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Don Lemon Tonight
Maricopa County Auditing Election Results; House Set To Vote To Investigate January 6 Riots; President Biden Remains Optimistic; New York A.G. Teaming Up With Manhattan D.A.; House Minority Leader Kevin McCarthy And His Political Fate. Aired 10-11p ET
Aired May 18, 2021 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[22:00:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CHRIS CUOMO, CNN HOST (on camera): We got to see the game, it's being played all around us and it's as bad as I ever seen it. It feeds into literally every problem we face. The good news is, we got one place that can make a huge change. Thanks for watching. "DON LEMON TONIGHT" with its star, D. Lemon right now.
DON LEMON, CNN HOST: You better get it right.
CUOMO: I did.
LEMON: You bet -- last night you messed it up.
CUOMO: I did. Are you sure?
LEMON: My mom is not happy.
CUOMO: What did she say?
LEMON: She said Chris messed up the name of your show, I'm not happy with him. He's getting a spanking when I see him.
CUOMO: She told me that she thought they were going to call the show not Chris Cuomo's tonight.
LEMON: That's every show on CNN as far as you are concerned except for one.
CUOMO: CNN, Cuomo news network.
LEMON: You're right. It's all around us. I was, you know, I was listening to a little bit of your program today and others. Everyone -- a lot -- a number of the callers who called in today were saying, I thought the craziness was over, I thought the madness was over, it is just beginning. Post-truths world. Post-truths society. What do we do about that?
CUOMO: The dangerous party is the out of power party in a two-party system because opposition is enough. See, this is the bad place we put ourselves with the disaffection, and with the disrespect for the process. This is why we need more parties, frankly. But while we're in this binary system opposition is enough. McCarthy isn't going against his boy down in Mar-a-Lago.
LEMON: No way.
CUOMO: He's not going to investigate. Look, the right --
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: I saw last night that shocker -- yes, he's not supporting it.
CUOMO: You know how their upset they always whenever --
LEMON: Yes.
CUOMO: -- a Muslim extremist does something and it's not called terror right away.
LEMON: Yes.
CUOMO: They're always upset. Why isn't a terror? Why don't you call what it is? Islamic terror. Now they designate something as terror, they don't want to investigate unless you investigate it's antifa. When have you ever seen one event investigated as a coefficient of another unrelated incident?
LEMON: It's so frustrating to, listen, listen, I don't have the whackos on my show or the conspiracy believers but when you hear people say, well, there is no way the Trump folks could have gotten to the capitol because the speech was -- that's not true.
CUOMO: Why wouldn't -- why wouldn't someone believe that when the minority leader of the House of Representatives is saying to them, if you don't look at these other ones.
LEMON: Yes.
CUOMO: And they go on faux news over there and they're all talking about why Pelosi won't investigate these other groups, why wouldn't they think that?
LEMON: Yes. Or that someone's death could be brought on from the stress of what happened to them at the capitol a day or so before. That is -- you think all of a sudden someone just had a stroke or died out of nowhere, a young, otherwise healthy person. It's just -- it's ridiculous.
(CROSSTALK)
CUOMO: Look, it is everywhere. It is all a coefficient of paying fealty to the guy in Florida. Maricopa the fraudy (Ph). You have the real Republicans saying --
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: I wish I had come up with that. CUOMO: Hold on, we didn't do this. We didn't do this. I'm a -- I'm a
Republican. I didn't do this.
LEMON: Yes.
CUOMO: So now the Senate wants to look at their races. Anybody who disagrees we want to look at your races.
LEMON: Yes.
CUOMO: It's like Liz Cheney on the state level. You see what happens in North Carolina.
LEMON: Yes.
CUOMO: You know? Hey, look, they're completely justified, the video shows it. The video doesn't show it. By the way, you know, this guy, this Black guy is a drug dealer.
LEMON: Yes.
CUOMO: You know, he had assault with deadly weapon back in 1995, you know what I'm saying? You know what I'm saying, right?
LEMON: Yes. I know what you're saying, we all know what they're saying. But we need more people -- we need more Arizona Republicans to stand up all over the country.
CUOMO: Good for them. Because it's not easy to do, Don.
