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Don Lemon Tonight

GOP Reps Gaetz and Greene Sing Trump's Praises at Rally as House GOP Prepares to Oust Cheney From Leadership; Don Lemon Interviews Douglas Brinkley About Democracy and GOP; Don Lemon Interviews Catherine Rampell About Economy, Unemployment and Jobs; Four Ex-Police Officers Charged With Violating George Floyd's Civil Rights. Aired 11p-12a ET

Aired May 07, 2021 - 23:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[23:00:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DON LEMON, CNN HOST: GOP Representative Matt -- representatives Matt Gaetz and Marjorie Taylor Greene holding a pro-Trump pep rally in Florida tonight as House Republicans appear to strip Liz Cheney of her number three leadership post for standing up to Trump and calling out his big lie of election fraud.

A grim note on the jobs front, the U.S. economy is adding only 266,000 jobs in April, when economists and the White House were expecting that number to be around one million. So, what does it mean for the economy?

Also, tonight, Derek Chauvin and three other ex-Minneapolis police officers indicted on federal charges of violating George Floyd's civil rights. Chauvin was convicted of Floyd's murder in Minnesota state court last month.

I want to bring in now CNN global affairs analyst Susan Glasser, and Brendan Buck, the former top aide to Paul Ryan and John Boehner. Good evening to both of you. Good to see both of you.

Susan, Matt Gaetz, Marjorie Taylor Greene telling their supporters that they want to hear tonight. What they want to hear tonight? Watch this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. MARJORIE TAYLOR GREENE (R-GA): I just got to check something. I just want to make sure I'm in the right place.

(CHEERING)

TAYLOR GREENE: Tell me, who is your president?

CROWD: Donald Trump!

TAYLOR GREENE: That's my president, too. OK, I just want to make sure I was with friends and family. REP. MATT GAETZ (R-FL): We have never abandoned Trump, and he has never abandoned America. He is still fighting for us, he will continue to fight for us, and we're going to have his back when he does.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: Susan, let's be honest. This is crazy. This is madness. This -- this is from one lawmaker under investigation for alleged sex trafficking and another who has pushed QAnon lies. How are Republican leaders not putting a lid on this?

SUSAN GLASSER, CNN GLOBAL AFFAIRS ANALYST: Don, you know, they are -- they are on the same side at this point, the Republican leaders. I'm getting some real cult of personality vibes, you know, from -- from that rally, which, of course, has been the entire Trump political phenomenon.

And I think what we've seen with Liz Cheney this weekend, the Republicans preparing to literally throw out their number three ranking leader in House of Representatives because she says Joe Biden was legitimately elected, it's -- it's -- it's not surprising, but we're right back to the leg, just because it's not surprising doesn't mean it's not shocking.

LEMON: Brendan, when you -- an honest question. Are you embarrassed by this about your party when you watched this?

BRENDAN BUCK, FORMER ADVISER TO PAUL RYAN AND JOHN BOEHNER: Absolutely.

(LAUGHTER)

BUCK: It has become a bit of a carnival. But Matt Gaetz is a circus clown. I hate that we're actually even talking about him. He is clearly trying to distract from some of the issues he has got going on in his life. But, you know, he is a perfect symbol for what we have become. It's all an act. It's all a charade. It's all sucking up to Donald Trump.

Imagine you get elected to Congress and you have all these things that you could do to try improve people's lives, and you go around and you put on acts like this, you know, it is debasing, you would think, for someone like that, but it's what sells and what gets you famous and what gets you on TV in today's Republican Party.

And yeah, like, I wish that we cared about things. I wish that we were a party that had ideas or was trying to accomplish things that are good for people, but instead, we are sucking up to Donald Trump.

[23:05:02]

LEMON: Yeah. Congratulations. That was sarcasm. Listen. I want to read this quote, Susan, and it's from your New Yorker article. You write, "Trump has learned the lesson of the previous demagogues: the bigger and more flagrant the untruth, the better to prove the fealty of his party. After all, it actually demands more loyalty to follow your leader into an absurd conspiracy theory than it does to toe the official lime when it doesn't require a mass suspension of disbelief."

