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Don Lemon Tonight

Republican Party Pushing Trump's Big Lie; House Republicans Set To Vote Likely Wednesday To Oust Liz Cheney From GOP Leadership Position; Political Infighting Doesn't Attract Voters?; President Biden Meeting With GOP House And Senate; States Celebrating Confederate Memorial Day; Rioter Points Finger To Fox And Trump; Horse Trainer Blames Cancel Culture. Aired 10-11p ET

Aired May 10, 2021 - 22:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[22:00:00]

CHRIS CUOMO, CNN HOST: And we need so much more of that right now. I have my mom.

And I want to bring in the big shot from "CNN TONIGHT," D. Lemon, because my wife absolutely likes him more than she likes me. But here is Cristina. She got a Tesla. She runs this wellness company called the Purist so she's in all that.

DON LEMON, CNN HOST: That's her dog.

CUOMO: So, we all run to a car.

LEMON: That's her dog.

CUOMO: It was the first time she got the whole family in the car in years, and put that other one. This is what a mother she is. This is this dog she rescued that is one of the most vicious animals I've ever been around. And she literally diaper the dog when she was going through --

LEMON: Yes.

CUOMO: -- her cycle.

LEMON: The first time.

CUOMO: And that's who she is. She is love in action. She diapers all of us, one way, or another.

LEMON: I've witnessed that personally.

CUOMO: And it's powerful instruction, and thank you, brother, for coming with Tim giving us the plant. Mom love seeing you, Cristina loves you.

LEMON: It was great. I just want to show up for a minute, I did not want to bust in on your family thing.

CUOMO: You're a family. LEMON: Because it's family time. I know.

CUOMO: But you're still wearing that mask and treating like I'm going to give you the police.

LEMON: No, no, no. Here's let me tell you. And I do want to talk about that. Because I don't know how other people feel about it, so do it out of respect.

CUOMO: I know.

LEMON: And if everyone says, you know, I saw you and Cristina's sister and she said, you know, I'm vaccinated and I said, I'm fully vaccinated, and we were all outside in front of the house, so I took the mask off. I just do it because, listen, your mom or Cristina's mom, or someone, they may have an underlying condition, they may not have gotten vaccinated yet, and I don't want -- I am a southern gentleman.

CUOMO: You're absolutely right.

LEMON: And I do it out of respect --

CUOMO: You do.

LEMON: -- until someone tells me otherwise. And but, I'm kind of jealous you've got to spend it with your mom. Because I would love to spend it with my mom, but my mom won't leave. She won't -- I keep saying mom, --

CUOMO: She has to fly, though.

LEMON: Yes. But she won't get on a plane, that she can wear a mask.

(CROSSTALK)

CUOMO: I get why she speak.

LEMON: I said, mom, I'll send a car for you, I'll send one of those sprinters, I'll send, she won't do it. She won't -- she hasn't been, I'm going to be honest, she's going to be mad at me, she chipped her tooth during the pandemic, and she won't go to the dentist. I said, mom, you can go to the dentist, it's safe. Sanjay is going to do a house call on her. Because this is real, people are having trouble reemerging into society. I have friends who are --

(CROSSTALK)

CUOMO: It's scary, especially for people in their age bracket.

LEMON: Yes. But she is fully vaccinated, Chris.

CUOMO: I know.

LEMON: And if you are going to say, during the entire pandemic, and I'm talking to you, mom, and I'm talking to you my other friend, I won't say your name, because you'll get mad at me. If you are going to say, I believe in the science and the scientists, then now on this side of the pandemic, then you must believe in the science and scientists as well.

CUOMO: I agree.

LEMON: We are saying to you, if you are fully vaccinated, you don't have to wear a mask outside. If you want to travel, you can, wear a mask, follow the protocols, but it is 99.99, whatever percent, chances that you won't get the COVID, you won't get COVID, then you should trust in that science as well. And get back to it.

My mom is a woman of a certain age. I don't know how much time any of us has. I could walk out here and get hit by a bus. I want to live my life. I want to see my loved ones. So, can we get back to some semblance of normalcy and we cannot be afraid to go back into normal society. It defies reality.

(CROSSTALK)

CUOMO: I'm with you, but I will -- let me argue one point for your mom.

LEMON: It defies the logic.