LEMON: And it's time to move on from the big lie. It's just that, a big lie and it's hurting all of us. I shall see you tomorrow, sir.
CUOMO: Don Lemon Tonight, make your witness. I love you, sir.
LEMON: You more.
This is -- I almost said it -- this is Don Lemon Tonight. You heard Chris laughing. This is DON LEMON TONIGHT. Thank you for joining us.
A night when the battle for democracy is raging on two fronts that I need to tell you about. We are going to take you -- this is live in Washington, D.C. That's where Republicans are trying to whitewash the capitol insurrection, they're trying to stop a bipartisan commission from getting to the truth of what happened on one of the darkest days in American history.
Don't go to Arizona yet. Because don't send me your -- are you still talking about the insurrection? Yes. And I'm going to continue to talk about it. So, don't waste your finger energy, don't waste your breath, don't waste your time. It's important. I'm going to keep talking about it! And you know what, you're going to pay attention to it, because you know it's wrong. OK? So, save your energy.
Now I want to take you to Arizona. That's where a sham audit of ballots in Maricopa County, ballots that have already been counted over and over and over, a county Joe Biden won, is nothing but another effort to push this big lie, nothing but another effort.
And you need to know it's being fought everywhere in between. Everywhere the big lie flourishes is cultivated by the Republican Part. You're the party of insurrection now, the big lie. That's -- don't say that's not us. Those people don't represent us. Yes, they do, you let them take over your party.
[22:05:03]
Now you're the party of insurrection. That's who you are. And the party of the big lie. Fake election fraud. The top Republican in the House trying to head off the January 6th commission before it's even begun. Are you scared, bro? Kevin, what are you afraid of, huh? Shed some light on the subject, let people know, you want all the ballots investigated. Why not investigate what happened on January 6th if you want. As you say, transparency.
Sources are telling our very own Jamie Gangel that Kevin McCarthy is worried about what the commission could uncover. Yes, well, of course. Worried that he'll be called as a witness, yes, he should be. And alienating everyone. Well, you did it. And now, after GOP leadership told members to vote their conscience on the commission, now they're doing a complete 180, urging them to vote no. So, you're urging him to vote no. What if their conscience is no?
I thought you said vote your conscience, not no. OK, so, that's your position, huh? That you can't be Republican and also defend democracy, you can't be Republican and vote your conscience. I guess conscience goes out of the window when the top Republican and House declares that he cannot support the legislation.
Well, he could, in fact, he would if he cared at all about the truth, if he cared at all about what happened on January 6th when a bloodthirsty Trump supporters, bloodthirsty Trump insurrectionists beat police defending the capitol, hunted the halls for lawmakers, put up a gallows outside and chanted, hang Mike Pence.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CROWD: Hang Mike Pence! Hang Mike Pence! Hang Mike Pence!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON (on camera): Well this is just another chapter in a long-sorted saga of Republican hypocrisy, and the crave and evolution of the minority leader blatantly going along with the prevailing winds. Never mind the truth, winds blowing that way that's where I'm going to go?
Remember Kevin McCarthy got into a shouting match on January 6 with then-president, the former guy who said, well, Kevin I guess these people are more upset about the election than you are. McCarthy, as rioters were trying to break into his office through the windows, firing back. Who the f do you think you're talking to? Except he said the actual word. Just one week later, McCarthy saying this on the House floor.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. KEVIN MCCARTHY (R-CA), HOUSE MINORITY LEADER: The president bears responsibility for Wednesday's attack on Congress by mob rioters. He should have immediately denounced the mob when he saw what was unfolding.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON (on camera): Well, whatever happened to that guy, where is he? Well, this happened, it was a complete about-face days later when he was asked if Trump provoked the rioters. Here it is.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MCCARTHY: I don't believe he provoked if you listen to what he said at the rally.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON (on camera): And then, abject surrender to the disgraced, say it with me, twice-impeached, one-term former president when McCarthy made a pilgrimage to Mar-a-Lago to kiss the ring. And later tried to completely rewrite history on the Fox propaganda network, no less, claiming Trump agreed to help put a stop of the insurrection when we know what actually happened.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MCCARTHY: I engaged in the idea of making sure we could stop what was going on inside the capitol at that moment time, the president said he would help.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON (on camera): That's some good acting right there, right? Look, we know what's going on here, you know. It's obvious. Kevin McCarthy is facing the very real possibility of being subpoenaed and ask a whole lot of questions about what happened on January 6 and that audience on one in Mar-a-Lago won't like that all.
