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Don Lemon Tonight

House Votes To Create January 6th Commission; U.S. Capitol Police Officer's Letter Blasts GOP Opposition To January 6th Commission; More Legal Trouble For Trump's Family Business; QAnon World Turns To AZ As Next False Hope To Overturn Election; Bank Says Debt Forgiveness For Minority Farmers Will Cost Them Money And Could Affect Future Loans; CDC: More Than 3.5 Million Children 12 To 17 Years Old Have Already Received First Dose Of COVID Vaccine. Aired 11p-12a ET

Aired May 19, 2021 - 23:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[23:00:00]

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DON LEMON, CNN HOST (on camera): Tonight, the House is voting to create a commission to investigate the deadly January 6 Capitol riot. 35 Republican voting with Democrats breaking with House GOP leaders who are against the bill. Legislation now goes to the Senate, where Republican leader Mitch McConnell opposes it.

Also tonight, sources saying that New York State Attorney General is looking into the taxes of the chief financial officer of the Trump organization.

And the battle against COVID, news on when children under 12 might be able to get the vaccine. I want to go right to CNN's Ryan Nobles, live on Capitol Hill for us. Ryan, good evening to you, good to see you. This bill now heads to the Senate, what happens there?

RYAN NOBLES, CNN WASHINGON CORRESPONDENT (on camera): Well, Don, it really faces an unlikely future. You mentioned that the Senate minority leader Mitch McConnell this morning, surprisingly came out and decided that he was against this bill after saying earlier in week that he was open to it, but wanted to see the final product was.

You know, it is a much different standard in the Senate than it is in the House, you need 10 additional Republicans to vote for the measure in order for it to pass. Now, that seemed like that was a possibility, there were quite a few Republicans senators who voted to impeach President Trump. So, you would think that they would be open to the idea of this commission looking into what happened on January 6th, but McConnell's resistance to support the bill really makes it a lot more difficult.

And we have already seen some of these moderate Republican Senators raise questions about the commission bill including Susan Collins of Maine who said, that she is open to changes to the bill, and then perhaps she would support it, but right now, it doesn't look like that is not something that is on the table. LEMON: So you heard from Susan Collins, but as you said, there are 35

House Republicans voting in favor of this bill, are you hearing anything else from any of them?

NOBLES: Yes, I mean, these House Republicans that kind of bucked their leadership were actually pleasantly surprised that a number of their colleagues that were willing to kind of take on the House minority leader Kevin McCarthy, the GOP WHIP Steve Scalise and basically say that even though this is not what the Republicans wants and even though what could endanger the Republicans in their hopes of taking back the House majority in the 2020 midterms, that it is just more important.

And you know, we had forecasted the number being on the low end and maybe 20 at the maximum being 50, so that 35 numbers is kind of right in the sweet spot. Especially when you are taking into account that Kevin McCarthy was actually phoning some of these Republicans who he thought might vote yes for the bill and begging them not to vote for it. The fact that 35 of these members were willing to buck their leadership, really demonstrates how important they think this legislation is.

LEMON: Ryan Nobles on Capitol Hill. Ryan, thank you very much. Good to see you. So joining me now is CNN's senior political analyst John Avlon, Kirsten Powers, you guys should have team music by the way. Avlon and Powers. Or Powers and Avlon, let's go with Powers and Avlon.

(LAUGHTER)

Good evening to both of you. John, I'm going to start with you, since you know, I would put her name above the title or ahead of yours. So 35 House Republicans standing up for the truth today, just 35, by today's standards that's probably a lot of Republicans, and they are doing everything they can to kill this January 6th commission. McConnell really bowing to Trump here. Does this bill stand a chance in the Senate?

JOHN AVLON, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST (on camera): It stands a chance, but it is totally disgraceful that Mitch McConnell decided to sell out to Trump over truth on this one, because he condemned him so clearly after the attack, and seems to have amnesia, but the fact that 35 members of the House, Republicans backed this bill and bucked their Party's leadership is a positive sign.

