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Don Lemon Tonight

Republicans Embrace Trump's Big Lie as They Move to Oust Cheney From Leadership Position; How Trump's Big Lie Will Impact 2022 Midterms; Remembering Fareed's Mom, Fatima Zakaria; Florida's Restrictive New Voting Law; Spike Lee on Marvin Gaye, the State Of Black America; Study Finds Anti-Asian Hate Crimes Surging in 2021; Many Americans are Grappling with Anxiety as U.S. Takes Major Steps Toward Resuming Normal Life; Out-of-Control Chinese Rocket Expected to Hit This Weekend. Aired 11p-12a ET

Aired May 06, 2021 - 23:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[23:00:00]

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DON LEMON, CNN HOST: Tonight GOP Congresswoman Elise Stefanik doubling down on Trump's big lie of election fraud as she tries to maneuver her way into House GOP leadership which is expected to oust Liz Cheney from her number three post next Wednesday. And for this GOP governor building on the big lie, signing into law a controversial bill, putting restrictions on mail-in voting and the use of drop boxes.

Texas poised to do the same at any moment. Opponents of these new laws say that they are designed to deny ballot access to people of color, especially black Americans. In just a few minutes we are going to talk about the state of black America and my new upcoming documentary filmmakers Spike Lee.

So, joining me now, former Obama senior adviser, David Axelrod. It's so good to see you, David. It's been a minute, thanks for joining us this evening.

DAVID AXELROD, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Good to see you, Don.

LEMON: As you look at what's going on with the Republican Party, even with what you went through during the Obama administration, even with what we all watched go down over the past four years, and a half, could you imagine that it would get to this point?

AXELROD: Well, there are so many things I couldn't have imagined over the last several months, Don. And in some ways, this was predictable. You know, Donald Trump was never going to let go of this big lie of his. And as long as he has his grip around the party, they were going to be acolytes who followed him.

And the thing that's incredible about this Cheney story, Liz Cheney is one of the most conservative members of the House. She is one of the most partisan members of the House. She voted with Trump 93 percent of the time. Far more than Elise Stefanik, who scrambled on to the Trump bandwagon when it looked like she might get primaried in her district in upstate New York.

So, what -- this really exposes it. This is not a conservative party. It's a Trump Party. And there is tremendous fear of Donald Trump and he is calling the shots here.

LEMON: What's interesting to me, David, is what this says about the party. Right? But also, about the people who, how susceptible people are to information or misinformation. Do you know what I'm saying? I'm trying to put that in a way that's not insulting to people. Because I'm surprised that most people just don't say, come on, man, really? About Trump and about the people who are telling about this big lie. Like -- come on guys, let's get it together. We see right through it. But they don't.

AXELROD: But you know, Don, this has been a long-term project of Donald Trump's. Remember, he had a session with Leslie Stahl right before he took office and she reported after that, in the discussion before the program, she asked him, why are you always running the media down? And he said because I don't want people to believe you when you say bad things about me. And that has been a long-term project. He's been aided and abetted by his friends at Fox and by social media, and that is only accelerated over time.

And yes, it's pretty frightening, because there is no evidence. And to this day there is no evidence of the massive fraud that he contends. And by the way, he contended there was massive fraud in the last election, and that he had actually won the popular vote. Remember, he appointed a commission of his own loyalists to investigate this and they could not find the evidence then.

So, this is a repeat of what we saw before. And you know, I mean, I don't agree with Liz Cheney on many, many, many things. But at least she has the integrity to say, there are bigger things than party. There are bigger things than Trump. And one of them is the sanctity of elections. So, -- you know, but this project of disinformation by Trump is very intentional and has been going on throughout his first campaign, and his whole presidency was built on it.

LEMON: I want to look ahead now to 2022. Because Democrats have a very narrow majority. And this is what history tells us. The Republicans will be competitive. Is this all about the GOP setting itself up for minority rule moving forward? And how likely is that to happen?

[23:05:06]

AXELROD: Well, look, I think Democrats ought to be worried about 2022. The history of parties that have the White House is that the mid-term elections are challenging. Believe me, I still have tire tracks on my back from 2010 which was a rough election for us in the Obama administration. But redistricting is not going to help Democrats.

I mean, between redistricting and the census, and the shifts in the census, you know, you are going to see a 5-10 point -- 5-10 seat shift in favor of Republicans. So, Democrats are going to start in the whole in 2022. And the real question is, does Trump, does the identification with Trump that he is insisting on, that this Cheney episode underscores, does that undermine their chance to pick up some seats that they might otherwise pick up?