I would say that this is the GOP's moment of truth except it's actually their you can't handle the truth moment. Remember Jack Nicholson in the movie "A Few Good Men?"
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JACK NICHOLSON, ACTOR: You can't handle the truth!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON (on camera): Well, Republicans can't handle the truth, so the top Republican in the House sides with the big lie, opposing the January 6th commission which shouldn't be any surprise. Remember this?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) MCCARTHY: President Trump won this election, so everyone who's listening, do not be quiet, do not be -- do not be silent about this. We cannot allow this to happen before our very eyes.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[22:09:55]
LEMON (on camera): I mean, this is, there's got to be like two or three Kevin McCarthy's, right? Like whatever the clone didn't get the right update or something. One of them is like Kevin McCarthy 10, the other one is like an 8. Well, those an x, or whatever that would be a 10. But one of them didn't get the update, so it keeps repeating one thing, and then the other thing keeps repeating the other thing, and then the other one keeps repeating the other thing.
But regardless, there it is. The big lie. The big lie that spawned the insurrection that Kevin McCarthy is trying to sweep under the rug tonight. Trying to whitewash what we all saw with our own eyes. You saw it and you heard it with your own ears.
How many times do I have to say it? You know it's true, they know it's true. They know it's true. Republicans know it's true, yet they keep throwing more lies at the wall they're hoping it will stick.
Remember like grandma used to do with the spaghetti. Is the pasta ready? Throw it against the wall. That's it. If it sticks. You know, the rioters, they were just like tourists. No, they were antifa. No, they were, yes, they were Black Lives Matter.
OK. Look, you saw that video. Did you see any Black people? Did you see -- you know. Black Lives Matter. White lies matter too. Those are all lies. Remember what one of the American heroes who fought back the rioters Officer Harry Dunn told me.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
LEMON: Some Republican lawmakers and even former -- the former president they are trying to rewrite history saying that the riots that weren't that bad and that the rioters were actually antifa. I know you have said that this isn't political for you, but how do you respond to them twisting the truth like that?
HARRY DUNN, U.S. CAPITOL POLICE OFFICER: It's hurtful. It's hurtful and it's kind of like a slap in the face. Without even asking us or talking to us about what we went through.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
LEMON (on camera): And then Officer Michael Fanone who was dragged down the capitol steps by the mob, tased with his own weapon.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MICHAEL FANONE, D.C. METROPOLITAN POLICE OFFICER: I'm not a politician. I'm not an elected official. I don't expect anybody to give two shits about my opinions but I will say this. You know, those are lies. And peddling that bullshit is an assault on every officer that fought to defend the capitol. It's disgraceful.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON (on camera): Even a friend of QAon Congresswomen, Jewish space laser, Marjorie Taylor Greene, a friend who was there on January 6th said it wasn't antifa or Black Lives Matter, that it was Trump supporters.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ANTHONY AGUERO, JANUARY 6TH RIOTER: We were all there. It was not antifa. It was not BLM. It was Trump supporters that did that yesterday. I'm the first to admit it. Being one myself.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON (on camera): Like I said, white lies. L-i-e-s. Not lives, I said white lies matter. So, the truth is was Trump supporters who rioted at the capitol but like I said Republicans just can't handle the truth. Mitch McConnell who said this after he voted to acquit the former president who incited the insurrection. So, yes, hypocrisy much.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. MITCH MCCONNELL (R-KY), MINORITY LEADER: There's no question. Done. That President Trump is practically and morally responsible for provoking the events of the day. No question about it. The people who stormed this building believed they were acting on the wishes and instructions of their president.
And having that belief was a foreseeable consequence of the growing crescendo of false statements, conspiracy theories and reckless hyperbole which the defeated president kept shouting into the largest megaphone on planet earth.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON (on camera): I mean, that was then. But days later, he was all sure I'd support him.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BRET BAIER, ANCHOR, FOX NEWS: If the president was the party's nominee, would you support him?
