and Trump is a big part of it, affects all of us right now.

CUOMO: He's more powerful now. He's like Obi-Wan Kenobi.

LEMON: I don't know if he's more powerful now.

CUOMO: On the Bizzaro side.

LEMON: I think he's --

CUOMO: They struck him down. Look what he's doing with his party.

LEMON: I think he's more sinister and I think he's more of the "Wizard of Oz" but does he have power as a 'Wizard of Oz"? We will soon find out.

CUOMO: They're cleaning house, brother.

LEMON: That midterm -- that midterm is coming up. I got to run.

(CROSSTALK)

CUOMO: I love you, D. Lemon.

LEMON: I love you more, brother.

So, I'm going to get to what we're just talking about. This is CNN TONIGHT. I'm Don Lemon.

And I know, you're like, why do you guys get -- I know. I hear it from you all the time. I'm going to explain to you why. Because the big lie is now the new GOP normal. One of the only truth tellers left, once Republican royalty, right, because that's Cindy McCain. I'm talking about Liz Cheney. She was once Republican royalty, about to be driven out of town on a rail.

So maybe you don't care about the Republican Party. OK. I get it. Maybe you don't care about Donald Trump. I certainly get it. As I say I hear it all the time. Maybe you want -- you never want to hear about him again. My goodness, I hear that a lot from both Democrats and Republicans.

But what's happening in the Republican Party right now means not only are you not free of him. The truth is -- the truth is still held hostage. And the damage to the truth and democracy, well, there is no end in sight.

This is bigger than just Liz Cheney. This is bigger than politics. This is bigger than right versus left. This is the Republican Party selling its soul for power. Hear me out here. Putting the foundation of our democracy, our free and fair elections in jeopardy, siding with lies. The big lie over the truth. I asked you last night, just think. If someone, a colleague, an

acquaintance, a friend, a lover, if they -- a family member, if they lied to you all the time, a would you trust them? Would you believe them? Would you have any faith in them? Would you think that they thought you're stupid because they keep lying to you all the time? Think about those things.

Here's what sources are telling CNN tonight that is pretty much all over for the congresswoman. Congresswoman Cheney keeping her leadership position I think is just about a done deal. It's over.

One saying, quote, "she knew this was coming and she is not afraid of the consequences. The stakes are too high." Another source saying this. A party that cannot abide by dissenting voices when it comes to an insurrection and an assault on a free and fair election is probably not much interested in democracy any longer. A party that's not much interested in democracy. OK. A party of election denial and insurrection.

The Rupert Murdock-controlled Wall Street Journal writing in an editorial just tonight about Liz Cheney. And I quote, "she may be ousted because she is daring to tell the truth to GOP voters and at personal political risk."

CNN is told that the congresswoman will not step aside. But the Minority Leader Kevin McCarthy is orchestrating a vote that could happen as soon as May 12th. McCarthy privately telling Fox that this is on a hot mic moment. Right. Listen to this. There it is.

(BEGIN VOICE CLIP)

REP. KEVIN MCCARTHY (R-CA), HOUSE MINORITY LEADER: I think she's got real problems. I -- I've had it with -- I've had it with her. It's you know -- I've lost confidence. Well, someone just has to bring a motion but I presume that will probably take place.

(END VOICE CLIP)

LEMON (on camera): So, I want to point out that this audio has been edited and does not include Steve Ducey's questions but that may be the most convenient hot mic moment ever. Let's face it. He hasn't exactly been keeping his thoughts about Liz Cheney a secret. I'm talking about Kevin McCarthy. He went on the Fox propaganda network this morning to attack her without giving the congresswoman a heads up.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MCCARTHY: I have heard from members concerned about her ability to carry out the job as conference chair, to carry out the message. We all need to be working as one if we're able to win the majority. Remember, majorities are not given. They are earned. And that's about the message about going forward.

I haven't heard members concerned about her vote on impeachment. It's more concerned about the job ability to do and what's our best step forward that we could all work together instead of attacking one another.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: What? Working together instead of attack one another? The attach he should be concerned about was on the capitol, on our democracy, on the truth. But instead, he's concerned about staying on the former president's good side.