CUOMO: I'll argue one point for your mom, OK?

LEMON: Yes.

CUOMO: And I'll put a bit of stink on this, but I put more on Sanjay and then more on the government. This messaging about the vaccine has not been good enough. They still make you feel like it's not like every other vaccine that you've ever had in your life. Where, you may still get it, you should still wear a mask, you can still have enough to be contagious, you can still spread it.

You know, I get why people like your mom and my mom --

LEMON: Yes.

CUOMO: -- did not feel the confidence that we were supposed to have in getting this vaccine.

LEMON: Messaging.

CUOMO: And I still don't think they are allowing these numbers and the science to rule and they are giving people vaccines even more latitude.

LEMON: Yes.

CUOMO: Especially now that you have people who don't want to get it.

LEMON: Ye. Look, I do have to say, there's so much I wanted to talk to you about. But you've got to believe in the science, you've got to believe in facts, and you've got to believe in reality. CUOMO: I do. I'm with you.

LEMON: And that goes for that interview. I got to run, so we can't really belabor this, that interview you did about two interviews ago. Do I believe the young man? Not really. I think it's a defense, this whole Foxitis thing.

CUOMO: It is a defense.

LEMON: But I think it's just a defense, and I don't think you can use Jesus as an ATM, or God as an ATM, and you can't keep saying, well, Jesus made me do it, God made me do it, so therefore it's OK. If you want forgiveness, forgive yourself. And I --

(CROSSTALK)

CUOMO: I just feel there are a lot like him who got stuck in that cycle.

LEMON: Here's -- I do. There are a lot like him, but they are adults, and they need to face consequences. Right?

[22:05:04]

CUOMO: Agree.

LEMON: You got to face the consequences.

CUOMO: A hundred percent.

LEMON: And let me just say this. But I do believe in this day in age that people are creating their own realities, and in some ways, they are believing it, and that is in large part because of the Trump and the Trumpists, that they believe lies. You got people like Nunes suing cows. Like all kinds of weird strange realities that people have and they believe it, they do believe it. They think it's real when it's 100 percent not real.

So, I think that's something that we are going to have to talk about. We are going to have to dig into, psychology, psychiatrists are going to have to dig into it because people, if Donald Trump tells them one plus one equals seven, they will believe that. And it is not true of their politics and their ideology tells them one plus one equals 10, they will believe that. And it is not true.

So we have to get back to a fact-based reality, not a post-truth based reality which is what we have right now. We are living in a post-truth America, in a post-truth world and I don't know how we get out of that except you and I can every night continue to practice speaking the truth and responsibility.

CUOMO: Amen. I love you, D. Lemon.

LEMON: I love you, sir. I'll see you later. Good night.

This is CNN TONIGHT. I'm Don Lemon. And I have got a question for you. What does the Republican Party stand for? This is what we were talking about. Do they believe in reality or are they trying to shape the reality around them? Or trying to get you to shape your reality to fit what they think reality is? What do they stand for? Do they stand for insurrection? What do they stand for?

And if you are a member of that party and you believe in that, then what do you stand for is what you should be asking yourself. Because ultimately, it is your responsibility.

Once you might have said that the Republican Party stands for low taxes, strong on defense, right? Maybe anti-abortion. Or maybe you would have said, quote, "Christian values," unquote. See where I'm going with this? Think about that.

Well, now the Republican Party stands for one thing and one thing only. And that is allegiance to the cult of personality. To the cult of Trump. Is that God like? Is that what the bible teaches you? What about not worshiping false gods? Putting no other before me? Huh.

I know. The truth hurt sometimes. Tonight, the GOP piling lies on top of lies on top of lies in service of that cult. C-u-l-t, cult, I said it.

The House Minority Leader Kevin McCarthy telling members to expect a vote on Wednesday, a vote to throw Liz Cheney under the bus for refusing to promote the big lie of bogus election denial. He doesn't mention her name in his letter to members, but he does go on to write this, and I'm quoting here. "We are a big tent party. We represent Americans of all backgrounds and continue to grow our movement by the day. And unlike the left, we embrace free thought and debate."

Really? "All members are elected to represent their constituents as they see fit."