Why don't these Republicans understand that it is -- it is Cheney today, but it could be them tomorrow, and if they don't toe the official line, no matter how absurd, it could be them?

GLASSER: Well, because, I think, that they have made a fundamentally different calculation. Brendan made the point it is to show they're willing members and cast in the show.

You know, they see someone like Elise Stefanik who is an obscure person with not that much of a future from upstate New York. She is out of step ideologically with much of the Republican Party. She's more moderate than them. Donald Trump has been like a rocket ship to the top for her. And, you know, there are other people who have made that calculation.

And by the way, the other thing that demagogues do is they look to divide, and they look for enemies. And Donald Trump and his supporters right now, I think, are delighted to be talking about Liz Cheney and about who is in our group and who is not in our group, rather than some of the other ways in which Donald Trump hasn't had a very good week, being banned again or still banned from Facebook.

You know, mentions of Trump have gone way down in the last few months. You know, Rudy Giuliani, his lawyer is under a serious investigation. We are not talking about that, right. We are talking about the enemy, and I think that's a classic Trump demagogue play.

LEMON: Brendan, just -- Elise Stefanik, Susan just spoke about her, in order to make a point. I want you to listen to what she said. This was back in 2015.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. ELISE STEFANIK (R-NY) (VOICE-OVER): I think in the presidential field, there are some candidates, who over the long run and they've already started this process, are somewhat disqualifying themselves with untruthful statements.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: So, you used to work with Stefanik back on Paul Ryan's team in 2012. Can you help us out here? Can you believe what she is -- what you are seeing from her now?

BUCK: Yeah. I think Elise, her evolution, actually tracks pretty closely with the evolution of a lot of Republican voters. It really drives with her district, for being honest about where she has come from and where she is now. She comes from a district that elected or voted for Barack Obama twice. So she came into Congress as a moderate. That was what she thought that her district, you know, wanted as a Republican, a non-scary Republican.

Now, her district has twice voted for Donald Trump in big numbers. It's an area where you got a lot of older, white, union types. They are Trump voters now in that upstate New York area. And so she reinvented herself. She said, well, they used to want a moderate, and now they want a Trump representative. And so she completely changed herself in the way the party did. And now, the stuff that she is saying and doing are quite popular there. I think that's really what the evolution is all about.

If you're looking for a through line, it's her voters, and so much of the Republican Party. If you talk about elected officials, they're actually reflecting what voters want, and her district wants this.

LEMON: Wow! OK. Susan, a friend of Cheney's told you that Cheney orchestrated that op-ed by all 10 living former defense secretaries, warning about Trump's involving the military in election disputes. I mean, that was posted on January 3rd. So, she saw a real threat. What do you think she -- she is going to do now?

GLASSER: Well, that's right, Don. I think that Liz Cheney was concerned, and it's just been building for months. It's not just like a sudden dispute that has erupted with her and the rest of the House Republican leadership.

She just from the election on, I think, according to my reporting, she just -- she couldn't take the idea that the president of the United States was going to refuse to accept the legitimate outcome of an election. I do think that she has made a decision that others who oppose Trump have not, which is to continue the fight. She is not fighting for her leadership post anymore, but she has clearly decided to keep speaking out in a way that is quite different.

I should note that Liz Cheney did not do this when Donald Trump was president. She and many other members of the republican establishment in Washington, they clearly didn't like Donald Trump or found some of his policy positions distasteful. But they, by in large, did not do what she is doing right now. It is a striking break, really, for what she and others decided which was to accommodate Trump largely when he was in power.

LEMON: Yeah. She was very supportive of the former president, at least voting on his policies, and now this.

[23:10:00]

LEMON: Thank you both. I appreciate it.