I got to tell you that, you know, sort of conventional Republicans in suburban areas who have been trending away from the Republicans under Trump are not going to be impressed when they oust Liz Cheney next week from her leadership post, because she had the temerity to say the election was legitimate.

LEMON: David, thank you. I appreciate it. Good to see you.

AXELROD: Alright. Good to see you, Don. Thank you.

LEMON: Come back more often. Thank you very much.

AXELROD: I will. Thanks.

LEMON: I want to bring in now Fareed Zakaria, host of CNN's Fareed Zakaria GPS, the author of 10 lessons for a post pandemic world which is on my nightstand. Fareed, it's so good to see you. It's been a while since I've seen you as well. Thank you so much for joining.

FAREED ZAKARIA, FAREED ZAKARIA GPS SHOW HOST: Always a pleasure.

LEMON: So, Liz Cheney is urging the Republican Party to steer away from the dangerous and anti-democratic Trump cult personality. In her op-ed, she goes on to write this. And I quote, history is watching. Our children are watching. We must be brave enough to defend the basic principles that underpin and protect our freedom and our Democratic process. So, she's also warning Trump's language can provoke violence again. Is she right?

ZAKARIA: She's absolutely right. Look, the history of democracy, which is a very brief interlude in human history has been one that suggests, it is very fragile. Democracies get undermined very easily. It's not just the example of Germany. There are many, many examples.

I mean, think about Egypt which went through a flash of democracy and now is a military dictatorship. There are many, many examples all over the world throughout history and almost always, what happens is, a demagogue arises on the scene, somehow captures some part of the population that becomes fanatically devoted to him and their devotion to him becomes more important than their devotion to democracy.

It is that simple. And unfortunately, that's really what has happened to the Republican Party, or a large part of it.

LEMON: So, if people think, I say to my viewers every night. I know you're tired of hearing about this. But this is really important to you. This goes beyond the Republican Party. This affects everyone. This affects the entire country. So, if, what can happen next? If this can happen here now, what happens next?

ZAKARIA: Well, the big danger, I mean, and you've been talking about this eloquently, Don. The big danger is that now one of the two parties in our political system. Not a faction within the party, but the party as a whole. It's entire command structure. And this is a very powerful party. Don't forget. Trump lost but the Republicans did well in 2020.

LEMON: Right.

ZAKARIA: This very powerful force in American politics really in some sense, the majority party in America, has become anti-Democratic. It is trying to find ways to make it harder for Americans to vote. It is trying to find ways that state legislatures can override, you know, the will of the people and choose their own electors. Trying to find ways in which they can subvert the will of the people.

The whole idea behind this Republican movement is that Trump was right. The election of 2020 was a lie. And we have to now reform, quote/unquote, or change the American system to make sure this never happens again. So the whole enterprise is fundamentally anti- Democratic. So the idea that you are going to have one party whose agenda it is to somehow create a less Democratic country in which fewer people vote, in which the votes count for less.

That is a pretty scary prospect. Not since the Jim Crow south in the '50s have we had a situation like this. So you know, I think it will, and by the way, it's going to provoke a reaction on the other side. So, you are going to have an increasingly hostile, polarized environment.

[23:10:08]

Look. You know, who knows where this goes? But if the Republican Party continues on the path it is going down, this is looking more like a, you know, a kind of civil war. I don't mean literally but politics more as a kind of violent struggle than any kind of normal political process.

LEMON: Fareed, I want to -- let's talk about the COVID crisis in India before we go, please. And I know how personal this is for you. And I'm truly, truly sorry. That your mother Fatima Zakaria died from COVID- related complications last month. And I know that your heart is with her and all the people in India who are suffering loss right now. Would you like to say anything about that?

ZAKARIA: Well, I think it is just a reminder, two things. One, it is a reminder that you know, life is very fragile. She was 85 years old. She was, you know, a little bit overweight, diabetic, but she was in good health. She got very good care. But at some point, when you're that old, the body gives out. So, you know, she was, the COVID drugs were working but then she just got a massive heart attack.