[22:09:58]

Mitt Romney, who voted to convict Trump not once but twice saying this. Every person of conscience draws a line beyond which they will not go. Liz Cheney refuses to lie. As one of my Republican Senate colleagues said to me following my impeachment vote, I wouldn't want to be a member of a group that punished someone for following their conscience.

But that is sadly what the GOP seems to be determined to do. Punish Liz Cheney for refusing to go along with Trump's lies for her impeachment vote. And as McCarthy's claim that the -- as for McCarthy the congresswoman is not on board with the GOP's message.

What -- you got to wonder exactly what their message is. What are their policy proposals? What's their plan for America? What is it? Where are they -- what are they about? Policy. How are they helping you? What are they doing for you?

The GOP has been struggling to come up with any kind of coherent message at all. What do they have been standing up for lately? You really want to know? I have to say this every night and it's the truth. Mr. Potato Head, Dr. Seuss.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MCCARTHY: First they outlaw Dr. Seuss. And now they want to tell us what to say.

I am Sam, I am Sam. Sam I am. That's Sam I am, that Sam I am, I do not like that Sam I am. Do you like green eggs and ham? I do not like them, Sam I am. I do not like green eggs and ham.

REP. MATT GAETZ (R-FL): Look out Mr. Potato head, you're next!

REP. JIM JORDAN (R-OH): First it was Kermit the Frog and the Muppets and Mr. Potato head. Then now, you know, Dr. Seuss. Phil, I have said I think this the biggest threat to freedom we've face.

DONALD TRUMP, JR., DONALD TRUMP'S SON: They canceled Mr. Potato Head.

UNKNOWN: That's right.

TRUMP, Jr.: You know, this week alone they canceled the Muppets. You know, they're canceling dr. Seuss for reading programs.

(END VIDEO CLIP) LEMON (on camera): Yes. I know. It's absurd. Right? The theater of the

absurd, but it's all real. It's all real. Fake outrage. Fake grievance. The GOP is the party of absurd cultural bars throwing red meat to the base with repeated lies that President Biden somehow wants to take away your burgers. Yes. That's another one.

With tweets from the likes of Marjorie Taylor Greene. No burgers for thee but just for me. Madison Cawthorn claiming Biden won't let you have a hamburger on the 4th of July. The burger police is going to show up at your house. Come on. And Don, Jr., of course, tweeting about eating four pounds of red meat. OK. Kevin McCarthy weighing in, too.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MCCARTHY: He wants control of your life. He's going to control how much meat you can eat. Can you imagine that?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON (on camera): Can you imagine this? Can you imagine being so desperate to try to undermine the current president because you have nothing, but that is your message. Can you imagine being that desperate that you have to talk about hamburgers and Dr. Seuss and the Muppets? Seriously. Think about that.

That's the message of the Republican Party. The party of bogus stories falsely claiming copies of the Vice President Kamala Harris' book were being included in welcome kits given to migrant children at a shelter in Long Beach, California. They were not. Not true. Bogus book claims again. Red meat. Lies about red meat, right? Mr. Potato Head, Dr. Seuss.

And while they're getting ready to kick Liz Cheney to the curb, look who the GOP is apparently fine with. Of course, QAnon Congresswoman Marjorie Taylor Greene who spewed racist, Islamophobic, anti-Semitic conspiracy theories, not to mention expressing approval of violence against Democrats.

So that's the new normal. If you -- if you represent the Republican party, right, if you have to defend them, that's what you have to defend. You have to defend lies. You have to defend really absurd culture wars.

So, you have that Marjorie Taylor Greene. You have Matt Gaetz under a federal investigation for allegations of sex trafficking prostitution, and then there is Josh Hawley. You remember how he saluted protesters outside the capitol before the violence begin? Now he is defending his vote to overturn the election, his vote to support the big lie.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

[22:15:03]

SEN. JOSH HAWLEY (R-MO): Well, listen, I did what I said I was going to do on January the 6th, which is to voice my constituent's concerns about election integrity. I wasn't going to let the action of a lawless criminal mob came to the capitol and tried to stop the certification process, tried to stop a debate that we were in the middle of. I certainly wasn't going to allow their actions to interfere with my obligation to my constituents in doing what I said I was going to do.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON (on camera): He's selling a book, by the way. So, Senator Hawley wasn't going to get insurrection stop him from doing what he said he was going to do on January 6th. The thing is, what he was there to do was vote against certifying the election for Joe Biden, which is exactly what the insurrectionists wanted.