I want to bring in CNN presidential historian Doug Brinkley. Doug, good evening to you. The GOP is now --

DOUGLAS BRINKLEY, CNN PRESIDENTIAL HISTORIAN: Good evening.

LEMON: -- completely wrapped up in a bed of lies. Republicans willing to speak out are being cast aside. The party answers to just one man, and that is the former guy. How would you rate the health of our democracy right now?

BRINKLEY: Democracy is sick. I mean, when you have 70 percent of Republicans believing in the big lie, believing that Joe Biden is not a legitimate president, it is a crisis, because we thrive on our two- party system and we tend to want to gravitate towards the center. But instead, you are seeing the right get more far right and it is really now a party of conspiracy theorists.

Liz Cheney is like a relic of the old George W. Bush years. Her father, of course, is the famous Dick Cheney. But people like Bill Kristol and Elliott Abrams, the neocon group, they are gone. The conservatives are gone. It is not about your voting record. It's about allegiance and loyalty to Donald Trump. So the battle in the country is between democracy versus authoritarianism right now.

LEMON: But when you say all of that, look at what they stand for, if they stand for anything. But look at -- you know there are insurrectionists who believe that the election was stolen by people of color in large urban areas. The Jewish space lasers, lies on top of lies. No real policies, just appearing on Fox News and other conservative sites.

Is there -- is there a backbone to the Republican Party? Is there -- do they believe in anything except for selfishness?

BRINKLEY: I think they believe in Donald Trump. It really is the -- he is considered the savior --

LEMON: So they believe in nothing?

BRINKLEY: They believe in nothing. Just -- but we see it, Don, in dictatorships around the world. We just didn't see it here. I mean, we've had these demagogues. We've had Huey Long in Louisiana or something. But they were usually localized and they were stomped out quickly. I mean, Joe McCarthy was a senator. He wasn't a U.S. president.

But Trump, I thought, would be -- would be a deflated figure at best as ex-president. January 6th was only, you know, a couple of months ago. But he is the king of Mar-a-Lago. Everybody is kissing his ring. The weather vane to follow, I guess, is Lindsey Graham, who is saying there's no Republican Party without Donald Trump.

The purging of Liz Cheney is just one of many manifestations. It is the Trump Republicans. The crisis is where do the honest conservatives go? I don't know how they can sit and stay in a party based on lies and conspiracy theories. They might need to find and create a third -- a new kind of conservative party movement to put a wedge into the game right now.

LEMON: You need to pick someone smart to bow down to. Thank you very much. I appreciate it. Douglas, I'll see you soon.

President Biden saying the country still has a long way to go in its economic recovery or economy recovery after a week jobs report for April. Only 266,000 jobs are being added to the economy. Economists had been predicting around one million or so jobs. So those job numbers from March were also revised down to 770,000 from 916,000 initially reported.

So I want to bring in now CNN economics commentator Catherine Rampell. If I can get my mouth to work tonight. Hi, Catherine. Good to see you.

CATHERINE RAMPELL, CNN ECONOMICS COMMENTATOR: Good to see you.

LEMON: So, what happened?

RAMPELL: You know, it is puzzling. I think there are a number of factors here. Some of it may just be frankly weird measurement issues, like the number of couriers went down last month. Nobody really knows why. Maybe it's some seasonal adjustment thing.

In manufacturing, there were job losses probably related to the fact that there are shortages of microchips which have, you know, sort of created bottlenecks elsewhere in the supply chain. If you're making a car, for example, that's going to hold up production.

But, there are other sectors where employers are claiming that they are having a lot of difficulty finding workers. They say that they have openings and that they are unable to fill those openings, particularly in industries like restaurants or hotels, lower wage service sectors.

And there is a real question here about whether that is the case, whether, for example, more generous unemployment benefits may be discouraging people who are not working from getting reemploy.

LEMON: Yeah.

