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Don Lemon Tonight
Stunning Video Of January 6 Attack Now Been Released; GOP Members Defended Rioters; Liz Cheney Ousted From Her Post; Four People Charged For Attacking Officer Fanone; Rep. Raja Krishnamoorthi (D-IL) Is Interviewed About What He Felt Upon Seeing The Horrific Video Of The Attack To Officer Fanone; GOP's Actions Have Consequences. Aired 10-11p ET
Aired May 12, 2021 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[22:00:00]
CHRIS CUOMO, CNN HOST: You just squash the noise. You ignore the game. Because that's the only way you get to a different place. You cannot depend on the people playing the game to change it. It's not how the game works.
That's it for us tonight. "CNN TONIGHT" with D. Lemon, the big show and the big star. If any man can find that tiger, it's him.
DON LEMON, CNN HOST: I call it being informed without being inundated.
CUOMO: Whoa, that's catchy.
LEMON: That's true, though, you want to be informed but you don't want to be inundated with bull, you know what, with tiger bait.
CUOMO: Informed is easy, you get information from a gazillion sources. It's analysis, it's testing power and it's exposing problems and opposing the B.S.
LEMON: So, the tiger thing, my mom texted me a week ago and there was a bear loose in her neighborhood. And she would not even go out to get the morning paper, until the bear was caught. So, the paper was stacking up at the end of the driveway, because there was a bear on the loose. I don't blame her because those things are fast. And if they get you.
CUOMO: Mom is getting soft because --
LEMON: Wait, a bear? You said mom is getting soft.
CUOMO: I'll tell you what. I'll tell you what.
LEMON: What?
CUOMO: I'm more dangerous than a bear. And when I asked one question about what was in your mother's --
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: Gosh. Hang on. Let me unroll the eye out of the back of my head. But go on.
CUOMO: She got up in my face so fast that she seems fearless.
LEMON: Yes.
CUOMO: I can't believe a bear, probably small, you know, more neighbor hoody bear.
LEMON: You're a pussycat, but or not a bear.
CUOMO: That's all -- it's a tiger defense.
LEMON: Everyone asked me, I want you to go checkup my Instagram because I did -- I went with a kid and play. This is all slick back. My hair is about this long on top, it's kind of crazy.
CUOMO: Why didn't you tease it up?
LEMON: Because I want to keep my job and I don't want the boss calling me saying like you, that's a bad haircut.
CUOMO: First of all. listen, nobody has said that to me. Do you understand? This is all in your head to the extent that anything isn't it.
LEMON: OK, all right, can I talk to you about something serious?
CUOMO: Please, anything else.
LEMON: All right. So, you know we've been talking -- by the way, I appreciate you know the CDC director, that was a really great interview and it was very informative for the viewers, so kudos to you for doing that.
I have a funny story. So, yes, I told you about the mask and you know, how I don't wear it outside unless, but I do it out of courtesy if I'm with a group of people, blah, blah, blah. So I was on the phone with my executive producer today, Maria, and I'm walking to go to get a haircut and I said wow, it's so great to be able to walk around without a mask, I feel like I'm doing something wrong, though it's bad.
She goes, do you miss though the anonymity of the mask? And I said yes, you know, a baseball cap, a mask in sunglasses, it's great I said. But nobody recognizes me anyway. I, as soon as I got that out of my mouth this guy walk by me, and he goes, Don Lemon, what's up! And the mask went back on.
CUOMO: It's your voice.
LEMON: It is my voice.
CUOMO: They will identify you --
LEMON: Yes.
CUOMO: -- by voice.
LEMON: Yes.
CUOMO: First of all, you got a beautiful voice, it's a distinctive voice and people know it.
LEMON: Yes. Mama. Yes. All right.
CUOMO: You do not have mama's voice.
LEMON: My mama said like this.
CUOMO: If you had her voice, you would own television.
LEMON: My mama sounds like Barry White.
CUOMO: Chris, Chris, you're crazy, Chris! Let me finish.
LEMON: All right.
CUOMO: I love you D. Lemon.
LEMON: Hey listen, I want you to watch this. I really want you -- I have some --
(CROSSTALK)
CUOMO: I know you got new video.