So, Josh Hawley, Matt Gaetz, and Marjorie Taylor Greene with are all fine but Liz Cheney is the one who's tearing the GOP apart? Come on, you all. That's where we are tonight. The big lie now the new GOP normal. Stop saying that this is not, it's not our party! Yes, it is. The party of election denial and insurrection siding with lies over the truth. That's the Republican Party right now.

So how long can Republicans who still care about the truth, who won't buy into the big lie, Republicans like Liz Cheney and Mitt Romney, how long can they stand with their party? Well, I think that's a great question for John Kasich. Next.

[22:20:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON (on camera): House Republicans quickly turning against Congresswoman Liz Cheney. Next week she is likely to be tossed out of her position as the third highest ranking Republican in the House. GOP Leader Kevin McCarthy caught on a hot mic today saying he's lost confidence in Cheney. But she's not backing down from criticism of Trump and his supporters for pushing the big lie of election fraud which she calls poison to democracy.

Let's see what our senior commentator John Kasich, the former Republican Governor of Ohio thinks about that. John, good evening.

JOHN KASICH, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Hello, Mr. Lemon.

LEMON: I've been wanting to have this conversation with you. I want to know what you think about it. She's not backing down. Why is she braver than so many other Republicans willing to stand up for the truth despite her -- that, really, what's going to happen with her?

KASICH: Well, I mean, look, what's going to happen to us. So, she won't be in the Republican leadership. So, it's not like this golden ticket you got from Willie Wonka. It's not that big a deal, Don, number one. Number two, is that you know her father, her father is a tough guy. I mean, there probably would have been a time when you might have taken him on but he doesn't budge.

And you know, the apple doesn't fall far from the tree. And in addition to that, I've been wondering when we would have people inside that caucus who were going to stand up and say I've had enough. And so, she's doing it.

And I've got a warning for them. If they want to throw her out, I guarantee you she's going to start to draw support from within that Republican caucus. It will start being quiet at first. And then over time it will grow and it will pose a serious challenge to the people who are now in charge.

She'll form I guess what I would call an insurgency. And I've throughout my lifetime, Don, when I fought, you know, the Pentagon on weapons purchases or I fought George Bush for what I thought was a lousy budget, it's funny when you stand up and take a beating people will come around you. And I would predict that over time she will get support in that Republican conference. And --

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: Well, you kind of answer my next question, because you said, you know, you've been wondering when people in the caucus are going to stand up. Person, it's one person in the caucus. So, if you have one person in the caucus, so if you have one person in the caucus or in the GOP, then what does that mean for the Republican Party?

I mean, you even have the Wall Street Jury out with this editorial about the GOP --

KASICH: Yes.

LEMON: -- purging Liz Cheney and then doubling down on the election. Let me just read it and then you can answer.

KASICH: Yes.

LEMON: Republicans will look foolish or worse to swing voters if they refight 2020 in 2022. They -- so I want to talk about those swing voters, but this all goes into what exactly you were saying right now -- or just before.

KASICH: Well, Don, I think there's more than just one.

LEMON: You do?

KASICH: You know we got a guy out here Anthony Gonzalez. You know, he's -- Trump is after him. And by the way, over the weekend I talked to this guy named Michael Wood who ran in that special election in Texas. Got crushed. You know?

I called him. One of our colleagues asked me to call him. I said, hey, you stood up, you put your chest out, you told the truth, your day will come. This will not last forever. There will be an ongoing revolt. You know, they boo, you know, Mitt Romney out there at the convention in Utah.

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: You do have Mitt Romney.

KASICH: It's going to change.

LEMON: You've got Adam Kinzinger as well. They are standing up as well. Go ahead. Sorry.

KASICH: There's others that voted to impeach Trump. There were five or six of them in the House, not that many, and they're being attacked. But you know, they better hope they beat them all because if they don't, they're going to come back.

Look, I can tell you what happens when you start to have an insurgency inside of you caucus. People -- things become very, very tough. And the problem is, as I think the Wall Street Journal points out, they're fighting with each other rather than standing on principles about big government and taxes and all that stuff. They don't have any time for that.