MCCONNELL: The nominee of the party? Absolutely.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[22:14:56]
LEMON (on camera): OK. Now he and McCarthy are both being threatened tonight by their boss, as Chris calls him, the fraud father. I wish I came up with that, that's a good one, Chris. But there are a handful of Republicans willing to stand up for the truth, a handful. Lisa Murkowski said Trump should testify.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MANU RAJU, CNN SENIOR CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Do you think former President Trump should talk to this commission to detail what was happening on that day?
SEN. LISA MURKOWSKI, (R-AK): If you -- if you put together a commission that is focused on the events of January 6th, I think he's obviously a very key individual.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON (on camera): Adam Kinzinger says he'll vote for the January 6th commission, not to mention Liz Cheney who got thrown under the bus for taking a stand for the truth.
And meanwhile, in Arizona, the audit that has been a three-ring circus from the beginning. It's been more than three rings. Including searching for a bamboo in some of the ballots on the conspiracy theory that ballots were being flown in from Asia, that's why I said more than a three-ring circus if there is such a thing.
That audit reached new depths of ridiculous tonight. After claiming that a key database had been deleted from Maricopa County's election servers, a claim Trumpeted by the former president, auditors basically said, never mind.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNKNOWN: Do you still need to get that database from the county or did that rebuilding or recovery that you did, is that going -- does that have the information you currently need for that database?
UNKNOWN: I have the information I need from the recovery efforts of the data.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON (on camera): I'm going to talk to the head of the county's election department later in this show. That is happening as the president of the United States, Joe Biden is pushing ahead with his agenda and trying to make a deal with Republicans.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: We believe we can find a bipartisan deal on infrastructure but we made one thing clear. We'll compromise but doing nothing is not an option. Doing nothing is not an option.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON (on camera): Transportation Secretary Pete Buttigieg met with Republicans today to talk infrastructure. He weighs in later in the show. But how do you hammer out a deal, seriously, how do you hammer out a deal with a party that is pushing the big lie in Arizona and trying to whitewash the insurrection on Capitol Hill? How do you do that? How do you do it? Because that's the GOP today. Own it. All of you.
We also have some breaking news tonight that I know you want to hear about New York State's investigation of Trump, the Trump Organization, we're going to tell you what it all means for the former president. Lots more, next.
[22:20:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON (on camera): All right, and we're back now. We're talking about the big lie and digging into what exactly the Republican Party is, what are they so afraid of that will be revealed by an investigation into what happened January 6th.
But as we do that, we've gotten some breaking news here into CNN and it's on New York State's investigation of the Trump Organization. So, let's explain what all of this means. Now I want to bring in CNN's Kara Scannell, and also, our senior legal analysis Elie Honig to guide through this.
Good evening to both of you. So, Kara, give us the latest. What do we know?
KARA SCANNELL, CNN REPORTER: Sure, Don. So, we've just learned tonight that the New York Attorney General, Letitia James, has joined a criminal investigation by the Manhattan District Attorney's Office led by Cy Vance. Now James' office has been conducting a civil investigation into the Trump Organization since 2019 but now their office has turned part of their investigation criminal.
Here's what spokesperson for the A.G.'s office told my colleague, Sonia Moghe he said, we have informed the Trump Organization that our investigation is no longer purely civil in nature. We are now actively investigating the Trump Organization in a criminal capacity along with the Manhattan D.A.
Now a source familiar with the investigation tells me that certain members of the New York Attorney General's team that are highly knowledgeable of the Trump Organization that had been digging into this company for some time are now teaming up with the investigators in Vance's office, you know.
So, what this signifies is that they are bringing this additional knowledge that they have had into the criminal inquiry with Vance and both offices have been investigating broad ranges of conduct involving the Trump Organization looking into whether any banks were misled, whether insurance companies were misled, whether there are company or any of its executives had committed tax fraud.
So, this is a broad investigation. And now the D.A.'s office is teaming up with the A.G.'s office which just kind of adds even more people to work on this investigation and people who really know a lot about it and who have been digging into it for some time.
Now lawyer for the Trump Organization declined to comment. They previously call these investigations a witch hunt and have said that Letitia James' office has been politically motivated.