LEMON: I've got exclusive --
CUOMO: And I'm watching.
LEMON: I've got exclusive and you need to watch it. I'll see you soon. Thank you. I love you, brother.
I want to -- let's get to it then. This is CNN TONIGHT. I'm Don Lemon.
And we do have this exclusive video, a CNN exclusive. CNN has obtained a stunning video of exactly what happened in that attack on one of the officers fighting back that mob, the capitol insurrection. I want you to all sit around your TV and I want you to watch this, it is very important, a true American hero, Officer Michael Fanone.
This is difficult to watch. But it is the truth of what happened that day, the truth not the lies that you've been hearing, especially today. The lies that are being peddled by some Republicans who should really know better, they should be ashamed of themselves.
So, I want to show you this. I want to show you a portion of the video, we have more for you. But a portion of the video, Officer Fanone is outside on the capitol steps on the lower west terrace. This is approximately 3.15 on that day, there is a scuffle with the insurrectionists. He's tased and you hear him screaming as one of the insurrectionists guys, got one!
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNKNOWN: I got one!
[22:04:51]
UNKNOWN: All right. Easy.
UNKNOWN: I got it.
UNKNOWN: Don't hurt him! Don't hurt him! Hold on. I got you, man. I got you.
MICHAEL FANONE, D.C. METROPOLITAN POLICE OFFICER: I got kids!
UNKNOWN: Let him through, let him through, let him through.
UNKNOWN: Stand back, stand back, stand back.
UNKNOWN: Bring him up, bring him up, bring him up.
UNKNOWN: I got you.
UNKNOWN: Don't hurt him. Don't hurt him.
UNKNOWN: Officer, you're safe.
UNKNOWN: Leave him, leave him, leave him.
UNKNOWN: What's your name?
UNKNOWN: Let him through. Let him through.
UNKNOWN: I got you, man. I got you.
UNKNOWN: Which way do you want to go?
FANONE: I want to go back inside.
UNKNOWN: You want to go back inside?
FANONE: Yes.
UNKNOWN: Make way. Make room, make room, make room.
UNKNOWN: I got you.
UNKNOWN: Where we bringing him? Where we bringing him?
UNKNOWN: Lift him up! Lift him up!
UNKNOWN: We didn't know, we didn't know, we didn't know.
UNKNOWN: Officer is down, get him up!
UNKNOWN: We need a medic!
UNKNOWN: We need EMTs, now!
JIMMY ALBRIGHT, POLICE OFFICER, U.S. CAPITOL: I got it, it's my partner. Come on. Turn right, turn right, this way. Here we go.
UNKNOWN: Call an ambulance.
ALBRIGHT: Mike, stay in there, buddy. Mike, it's Jimmy, I'm here. Mike. They take his fucking vest off, maybe he's having trouble breathing. They take his vest. Mike! Mike, I'm here if you, buddy. Come on, dude.
UNKNOWN: Watch out, watch out!
UNKNOWN: Stand by. What's up? What happened?
UNKNOWN: Wake up, brother.
ALBRIGHT: Come on, Mike. Come on, buddy. We're going to (Inaudible).
UNKNOWN: Fanone, Fanone, all you are right, bro?
UNKNOWN: Take that (Inaudible).
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON (on camera): That is the first time I've watched that. I usually have to turn it off before it gets to that point. I have not seen that part. This is for all the people with hugs and kisses, it didn't happen, come on?
That is the -- that's the reality of what happened to Officer Michael Fanone that day. Dragged down the steps, tased with his own weapon and then you heard him yelling, I have kids.
[22:10:04]
Which seem to get through to some of the people on that crowd who gave him some protection. Knocked unconscious, when he came to all he wanted to know was, did we take the door back? Referring to the struggle he was a part of inside the tunnel, fighting alongside officers trying to stop insurrectionists from taking the capitol.
It's incredible, hero like I said. This is what he said later about some people in the crowd who gave him protection.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
FANONE: A lot of people have asked me, you know, my thoughts on the individuals in the crowd that helped me or try to offer some assistance. And I think kind of the conclusion I've come to is like, you know, thank you but (muted) you for being there.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON (on camera): And that is the truth, amen. We also saw exactly what happened on January 6th on the darkest day, one of the darkest days, I should say, the darkest day in recent history of this nation's history.