RAMPELL: The employers themselves are saying that. And look, that may be true for some people. There are a lot of other factors, of course, that these workers may be weighing, including maybe they don't have child care. Maybe they're having trouble getting to work because there had been public transit cuts.

[23:15:02]

RAMPELL: They're worried about getting sick. They're worried about confrontations with customers who don't want to wear masks. There have been a bunch of high-profile stories about that.

So, there's a lot going on here, and we don't really know to what extent workers are turning down jobs, but we have to really hope that a number of those factors let up. You know, schools reopen, for example, so that if people are hesitant to go back to work, they will see the appeal in doing so.

LEMON: Yeah. Listen, I think all of those, what you said, legitimate. I've heard people. There are a lot of people who are having issues really re-emerging into society. Leaving their homes, right? Being around other people.

But also, you are right. A lot of people don't want to have to deal with customers or people who don't want to wear masks and so on. But that is a big difference of what they expected and what they actually got.

RAMPELL: Right. LEMON: Yeah.

RAMPELL: Right. I mean, especially since obviously people are getting vaccinated in higher numbers today. These restrictions have been alleviated. So you would think that there is a lot more hiring going on than there has been. That's why the number -- the expectations were so huge, right?

LEMON: But, Catherine --

RAMPELL: -- million jobs.

LEMON: If anybody tries to work around their house, a renovation, put up a fence or anything, do you know how hard it is now to do that and how expensive it is? Lumber is really expensive. So, construction -- is construction booming? I would think it is, or no, can you not get supplies?

RAMPELL: The supply issues have been a real bottleneck in construction and among other industries, in fact. You know, I mentioned in manufacturing, this has been an issue because of microchips. But lumber is a great example. Lumber prices have gone through the roof.

LEMON: Yeah.

RAMPELL: No pun intended. And that has held back the construction industry. So there's a lot of weird stuff going on in the economy right now. Some of it may be related to government policy, some of it related to the fact that we are, like, still just trying to escape from this horrible pandemic year, more than a year that we have been in so far.

And the real question is, was last month's slowdown in job growth a blip, hopefully, or is it something more injuring? Because if it is like the new path, that would be very bad. It would take more than another two and a half years before we recovered all the jobs lost since the pandemic began, which obviously we do not want.

LEMON: I do have to say, not high in jobs. I would not know about that. People, you know, they don't put up help wanted signs in the window. But everywhere I go, restaurants, supermarkets, shops, you see the help wanted signs. And I do have friends who own businesses. They say they can't find people to work. There is a shortage of workers.

Thank you, Catherine.

RAMPELL: Thank you.

LEMON: I appreciate it. It is good to see you.

Four ex-police officers are now facing civil rights charges in the death of George Floyd. Charges like these against police officers are rare. Can prosecutors make their case? That is the question.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) [23:20:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: A federal grand jury indicting Derek Chauvin and three other ex-Minneapolis police officers for civil rights violations in George Floyd's death. Chauvin charged with depriving Floyd of his right to be free from -- quote -- "unreasonable force by a police officer," just weeks after being found guilty of Floyd's murder.

So joining me now is CNN senior legal analyst Laura Coates. Laura, good evening. Good to see you. So, let's -- the civil rights charges like this are rare. What do you think now? What do you think now that four of them have been charged? What's up?

LAURA COATES, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: Well, you know, mormally, we think about the idea of the federal government stepping in and they always have the right to be able to investigate. It's really their duty to ensure that the constitutional and civil rights of Americans are upheld.

Normally, they will wait until after they see what the state is doing so as not to interfere or to step on toes. And you can see very easily, they could have gone in prior, just ahead the grand jury, federal level, done the indictment, but they saw the convictions, and now they said there are still more work to be done, and that work is in the form of what is called the color of law.

Meaning an officer cannot use his or her badge or the authority that we vest in them as people who are public servants to take advantage of or infringe on someone's constitutional rights. That is the idea of the Fourth Amendment excessive force.