LEMON: So, basically, they're combining resources, which I would imagine, Elie, correct me if I'm wrong, not good news for the Trump Organization. So, and tell me if I'm asking the right question here. Explain the significance here, what does it mean that this has moved from civil to criminal in nature. Am I correct with that question? Is that what's happened?
ELIE HONIG, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Yes, Don. So, the first thing this tells me is the New York Attorney General's office saw something. They say something that has led them to expand and change the nature of their investigation because going back to 2019, as Kara said, the New York attorney general has been in the civil lane, not criminal, while the D.A. has been in the criminal lane.
Now the A.G. has seen something that's prompted them to make a decision to say now we need to cross over and join you, D.A.'s office on the criminal side. That's a big move. We don't know what it is, we don't what it was. I want to say this about the New York Attorney General's office. I've worked with them on various cases. They don't do every kind of crime. If they have one thing, they specialize in above all others, it's complex fraud, that's what they pride themselves on, that sort of right in their wheelhouse.
So, yes, this is a significant development, it's certainly not good news for the Trump Organization.
[22:25:00]
LEMON: Yes. Because when I said that the reason, I ask the response that Kara said, we've informed the Trump Organization that our investigation is no longer purely civil in nature, so that means it's civil in nature but also criminal. They have just added this criminal capacity on top of it.
Who are we talking about here, Elie, when we talk about the Trump Organization?
HONIG: Well, you know, the Trump Organization likes to put out this veneer that it's this massive corporation but really, if you hear people who are part of it testify and talk about it, Michael Cohen has talked about it publicly, he said it's really just a mom and pop shop, it's basically run by Donald Trump, by some of his children, by Eric Trump and by, you know, this guy Weisselberg is obviously a key guy. He is the financial gatekeeper. This is a financial case.
We know that the D.A. has been pressuring Weisselberg through his family members. What they appear to be trying to do is to flip Weisselberg and they believe he has the keys to the kingdom. So, it's really a pretty small shop and they're going to be under an intense spot right now.
LEMON: Kara and Elie with our breaking news, thank you very much. We'll continue on top of this as we get new information here into CNN.
The GOP is trying to stop a bipartisan commission from getting to the truth on what happened in one of the darkest days in American history. What are Republicans trying to hide? What are they trying to whitewash away?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. JIM MCGOVERN (D-MA): We have some members of Congress who are basically saying that what happened what we all experienced, what we saw it didn't really happen. I mean, enough.
[22:30:00]
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON (on camera): So, the House votes tomorrow on creating an independent commission to investigate the deadly capitol riot, but the GOP Leader, Kevin McCarthy is trying to derail it, saying today that he opposed -- he's opposed to the bipartisan commission, and the number two GOP official in the House Congress -- Congressman Steve Scalise going with McCarthy and urging fellow Republicans to vote against it.
There's a lot to discuss with CNN's senior commentator John Kasich, the former Republican Governor of Ohio. Good evening, sir. So, let's get into it.
JOHN KASICH, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I'm very disappointed, Don. Don, I'm very, very disappointed.
LEMON: Good evening. How are you?
KASICH: You had your inaugural show and I wasn't good enough to make it. It's going to be tough to recover from this.
LEMON: You be all right.
KASICH: I just want you to know.
LEMON: As my mom says, you be all right. Thank you. It's good to see you.
KASICH: Thank you.
LEMON: Let's talk about what's going on. Because this flip flop by Kevin McCarthy on this commission. This is what our Jamie Gangel is reporting that sources close to the situation are telling here that he is too scared, he is worried that he could hurt his chances of becoming speaker, and number two, the number two Republican, Steve Scalise who first says, you know, vote your conscience -- conscience and now is saying, no, wait, vote against it. Is this -- is this a panic about this commission? What is it? Can you help explain?
KASICH: You know, I think Jamie did good reporting there. I mean, sources tell me that he's worried, that he would be called to testify and then he would have to say what his conversation with Donald Trump was about and he's probably worried that he will erase those goodwill trips -- or trip that he took down to Mar-a-Lago. I don't know.