Yet some Republicans are shamefully trying to whitewash the deadly insurrection at the capitol, the insurrection that was spawned by the big lie. Congressman Andrew Clyde of Georgia who wants you to forget what you saw with your own eyes, saying there was no insurrection.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. ANDREW CLYDE (R-GA): There was no insurrection and you call it an insurrection in my opinion, is a bold-faced lie. Watching the TV footage of those who entered the capitol, and walk through statuary hall showed people in an orderly fashion staying between the stanchions and ropes taking videos and pictures.
You know, if you don't know the TV footage was a video from January the 6th, you would actually think it was a normal tourist visit.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON (on camera): Tell that to the families in the officers who were involved, that is a lie. That's 100 percent, 100 percent a lie. These were bloodthirsty rioters. You saw what happened to Officer Fanone. All because of that big lie, the big lie that Liz Cheney refused to support.
And for that, Republicans threw her under the bus. The vote held behind closed doors, so none of those cowards in the GOP would have to answer for those votes. But if they thought that they would silence her, they were sure wrong. Liz Cheney stepped up to the microphone and said this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. LIZ CHENEY (R-WY): I am absolutely committed as I said last night, as I said just now to my colleagues that we must go forward based on truth. We cannot both and embrace the big lie and embrace the Constitution. I will do everything I can to ensure that the former president never again gets anywhere near the Oval Office.
We have seen the danger that he continues to provoke with his language. We have seen his lack of commitment and dedication to the Constitution, and I think it's very important that we make sure whoever we elect is somebody who will be faithful to the Constitution.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON (on camera): I said it last night, this is a profile in courage. Liz Cheney refused to back down, even though she knew her party would punish her by taking away her leadership post when she is one of the few Republicans showing any kind of leadership at all, any kind of competency at all. But the most incredible thing we are today was from Kevin McCarthy, and even for the minority leader, this is stunning.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. KEVIN MCCARTHY (R-CA), HOUSE MINORITY LEADER: I don't think anybody is questioning the legitimacy of the presidential election, I think that is all over with, we're sitting here with the president today. So, from that point of view, I don't think that's a problem.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON (on camera): He doesn't think anybody is questioning the legitimacy of the presidential election? OK, that's when everything absolutely everything is about. The enormous, gigantic, big lie. The insurrection spawned by the big lie, everything, the only thing he got right that, was that Joe Biden was the president. A fact, that's right, a fact, the disgraced twice impeached one-term, former president is not only questioning, he's still lying about it.
Just last week, he tried to co-opt the big lie in service of his own election denial, putting out a statement saying the fraudulent presidential election of 2020 will be from this day forth known as the big lie. And then there is this video of him onstage at Mar-a-Lago ranting about finding thousands and thousands of votes. lie.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: I watch Arizona, so very interesting things are happing in Arizona, right? You know about that. And we just had a great rolling or actually the (Inaudible), the state senator of Arizona did --
[22:14:57]
Let's see what they find, I wouldn't be surprised if they found thousands and thousands and thousands of votes. This was a rigged election, everybody knows it. And we are going to be -- we're going to be watching it very closely.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON (on camera): God, it's like a -- no, it's not like a bad lounge act, it is a bad lounge act. He's had a bad lounge doing a bad act.
And then there is this, comparing our free and fair election to a thief robbing a jewelry store saying quote, "the diamonds must be returned."
Liz Cheney stood up against the big lie, lost her leadership post for it. And on the same day Republicans try to whitewash the insurrection at the capitol. Don't fall for it, don't fall for the lies. You saw what happened to Officer Fanone. And let's remember what he told me about what he experienced that day and how he feels about elected officials whitewashing what happened.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
FANONE: It's been very difficult seeing elected officials and other individuals kind of whitewash the events of that day or downplay what happened. You know, some of the terminology that was used like hugs and kisses, and you know, very fine people, like very different from what I experienced and what my coworkers experienced on the 6th. I experienced a group of individuals that were trying to kill me to accomplish, you know, their goal. I think that, sorry, Don. Man, I don't think I get this emotional. Yes, I mean, I experienced the most brutal savage hand to hand combat of my entire life. Let alone, my policing career which spans almost two decades. There's nothing that I had ever that I thought would be a part of my law enforcement career and nor was I prepared to experience.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON (on camera): That is the brutal truth of what happened that day at the capitol. The brutal truth told by a true American hero and no Republican lies. No attempts to hide what happened can change that. Our democracy depends on telling the truth.