So, federal government is saying hey, the state level charges, that's one thing, but we have federal jurisdiction to protect one's constitutional right, and we will do that now.

LEMON: Derek Chauvin has been convicted for murder, but the three other officers facing charges related to George Floyd's death, they have not had their day in court. Their trial is set for the summer. What does this mean for their cases, if anything?

COATES: You know, many of us thought when you are watching the trial at a state level of Derek Chauvin, because some of the presentation of evidence that came into the prosecution, including one particular officer who we noted was actually asking to be turned him towards his side or on his side, is there a concern for, say, delirium and whatnot. There may have been an opportunity.

People thought to have plea negotiations re-entered into again and maybe resolve the trial -- resolve their cases short of a trial, because they were charged with accessories. Essentially, they were aiding and abetting the principal defendant, Derek Chauvin, when he was convicted, the thought was perhaps it might not end in a trial for them. They may plead out. It's still a possibility. But now, you add on the federal charges as well. Normally, defense attorneys want to resolve it all at once. They want to resolve the state level charges and the federal level charges. Remember, just last year, that was a possibility for Derek Chauvin, but it was shut down. We understand by then Attorney General William Barr, because it included the federal charges.

So, we are all waiting to see whether it will resolve for a trial. But as of right now, they got the August trial and now the federal trial.

[23:25:02]

COATES: And by the way, that also includes Derek Chauvin. In spite of his state conviction, the feds can still come in and try him separately.

LEMON: Laura, I'm sure you remember. Well, you've had so many conversations about this. But I remember talking to you about we knew so much about George Floyd's past, right, which came up in the trial. But we did not know that much about Chauvin. And now, he is facing this facing this federal indictment stemming from an incident in 2017 with a 14-year-old.

I mean, he is alleged to have held the teen by the throat, hit him multiple times in the head with a flashlight, put his knee on the teen's neck and even after the boy was handcuffed in a prone position. How -- how will that process unfold?

COATES: Well, the question for many is, how did the jury not hear this before?

LEMON: Yeah.

COATES: Why was this not transparent before the public? That is because the judge didn't allow it to be. And in many cases, remember, in the Bill Cosby case, when there were discussion about other indents that have been uncharged, whether you could bring them into support, the case that actually was charged.

A judge is always going to look and figure out whether there is analogy here, whether the facts before the jury would be prejudice or be more probative. And the judge said, in that case, that could not come in here.

Now, we are looking forward to see what's going to happen now. There are other incidents that might create a pattern of behavior. This was not a mistake of fact in some way. This was somehow the modus operandi of this particular now former officer.

This talks to about the way in which as society, we have to think about prior bad acts and prior acts of misbehaver and misdeeds by officers as a discussion about what level of transparency is needed for accountability.

In this case, for Derek Chauvin, it did not seem to change the minds or influence against the conviction on three charges. But going forward, what else didn't the jury see? What else didn't the court of public opinion see? And what's before him now?

LEMON: I love talking to you, Laura, but I got to move on and talk about Foxitis. Can you believe that?

(LAUGHTER)

LEMON: Thank you.

(LAUGHTER)

COATES: Happy Friday.

LEMON: These are the times. I would love to see with you that case as a prosecutor and someone says, she has Foxitis. Laura --

COATES: I would say good night.

(LAUGHTER)

LEMON: Have a great weekend. Thank you. Bye.

COATES: OK.

LEMON: So, speaking of, a rioter is claiming Foxitis as the reason that he stormed the Capitol. But what is Fox actually saying about the insurrection now? That's next.

And then ahead, rocket debris the size of a school bus speeding towards Earth and scientists, well, they don't know exactly where it will hit.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[23:30:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: Liz Cheney calling out Trump's big lie of election fraud and warning the GOP against what she calls the dangerous and anti- democratic Trump cult of personality. Strong words that are being ignored by the Fox propaganda network. Instead, it is on their holster turning up the volume on the GOP megaphone, turning Cheney into a pariah. Here is CNN's chief media correspondent Brian Stelter.