So, let's talk about that statement. A big tent party, right? A big tent full of lies? Full of big lies? They embrace free thought and debate? So, I guess Liz Cheney's free thought, debate don't matter? Tell that to Liz Cheney. Members are elected to represent their constituents. As they see fit? I guess, as long as they see fit to support the disgraced, twice impeached, one-term insurrection inspiring former president who is tightening his iron grip on the party.

Every time you think the hypocrisy can't get any worse, it just does. It's just hypocritical. Self-examination Republicans. And the handful of Republicans who are trying to save their party from itself are getting ousted by those who have sold the soul of the GOP. Or, maybe sold their own souls. Adam Kinzinger comparing his party to the Titanic.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. ADAM KINZINGER (R-IL): Right now, it's basically the Titanic. We're like, you know, in the middle of this slow sink. We have a band playing on the deck and telling everybody it's fine, and meanwhile, as I've said, you know, Donald Trump is running around trying to find women's clothing to get on the first lifeboat.

I think there's a few of us that are saying, guys, this is not good. Not just for the future of the party, but this is not good for the future of this country.

[22:10:02]

LEMON (on camera): Mitt Romney is tweeting. Expelling Liz Cheney from leadership won't the GOP one additional voter but it will cost us quite a few. Bill Cassidy tonight saying this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. BILL CASSIDY (R-LA): It will be perceived by the American people as she is being ousted for disagreeing with the president. We need all Republicans on board and if people feel as if they are not heard, that doesn't work. There are a whole lot of Republicans who agree with her. There are a lot who disagree with her. Both need to be heard, and I think it's going to create the perception that those who support Liz Cheney are not being heard.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON (on camera): Both sides there, they're having a both sides problem, too, right, in the GOP -- within the GOP both sides. They're giving equal value to both sides. Giving equal value to the people who are standing up for principle like Liz Cheney into insurrectionists, Jewish space lasers that's they're giving equal value to that.

Maryland's Republican Governor Larry Hogan saying this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GOV. LARRY HOGAN (R-MD): It just bothers me that you have to swear fealty to the dear leader, or you get kicked out of the party.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON (on camera): And then there is Lindsey Graham. Would you have been surprised? Would you be surprised to hear that he is defending the former president, and throwing Liz Cheney under the bus? I don't think so.

Asked tonight if there is room in the GOP for anyone who is against Trump, he says this. Sure. You just will be a leader of the party -- you are not going to be a leader of the party if you are anti-Trump.

The GOP's idea of moving forward is purging anybody who speaks out against the big lie and the big liar. But at the same time deliberately keeping Republicans in the dark on just how unpopular the former president actually is. It turns out that Trump's unfavorable ratings are 15 points higher than his favorable ones in core battleground districts. But the campaign officials, charged with helping Republicans win in 2022? Well, they left out that bad Trump polling news at the House GOP

retreat in April. That is according to the Washington Post. Purposely leaving our polling that makes Trump look bad.

It's nothing but a twisted echo chamber. They aren't allowing any facts that don't fit their narrative then. That's why they have decided, Liz Cheney has got to go. Presumably to be replaced by Trump defender, Elise Stefanik.

And this is interesting. She hasn't always been on team Trump. Right? But she still went full MAGA around the time of his first impeachment. Our pal Philip Bump at the Washington Post found over the months Stefanik was in office before November 2019, she raised an average of about $140, 000, that's according to the FEC.

From November 2019 on, she has been averaging more than $575,000. That's more than four times as much, in case anybody was wondering what her conversion to team Trump might be about. That's what it's about.

It's all -- it's all a grift. And it's all about exploiting their voters. Their supporters. That's how you end up with an insurrection on Capitol Hill. With people who get co-opted into that insurrection are facing the consequences but the party leaders are not, and neither is Trump.

How do you feel about that? So, who do you blame it on? Everyone else but yourself, even Jesus.

The Republican Party is now all about the big lie and conspiracy theories like Senator Ron Johnson who seems never to have met a conspiracy theory that he didn't like. Now he is falsely suggesting that thousands of deaths are connected to COVID-19 vaccinations, falsely.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. RON JOHNSON (R-WI): According to the VAERS system, we're over 3,000 deaths after within 30 days of taking the vaccine.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON (on camera): Falsely, he is so wrong. He is wrong. His suggestion that 3,000 deaths are somehow tied to vaccines is 100 percent false. He is talking about the vaccine adverse event reporting system. Which is designed to determine if a vaccine caused a health problem. Excuse me, a vaccine -- excuse me, say that again? If a vaccine is not designed -- I must have left off the word not my producer is talking to me.