And the truth is exactly what you saw in that video of what happened on January 6th. That's not all of it. We've got more from that exclusive video obtained by CNN coming up later in the show.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNKNOWN: We won't hurt you. We won't hurt you, pal.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[22:20:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON (on camera): So, you saw that exclusive video obtained by CNN. Officer Michael Fanone attacked when rioters stormed the capitol. You saw him tased with his own weapon. You heard his screams. You heard him yelling I've got kids.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNKNOWN: I got one!
UNKNOWN: All right. Easy.
UNKNOWN: I got it.
UNKNOWN: We won't hurt you. Don't hurt him, pal! I got you. I got you. Don't hurt him! Don't hurt him. Hold on. I got you, man. I got you.
FANONE: I got kids!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON (on camera): It's so hard to watch that. Yet Republicans are shamefully trying to hide the truth, to whitewash what happened at the capitol.
I want to bring in now CNN's senior justice correspondent Evan Perez, and law enforcement analyst Charles Ramsey. Gentlemen, thank you so much. I -- that video, it's unbelievable. It's
really hard to watch. Tell us what else is happening at this moment, Evan?
EVAN PEREZ, CNN SENIOR JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Don, you know this is probably the most heinous or among the most heinous of the scenes that unfolded that day. This is shortly after three o'clock, and the breach had already happened on the other side of the capitol. There were crowds already filling the terrace. I have pictures from just behind where Officer Fanone is being assaulted.
So, this is where, as he describes, you know, there is hand to hand combat as this mob is trying to get into the capitol from the west terrace, the lower terrace. And the officers are fighting for their lives. They're also trying to protect and stop the crowd from going inside the building to protect the members of Congress and the staff that are in there.
And you can see from some of the interaction, you can see that they are hell-bent on getting in there. The charges against four men who have been charged so far in the assault against Fanone describes a horrific scene.
You have one guy who pulled Fanone -- you can see him at the beginning of the video, he's pulling Fanone into the crowd. He's the one that helps begin this process. Another one grabs his taser. You can see part of it there. He grabs the taser and tases Officer Fanone and another one grabs his badge and his radio.
[22:25:04]
Another one tries to take his service weapon and says something to the effect of take his gun and kill him with it. That's what's Fanone says and what is described in the court records in the charges against these four men.
Again, some of the most horrific scenes happened right there at that scene in the lower terrace on the west side of the capitol that day.
LEMON: Chief Ramsey, I got to ask you, as you're watching officer Fanone, he told me it was difficult to hear lawmakers whitewash what happened on January 6th. What are you thinking when you watch this gut-wrenching video?
CHARLES RAMSEY, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Well, I mean, it's certainly hard to watch, but you can imagine just having to live through it like Fanone and so many others did, how traumatic that was. I mean, I've never seen anything like that and I've been through a lot of protests and a lot of riots, quite frankly. But I haven't seen anything like this.
And then to have elected officials act as if it never happens, I mean, it's an embarrassment. They should be ashamed of themselves, but I know they aren't. I mean, Congress -- many members of Congress have become a joke, and you saw it today from many of the members the way in which they handled the questioning of whether or not January 6 even took place.
And certainly, trying to make it look as if it was just a walk in the park, just a bunch of people strolling through the capitol. I mean, it's ridiculous.
LEMON: And when you look at it, when we talk about, you know, the difficult conversations we've been having about law enforcement, Chief Ramsey, and then you look at this officer who has passed out in the latter part of the video, I think the video that we're showing now, the portion we're showing now.