I think that the real issue would be, isn't that this is slanted or biased and it is not, and it proposes evenly divided, it was negotiated by john Katko, Republican with the Democratic colleague. The question is, if it is an issue like the vice chair does not have the ability to hire staff, as Susan Collins mentioned, that can be addressed.

[23:05:00]

But are the Republicans going to seriously filibuster this? if there's a majority, if it seven Republicans who voted to impeach, plus all the Democrats. That itself becomes a case for filibuster reform. To try to block the ability to reason together after the massive attack on our Capitol is so disgraceful that I still hope reason might prevail.

LEMON: Wow. What you said, that's is a long way down the road, John.

AVLON: Yeah, man, no, I hear you.

LEMON: I don't disagree with you, but that is a long way down the road. If seven Republicans in the Senate crossover -- that will be something. Kirsten, a group of about 30-50 members of the Capitol police sent a scathing letter to Congress today saying in part and I quote here, it is inconceivable that some the members that we protect would downplay the events of January 6th, member's safety was dependent upon the heroic actions of USPCP.

And it is a privileged assumption for members to have the point of view that it wasn't that bad. That privilege exists because of the brave men and women of the USCP protected you, the members.

So Kirsten, this is coming the same day that the FBI released new very disturbing video of rioters insulting police on that day. Are there enough senators who could be swayed by that, you think you could get more than seven, possibly 10?

KIRSTEN POWERS, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST (on camera): I think it is going to be hard and it's not a given in any way that just because they voted for impeachment that they would crossover. In fact a lot of them are expressing a lot of skepticism about it, and the fact that Mitch McConnell has been very clear about where he stands on it, you can be sure that people are going to be paying attention to that.

I think that, you know, what you just referenced about that letter is just so powerful. And you would think that just on a human level that Senators would be moved by something like that, right? That that would affect them that the people who literally risked their lives are saying to them.

And people who they always say they are aligned with, right? Blue lives matter, they always are claiming that they stand with the police, and yet look at what they are doing. They are not listening to them, and they don't seem to, and a lot of the Republicans are not listening to them, I should say.

And I do think that was a big number of Republicans crossing over, like you said go these days. But typically in the past, this would have been a no brainer, this would had been a bipartisan commission. I mean, it is not, you know, we have to put it in context that for today, yes, that is a lot of people, but typically at any other time in history, this would be bipartisan.

LEMON: Yes. And 175 others did not. Did not.

POWERS: Right.

LEMON: And John, the insurrectionists were trying to kill the former vice president. Remember this?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) (CROWD CHANTING): Hang Mike Pence. Hang Mike Pence. Hang Mike Pence.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: But Congressmen -- OK. Greg Pence, Mike Pence's own brother still one of the 175 House Republicans to oppose this commission, I mean -- what does that tell you?

AVLON: It tells you how hyper partisanship rots the brain and twists moral sense of people who ought to know better. This is not just, you know, Party over country, this is Party over family. They wanted to kill his brother. And still he can't find the stones in the spine to vote for a bipartisanship investigation. That tells you everything you need to know about the twist and set of structures in politics right now and there effect on our country.

LEMON: I would not be able to go near my family for the holidays if I did something like that, because I would be disinvited from all the cook outs and all the family gatherings for the rest of my life. Kirsten, Kevin McCarthy was ask earlier today if he is worried about being subpoenaed, if a January 6th commission is created. Here's what he told reporters, and he said, I have no concern about that, but that is somebody playing politics with it, and not wanting to get to the core of what happened.

OK, so let's be real here. Of course, he is concerned. He is the one who is playing politics, and he actually wanted to get to the core of what happened, he would support a commission, because that's what investigation do, they get to the core of what happened. I mean, he's taking a page from the Trump playbook here.

POWERS: Yes, well, look, Liz Cheney has said that he should be concerned about being subpoenaed, so you know, I am sure that he is absolutely concerned about it. And you know, I think that the Republicans obviously do not see a commission being in their political interests, and that is the reason that they are, you know, largely not supporting this.

And that tells us everything that we need to know, and why would it not be in your political interest to have this investigated, because it is going to remind people about how complicit the Republican Party is in supporting the president who, you know, incited this.