A vaccine is not designed to determine if the vaccine or system is not designed to determine is a vaccine cause a health problem. I want to make sure we get that straight. Facts first here. It's for the CDC, the system is for the CDC and the FDA to monitor and do follow-up investigations. And the CDC has found no causal link between the vaccines and these deaths. No links. [22:15:02]

And while the Republican Party is putting on its three-ring circus of crazy, guess what the current legitimately elected president is doing? Joe Biden. He is doing his job. The job that he was elected to do. He is pushing forward in spite of the chaos and the lies. He is making progress on vaccines as the FDA authorize Pfizer's vaccine for kids ages 12 to 15. They did that just today.

Progress on policing reform and infrastructure, progress. He's delivering a tough message on jobs and unemployment benefits.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: We are going to make it clear that anyone collecting unemployment was offered a suitable job, must take the job or lose their unemployment benefits. There are a few COVID-19 related exceptions, so that people aren't forced to choose between their basic safety and a paycheck. But otherwise, that's the law.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON (on camera): The president is doing the job he was elected to do, while Republicans are lying to the people who elected them and purging anyone who tries to stand up for the truth. As I said, creating their own reality.

We're living in a post-truth post reality world right now. What do we do about it? And then that post-truth, post-reality world you can continue to blame, I'm talking about the voters there who are falling for this, who believe this. I'm not judging you. I'm just telling you the truth, you are an adult. You can't blame others for participating in an insurrection, you did it.

So, what is that, should you continue to watch the news organizations you're watching? Should you continue to believe in a person who in your defense that's why you say send you to the capitol to do the wrong thing? To vote against your own interests?

That's only something that you can answer, and you can't blame a news organization you can do it if you want, or the bible, or Jesus, or God. You did it. You had free will, so what are you going to do now in this moment? Are you going to correct, or are you going to lean in to the lies continually? You can continue to lean into the lies. That's only something that you can answer, perhaps that's something you should pray on.

This whole GOP cult to personality is they are trouble ahead for Republicans, it's trouble ahead for Republicans if they stick with Trump no matter what.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KINZINGER: Listen to those of us that predicted what's going to happen on the 6th, it's what we're predicting is going to happen right now if we continue to lie to our voters, it's the complete and utter destruction of the Republican Party.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[22:20:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON (on camera): So, House Republican are set to vote this week likely on Wednesday to oust Liz Cheney from her leadership position in the GOP, punishment for standing up to Trump and calling out his big lie of election fraud. Some Republicans like Mitt Romney warning that ousting Liz Cheney will likely drive people away from the Republican Party.

So, let's discuss this. I want to discuss the numbers what this means for the party and what the polling shows. The pollster and communications strategist Frank Luntz is here. Frank, good to see you. Thank you so much.

Walk us through this and try to help us understand what this means for the GOP. They're on the cusp of purging Liz Cheney from leadership standing for the truth. By the way, thank you for joining us. I appreciate it. You know, Liz Cheney is as conservative as they get, what do you think about this move? Does it shore up the base at the expense of winning future elections or what does it do?

FRANK LUNTZ, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST AND POLLSTER: Well, the whole -- and I've studied, I've researched it, and I'm about to make at least half of your audience unhappy that the Republicans need Donald Trump to win in 2022. And the Republicans can't win with him in 2022, it's this catch 2022 situation, I just realized how appropriate is 22 with catch 22.

They need to expand; they were close in 2020. They ran ahead of him in so many districts. And in the end, if you turn against them, if he starts complaining about McCarthy or as he's been doing. complaining about McConnell, it hurts the GOP. There are millions of people who will follow him as you've said, and there are millions of people who won't vote Republican is he is seen as the standard bearer. So, you're damned if you do, and you're dammed if you don't. That's what the polling shows us right now.

LEMON: I don't think the audience -- I have to do disagree with you. I don't think the audience is disappointed. I think they know that's the reality. I think they know that Donald Trump is very important to the party. Look, it shows that the vast majority, correct me if I'm wrong, of Republicans are supportive of Donald Trump at least now. And you know, so I think they -- they've, I think they would agree with you that the Republican Party is damned if they do, damned if they don't, I think your assessment is right on.