He has lost consciousness, and when he comes to his friends are carrying him, his partner, and he -- his Jimmy and he's saying I love you, get through it, hey, wake up, I love you, I love you, get through this. And then he wakes up and he goes, did we hold the door. That's --
RAMSEY: But I mean, --
LEMON: Go on.
RAMSEY: I mean, that's what he was thinking. I mean, you know, the dedication that you saw that day from the men and women of both the capitol police and the metropolitan police, I mean was just absolutely incredible. I mean, their leadership may have let them down but the men and women that were defending the capitol, or at least attempting to, I mean, that's where their heart and soul was.
And the last thing he remembered was probably fighting in that door and he just blacked out for a moment. And when he came to that was his first concern, did we hold the door? I'm not surprised at that. I'm really not. It's just absolutely amazing to me.
LEMON: Evan, I mean, this -- it all proves what Republicans said today, downplaying this insurrection is just absolute bullshit. It's a lie.
PEREZ: No. I mean, it's a complete lie. And just to hear what was the name of that representative, Andrew Clyde from Georgia going through. And if you look at this video, this does not, this does not look like a normal tourist visit, this does not look like people who are just staying within the lines between the velvet ropes there that are in statuary hall.
I mean, you, again, you can go online and look at the Justice Department web site and you can read the charges that these four men faced. And, you know, there's a lot of other documents that outline, Don, just what the hell that these officers were going through that afternoon.
LEMON: Yes. The quote that should be there is did we take the door back? Did we take the door back, is what he said. So, can you give us the latest, please, on the four people charged in attacking Fanone?
PEREZ: Yes. Albuquerque Head, he's the guy who pulled Fanone into the crowd, David Rodriguez who tased Fanone. Thomas Sibick who robbed him of his badge and his radio and Kyle Young who's the one who tried to take his service weapon, all of them have been arrested, they're facing a number of charges, felonies. And Don, they're all still in jail awaiting further proceedings in the court.
LEMON: Yes. Thank you, Evan. Thank you, Chief. Chief, it's good to have you on where we can talk about the good --
RAMSEY: Thank you.
LEMON: -- that officers do. Again, we have so many difficult conversations lately about police officers. This is an example of how policing should be in this country. Thank you very much, gentlemen. I appreciate it.
On the day we see this new body cam video, sparks flying at a hearing on capitol -- on the capitol insurrection. Former Trump officials dodging questions with Republicans doing what they do best, gaslighting.
[22:30:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON (on camera): So, if you've been watching the program, you saw that stunning video CNN has obtained of the attack on Officer Michael Fanone who was assaulted and badly injured as he tried to defend the capitol from rioters. This on the same day that Republicans on the capitol tried to whitewash the violence during a hearing on the insurrection.
Joining me now to discuss this Democratic Congressman Raja Krishnamoorthi who was at the hearing. Congressman, so happy to have you on, thank you so much.
First, I've got to get your reaction to that shocking body cam video showing the rioters attacking Officer Fanone on January 6. One of them saying, I got one. And then we hear Fanone scream as he has tasered, I got kids. What are you feeling as you watch this?
REP. RAJA KRISHNAMOORTHI (D-IL): Disgusted. I feel -- it's revolting. It also reminds me of how misguided, for instance, some of my colleagues on the other side of the aisle were today when they try to paint some of these rioters or a lot of these rioters as actually sympathetic people. And actually, they are criminals and they need to be brought to justice immediately by the Department of Justice.
LEMON: This is happening on the day where your Republican colleagues have tried to downplay the insurrection violence. One saying as you said, the rioters were peaceful, they used the words, the term patriots, Congressman, another saying that it was like a normal tourist a visit. I mean, how can anyone look at that video that day and say that with a straight face that it was a normal tourist visit and they were peaceful patriots?
[22:34:59] KRISHNAMOORTHI: I've never seen tourists like that at the capitol. That was a traumatizing day, that was an insurrection, these are people that came to harm others, to kill a vice president as well as the speaker and to basically overturn an election. That is the definition of an insurrection.
And for these people to claim that what was going on was some kind of peaceful protest or that people at the Trump rally could not possibly have made it in time to participate in the assault or that there is some third party group of people who staged an assault on the capitol having nothing to do with the folks who participated in the Trump rally was -- was just completely unacceptable.