And you know, to me it is just a reminder, life is fragile. Treasure it as much as you can. And the other part is just a personal thing that I realized which was, you know, I don't think of these, I think we spend a lot of time with COVID thinking about all the things we would change in the external world. You know, government programs, how would we you know, handle this better with public health issues. We don't spend enough time thinking about what do we need internally to deal with crises like this? What kind of resources of mind and spirit do we need to get through a crisis like this? And you know, here I was, 8,000 miles away and she dies, and I can't

even go and visit. And it makes you realize, you need to spend a little bit of time, and we all do, with this crisis to ask ourselves not just what do we need in the outside world but what do we need inside of us to get through these things. To make us whole. To make us get through it and where we come to a better place.

LEMON: Can we put those pictures back up? That picture back up. Because it is such a beautiful picture Fareed, you and your mom. What a great smile she had.

ZAKARIA: That was the last time I saw her. It was in Abu Dhabi. I took my kids there. We had a very nice Christmas. She did not realize, you know, obviously, what was in store. Neither did I. You know, it was the moment of, the last great moment of happiness we had together.

LAMMY: Fareed, we're thinking about you. We love you here. You know how much we love you and you know how much I love you and I'm so glad. I appreciate you sharing your thoughts. Thanks so much. And again, we're just so sorry. We're here for you. Thank you.

ZAKARIA: Thank you, Don.

LEMON: Thank you very much. I have to turn back to the news now after that. Because we need to talk about the news here in the states. And we need to talk about CNN legal analyst and Republican election lawyer Ben Ginsburg. He's here to discuss what's happening with the GOP. Ben, thank you. I appreciate you joining us. Good to see you.

BEN GINSBERG, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Good to see you.

LEMON: It's been a tough time for a lot of us. For everybody, right?

GINSBERG: Yes.

LEMON: Listen. The GOP has continued to push Trump's big lie. But part of the strategy is also to restrict voting rights across the country. Fareed was just talking about that. Today we are seeing it in Texas and in Florida. But you say the strategy could backfire on Republicans. I find this fascinating. Go. Explain how please.

GINSBERG: A number of ways. Look. First of all, these bills cast Republicans in a very sort of mean-spirited light. And as David Axelrod was discussing, Republicans are having trouble with a significant part of their base. That's largely suburban and college educated. And bills like this that have the intent of stopping people who may not like Republicans from voting, will have an impact on those voters who will also provide a real get out the vote motivational tool for Democrats.

In a state like Florida, Republicans have traditionally dominated absentee voting. Not so much in 2020 in the pandemic year, but historically, they have. And so, this is an action, in Florida, may actually end up hurting Republicans.

[23:15:04] In Florida, overall, it was a system that was not broken. Republicans

did very well. Trump won, Republicans picked up two Congressional seats, five state legislative seats, despite a major Democratic initiative to take back the chamber. And all those reasons combined sort of mean, why are you doing this, folks?

LEMON: Yes. It's true. I think, it looks like they're overcorrecting, and their overcorrection is going to hurt themselves. They are going to hurt themselves. What about this crazy audit? I want to talk about the one that is happening in Arizona's Maricopa County. There have already been two audits that found no widespread fraud. Now Republicans are reportedly having ballot (inaudible) for traces of bamboo, all because of this conspiracy theory that ballots were flown in from someplace in Asia. Ben, it's crazy. Its nuts.

GINSBERG: Well, it is a little bit off the rails. I think that's a fair statement. Look, the notion of the audit in a sense had some logic to it. There is a problem that we've got in this country, a ticking time bomb with 30 percent of the electorate, 70 percent of Republicans, not believing the result of the election.

That is a bad ingredient for a democracy. If the Arizona audit had been a responsible bipartisan, nonpartisan, transparent audit, it could have tested the theories that Trump was putting out that the election was stolen somehow. And it could have allowed proof of that to come forward. It could have been a reasonable basis for election reforms.

Instead, Arizona Senate Republicans, it made a real mistake. Because this audit is neither transparent, nor is it being conducted under norms that, whatever they come up with, it is going to be universally accepted or respected.

LEMON: Ben Ginsberg, I'll have you back. We need to talk more. But thank you so much. We are going to leave it there.

GINSBERG: Thanks, Don. And by the way, Fareed put all this election stuff in the proper perspective. And we need to remember that as well.

LEMON: Yes. Absolutely. Ben Ginsberg, thank you.

We've been talking about a lot of issues related to race in America. And I have a new documentary coming out this weekend that I think will surprise you. It is about a huge star and the impact he has still 50 years later. And one of the people I interviewed for it is another huge star and he's here with me. Next. Mr. Spike Lee, right after the break.