Listen, I've reported something to it at the beginning of the show about the Washington Post. Saying that the National Republic Congressional Committee at that retreat, that staff left out a key finding in their polling, that Trump's unfavorable ratings were 15 points higher than his favorable ones in core districts. Now, if he's a drag on the party, why would they hire him? And again, that's the Washington Post's reporting, that's not CNN's reporting. Is that reporting correct? And if he's a drag on the party, why would they hide -- why would they hide it?

LUNTZ: Well, Donald Trump is extremely popular among Republicans. Extremely popular. And his unfavourability among Republicans is miniscule. The issue is among independents, swing voters, floating voters where Trump's favorability has fallen even since the election because of the things that he said, the things he has done since then.

And so, in a base election where the turnout is low and you're trying to turn your supporters. I understand why the GOP is trying to make itself close to the ex-president.

[22:25:03]

In a high turnout election that's absolutely damaging. Because you don't win without winning swing voters. I know tis from the 1994 election when Republicans won by winning two to one, the Ross Perot votes. I know it from 2010 when the GOP once again got the majority by winning those votes in the center.

And frankly, I think it needs to do both. And it's very hard, if not impossible to do it under the current circumstances. And the issue for the GOP is that it's spending more time right now attacking each other than it is challenging the spending proposals and the tax proposals, and the infrastructure proposals that are happening from Joe Biden.

If this is how the campaign continues, if this is an internal war, the GOP will not get the majority. And maybe they wouldn't deserve it because in the end you have to present an alternative, a legitimate governing alternative to what exist right now.

LEMON: Frank, again, I think your assessment is right on. I say that every single night where is the policy? Republicans should be if they want, I think they should be talking about policy rather than, you know, these silly culture wars or, you know, making up things about, you know, Dr. Seuss and what have you.

But look, that's neither here nor there. Let's talk about the independents that you said, the swing voters, the floaters, right? Because are Republicans doing anything to win back those -- a lot of that is suburban women. Right? Especially what they are seeing happening to Liz Cheney, are they doing anything to win those voters back?

LUNTZ: The number one thing they could do, is to be focused on the waste, fraud, abuse, and even corruption that is part of what is being spent as COVID relief or infrastructure. There's so much money that's going out without the necessary accountability. That would be a far more effective approach than killing each other internally.

Second, these are hardworking taxpayers are nervous and they've got a right to be about who's going to pay for all this. We've never seen this much spending. Look, Donald Trump was not a particular deficit hawk. That there are those in the Republican Party thought that he spent too much money.

Well, you look at Obama, you look at Trump where Joe Biden spending is more than the two of them. And he's doing it in a very short amount of time. That would be a much better campaign pivot than focusing on whether Liz Cheney is Trump enough. Or whether Elise Stefanik is qualified enough. And the Republican Party at some point has to realize that the spending issue itself can't take them to the majority as it did in 1994 as it did in 2010.

But I promise you, is yelling and screaming at each other this internal partisanship, this ugliness, the people in the center want solutions. They want results. They want people to focus on what they're for not just what they're against. And they're not hearing it from the GOP right now.

LEMON: Do you think that they are going to -- you've been doing this for a long time, do you see time for correction and can they do it?

LUNTZ: I've been doing this for much too long, I can't believe I'm not the oldest person in the room. Don, I am -- I'm twice as old as some of the advisers to the GOP advisers right now. And the direction that they're heading in is not the direction that they need to go. Do have time? Absolutely. Do they have the intention of doing it? I don't think so or at least not right now.

And I'll tell you, they've never had a better opportunity to focus on where the money is going, because it's a lot and we don't know where it is going.

LEMON: Well, Frank Luntz, thank you. I enjoyed it.

LUNTZ: Thank you, Don.

LEMON: I appreciate it. President Biden not abandoning his message of bipartisanship but, what does that even mean these days? If anyone can help me sort that out it is Governor John Kasich. John, you heard that conversation, it's what I say every night!

JOHN KASICH, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yes.

LEMON: Maybe we say it differently, but let's talk about it after the break.