LEMON: House Republicans officially purging Congresswoman Liz Cheney from her leadership role because she won't bow to Trump and accept the big lie that led to January 6th. What's going on with the GOP?
KRISHNAMOORTHI: I think they have an identity crisis.
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: I mean, honestly, what is -- what the hell -- I hate to use that language, but it is, we're in crazy town right now.
KRISHNAMOORTHI: I think they have an identity crisis. If they were a person they'd need to see -- they need to seek therapy. You know, I think that Liz Cheney. She is my classmate, we disagree on a lot but I don't question her patriotism or her motives, and I don't question her willingness to tell the truth.
And in this particular case, I think they've probably elevated her stature in some ways and given her more prominence to speak her mind. At the same time, they are doing just complete acrobatics to try to explain themselves on a day like today where I think at the White House Kevin McCarthy said no one questions the legitimacy of the election -- which, by the way is probably the right way to view the election.
However, you know, that causes his members consternation who still maintain that there was widespread election fraud. And so, I don't know exactly what is going on with the Republican Party except that we, and people like myself, we just have to stand for principle. And we really have to put our principles above all else.
LEMON: The hearing got heated today.
KRISHNAMOORTHI: You noticed.
LEMON: Yes. I just -- I want to play this moment for you because I want your reaction.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KRISHNAMOORTHI: She requested additional support from you. And during that 1.5 hours either you disobeyed an order given to you by the president to help Mayor Bowser or the president changed his order and asked you to delay support, or you just plain froze and were indecisive while people were being -- people were being injured, killed, while hundreds of rioters breached the capitol. And a nation was traumatized. Sir, because of your actions --
(CROSSTALK)
CHRISTOPHER MILLER, FORMER ACTING U.S. DEFENSE SECRETARY: There were 8,000 badged and credentialed police officers on duty.
KRISHNAMOORTHI: And you weren't there.
MILLER: The United States Armed Forces only to use as a last resort.
KRISHNAMOORTHI: You were AWOL, Mr. Secretary.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON (on camera): Did you get the answers you were looking for today?
KRISHNAMOORTHI: You know, I think that Mr. Miller showed a certain sneering condescension toward answering our questions. He wasn't there to give us answers. He was there to defend himself and his own ego and his -- it was a big CYA for himself. And yet, he could not explain, for instance, why it took 1.5 hours just, you know, to say yes to a request, a frantic, urgent request from the mayor of D.C. to please send additional resources.
And we didn't even get into the hours it took after that for those resources to actually be put in place. And I think that just was a moment where he didn't have any good answers. And so, he was just going to obfuscate. And then he was going to talk about other people being there, and that's why I said well, you were AWOL, Mr. Secretary, you were AWOL.
LEMON: Thank you, Congressman. I appreciate you coming on.
KRISHNAMOORTHI: Thank you.
LEMON: Please come back. Thanks so much.
KRISHNAMOORTHI: Thank you, Don.
LEMON: So, we have more exclusive video coming up a little bit later on in the show. And we're going to watch the officers battle back the crowd of insurrectionists while they try to hold the line. You remember that as people are trying to tell you that there were tourists, just tourists there that day.
[22:40:00]
As Liz Cheney is battling for the soul of the GOP after being ousted from her leadership role. But with hardly any other Republicans siding with her. What does it mean for the future of the country?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK) LEMON (on camera): Tonight, Liz Cheney is gone from her leadership post in the House GOP for refusing to go along with Trump's big lie of election fraud. Saying she is now battling for the soul of the Republican Party. As some of her GOP colleagues are trying to whitewash the deadly capitol insurrection.
Let's discuss now with CNN senior political commentator David Axelrod, a former Obama -- the former senior adviser to President Barack Obama, and political commentator Charlie Dent, a former Republican Congressman.
Gentlemen, thanks for joining.
David, I'm going to start with you. There are really two big lies. Right? That the election was stolen, and then this lie to minimize what really happened on the capitol on January 6th.
[22:45:05]
We've seen the videos of just how brutal that day was for law enforcement, and now we have Officer Fanone's body cam showing more violence. The question very simply, do Republicans have no shame?