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And so they are putting their politics which look is Washington, I am not surprised when people are you know, being political, but there are sometimes in our history where parties do come together over very serious events, you know, that happen to the entire country, and this would be one. Like I said, typically this would be one where the parties would come together.

LEMON: Their grand kids and their great grand kids are going to read about it in the history book, and they are going to say, is that my -- are you related to McCarthy? And the kids is going to be like, nope, don't know him. (LAUGHTER)

Thank you.

AVLON: For real.

LEMON: Yes. And that is the truth. Thank you, both. I appreciate it. Joining me now is Ambassador Tim Roemer, he is a former Democratic member of Congress and a former member of the 9/11 commissioner. Ambassador, I'm so grateful to have you here.

Thank you for joining. First, I got to get your reaction to the Republican minority leaders in the House, and the Senate both advocating against the commission to investigate the Capitol insurrection, are they putting as our last guest said Party over country?

AMB. TIM ROEMER, FORMER MEMBER OF 9/11 COMMISSION: Well Don, first of all thank you for having me, nice to be on your show. I think, Don, with this is all about, it's not about right or left, it's about right or wrong. It is not about Democrats or Republicans, it's about our Capitol, our sacred Capitol and our constitution. It is not about talking points, it is about seeking the truth.

And the House of Representatives, I thought we had a very strong showing of truth today. 252 votes, to 175. That's not even close, 35 Republican split with a WHIP organization in the House, to try to get them to go the other way. They voted on a bipartisan bill between Benny Thompson from Mississippi a Democrat, and a moderate Republican from New York. This shows momentum going to the United States Senate.

I disagree with some of your analyst. I'm a big westerner. I'm optimistic about the country, I think the Senate can work in this instance. And I think will come up with 10 votes to get this bipartisan activation created.

LEMON: That was my next question, why do you think that? Just because of everything you said, or you want to go deeper?

ROEMER: Well, I've talked to some of the staff and some of the Senators, talked to a ton of House members and Republicans. I think there's a conscience there, Don that people are worried about our government being attacked. This reminds us of what a lot of people of the terrorist attack on 9/11.

We don't have foreign terrorist this time. These were Americans, killing Americans. Attacking our law enforcement, threatening the vice president, threatening the speaker. Chasing custodians and staffers around the Capitol with flags and sharp objects, and threatening to spray and kill them.

This is a serious attack on our government and our freedom, in our law enforcement community. I think we're going to come together on this. And, Don what are the options? The president of the United States, a Democrat, could create a commission, did the Republicans want that? The Speaker of the House could create a select committee, do they want

that? Or do they want to do this process where by Senator Collins might say, let's change a little bit of the vice chair, having more say on staff, let's change the date a little bit. We can do those things, Republican Senators have every right to weigh in and try to change parts of the House bill.

LEMON: Yes. Listen, I don't disagree with you that this is about right versus wrong, but it is the Republican Party. At least in the Senate if this doesn't go through that will have -- the Party that would have stopped this from going through.

And the reason that I say that is because, without understanding exactly what happened that day and holding people accountable, Ambassador. Are we looking at the possibility of every four years, people questioning the legitimacy of an election if they don't win?

ROEMER: Don, that is precisely the question. We had a fair and free election, we had more voters than at any time since 1900. We had Republicans standing up to fight against President Trump in Georgia, to insist that the vote count was fair. We cannot ever have our fair, constitutional process, which was taking place in the Capitol when this mob, this assault attacked our peaceful process. Our transfer of government, we cannot have this in 2022, we cannot have this in 2024.

And if you remember, Don, the Chinese came to negotiate with the United States in Alaska, over a month ago. One of the things they lead with, to attack America before the negotiations at an open session was America is divided, they can't govern anymore. They're not a global power anymore.

[23:15:15]

I think that should unite some Republicans to vote for an independent thorough commission on the Senate side so that we get to the bottom of what happened, we seek truth, we seek justice in this opportunity. And we never let this happen to our people, our Capitol and our constitution again. I'm hopeful, Don, I'm skeptical but I'm hopeful.