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[23:20:00]

LEMON: There's a lot to talk about the state of black America tonight. People of color breathing a sigh of relief over Derek Chauvin's conviction in George Floyd's murder. And it appears that we're getting COVID under control. That's great. It really struck a lot of people especially hard.

But at the same time, GOP controls state of passing these restrictive voting laws and that hurts black voters. No one better to discuss that in the state of black America than filmmaker, Spike Lee and he joins me now.

Spike Lee, we have a lot to talk about. We are going to talk about Marvin Gaye and the film that I'm working on. But also, how it relates to what happening with America, especially with black Americans today. We are coming up. Good evening, sir. Thanks for joining us.

Coming up on summer, people are getting vaccinated. The economy is bouncing back. States are opening up. You look around the country and it seems like things are on the up, but is that the case for black folks?

SPIKE LEE, FILM DIRECTOR: I think that black and brown people, you know, we're still lagging behind all the key categories. And hopefully not back to normal, normal. But it is encouraging that things are opening up. I'm here in New York City. And people are out today, my wife went out to dinner, Tanya, you know, Tanya who was -- restaurant was packed. So people just want to let loose.

LEMON: You took the words out of my mouth. I was going to say let loose.

LEE: Especially, Don, you're here. You know it is not even hot, hot, hot. When it gets hot here in New York --

LEMON: When it gets summer hot.

LEE: Crazy. Do the right thing hot.

(LAUGHTER)

LEMON: Yeah. But you're right. I mean, we're not back to normal, normal, as you say, but I think there's a new normal that should be in the air after everything that has happened over the last year and especially the unrest of the summer of 2020. You and I recently spoke for a documentary special that I'm hosting about what is going on the day through the lens of Marvin Gaye's album, what's going on.

LEE: Thank you for doing that. Thank you for doing that. Thank you. And I'll be watching it too.

LEMON: Yes. OK. I hope everyone watches. But listen, 50 years, we're on the 50-year anniversary of that number one album of all time by Rolling Stone. What links do you see between what's going on today and the movement back then? Is there a straight line?

LEE: Yes. Marvin Gaye was a prophet. You go to that album, side a, side b. Everything Marvin Gaye the prophet was singing about, everything he wrote about, you know, there's a term. You know, he was Niggodamus --

(LAUGHTER) LEMON: You're a (inaudible). Sorry. I forget we're on TV.

(LAUGHTER)

[23:25:02]

LEE: Marvin, you know, he had the crystal ball.

LEMON: Yes.

LEE: I'll use the word again, prophet. And you go from that album, track by track by track. It still, 50 years ago, it is still relevant. Still current. And I've always felt that the great stuff, the album, now a movie, book, play, art, the great stuff never gets old. It's timeless.

LEMON: Yes, It's prophecy. Yes. You're right. I want to play part of our conversation. Here it is.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

(MUSIC PLAYING)

LEE (voice over): You can say that could be the zenith of black music.

LEMON (voice over): Why did you say the zenith of black music?

LEE: The world we live in, man. You know its Black power. Soul train.

LEMON: Sexy.

LEE: We are just (inaudible).

LEMON: We were feeling ourselves.

LEE: We were. And the way we're dressing, the way we are dancing. The way we were dancing. Black folks were getting down.

LEMON: I felt like we were coming into our own after the civil rights movement.

LEE: Yes! Marvin was telling us what's going on. Like he had an antenna. This album came out in 1971. I was a sophomore in high school. John Dew High School in Coney Island. And in the library, they had turn tables. So if you brought an album, they had head phones. You put the album on and headphones. And so, I would cut class to listen to his albums. This mojo, right here, timeless. Timeless.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: I cannot wait to watch it. Spike, you're going to love it. Talk to me about the impact of this album -- what's going on head on black America.

LEE: Well, it was awakening. But also, it affected other black musicians, artists. United Kingdom, they saw what Marvin did. They had to step up. Marvin, that album, he raised the bar. Everybody had to get their stuff tight because Marvin, you know, he upped the ante. He upped the ante that you could do an album that deals with politics but people are going to listen -- people still going to buy it.

LEMON: It wasn't preachy but you got the message. And I mean, every word, every phrase, every song, perfect, perfect, perfect. Spoke to the time and then still speaks to what's going on right now.