(BEGIN VIDEO TAPE)

BRIAN STELTER, CNN CHIEF MEDIA CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Liz Cheney's lonely stand for truth --

UNKNOWN: Refusing to co-sign the big lie --

STELTER (voice-over): Was in many media corners the biggest politics story of the week, but not over here.

LAURA INGRAHAM, FOX NEWS HOST: Losing Liz.

UNKNOWN: Liz Cheney declares a global war on the GOP.

PETE HEGSETH, FOX NEWS HOST: Her time is up. Bye-bye.

STELTER (voice-over): The GOP's TV home, Fox News, tiptoed past the Cheney story, like a patriarch ignoring a family feud. But why exactly?

HEGSETH: Got it. Liz Cheney hates Trump, can't get over it, and is out of step with the GOP.

STELTER (voice-over): As you can see, her serious warnings about Trump's big lie, poisoning democracy, are not puncturing the right- wing bubble.

INGRAHAM: She just can't quit talking about the Capitol riot.

STELTER (voice-over): See, that is the crux of Laura Ingram's complaint.

INGRAHAM: Republicans want to move on, but Cheney refuses to. She's a woman obsessed.

STELTER (voice-over): New revelations about the riot emerged nearly every day.

UNKNOWN: Foxitis.

STELTER (voice-over): Like the attorney who says a riot suspect watched too much Fox News.

(LAUGHTER)

STELTER (voice-over): But when on the pro-Trump network, pointing the blame at Trump gets you shouted down.

JUAN WILLIAMS, FOX NEWS POLITICAL ANALYST: He perpetrated a lie that led to violence. That is what happened.

GREG GUTFELD, FOX NEWS HOST: That is your opinion, Juan. That is your opinion.

STELTER: Here is the thing. I don't have a lot of other clips to show you because Fox has skated right past this story.

(Voice-over): I counted 300 mentions of Cheney on CNN, more than 300 on MSNBC, too, but fewer than 50 on Fox. So, is the GOP in disarray? Well, no, not if Fox is the reality. And Fox is where the Republican agenda is being pursued.

SEN. MITCH MCCONNELL (R-KY): Stopping this new administration.

STELTER (voice-over): That is the Fox programming playbook, and it's already being applied to the 2024 primary season, seriously.

UNKNOWN: What are you about to sign?

STELTER (voice-over): Florida Governor Ron DeSantis giving Fox the exclusive while he signed a controversial election bill.

GOV. RON DESANTIS (R-FL): I'm actually going to sign it right here. It's going take effect.

(APPLAUSE)

DESANTIS: So, a bill is signed.

STELTER (voice-over): A campaign stop for DeSantis, a punchline for late night TV.

SETH MEYERS, NBC HOST: I'm sure it's bipartisan if they're signing it exclusively on Fox News. It's like your spouse saying they have something to tell you, they want to do it live on Maury.

STELTER (voice-over): Well, at least Maury episode only lasts an hour.

[23:35:00]

STELTER (voice-over): This (INAUDIBLE) campaign is on 24/7, and these speakers have as much, if not more power, than the likes of Liz Cheney.

SEAN HANNITY, FOX NEWS HOST: On the left, you're allowed to lie and make crazy, ridiculous, totally insane untrue statements, and you can get a free past (ph).

STELTER: That is pretty rich. Sean Hannity complaining about lies from the left while advancing lies on the right. The GOP agenda as seen on Fox is pretty clear right now. Minimize the riot fallout. Minimize Liz Cheney. Maximize any attack on the Democrats. And maximize culture war stories. All of it, of course, Don, with an eye towards 2024. Don?

(END VIDEO TAPE)

LEMON: Brian Stelter, thank you very much.