And then what you said earlier about Dr. Seuss had all -- and Mr. Potato Head and all that stuff, and somebody, I don't know who was it, well this could threaten the very survival of America, it's a joke! I have to completely agree with what you said. Dr. Seuss, what? Are you kidding me? So, Don, this will not stand.

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: It was Dr. Seuss's family and the people who run his company who decided to do that. It wasn't Democrats or liberals who did it.

[22:25:02]

I mean, and the same thing with other -- there are other examples of companies saying this no longer represents the values of our company.

KASICH: Yes.

LEMON: We are removing it from the market or we're changing the nature of it. And then, instead, the Republicans blame it on Democrats and liberals because --

KASICH: I know, I know.

LEMON: -- what is it, do they not have anything else? I mean, is it --

KASICH: Here's the -- it's unbelievable. They were going to have this big conference. I don't know what they came out with. There's a million issues on health care, on the environment that they ought to be addressing.

LEMON: Yes.

KASICH: But here's something, Don, we have to worry about. If they use these tactics and they win the House, they're going to think they did great. I mean, think about that for a second. That's the problem. I thought they'd come to their senses sooner, but right now, you know, they're just -- they're just headed over a cliff when it comes to things like policy and putting the country first.

LEMON: You're vocalizing what I -- you're vocalizing what I was saying in the open. Why? Because I'm sure there are Democrats, there are liberals and independents who are watching right now who are saying why do I care about this? Like, why do I care about Trump? Why do I care about the Republican Party? You're right.

If they do win and they could, and Mitch think they could win back the House. Then this has consequences for everyone, not just Republicans.

KASICH: There's another element here, Don. And that is when you don't have a healthy two parties debating ideas, the democracy loses. When all you have from Republicans now, not all Republicans, not Romney, not some people that are proposing some good ideas over in the Senate, but what you end up having is you have kind of one-party rule and that's not good.

Anywhere you look in the country where it's one party involved and the other party doesn't have any ideas, we all lose. So, we want a healthy Republican Party, just like we wanted a healthy Democratic Party when the Republicans were dominating. Because politics is a battle of ideas to improve the lives of all Americans.

So, we don't want them to shrivel and just spend their time on these social issues that has virtually no relevance. It just doesn't. It's out of bounds, as far as I'm concerned.

LEMON: Well, let me talk to you a little bit more about this. Because this is, I mean, this is a little bit beyond, you know, these social issues that supposedly are these culture wars. It says a lot when an incredibly conservative lawmaker, an incredibly conservative lawmaker like Liz Cheney is getting squeeze out while the GOP refuses to punish a QAnon believer like Marjorie Taylor Greene, or Matt Gaetz who is under investigation?

KASICH: Unbelievable. Well, I mean, look, I think everybody has a chance to prove themselves. So, you know, I've never been in the condemnation -- look at the evidence around Gaetz. Let's get a decision made about him. On this QAnon thing, as you know, we talked about this on your show.

They should have thrown her out of the conference, they should have isolated her, taken her committee away. It's just bizarre. But that's where the party is right now. You know? And I remember when Bill Clinton came in with the Democratic Party and he said well, we're going to move more towards the middle and that was not easy.

And so, what's happening in the Republican Party is it's gone hard right on the social issues and QAnon, you know, which is -- I mean, it's hard to believe they didn't just take this away from her. And I would have done it in a second. I wouldn't even have thought about it.

And now that she could become normalized, it's very, very bad. I mean, it's terrible, terrible stuff. And so, there are some of us that want to argue and fight to salvage this Republican Party based on principles that go all the way back to Lincoln. But right now, they are just -- they think they can rely on Mr. Potato Head to win a majority.

LEMON: Well.

KASICH: And then to do what with it? What are they going to do then, Don?

LEMON: You know, well, it seems to be working with Republicans because 70 percent of Republicans say that, you know, Joe Biden is not -- that the election was somehow stolen and he's not the legitimate. We have to remember, 70 percent, that's like 25 percent of the actual voters. So, we'll see, we'll see. Thank you, John.

KASICH: Don, let me tell you one last thing. When I'm out here and I talk to regular old folks, I don't hear this. So, we got to separate the elites from the faithful.