LEE: And also, I would like to say, Marvin was not just talking about, you know, what black folks were doing. He was talking about the ecology, he was talking about world issues. This album is not just for black folks.

LEMON: Right, he was talking about Vietnam.

LEE: You know, if that was the case, Rolling Stone wouldn't have voted. I'll do an Ali here of all time.

(LAUGHTER)

LEMON: I love you, Spike. You're right. They talked about Vietnam, they talked about the environment. They talked about drug abuse addiction. As I said, war, about God, about saving the children, everything. Spike, you know how this works. I've got to go. But I'm so -- thank you for doing this.

LEE: I'll be watching. I'm telling everyone to watch this too.

LEMON: Wait until you see our interview -- and wait until you see the interview with Smoky. I got to sing with Stevie wonder. Can you believe that?

LEE: Oh, you got Stevie too?

LEMON: I got Stevie. And Stevie and I were singing. Looking back on when I was a little nappy headed boy -- ha! See you, Spike. Thank you, sir.

LEE: I'm out. Take care.

LEMON: You be well. Say hi to your wife. Make sure you watch what's going on, Marvin Gaye's anthem for the ages. It premieres Sunday 8:00 p.m.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

(MUSIC PLAYING)

UNKNOWN: Marvin Gaye's groundbreaking what's going on.

UNKNOWN: It was the first time that I understood poetry.

UNKNOWN: It's one of the greatest albums ever made.

(MUSIC PLAYING)

[23:30:00]

UNKNOWN: His melody was like a voice of pride.

UNKNOWN: He created something that lasts.

(MUSIC PLAYING)

UNKNOWN (voice-over): Fifty years later --

(MUSIC PLAYING)

UNKNOWN (voice-over): Why is it an anthem for a new generation?

UNKNOWN: It's prophecy, man.

LEMON: What do you think Marvin would think about "What's Going On?"

UNKNOWN (voice-over): CNN Special Report, What's Going On: Marvin Gaye's Anthem for the Ages, Sunday at 8:00.

(MUSIC PLAYING)

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[23:35:00]

LEMON: Hate crimes against Asian-Americans spiking since the beginning of this year, up 164 percent over the same period last year. That is according to a study by Cal State University. More tonight from CNN's Amara Walker.

(BEGIN VIDEO TAPE)

AMARA WALKER, CNN ANCHOR AND CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): A 36-year-old Asian-American father beaten by a stranger last Friday as he was standing near an intersection in San Francisco with his one-year-old baby in a stroller, according to San Francisco police.

BRUCE, VICTIM OF ATTACK: I couldn't protect my child and I was on the floor and he was in a stroller that was slowly actually rolling away. So, it was definitely very scary as a parent. I was trying to shield my head and trying to prevent any, like, worse injuries.

WALKER (voice-over): When asked if he thought he was targeted because of his race, Bruce said it crossed his mind. The San Francisco police say the attack appeared to be random and that 26-year-old Sidney Hammond has been charged with assault and child endangerment among others.

Also on the streets of San Francisco, two elderly women, a 63-year-old and an 84-year-old, who were waiting for the bus, both stabbed on Tuesday.

PATRICIA LEE, WITNESSED VIOLENT ATTACK: It was a pretty big knife. It cannot push on the handle and he got like a blade, the blade has like holes in there like a military knife. Her back was turned, and all I see is the feathers came out of her jacket. So I'm very sure that he -- she got sliced.

WALKER (voice-over): San Francisco police say they have not ruled this incident out as a hate crime. Fifty-four-old Patrick Thompson has been charged with attempted murder and elder abuse.

In New York, two Asian-American women also targeted, this time with a hammer. In this video, you see the suspect approaching the women from behind. Authorities say the individual demands they take off their masks and then swings at them with a hammer. The victims fight back. The NYPD Hate Crime Task Force is investigating and asking the public to help track down the suspect.

These are just the latest in a wave of attacks against Asian-Americans since the pandemic began in 2020. According to Stop AAPI Hate, a national coalition that tracks anti-Asian hate, there have been more than 6,600 incidents against Asian-Americans and Pacific Islanders reported from March of 2020 to March of this year with most of them happening in public places and businesses.

New York City has seen the largest spike in anti-Asian hate crimes, a 223 percent increase in the first quarter of 2021, compared to the same period last year, according to the California State University Center for the Study of Hate and Extremism.