Right now, a rocket is hurdling towards the Earth at 18,000 miles an hour. Former commander of the International Space Station tells us what to expect, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[23:40:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: The U.S. Military's latest track now has a Chinese rocket hurdling towards Earth, coming down at Turkmenistan at roughly 7 p.m. Eastern time tomorrow. That is according to CNN's Jim Sciutto. A telescope in Italy is managing to capture the out of control debris earlier today. The roughly school bus-sized chunk of rocket is one of the largest pieces of space junk ever to fall to Earth. Joining me now to discuss is retired NASA astronaut and former commander of the International Space Station, Leroy Chiao. Good evening, sir. Dun-dun-dun. The mystery. I hope you are doing OK. I'm glad you can join us.

It is 22 tons hurdling towards Earth at 18,000 miles an hour. I mean, China was gambling on this landing somewhere at sea. But, now, it appears it is headed for land. Could its trajectory change again?

LEROY CHIAO, RETIRES NASA ASTRONAUT, FORMER COMMANDER OF THE INTERNATIONAL SPACE STATION: It is very difficult to precisely estimate where something like this is going to fall. You know, the aerodynamics are not well understood, especially since the vehicle is tumbling, and so, you know, it is hard to pinpoint exactly where it is going to come down.

But it is not the first time that this kind of thing has happened. Of course, even with (inaudible) launches a large piece of the external tank which survived the entry, but it was planned, and they always fell in the Indian Ocean, away from shipping waves (ph).

LEMON: Wow! So, the Pentagon is monitoring the rocket. Can anything be done if it has headed toward a population center? Can it be shut down or something like -- anything can be done?

CHIAO: Well, I mean, in principle, you could try to take a shot at it, but you risk making the problem worse. You may not get off the force and actually guided towards, or pieces of it, towards inhabited areas, whereas if you had done nothing, it probably would have not hit anything at all.

The fact is that the chance that it comes down in a populated area is pretty small. It is not zero, but it is pretty small and most likely, it would impact somewhere in the ocean or an uninhabited area, some desert area, like that.

LEMON: So the Chinese say most of the rocket is going to burn up on re-entry. But there is still going be debris making impact, right? How bad could this be, sir?

CHIAO: Yes, that's right. So, like we said, pieces of the rocket will survive entry. You know, this is not impressive, of course. We have sky lab come down in the desert area of Australia fortunately not hurting anyone. We saw space station near come down not too many years ago, splashed down in the ocean. The Soviet some years ago had a spy satellite. Pieces of that survived entry and scattered some radioactive debris over Northern Canada, fortunately not in inhabited area.

So, it is not without precedent. Unfortunately, it is one of those things that difficult to predict and even when you do have a good idea of where it is going to land, it is probably only minutes away.

LEMON: You were commander of the International Space Station. There are more than 9,000 tons of junk orbiting the Earth right now, the equivalent of 720 school buses. How dangerous is that for the space station or even the satellite that we've all come to rely on?

CHIAO: Well, orbital debris is the biggest thing that we worry about (INAUDIBLE) satellites and other vehicles that travel up and down. So, all vehicles in the space have shielding on them. But, of course, if a big enough piece hits you, you know, no shielding is going to help.

So, we would take hits regularly, even on space shuttle missions. We come back from each mission having little basically grains of sand kind of make a little impact in the windows, in the tiles, in the International Space Station. Sometimes, you can hear a little noise. You're not sure if that was from a creek, from thermal difference, temperature differences or that was some kind of an impact. But, fortunately, we haven't had any big issue so far.

LEMON: My goodness. Thank you, Leroy Chiao. I appreciate it.

CHIAO: My pleasure. Thank you.

LEMON: We are going to be right back with some of my interview with Stevie Wonder. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[23:45:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: I want to make sure that you know about my new special coming up. Fifty years after Marvin Gaye's groundbreaking album, "What's Going On," was released, why has it become an anthem for a new generation? A CNN special, "What's Going On: Marvin Gaye's Anthem for the Ages," premieres Sunday at 8:00 p.m. Have a watch party.