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: But somebody is voting for that. I know somebody is voting for that, John. I know you don't hear it but there are an awful lot of people who voted for --

KASICH: I understand.

LEMON: Yes.

KASICH: I understand. That's why I called Michael Wood who stood up and didn't win that primary. Got crushed. But at the same time, he'll -- as Arnold says, he'll be back. How was that? We got good imitation?

LEMON: I'm going to get you. I know an acting coach.

KASICH: Sometimes I really like to be on the show with you, Don. Sometimes.

LEMON: This is not one of them. Thank you, John.

KASICH: See you soon.

LEMON: All right. I'll see you.

KASICH: All right, sir.

LEMON: So, Liz Cheney is about to be tossed out of her leadership just for saying Trump lied. We know what the so-called party leaders want. But what about the voters? That's what I was asking John. That's next.

[22:30:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON (on camera): Liz Cheney's future in the leadership of the Republican Party clearly in doubt tonight. A vote on her future and her replacement is expected as soon as next Wednesday.

Brendan Buck is here. Brendan is the former top aide to Paul Ryan and John Boehner while they were House speakers, and Republican strategist Sarah Longwell here as well.

Good evening to both of you. Thank you so much for joining.

So, Brendan, Cheney is not backing down. She is forcing everyone to confront all of this, even if she -- even if it means losing her leadership role. You work as a top aide to both Paul Ryan and John Boehner. What do you think about what she is doing and the impact it's going to have on the party?

BRENDAN BUCK, FORMER TOP AIDE TO PAUL RYAN & JOHN BOEHNER: Well, it appears at this point that she knows that her days are numbered. I can't read it any other way into this. That she knows that there's going to be a vote called next week. And she -- I think she realizes that she is probably no longer a good fit but she's not going to make this easy on them.

[22:34:56]

And what I love about what she's doing, is she's not going into hyperbole or saying crazy things about Donald Trump. She's simply saying clearly, obviously true things and it just makes her colleagues squirm and it makes them uncomfortable and she's making them confront uncomfortable truths, not just about Donald Trump, but about themselves.

And I think that's where this is really coming to a head. It's not that she's criticizing Donald Trump. It's that she's making them confront the role that they all played leading up to January 6th, what they said about the election being stolen. Everybody in the House Republican conference say maybe 10 people want to move on from this. They want to forget about it. They want to whitewash it didn't happen.

They don't want to have to answer these questions or have this hanging over Donald Trump's head if he runs again. So, when she's making it uncomfortable for them, you can't be a leader like that when you are basically making life hell for your own members? And so, I understand why she thinks it's untenable and I appreciate that she's going down swinging.

LEMON: Listen, Sarah, given what Brandon said, I don't think he's wrong about that. Then what gives and how much longer do you -- I guess they can do it indefinitely but I'll still pose the question to you. Can you continue to delude yourself into lies and pretend it's reality. Or a better question. How much longer can you continue to shape your own reality?

SARAH LONGWELL, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: Well, it really comes down to the voters. I mean, I have spent the last couple of months talking to Trump voters. And the fact is they believe the lie. They believe that the election is fraudulent. They believe that the insurrection on January 6th was no big deal.

You know, these voters, they want to move on from the Mitt Romneys and the Liz Cheneys, and frankly, from the party that Brandon and I joined and worked for. I mean, it's just not where the voters are anymore. They believe these lies. The reasons the politicians are acting this way is because they believe that the voters want to. They believe that the people who are going to put them in office want to engage in grievance politics. And they do.

Look, when I talk to these voters, it is culture war all the way down. They, even when I talk to them, they say, what are you for, what do you want out of a politician? They have a difficult time articulating what it is they're for but they're excellent at articulating what they are against.

And so, what they want are politicians who are going to go in and fight the media. They are going to fight the Democrats and that's what they liked about Donald Trump. They didn't even care for him entirely personally. The like him who is going to go beat up on their enemies and that's what they're looking for going forward.

And somebody like Liz Cheney who's a rock-ribbed conservative and real policy person, that's just not what interest base voters at this point.