DAVID AXELROD, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, they've simply made a Faustian bargain here with Donald Trump. And once you make that bargain, everything kind of cascades downward, you know, part of the bargain was to buy into his notion that an election that he lost by seven million votes. That he won. And the second one is that this was not an insurrection on January 6th, just people expressing themselves, that's been his view.
You know, Kevin McCarthy had a different view in the wake of the thing but he's come on board and he's taken the whole caucus, virtually the whole caucus with him. The problem was that Liz Cheney wouldn't go along. She was telling inconvenient truths.
And that was not tolerable, and so, they on mass to remove her. I doubt they'll silence her. They may have increased their platform. But this is all in service of the Faustian bargain they've made with Donald Trump.
LEMON: Charlie, I'm afraid of the answer but I'm going to ask you. Do Republicans honestly believe that they can just downplay what happened and say things like it was -- it was a normal tourist visit? It's all -- it's all on video. So why do it?
CHARLIE DENT, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, yes, there were a handful of those members earlier today at the hearing who made just such a ridiculous claim. I do believe that most House Republicans overwhelmingly recognized the horrible event of that day. They know, they were there. They were part of it, they were threatened. I talked to many of them.
Many of them understand how seriously and grave the situation was. The fact that a handful of them today, you know, spun this fairytale that these were somehow bunch of benign tourists just wandering along is absurd. So, I -- most of them -- look, most of them understand how bad this is. Most of them are sympathetic I think to a certain extent with Liz Cheney. They know that Liz is telling the truth, even though she made a lot of them very uncomfortable.
So, what we're -- what we're seeing play out in public I think is very different than what we're hearing behind closed doors.
LEMON: You know, David, Liz Cheney is, she's warning that Trump could incite more violence. She was told NBC tonight that she plans to be one of the leaders in fight to -- in a fight to restore the GOP. What is she up against when so many Republicans are sticking with the Trump and the big lie? I actually do think, David, that they made an enemy that they don't want to make and maybe they haven't realized the power of that enemy. That's just my gut, I don't know.
AXELROD: Well, Charlie can speak to this but Liz Cheney is as tenacious as they come. I think that comes in the genes there and I do think that she's going to be tenacious about this and she's fighting for the one thing that I think is absolutely correct, which is there should be a 9/11 style commission to get at the bottom of what happened on the 6th. Who did what, you know, and it should be a nonpartisan commission of people who were not elected officials. Much as the 9/11 commission was.
It's absolutely appropriate to do that. And that's one of the offenses for which she was removed for being outspoken about the need for that. So, yes, I think she's going to be a problem for the Republicans. But make no mistake about it, Don, I mean Charlie says, and I have no doubt that this is right. That privately, these members know how bad it was. And I'm sure privately, most of them know that Donald Trump lost the election.
But there's a reason why they only say it privately. Because if they say it publicly, they'll get the same treatment Liz Cheney did and they fear primary challenges and they fear Donald Trump. And they want to hold on to their jobs. So, the price of that is silence.
LEMON: So, you're saying they're cowards?
AXELROD: Well, I don't know if any other -- I don't know any other way to describe it. I mean, you know, look, I think they made a Faustian bargain to hang on to their jobs and they will remain silent in the face of all of this in order to do it.
LEMON: Well, let's talk, you know, earlier, Charlie, David said that you would speak to the tenacity that Liz Cheney was how tenacious she is. But they're betting that kicking Liz Cheney out of leadership and sticking with Trump and the big lie is going to help them regain power. Do you worry their bet will pay off?
DENT: Well, there are certain Republicans that have a very strong chance of reclaiming the House majority in the midterms, but by sacking Liz Cheney the way they did, I mean, really, kicking a thoughtful principal woman from leadership.
[22:50:08] I think that does not play well with a lot of suburban voters, particularly suburban women. Let's remember, Republicans have been bleeding badly in the suburbs for the last four or five years. This is a great challenge to the party. The members who are embracing Trump so strongly are the ones who live in this very safe ruby red districts, that's all they need to do to win.