But look, Don, they've been investigating things forever. I mean, 9/11, remember when, you know, the marine barracks were blown up in Lebanon, we did investigation, Iran-Contra, there was investigation. I mean, this is just normal to take a look at after-action and figure out what happened. This should just be a unanimous vote to check it out, to look into it. It's a bipartisan group. It's got equal numbers on both sides and I -- it's ridiculous. It's ridiculous.
LEMON: OK. All right. And I think this is a very fair question then because of what's happening. So, John, what it appears -- it appears that the official position of the GOP -- of GOP is that -- the GOP is that members can't defend democracy or vote have a vote of conscience. They have to do what the leadership tells them or the person who is sitting down at a golf club doing, like, you know, wedding shout outs.
KASICH: Well, they're not going to get Liz Cheney's vote. And they're not getting Kinzinger's vote. And I've been saying all along, at some point the dam breaks. And you know, these are people who go back to their districts, they are important people back there and then they go down there and think they have to take orders from somebody. This has been a big change in the Congress since I left, which is the leadership sort of tells you what you're going to do.
You know how long I would last down there, Don, you and I together, I mean, it wouldn't work --
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: I could --
KASICH: -- because I never took orders. I never took any orders. I was never asked to take any orders. If somebody would have told me to take an order what do you think I would have told them?
LEMON: I know.
KASICH: So, this is so foreign to me. It's foreign to me.
LEMON: See the difference is that you would go. I wouldn't even get on the plane. I'd like -- I'll jump. Have fun. But honestly, would it been better to let the commission play out and at least have some input?
KASICH: Of course.
LEMON: Because if it goes nowhere Democrats will investigate and Speaker Pelosi will be calling the shots.
KASICH: Don, we were -- this is one of those things we're always going to remember where we were on January 6th.
LEMON: That's right. KASICH: I remember exactly where I was, who I was with and how I
watched it on my friend's phone. And I called my wife. I mean, this is one of the attacks on a precious institution of the United States government. I mean, it's unbelievable. And we all remember where we were. And they want to check it out, they want to investigate it and learn from it and they're saying that you should vote no? I mean, no for what reason.
LEMON: Yes.
[22:35:04]
KASICH: I mean, the reasons are all, they'll silly.
LEMON: We were --
KASICH: And the Republicans were all lined up and we're going to have to watch that vote. I'm anxious to see how that vote turns out. I'm anxious to see how Republicans in the state of Ohio are going to vote on that. Because we're watching.
LEMON: Well, you're right.
KASICH: We're watching. You may have day today but you won't have it tomorrow, perhaps. Just watch.
LEMON: We were all sitting around, we were preparing for the certification of the election, remember, everyone was on standby.
KASICH: Yes.
LEMON: It was a big political day and night in America and I just remember watching my colleagues on television earlier saying, here it is, this is what we've been saying could happen if you continue to lie to people.
The GOP Rep. John Katko who cut the deal on Kevin McCarthy's behest got McCarthy nearly everything that he wanted, and even number of Democrats and Republicans on this commission a sign off on both sides for subpoenas.
So what is up with McCarthy, is he trying to cover up his own involvement in spreading the lie, and his phone call with Trump, is he afraid of testifying like, I know I'm asking you a lot of questions, you don't have a crystal ball and you can't read minds but maybe you have some insight to what's happening on Capitol Hill.
KASICH: Well, I think -- I think Jamie hit on it that what McCarthy is afraid of with this thing is that they will ask him to talk about his private conversation with Trump and then he's going to have to face up to the facts the things that he said right after January 6th and then, you know, kind of changing his story and all that.
And so, I think that's what's behind it, Don. But I want to go back to just one thing about January 6th. And I still have that image in my mind about the breaking into the capitol through that window. And there's actually some members of the congress who have said it's just a normal tourist visit.
I -- I guess they think that if they keep saying it was it never happened, it wasn't so -- the problem is, it did happen, and we know it. And it had injured our country and frankly, Don, I'm pleased to say that there are some Republicans that are not going to go along with this nonsense. And we'll going to watch --
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: Well, let me ask you this.
KASICH: -- this tomorrow.