LEMON: So is it, Sarah, is it a feedback loop or, you know, I guess the conventional wisdom would be like would be that the voters believe it because the leaders say it, Donald Trump says it, you know, Kevin McCarthy or Josh Hawley or whoever it is, the, I don't know, what's his name, I forget, Matt Gaetz, or whatever because they say it.

But are they just a mirror of the voters, maybe the voters are saying it and they're just a reflection of it, meaning the leaders, Sarah?

LONGWELL: Yes. Well, this is actually --

LEMON: Or was it just a giant feedback loop?

LONGWELL: Yes, it's an excellent question. But it's a symbiotic relationship. Right? The voters sort of demand more intensity from their elected officials, you know, some of them are angry about the election and think that it was stolen and so the elected officials starts saying that it was stolen which means that more people believe that there's credibility, that the allegations that it was stolen.

And it kind of feeds off with each other. And so, that's exactly right. There's this feedback that is toxifying the Republican incrimination of political stream that is making it less of a political party and more of a cult.

BUCK: Let me add.

LEMON: Go ahead, Brendan. Yes, I was going to say what do you think.

BUCK: I think it's important -- I think it's important to appreciate that Donald Trump changed the way a lot of Republican elected officials think. And they have learned lessons from him that I think they're all trying to take. And that is that their -- they believe now there is a path to winning elections where you never have to worry about anybody other than base Republican voters. And that's a really big change. You know, there was a, you know, you always talk about you got to win a little bit of the middle. And I think what Donald Trump proved to some to them is that if you just never apologized for anything. You pick fights and you just show that you are fighting hard you can turn out enough Republicans.

And what that's done is basically the entire party has turned away from whether they're called the middle or whether you call a traditional Republicans. And they are just throwing them overboard because they think there is a path ahead of them. For them it's comfortable.

I don't ever have to try to appease anybody in the middle. I can just play hard right politics all the time and there's a path there. I think that's what they think works now. I think it's very shortsighted and probably not going to prove -- not to work in the long term but that is what they have internalize from Donald Trump winning the first time and from having a better than expected outcome in the House last time.

[22:40:04]

LEMON: Well, Brendan, it's a shrinking party and that's what, you know, all these laws that they're trying to pass around the country to restrict voting rights and gerrymandering and all that is because they realized without doing that they can't win. The base is shrinking. That base is -- they're not -- they're not inviting anybody into a -- it's a small tent. It's not a big tent.

BUCK: Absolutely. And I think that's one of the tragedies of what's happening her with Liz Cheney. We're telling country is that, you know, that we are a party that doesn't welcome, you know, traditional Republicans anymore.

LEMON: Yes.

BUCK: This is a culture war party, obviously it's a Trump party and those people who, you know, still believe in conservative ideas but aren't comfortable with Donald Trump, this isn't a place for you and that's a really, I think tough signal to send if you think that you're going to have a really workable long-term majority.

LEMON: Brendan, Sarah, great conversation. Thank you. I'll have you back soon. I'll see you later.

LONGWELL: Thank you.

LEMON: So, we have some breaking news tonight to tell you about. Derek Chauvin's attorney filing a motion for a new trial. Will he get one? Stay with us.

[22:45:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON (on camera): Derek Chauvin's lawyer filing a motion for new trial two weeks after the former Minneapolis police officer was convicted of murdering George Floyd. The motion claiming multiple reasons including the impact of publicity, the refusal to change the trials location, failure to sequester the jury and prosecutorial and jury misconduct.

That, as one of the jurors is explaining his decision to participate in last year's march on Washington rally after this picture of him surface online. It shows juror Brandon Mitchell wearing a Black Lives Matter cap and a cap that says get your knee off our necks.

So, joining me now is CNN's senior legal analyst Elie Honig. Elie, good evening to you.

Let me read this and then we'll have a broader discussion.

Prospective jurors were given questionnaires before selection. And I just want to read two questions from that first. Did you or someone else close to you participate in any of the demonstrations or marches against police brutality that took place in Minneapolis after George Floyd's death? Mitchell answered no. The march -- the march he was at was in Washington.

Second, other than what you've already described above, have you, or anyone close to you participated in protests about police use of force or police brutality? He answered no.

So, Elie, are these questions now, these answers now in question because of that photo?