LEMON: I feel you, I can't disagree with you. I feel the same way. Skeptical, but hopeful. Because what else, we have to be, we have to keep moving the culture in the country in the right direction so we must be hopeful about that. Thank you ambassador, a pleasure to have you on, I'll see you soon.

ROEMER: Thank, you Don, all the best to you.

LEMON: Thank you, you as well. More legal trouble tonight for the former president's family business, why New York's Attorney General is looking at the taxes of Trump's, Trump Org, excuse me, CEO -- CFO.

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LEMON: New tonight, the New York Attorney General's office is opened a criminal tax investigation into the Trump organization's top official, excuse me, at the Trump organization. Sources tell CNN that prosecutors are seeking to find leverage that could sway CFO, Allen Weisselberg into cooperating with authorities. It was only last night, the New York Attorney General's Office announced it was joining the Manhattan district attorney's office in a criminal investigation into the Trump organization.

What will it mean for the former president? Let's discuss now. Jennifer Rodgers is the former assistant U.S. attorney in the Southern District of New York. Good evening Jennifer, a lot of attorneys and Attorney Generals, to get through here.

So help us with this, Allen Weisselberg, we've talked about him a lot on this program, and he's been talked about a lot in the news. He's handled the Trump organization finances for 40 years, a legal pressure is now mounting for him, from both the Attorney General's Office and the district attorney. What will it mean for Trump, if prosecutors are successful in getting him to cooperate with authorities?

JENNIFER RODGERS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST, FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR: Well Don, if they succeed in getting Allen Weisselberg to flip that will be enormous. He's been there forever as you said, he's the CFO. He knows all the finances inside and out. Knows where all the bodies are buried as they say. So, it would be huge, although honestly I'm not optimistic, they've been going after Weisselberg for years now.

I mean, the Southern District, when they're investigating the Stormy Daniels payments, where they ultimately convicted Michael Cohen. They had to offer Weisselberg immunity to talk about that. So, he's been under pressure for a long time. I'm just not sure they're going to be able to get there, but we'll see.

LEMON: Yes. When the New York Attorney General's Office and grilled Eric Trump in October, the investigation was civil. And it has been underway since 2019. Now it has become criminal. That was breaking news last night. What could have pushed for this change, what happened?

RODGERS: Well, you know, these investigations often start on the civil side of the Attorney General's Office, they have both criminal and civil jurisdiction. But a huge part of the work is on the civil side. So, they often start things on that side of the house.

You know, they do their discovery, do their investigation and then if they determine that they're finding evidence that dictates there should be a criminal matter, if it's serious enough, the wrongdoing is serious enough and that meets all of the legal requirements. Then they take it criminal.

So, that appears to be what happened here, the wrinkle of course is that they also have now joined forces with the Manhattan's D.A. office so that their investigating criminally together. That part is very rare.

LEMON: So, what kind of evidence could they have if they're joining forces? RODGERS: Well, they've been doing the civil investigations. So they

will take depositions, they will have reviewed hundreds of thousands if not millions of documents from the Trump organization. Had spoken to witnesses, with all of that sort of evidence. And so they will have a really good sense of what the Trump organization looks like, in terms of how it runs, in terms as its finances.

And so, as they do that, as they try to figure out whether the Trump organization is breaking the law in a way that ought to be handled on the civil side, on the regulatory side, you know, they are collecting evidence.

And if it appears to them that it's a serious enough matter, and that it actually wants criminal prosecution, then that's when they kind of kick it over to the other side. But the evidence isn't that different frankly. It's just evidence of wrongdoing, its problems with the books and evidence of intent to commit tax fraud or bank fraud or whatever the case may be.

LEMON: So, this is Trump org, you know, which is run by his children, right? But how harmful is this development for Trump personally, and his family, and the Trump organization, all of it?

RODGERS: Well, it depends, because you know, he was running it up until the time that he became president, and it maybe that some of the practices that were emplace, that were continued into the statute of limitations period were actually started by him. And we don't know yet, what if anything is going to be charged.

You know, they could charge the corporation itself. They could charge the former president personally, if they find evidence to that effect. They could charge Eric Trump, Don Jr., we're just not certain, you know, what the evidence of course will show. But it could be against the corporation, or against individuals if they have the proof.