[23:50:00]

LEMON: There is a lot of good stuff in the doc, but one special thing is, I got to --- oh, my, gosh, I can't believe we're playing this. I got to sit down with Stevie Wonder. Here is a preview.

(BEGIN VIDEO TAPE)

LEMON: As it relates to Marvin then, as you got to know him, what did you admire? Because, you know, artists, as they say, borrow from each other, learn from each other. As you got to know him, what did you admire about him as an artist, as an musician?

STEVIE WONDER, SINGER, SONGWRITER: I loved that he was not just a great musician, but as well he was well read.

LEMON: Hmm.

WONDER: I like that. I like that he loved history. I like that he liked Black history, American history. I like that he -- he and Smokey would have, like, deep discussions. They will be all the way in there, listening. You know?

LEMON: Well, that's what I want to ask you about. Because you had -- you had -- you shared the same views on things.

WONDER: Mm-hmm.

LEMON: On societal issues, on the turmoil that was going on in society. What were those conversations like?

WONDER: It's not so much that we had conversations about them when I was that little or young. But I was listening. And I would shake my head, you know, in an agreement or if I had something to ask, I would ask.

But obviously, I had known about Dr. Martin Luther King since I was, like, what, seven or eight years old. So, when they would talk about him and what he was doing, what I would hear on the radio or witness them showing on television, and then they would have discussions, I was all the way wanting to hear it.

And so as much as it may have been surprise to people that he would do this album, I wasn't shocked, but I was so incredibly impressed by the fact that he took it to a whole another level that it had never been taken before. I like that.

And obviously, from, I guess, his brother's experience being in Vietnam in all that, that he created something that will last many lifetimes, many generations.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: I thought we were going to play the one where I was actually singing with Stevie Wonder. I'm glad we didn't play that one, but I'm glad I got to experience it. So, there is a lot more where that came from, so make sure you watch Sunday at 8:00.

And right after, be sure to tune into this. There is a brand new CNN Original Series, "The Story of Late Night." That's Sunday night at 9:00. An all-new episode of "United Shades of America" with Kamau Bell at 10:00. What a lineup, only on CNN. We'll be right back.

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[23:55:00]

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LEMON: When 22-year-old Amanda Gorman recited her inaugural poem at the Biden-Harris inauguration, the world took note. Also, watching was a proud CNN hero, who first met Amanda as a young girl of 14. Karen Taylor's organization, WriteGirl, offers thousands of teen support, guidance, and the tools to have their voices be heard.

(BEGIN VIDEO TAPE)

KAREN TAYLOR, CNN HERO: Many of our girls come from environments where they are really struggling with unstable family situations, violence in their communities. Our goal is to really try and reach the most teens we can that are in the greatest need.

UNKNOWN: Nice.

TAYLOR: Since receiving the hero award, we've expand to include programs for boys and co-ed groups, to clarify our definition of girls by including non-binary girls, trans-youth, developed more programming for youth who are incarcerated or systems impacted on probation. We are always encouraging our girls to share their own story. What is going on in their world? Because, they are the only one that can write that poem, tell that story, write that song.

AMANDA GORMAN, AMERICAN POET: And the time where a skinny, Black girl descended from slaves and raised by a single mother.

TAYLOR: Amanda Gorman joined WriteGirl when she was 14.

GORMAN: (INAUDIBLE).

TAYLOR: When we saw her perform at the inauguration, we could see the same things that we really embody at WriteGirl represented in her: confidence, being willing to really be present.

What was really exciting to know was that she represents not only every girl that's ever been in WriteGirl, but she also represents every young woman in this country.

(END VIDEO TAPE)

LEMON: To learn more about Karen Taylor and how her work helps young people like Amanda Gorman blaze all sorts of trails, and to nominate someone you think should be a CNN hero, go to cnnheroes.com right now.

Thank you for watching, everyone. Our coverage continues.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening. Welcome to a very weird night. John Berman here, in for Anderson.