ELIE HONIG, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Yes, Don, they will be in question. If I'm the prosecutor in this case I'm taking this seriously but I'm not losing sleep. Here's why. First of all, virtually every defendant who gets convicted at trial asks for a new trial and then appeals, and very, very few of those arguments succeed because it is a big deal for a judge to throw out a jury verdict.

Now, in this case, the defense is going to argue he lied. He said he never been part of a protest of police violence. There is a photo of him in Washington, D.C. But I think the prosecution has a strong comeback here, which is that was a commemoration of Martin Luther King. It doesn't make it a protest of police violence or a BLM gathering.

And this juror in his questioning basically said all of this. Elsewhere he said he believes Black lives should be protected. He does not want police abusing Black people unnecessarily.

He said he thought the other three officers should have intervened to stop Derek Chauvin. So, if I'm a prosecutor I'm arguing there's nothing new here especially nothing new that would require overthrowing this verdict.

LEMON: OK. So, this is what I said. I want to read this. Because just because someone -- or don't jurors come from the community, they make up the community and they have -- they all come with different lens and their expenses in life. So that's a jury of your peers. But the other thing is because someone -- because the prosecution or the defense would -- depending on the verdict, or whatever, depending on the circumstances, didn't do a good job of voir dire. Does that mean the case should be thrown out?

HONIG: No, exactly right. These jurors were vetted like no jury pool I have ever seen. They filled out extensive questionnaires. They were questioned in person. And again, if the juror had just straight up lied about something material and there was no way the parties could have understood what he was really all about, there might be an issue there.

But when you look at the totality of all the circumstances here it's just not the case. Going to a Martin Luther King commemoration is not necessarily the same thing to say as protesting police for -- use of force. And this jury made clear that he had a problem with that. The defense questioned him. They could have removed him, by the way, Don. They had four strikes to remove jurors --

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: That's what I just said.

HONIG: -- that they didn't use.

LEMON: Yes.

HONIG: So, they questioned him, yes, they questioned him to their hearts content and they said we're fine.

LEMON: Elie Honig, always a pleasure, sir. Thank you. Send me that tie, I like it.

HONIG: Thanks, Don.

LEMON: Thank you very much. Trump made lots of claims about dead people voting. Well, take this. We found a case of voter fraud, and the guy behind it voted for Trump.

[22:50:00]

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LEMON (on camera): I want to you listen up to this. Take this. A Pennsylvania man has been sentenced to five years' probation for voting as a dead person in the 2020 election.

Seventy-year-old Bruce Bartman pleaded guilty for casting a vote on behalf of his deceased mother in an effort to re-elect President Donald Trump. All that talk of voter fraud by the former fraud and one of his supporters is now guilty of doing it.

Bartman also registered his deceased mother-in-law as a Republican but did not submit her ballot. The man's lawyer telling CNN that his client accepts responsibility. Adding that Bartman had been isolated at home because of the pandemic and was misled by, quote, "propaganda and statements that were made about voter fraud."

Now keep in mind Bartman's sentence five years' probation. Because I want to remind you of a different case CNN has covered. That's a case of Crystal Mason, a Black woman who is fighting a five-year prison sentence for voting illegally in the 2016 election. mason said she did not know her status as a felon on release made her ineligible to cast a ballot. She says if she had known that she would not have submitted a provisional ballot.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

NIMA ELBAGIR, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: You had no inclination from anyone at that polling station that there were consequences if you were ineligible to vote and you voted on a provisional ballot?

[22:54:59]

CRYSTAL MASON, SENTENCED TO FIVE YEARS IN JAIL FOR VOTING: No, not at all. I had no idea. There's no way that I would have attempted to vote to leave my children, or to lose my job to go through what I'm doing right now, there's no way that I would have attempted to try to vote.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON (on camera): Her lawyers have disputed whether it's fair to say she even voted at all in 2016 because her provisional ballot was rejected and never tallied. Crystal Mason is out on bond right now and her case is set to be heard by the Texas Court of Criminal Appeals in the next few months.

A Black woman facing five years in prison for a vote that was never tallied. Meanwhile, a white man knowingly votes as his dead mother, he gets five years' probation. Two systems of justice in this country. That's a pretty clear-cut case.

A top Republican is about to be stripped from her leadership all because she won't lie for Donald Trump. Stay with us.

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