[22:30:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON (on camera): So, President Biden believes in bipartisanship. On Wednesday, he is meeting at the White House with leaders of both parties in the House and the Senate, and then on Thursday he is hosting a group of Republican senators to talk about infrastructure.

Let's discuss now, CNN senior commentator John Kasich, the former Republican governor of Ohio joins me. John, thank you so much.

I'm so -- I'm so glad that you can join us tonight to talk about all of these issues. I know you heard my conversation with Frank Luntz, and I think that you will agree that the internal war is tearing the GOP apart. It's what I say every single night. And here is a pollster, a Republican -- a Republican leaning pollster saying the exact same thing, maybe using different language. But basically, saying the same thing that I say on the show every night, and that you have been saying.

KASICH: Yes. I mean, you have to, Don, you have to have an alternative. You just can't be there bashing somebody else and not having any kind of a program or plan at all. You need really modernized conservative solutions, is what you need. Modernized, 21st century answers to these problems.

And this fighting internally is just crazy. Now I got to tell you where I would disagree with Frank. Don, I think it looks pretty good for the Republicans to take back the House. And the reason, it's historic. Secondly, they control the maps and, you know, they're likely to win.

But the problem with that is that then what are we going to do? Then what happens? But I think Frank is absolutely right, I've been saying this for a long time, the $6 trillion in spending is astronomical. The high taxes, and we just saw the jobs report wasn't good. We have to see what happens.

LEMON: All right.

KASICH: We have to see what happens.

LEMON: let me talk --

(CROSSTALK)

KASICH: I'm glad they're talking, though, the Republicans and the Democrats.

LEMON: Yes. It's good to finally invite people over to the White House to meetings to try -- so let's hope that works out, fingers crossed. I want to ask you about something that we heard a little bit ago, on Chris' show from the accused capitol rioters blaming Foxitis for his actions. Here it is.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

[22:35:06]

ANTHONY ANTONIO, ACCUSED CAPITOL RIOTER: When I was 18 years old, I was saved by Jesus Christ. I dedicated my life to the world. And last year I honestly put a man above Jesus Christ as my lord and savior. I believed the man, I believed whatever was being told to me. He was the president of our United States, and I believed him. Because he's the president of our United States.

And so because of that, I went to Washington like he called us to. Having no clue what to expect, having no clue what was about to happen. I just knew that the president of our United States told me to go there.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON (on camera): All right, so it's pretty stunning to hear but, this is -- is this what happened to so many people out there? I don't know, blaming Jesus and all, I mean, but what do you think?

KASICH: I watched the interview, I actually did and you know, I don't know what to really think about. The guy has got what, five felony charges against him and there were some pictures there that were bad, but let the guy have his day in court.

Don, I read a very interesting article today in the New York Times about why people get together even on crazy conspiracy theories. I would really highly commend it to you. Basically, it says when people feel threatened and people feel alone, they want to glob onto another group.

It's a really interesting thing to think about, even at times when they know that the facts are wrong, that they will actually be willing to forward information to other people, not all of them but many of them even when they know the information is incorrect.

There is this sense of, this sense of wanting to be part of a group. But Don, we heard a lot out of that young man about the power of Jesus, OK? The power of faith means we are not all above. That's why this has to be, and I know you agree with us, I know your mama agrees with this. We need to -- we need explain exactly what faith is all about, not just Christian faith, Jewish faith, across the faith community so that people don't feel like they're all alone and then they have to resort to crazy things to try to be part of a group.

LEMON: Yes.

KASICH: That is why it's so important to reinvigorate religion, real religion not the phony stuff we see sometimes, but the loving God and loving thy neighbor.

LEMON: OK. here's -- let me just say this, though.

KASICH: You can get someone there.

LEMON: Let me just say this.

KASICH: Sir.

LEMON: I'm not going to have an argument about you with religion about you, that's why I think we need to leave religion out of politics --

KASICH: Yes.

LEMON: -- and leave religion out of government. And that's why we have the separation of church and state.

KASICH: Sure. LEMON: Because and I said he is blaming, he didn't blame Jesus, he just said, think he was using Jesus as a shield and he's like, you know, look, fine. Ultimately, people are responsible for their own behaviors. He's an adult.

KASICH: Of course.