LEMON: Let me ask you this. So, if Republicans honestly believe, if they honestly believe that this was a normal tourist day, right, that it wasn't a big deal and that there were hugs and kisses and whatever and it was all these patriots, then, and if they really don't think that Trump helped to spark this insurrection, if he led these people there then why don't want to investigate it. If they believe that it's -- they're innocent of all of this, then why not investigate it so that they could be proven correct?
KASICH: Don, they don't believe that. They don't believe that the election was stolen, they don't believe any of this nonsense.
LEMON: Yes.
KASICH: And that's what is so stunning that they would continue to say that this didn't happen, that happened, the other happened, when they know, if you were to get them a loan and ask them, do you think really the election was stolen, they would tell you no. If you were to ask privately do you -- do you realized what happened on January 6, wasn't it horrible, they would say yes.
And so, somehow, they have been able to check their conscience at the door and hopefully tomorrow there won't be that many that will check their conscience to the door and they will go and vote for this commission and we'll just figure out where it goes. But I believe these people know the reality and for some reason that's the hardest thing to understand for some reason they're not willing to act on what they know to be the truth.
LEMON: Yes.
KASICH: And it's, you know, what a lesson for our kids.
LEMON: Yes.
KASICH: What a lesson for their kids.
LEMON: John Kasich, look at that, you are the 21st guest on the Don Lemon Tonight.
KASICH: My God. Twenty. I mean, well --
(CROSSTALK) LEMON: I'm joking, I'm making up a number. Thank you, John.
KASICH: Yes. I used to be important.
LEMON: Yes.
KASICH: I sweep the streets I used to own, like cold play. You will someday, too, Don.
LEMON: A cold play. You don't even know what I'm saying. That's a whole another thing. Thank you, sir. Mr. Cold play.
KASICH: All right.
LEMON: Republicans doubling down on conspiracies and misinformation. Stunts over substance, what is it doing to our democracy? Jon Meacham weighs in. he's next.
[22:40:00]
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LEMON (on camera): The assault on truth in this country taking another wild turn as GOP Leader Kevin McCarthy tries to bring down the January 6th commission before it even gets started. This is the latest attempt to whitewash the insurrection as some Republicans outright deny the reality of what happened.
So joining me now is presidential historian Jon Meacham, the host of the podcast Fate or Fact. It's good to see you, sir. Thanks for joining.
So, it has been a little more than four months since the insurrection, the worst attack on our capitol this country has ever seen at the hands of Americans and Republicans and Democrats can't even agree on an investigation into what happened. What does that say about our democracy, Jon?
JON MEACHAM, PRESIDENTIAL HISTORIAN: That we're at an inflection point, a dangerous one. You know, the confederate army never got as far as the insurrectionists did on January 6th. There was talk about disrupting the electoral count in 1861 when Lincoln became that president, and they never got that far. They never got that far during the war when Washington was under siege, and yet what did we see? We saw a confederate flag being carried through the United States Capitol.
Fundamentally, a democracy depends on our dispositions of heart and mind, our capacity to recognize the rule of law, to lose gracefully, when in fact we do lose, and then stay within the constitutional buoys, the constitutional guard rails, pick your metaphor, and go and fight another day.
[22:44:57]
And what we're seeing now really for the first time since reconstruction, in m y opinion, is a huge chunk of the enfranchised country opting out of a reality-based world and pursuing their own vision, their own wilderness of mirrors in a way that is almost entirely about the wield of power.
It's not about prosperity. It's not about common purpose. It's not about the preservation of democracy. It's about the marshalling and maintenance of an individual party's power and place in a system that they themselves are in fact undermining.
LEMON: Do you see -- I'm asking this question because I don't know if I see this on -- I see the danger here, and I mean, real danger. I don't know if I see the urgency on the part of Democrats. I don't see the fight. Do you believe Democrats realize what they are up against right now, that this isn't just an uglier, dumber version of politics as usual, that this is a really, as you say an inflection point for our country?
If -- if people continue to, can't believe it, don't know what to believe, or their voting rights are restricted. Do you think Democrats know? And are they, are they fighting hard enough to try to preserve the republic?
MEACHAM: It's a great question. The Democrats I've talked to do understand it. I think they're in a tactical tension, which is, I think, what the administration is trying to do is deliver results in order to have a kind of infrastructure on which to defend democracy against autocracy, which we know President Biden talks about autocracy in terms of China and the Russian oligarchs.