CONNIE CHUNG JOE, CEO, ASIAN AMERICANS ADVANCING JUSTICE-LOS ANGELES: We're talking too much about, OK, we need hate crimes laws. That helps after the fact.

WALKER (voice-over): In April, the U.S. Senate overwhelmingly passed an anti-Asian hate crimes bill that aims to create awareness and expedite reviews of crimes targeting Asian-Americans.

But Connie Chung Joe of Asian Americans Advancing Justice Los Angeles says more needs to be done to prevent these kinds of attacks, rather than only responding to them.

CHUNG JOE: We are really pushing for things like community safety programs, bystander intervention, chaperoning or escort services, neighborhood watches, things that really make us safe in our own neighborhoods and in real-time.

(END VIDEO TAPE)

WALKER: And Don, I want to update you on the Atlanta spa massacre that happened back in March that killed eight people, including six Asian women, the investigation remains open. Authorities are still trying to figure out the suspect's motive.

So, it is unclear right now if hate crime charges will be filed by prosecutors in Fulton and Cherokee counties, although a source is telling us that that determination could be made soon. In the meantime, that suspect remains behind bars without bond. Don?

LEMON: It disgusting to witness all of this that's going on. And that person in your story is very right, we need to figure out ways to stop and prevent it rather than just responding to it. Amara, great reporting. Thank you so much. I appreciate you joining us.

So for ways which you can combat anti-Asian racism, please go to cnn.com/impact.

The country is reopening. People are taking their masks off and feeling all sorts of anxiety about it. We're going to tell you how to deal with it. That's next.

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[23:40:00]

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LEMON: The United States making major strides against coronavirus. The average daily new cases now are at the lowest level in nearly seven months. All great news. But despite the progress, many Americans are still concerned about a return to pre-pandemic life.

A recent CNN poll showing nearly a third of Americans are not comfortable going back to normal routines. We've been living with restrictions for more than a year, social distancing and wearing masks. Well, now, things are drastically changing.

I want to bring in now Kenneth Carter, professor of psychology at Oxford College of Emory University. Thank you, sir, for joining us.

This is amazing because I have been spending -- I finally got on an airplane recently. I travelled to the West Coast to do the documentary that we just -- I just talked to Spike Lee about. And I had friends there who going to lunch one day was all they could do in one day and it was really an effort for them to get back to normal life. And they don't want to go back into the work environment right now.

[23:45:00]

LEMON: This is real.

KENNETH CARTER, PROFESSOR OF PSYCHOLOGY AT OXFORD COLLEGE OF EMORY UNIVERSITY: Yeah, absolutely. Katherine Wu wrote an article in The Atlantic about which she is calling post-vaccination inertia. People who aren't ready to enter into the things they can do, even if they are vaccinated, people who really aren't ready to sort of enter into the things they can do, even if they are vaccinated.

LEMON: Hmmm. And why is that? Explain what is behind that.

CARTER: Yeah. So, whenever we make a decision, we're making these mental calculations all the time about, you know, what the risk is and what the reward is. And, you know, I was fully vaccinated maybe about a month ago but things don't seem different, you know, because you can't tell who is vaccinated and who is not, and so you're still trying to make the best calculations are going to continue to keep you safe.

LEMON: Mm-hmm. Well, it's interesting because -- what do you think behind it? People have been sitting at home so much. I think -- quite honestly, I think people have -- I don't know if they lost but their social skills have certainly diminished.

CARTER: Yeah, absolutely. I think part of this we're getting used to doing those social things. But for a lot of people, there's a lot of anxiety around the danger of COVID. And after they've been vaccinated, it takes a while for that anxiety to power down again. You just can't turn it off.

I mean, we're hoping that the pandemic is sun-setting but there not going to be a big sign that flashes, everything is safe, it's fine. And so you have to sort of take small steps to do the things that are going to make you feel safe and comfortable.

LEMON: Of course, Kenneth, people have been acting like nothing has happened, resisting masks, rejecting guidelines, refusing vaccines. And those people don't seem to be anxious at all. What explains that?

CARTER: Yeah. I mean, there will be a bunch of people who are, you know, maybe have already been out in the world, never were that anxious to begin with. A set of people, they are taking some, you know, measured steps. And then a small set, actually about 30 percent, you suggested, that really aren't ready yet because they're not necessarily feeling as safe as they might be.

LEMON: Hmm. Kenneth Carter, such great information. This is real. I know people who -- and members of my family who -- they're having a hard time getting back to normal. Even I -- I find myself when I'm outside, I'm like, oh, I cannot -- I don't have to wear a mask.