LEMON: Those people who showed up at the capitol they are adults and they're responsible for their own behavior. And he is -- he is in fact blaming the media, because he says it's the media and specifically Fox.

There is other media, you're on -- you're on CNN almost every day saying the exact opposite of what the people who went to the capitol believe. And what they heard on Fox, and what they heard on other networks, that there was no widespread voter fraud, that the election was not stolen.

So, blaming them, I know why he blamed the media, he should blame one, he should talk about the media that he watches and then blame himself for actually believing the media that he watched. And that he has a responsibility to be able to what, sift through information and figure what's right and what's wrong as a responsible adult. That's all. I don't -- I don't believe brining a God into this and Jesus into this is helpful, I think it's the exact opposite. It's is the reason we get here.

KASICH: Yes. Don, my only point is I totally believe in separation of church and state. All I'm trying to say is when religion is on the wane, and people feel as though they've got nothing, sometimes they will turn to other people with the craziest of ideas in order to be part of a group. And so, --

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: But that's not religion -- that's not religion. That's not religion, John, because Christianity is not the only religion in this country.

KASICH: No, I said it's across --

LEMON: Jesus is not the only -- yes, but that's not a -- but there are people who are religious people, who are of other faiths who did not show up at the capitol --

KASICH: Yes.

LEMON: -- and use it in the name of their --

KASICH: No, no. Yes, you are misunderstanding me.

LEMON: OK.

KASICH: I'm saying across the board with all faith, we need a rise in faith in America, so people can feel separate from government, separate from any of this political stuff that they believe in something that's greater than themselves. And that they don't have to run somewhere to be with a group that could do crazy things like run to the capitol, so this is not about one religion. I'm just saying, our history --

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: I get you, John. I just don't see where it has anything to do with religion, we need a rise in the truth. We don't need a rise in religion for people to be --

(CROSSTALK)

KASICH: yes, I agree with that. yes.

LEMON: -- pitting religious and religions against the government and religions against other religions and people and using religions to persecute people.

[22:40:02]

KASICH: Yes, I'm not --

LEMON: We don't need that. We need a rise in the truth.

KASICH: No, I completely agree with you, and what I'm saying though, Don, and this is not about religion, this is the article in the New York Times today. It's a psychological study that sometimes people when they feel lonely and they feel under attack, and they feel in trouble, they will associate with people who they would normally not associate with because they want to be part of a group.

It's sort of this what we are as human beings, it's this nature that we want to be with other people. And look, I watched the interview, I watched -- and I agree with what you said, Chris said the same thing about personal responsibility, and I agree with that.

And I thought it was very, very interesting that Chris even got to do that interview, and I think you agree with that.

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: I do agree with that.

KASICH: It's really interesting.

LEMON: Look, I do agree with that. I appreciate the conversation. I don't see what faith or religion has to do with it, but you do.

KASICH: I got you.

LEMON: I respect that, we'll continue to talk for --

(CROSSTALK)

KASICH: For another day. For another day. We can agree all the time.

LEMON: A rise in the truth. A rise in the truth. Thank you, sir. I'll see you later.

South Carolina closing government offices today to observe a holiday, but it's not any ordinary holiday. They are commemorating Confederate Memorial Day.

[22:45:00]

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LEMON (on camera): South Carolina celebrating Confederate Memorial Day today. That's right, a day to honor the losers of the Civil War on the state's official holiday calendar with other holidays like Veterans Day and Presidents' Day.

You may remember when South Carolina remove the confederate flag from the capital following the massacre of nine Black parishioners at the Mother Emmanuel AME Church in Charleston. Well, the flag clearly not the last official recognition of the confederacy in the state.

Joining me now is John Stauffer who is a professor of African and African- American studies at Harvard University. Professor, thank you. I appreciate you doing us. How are you doing?

JOHN STAUFFER, PROFESSOR OF AFRICAN AND AFRICAN- AMERICAN STUDIES, HARVARD UNIVERSITY: Good. Good. How are you?

LEMON: I'm doing well. Let's have a little history refresher here. South Carolina not the only state to celebrate Confederate Memorial Day. Just last month, state officials closed in Alabama -- state offices, I should say closed in Alabama, in Mississippi for their own Confederate Memorial Day. What is actually, what is this commemorating here?