LEMON: The Manhattan D.A. Cy Vance will be leaving office at the end of the year, can we expect this case to be wrapped up by then, Jennifer?

RODGERS: Yes, yes I think so. I'm hearing actually probably in the summer, but it seems pretty clear that Cy Vance having done all of this work, and progressed that this far wants to take that final step. And either charged it, or decide not to charge it before he goes. So, you know, I think we are up and up.

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LEMON: So this will come to a head, this summer?

RODGERS: Yes, that's what I'm hearing. Certainly this year. But I'm even hearing the, summer (inaudible) talking with that earlier today.

LEMON: Thank you very much, Jennifer Rodgers, I appreciate it.

It's a conspiracy theory on top of a conspiracy theory. The QAnon world, now turning their sights to another bogus charade, the sham audit in Arizona.

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LEMON: QAnon supporters now focusing their attention on the sham audit of votes in Maricopa County Arizona. Some local Republican officials admitting that this audit is pointless, but others are pushing insane conspiracies theories.

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LEMON (on camera): Here is what Maricopa County recorder Stephen Richer told me just last night.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

STEPHEN RICHER, MARICOPA COUNTY RECORDER: The craziest conspiracy theory by far is that one of the Board of Supervisors, who happens to own a very large chicken farm, took ballots from the 2020 election, fed them to 165,000 chickens, and then had them incinerated. Now, what actually happened is that this poor man had a serious fire at one of his barns and 165,000 chickens did die. But the idea that they had ballots inside of them -- I mean, you know, and people -- legitimate people indulge this.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON (on camera): CNN's Donie O'Sullivan joins me now. Hi, Donie. Boy, oh boy. So, let's talk. Why is this audit in Arizona getting so much attention in the QAnon world?

DONIE O'SULLIVAN, CNN REPORTER (on camera): Well, if you think about it, this audit is a conspiracy theory coming to life in some way, right, because this audit wouldn't be happening if people weren't trying to prove that the big lie was true in some way.

So really, you know, this is what the conspiracy theorists is, what the QAnon folks have been wanting to see is exactly like this, an audit like you heard there with all this ridiculous stuff going around. But I want you to take a listen to MyPillow CEO Mike Lindell.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNKNOWN: How key is the successful outcome in Arizona to the case that you are making?

MIKE LINDELL, CEO, MYPILLOW: It is huge. It is huge because that is going to be -- then you have the smoking gun, you have a state going -- you have -- you have not just all the proof we have, but you have an example of the proof.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

O'SULLIVAN (on camera): Look, Don, look, a lot of this stuff is just obviously really, really dumb. Like you heard there with the chicken stuff, but, you know, we have seen unfortunately how, you know, in that period between November, December right up until the 6th of January, this is start of B.S. we are hearing and this was the start of thing that led to the insurrection. So, unfortunately, it can't be ignored.

LEMON: Yeah. You know, Donie, Twitter banned major QAnon accounts just a few days after the insurrection. Check out the impact here. In the first quarter of this year, QAnon hashtags were used 78,000 times down from eight -- excuse me, 4.8 million times in the first quarter of 2020. That is according to a BBC analysis.

Does this show social media platforms can crack down on disinformation if they actually want to, and by deplatforming some people, it cuts down on disinformation?

O'SULLIVAN: It definitely has an impact. I think what those numbers really show is that QAnon was growing exponentially last year and really these platforms are negligent in that they allowed this to fester throughout the pandemic.

I mean, these platforms only really started doing anything about it over the summer. Even YouTube didn't do anything about it until I think a few weeks before the election.

I remember going to Trump rallies in September and speaking to vendors selling merchandise outside those events and saying there was an explosion in demand for QAnon merchandise.

LEMON: I remember.

O'SULLIVAN: So, all of this was happening, and as you can see there, had maybe the platforms acted sooner, you know, possibly a lot of this could have been avoided. It is worth pointing out that even though those numbers seem pretty low now, people have figured out ways to get around them using new terms and of course now using different platforms as well.