But in those marginal sing districts in the states where swing voters matter, you know, this action today was very harmful. So, I think that they -- I think they're really hoping that they can somehow with redistricting just get through the mid-terms and come out with a slim majority, but I do believe today's actions have not help Republicans or women and in those swing districts in particular.
LEMON: Liz Cheney is saying that she is going to do everything she can to ensure that Trump never gets near the Oval Office again. And there's also an update on the sweeping election bill to talk about. I'll get that in right after this break. We'll be right back.
[22:55:00]
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LEMON: Back now with David Axelrod and Charlie Dent. So, Charlie, Liz Cheney says she's going to do everything she can to ensure Trump never gets a near the Oval Office again and she's calling out Kevin McCarthy for not leading with principles. Where does this fight for the future of the GOP go from here?
DENT: Well, I think the fight is just beginning, as a Liz Cheney has said. There are a lot of Republicans out there, myself included, you know, who feel like we don't have a home. We feel like the party has left us. We haven't left the party.
And I think that Liz Cheney, now she is liberated, she will be able to use her platform to talk about what the Republican Party should stand for. Talk about real values, rule of law, constitutional order, truth, honesty, democracy.
She's going to be able to talk about things and I think -- and she'll be seen as a consistent principled leader where on the other hand, the minority leader, Kevin McCarthy, you know, has flip-flopped on the insurrection.
You know, he said, he called out Trump the day of and has since walked that back, and I think, you know, he looks a very wobbly on all this and Liz looks very forthright and resolute and strong and she is not going to shut up. She is strong, she is not a shrinking violent and she is tenacious, as David said earlier.
LEMON: Before I get back to David, I've got another one for you. This is stunning. Several far-right GOP members dunked on Liz Cheney like, I mean, these guys like 12 years old, Representative Madison Cawthorn, like, his tweet is up. Whatever. I mean, she has forgotten more than he will ever know about politics and about principles. But I've got to ask you something about Representative Boebert
tweeting this. Liz Cheney is a GOP of the past. We are not going back. Is she right?
DENT: Well, I wouldn't say that. You know, the GOP has got to be part of a broader coalition of members who are more traditional and I do think the party has to change. I mean, Liz Cheney certainly more conservative than I am. But I do think the future for the party is not with the extreme elements, whether it's Marjorie Taylor Green, Matt Gaetz, Cawthorn and Boebert.
That back wing of the party I think is really the fringe and we have to get the party back to believing in, you know, in limited government tolerance. You know, basic virtues and values of a constructive role on the international stage, all sorts of things that we should be doing.
That's where the party needs to be. Those are the kinds of principles that they should all be embracing. And if you can't embrace those kinds of principles, well, then, I don't think there's going to be a lot of hope for the party.
LEMON: David, I've been wanting to talk to you about this. Senator Joe Manchin won't support the sweeping election bill that's in the Senate right now. Meant to counter -- to counteract the voter restrictions, all those GOP -controlled state legislatures are passing around the country. This bill getting kicked -- getting killed by a Democrat. I mean, that's a huge setback for President Biden, no?
AXELROD: Well, it's a huge setback for democracy not to pass any bills that will kind of push back against the 43 or whatever it is states where Republican legislatures are trying to use this big lie as a pretense for making it more difficult for people to vote.
You know, we'll see where Manchin, you know, if adjustments are made that will get Manchin on board. But the reality is, that even if Manchin is on board, this is subject to a filibuster, and so, this is a two-step process and the real difficulty is Manchin and Senator Sinema have both said they would not -- they would not set aside the filibuster.
So, the idea that you're going to get 10 Republicans to go along with a bill that pushes back on these Republican measures and legislatures across the country seems very, very remote to me. And that's really concerning. Because this is a fundamental -- you know, this is a, using a big lie about the last election to try and rig the next one.
LEMON: Interesting. Charlie, real quick if you can. Bipartisan meeting at the White House today. Do you think that they're going to reach a deal on something, actually some bipartisanship?
DENT: Well, I think on infrastructure, there's a real chance. Senator Capito, you know, she's had about 600 billion and the president is at two trillion. I bet they can lend closer to a trillion dollars on an infrastructure plan.
[23:05:05]
I remain optimistic that they can do something there. Maybe something on police reform.