STAUFFER: What they are commemorating is the confederacy which even northern referred to as the rebels, because they were men who took up arms against the United States government. Lincoln, and virtually every other northerner are called at the war the rebellion. They didn't refer to it as confederacy. And the reason for secession was solely to protect and expand slavery. To try to create a slave empire.

Alexander Stephens, the vice president after the confederacy was founded, it was very clear. He said that the great truth, the foundations of this new government is based upon the great truth that the Negros is not equal to the white man. The slavery subordination to the superior is his natural normal condition. Everyone acknowledged that.

When Jefferson Davis walked out of the Senate, he walked out saying that I am walking out to protect slavery and expand slavery. There is no question. And the only, there's two reasons why one kid celebrate Confederate Memorial Day. One, is to rewrite the past and say that it really wasn't about slavery. Or to -- or to believe, to continue to believe that as the rebels did, that slavery was a positive good.

LEMON: Well, you said everything in the last couple of sentences you said, because that is indeed the truth. When the confederate flag was taken down, professor, from the capitol in 2015, it seemed like such a historic moment.

STAUFFER: Yes.

LEMON: But here we are talking about a holiday in the same state honoring losers and traitors. Why take the flag down but then maintain an official government holiday?

STAUFFER: I think it's a gesture towards the large number of white South Carolinians and other white southerners who continue to deny that the Civil War had much to do with slavery. To continue to deny that they seceded, they committed an act of treason to protect and expand slavery. And it wasn't just in 1861 when the confederacy was founded, it was throughout the 1850s southerners were trying to expand to acquire new territories.

It was why the Mexican War was waged, to acquire territories for slavery. And in one sense, southerners were the true conservatives. They were trying to conserve an institution that was being eliminated throughout western culture, throughout North and Central and South America.

So, by 1850, the United States south was the largest slave nation in the world. More slaves in the U.S. south than anywhere else in the world. England, France, almost all of Europe had abolished slavery.

LEMON: How much of this, professor, is our own fault for not teaching the true history of this country? For whitewashing history even in our schools? How much is that --

(CROSSTALK)

STAUFFER: A lot. A huge amount is the fault of -- I mean, it's from educators all the way up to presidents. I men, there's a long history of presidents denying that slavery was at the root of the Civil War. So, there is a long history, that has only been in the past 10 years or so that most curriculums acknowledge that slavery is central to the Civil War.

[22:50:09]

And remain central. Slavery and the racism that goes along with slavery is a foundation of the United States. It's racism and slavery have marinated the country from the beginning.

LEMON: Much longer conversation to be had about that, and we'll have you back. Thank you, professor. Be well. We appreciate you for appearing.

STAUFFER: Sure.

LEMON: Thank you. So, the Kentucky Derby winner failing a post-race drug test and the trainer, Bob Baffert, would have you believe that it is cancel culture's fault. We're going to discuss that.

[22:55:00]

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LEMON (on camera): So, take this. The trainer of the Kentucky Derby winner Medina Spirit not backing down over potential disqualification after the horse failed a post-race drug test. Hall of fame trainer, Bob Baffert, is blaming -- drum roll, please, cancel culture.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BOB BAFFERT, HALL OF FAME TRAINER: I know when Churchill Downs came out with that statement, that was pretty harsh. And I think the head of, you know, with all of the noise going on, we live in a different world now. This America is different. It was like a cancel culture kind of thing. So, they're reviewing it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON (on camera): Yes, of course. Cancel culture. Medina Spirit is yet to be disqualified from its win, if that even happens. The anti- inflammatory drug found in the horse's system is allowed in racing in certain amounts. But Medina Spirit tested for more than double the allowed limit in Kentucky racing.

Now there will be another test of the horse's blood and Baffert will have a chance to appeal. Baffert denies Medina Spirit has ever been treated with the drug, but this is not the first time Baffert's horses have had drug tests troubles.

The New York Times counts five times in just over the past year that his horses have failed tests. Now, we are going to wait on the updated tests, but I have to ask, is getting caught breaking the rules actually cancel culture? Or, is it accountability?

Republicans getting ready to vote on Liz Cheney as Kevin McCarthy tries to claim the GOP is a big tent party. Plus, a major fuel pipeline in the U.S. scrambling to get fully back online, after being hit with a cyberattack linked to a Russian criminal gang. All that, just ahead.

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