But when I take it off, I feel guilty and I look around and say, why everyone else is wearing their masks? But I know I don't have to because that's the guidance right now. It's really -- it's going to be interesting to watch to see what happens.

Thank you so much, sir. I appreciate it.

CARTER: Thanks so much.

LEMON: Debris from a Chinese rocket rushing towards Earth expected to hit this weekend. But where will it hit? That's a total mystery.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[23:50:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: The Pentagon says that they have no plans to shoot down a school -- a school bus-sized section of a Chinese rocket hurdling towards Earth. Right now, it is barrelling towards our atmosphere at 18,000 miles an hour. The military says that they -- they don't know where the debris will impact until it gets closer to Earth. It's expected to hit sometime this weekend. I want to bring in now Jonathon McDowell. He is an astrophysicist with Harvard-Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics. OK, good evening. This is scary.

JONATHAN MCDOWELL, ASTROPHYSICIST, HARVARD-SMITHSONIAN CENTER FOR ASTROPHYSICS: Good evening, Don.

(LAUGHTER)

LEMON: This is scary.

MCDOWELL: It's not as -- it's not as scary as it sounds.

LEMON: OK.

MCDOWELL: I will grant you, it sounds bad, but -- and it's not great. I mean, we are getting, yeah, as you say a school bus-sized thing is going to slam into the Earth. It's -- it's -- when it enters the atmosphere, it will melt because it's going so fast --

LEMON: OK.

MCDOWELL: -- and break up into little chunks that will then slam into the Earth at just a few hundred miles an hour. And so you don't want to be standing in front of one of those.

LEMON: Or under.

MCDOWELL: But -- but, you know, it's more like a small plane crash than a mega catastrophe. So, I hear a lot of panic on the internet. We don't want that. But it's -- it's definitely something that we don't want to have happen. And this is the -- the second-biggest, uncontrolled re-entry in 30 years.

LEMON: What was the first?

MCDOWELL: So, the first was the same rocket a year ago.

LEMON: OK. All right.

MCDOWELL: The same type of rocket. The Chinese had this new type of rocket called the Long March 5B. And unlike other big rockets, it litters space by leaving its big 20-ton core stage in orbit after it's delivered its satellite. American rockets, Russian rockets, European rockets don't do that. They dispose of their core stage during launch in a safe location.

LEMON: OK. So, will it -- will there be enough time? Because you said -- you are saying it's not close enough to Earth to predict where -- where it might land, right? Where it might -- where it might come down.

MCDOWELL: Yeah. It's -- it's actually whizzing about, you know, a couple hundred miles up in a circle around the Earth. And every time it goes around, it gets a little closer.

LEMON: Mm-hmm.

MCDOWELL: And so eventually, it gets low enough because there is a big headwind, right? Even in the very thin outer atmosphere, it is a big headwind that is slowing it down. It gets closer and closer and closer until it gets so low that the density of the atmosphere is so hot, so big, it makes it so hot that it just melts and bursts into flame and breaks into pieces.

[23:55:00]

MCDOWELL: And so when exactly is that going to happen? You know, it's traveling, like we said, at 18,000 miles an hour around the Earth.

LEMON: But my question is will there be enough time to predict and warn people? Like, hey, it's going to land somewhere, you know, over New Jersey. I'm just saying it, not that it's going to happen over New Jersey.

MCDOWELL: Right, exactly. The point is that if you are an hour out in when you think it's going to break up, then because it's going too fast, you're 18,000 miles out in where you are going to warn people. And so, in fact, we're just not going to know where it hits until after it crashes.

(LAUGHTER)

MCDOWELL: I know that's frustrating. Expect science to come up with the right answer, but sometimes we have to live with uncertainty.

LEMON: Jonathan --

MCDOWELL: And so --

LEMON: You are an astrophysicist. That is a big title. I can't even spell it. And you should know things like that just because you're an astrophysicist.

(LAUGHTER)

LEMON: Thank you, Jonathan.

MCDOWELL: Well, that's one thing people miss about science, right? Is science is not about having these really precise answers, like Mr. Spock (ph) says, oh, the answer is 4.1832. It's about knowing what your uncertainties are.

LEMON: All right. I got to get out of here in warp speed, though. Thank you, Jonathan. And thanks for watching, everyone. Our coverage continues.

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