It's also about Mar-a-Lago, right. The Republican Party which is functionally as constituted and run at the moment, has become and autocratic vehicle for a single person. So the party of Eisenhower, Reagan, the Bush's, the Nixon who went to China, you know, whatever you want to say about those folks, and there's a lot to say, they governed in coherent ways that would be recognizable to their Democrat -- their Democratic colleagues, upper case D, in real-time.
This is not that. And I think that I understand that the Democratic Party broadly put, I think is following the old Napoleonic adage which is never get in the way of an enemy when they are busy destroying themselves. The problem there which you put your finger on, is they may destroy themselves but it could also bring down the Constitution.
LEMON: Exactly.
MEACHAM: And by the way, five years ago, even three years ago, hell, maybe a year ago, I'm not sure I would have said that. But part of living in a democracy, part of using reason is having the ability to observe facts and shift your opinions if you think the facts support that. It's the entire project of the enlightenment, the entire project of the scientific revolution.
And if you want to go from the other perspective, God gave humankind brains for a reason. And that brain is supposed to be able to address reality as it presents itself and not make us prisoners of opinions that go unexamined. And I think the central question for us is, will the Constitution
itself which with stood a Civil War, with stood vicious, virulent and often violent attacks at every point, in 240, almost 250 years coming up, will that Constitution be durable when so many people have decided that they will invent a reality as opposed to react and try to change their reality.
LEMON: You've given us a lot to think about, Jon, and you also made me realize just how old I am. I was like, wait a minute, it's 50 years. I remember being in elementary school celebrating the bicentennial. Why do you have to do that, Jon Meacham?
MEACHAM: Sorry.
LEMON: Thank you, sir. It's always a please. I'll see you soon. I appreciate you joining us.
So, he has millions of listeners, so why is he complaining that he and other straight, white men aren't going to be allowed to talk any more. Yes, Joe Rogan said that. That's next.
[22:50:00]
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LEMON (on camera): Take this, everyone. Top podcast host Joe Rogan says that woke culture's end goal is to silence and confine straight white men. He said it on his podcast to millions of listeners.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOE ROGAN, HOST, THE JOE ROGAN EXPERIENCE: You can never be woke enough. That's the problem. It keeps going.
UNKNOWN: Right.
ROGAN: It keeps going further and further and further down the line. And if you get to the point where you capitulate, where you agree to all of these demands, it will eventually get to straight white men are not allowed to talk.
UNKNOWN: Right.
ROGAN: Because it's your privilege to express yourself when other people of color have been silent throughout history. It will be you're not allowed to go outside because so many people were imprisoned for so many years. I mean, I'm not joking.
UNKNOWN: No, I know, I know.
ROGAN: It really will get there.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON (on camera): OK, look. There is an important debate right now about cancel culture and wokeness, questions about what either term even means and what happens if it goes too far. There are legitimate questions about that.
[22:54:59]
But acknowledging the oppression, discrimination, or differences of others does not silence anyone else, let alone lock them up. For years now, Joe Rogan has had a massive podcasting platform, hugely influential, though he has used it at times to interview controversial figures like conspiracy nut Alex Jones, the guy infamous for saying that the Sandy Hook School shooting was a hoax.
He says a lot of things, but he also has a history of admitting when he is wrong. So last month, he weighed into this anti-vaccine narrative but later offered an explanation for his statements after the backlash. And then he just said, you know what, what I did was wrong. He did say that. In the fall he apologized after spreading misinformation about last year's West Coast fires.
So, the point is, no matter what he has said, he has not been silenced. He has a huge megaphone with millions of loyal listeners, all of whom every single day say whatever they want. Joe Rogan is part of the conversation. There's a lot, I can go on about it especially about straight white men. You're aggrieved now? OK. No one is stopping Joe Rogan or any other straight white men from expressing themselves, period.
President Biden visiting his -- visited Ford today, I should say, trying to sell his infrastructure plan, but is there even a remote chance the GOP will get on board? I'm going to ask someone who is part of the negotiations, Secretary Pete Buttigieg, next.
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