LEMON: Oh, well, that said then. Without these major Twitter accounts, will QAnon find other ways to have an impact on the 2020 -- 2022 midterms?

O'SULLIVAN: Oh, I think you'll probably going to see some Republican candidates, right, who are running essentially on the QAnon platform, particularly maybe the candidates who are seeking to unseat perceived anti-Trump Republicans like whoever goes up against Liz Cheney in Wyoming and elsewhere.

So, I think you're going to see essentially candidates bleeding into the midterms and candidates running on the QAnon platform for the -- for the QAnon caucus.

LEMON: Donie, we love seeing you out in the field doing your work and we love seeing you all dressed up in a tie in a studio doing this as well.

O'SULLIVAN: Thank you, Don.

LEMON: Thank you. Thank you very much, Donie. Four billion dollars in debt relief for Black farmers getting a lot of pushback despite decades of financial discrimination. The reason for the hold-up? Banks say it would cut into their profits.

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LEMON: Billions set aside in the American Rescue Plan for Black farmers designed to end a cycle of debt and discrimination now in limbo. There are $5 billion total, $4 billion to be used to relieve outstanding debt of Black farmers. But banks say they don't want the debt paid off right away because it will cut into their profits.

A letter from three of the biggest U.S. banking groups to the Agriculture Department saying this: USSA should ensure lenders are made whole by being compensated for lost income due to these loan payoffs.

Here to talk about what this means for Black farmers, John Boyd, Jr., the founder and president of The National Black Farmers Association. John, welcome back. Thank you for speaking up about this issue. We appreciate you joining us.

[23:40:00]

LEMON: What do you think? Do these banks still want to be able to profit off of your debts even though you are entitled to have them paid off?

JOHN BOYD, JR., FOUNDER AND PRESIDENT, NATIONAL BLACK FARMERS ASSOCIATION: Well, first of all, Don, thank you for having me. You know, this is a national disgrace. Here is the banking industry that was bailed out by American people, tax paying citizens just like me and you, writing the secretary of agriculture, you know, bad mouthing here Black farmers and farmers of color.

So here we are after 30 years of trying to get that relief, you know, through an act of Congress. We are finally able to be successful to do that. Thank for Warnock, Booker and others who really led the way on that.

And now we have to fight the banking industry. These are people who should be lending money to Black farmers fairly and equally. Instead, they are writing and complaining about how much more money they are going to make.

What about the Black farmers, who were foreclosed on it and suffered, many of the Black farmers who were not lent money by these -- by the top 10 banks in this country?

I have been raising this issue with the OCC and the Federal Reserve for a very long time, Don, about the lack of loans to Black farmers. There is not that many guaranteed loans in the first place. They should be doing a whole lot more.

But instead of trying to help us here, they are speaking out against us. And Don, never have I had a bank on a support letter for lobbying Congress all of these years. They never say, John Boyd, how can I help you end discrimination at the Department of Agriculture? How can we help increase loans? But they quickly sent this letter to the Department of Agriculture secretary.

LEMON: Yeah. John, the bank association says that if lenders are not compensated for potential losses, there may be less access to loans for socially disadvantaged farmers in the future. Are you worried about that?

BOYD: That is a threat. Don, that is a threat. So here we are not getting the loans from the agriculture department because if we were, we would be getting direct loans and not guaranteed loans.

LEMON: Mm-hmm.

BOYD: And here now the banking system, the very people who should be extending credit fairly and equally in this country, now threatening Black farmers by saying, you know, if you get this debt relief, you know, we are not going to lend any more money to the Black farmers. They need to be held accountable.

Today, I reached out to Representative Waters's office, the Financial Services Committee, and I asked them to take a strong look at these letters and bring these people before the committee so that the members of Congress can ask them what is going on here, why are you picking on the Black farmers, instead of trying help them, you are trying to hurt them here.

LEMON: Yeah. Well, let's talk about what is happening on the ground with you. What is the status of this relief? Have farmers that you work with seeing any money?

BOYD: We haven't got the money, and I have been urging Secretary Vilsack to move swiftly and quickly to get debt relief to Black farmers and farmers of color.

LEMON: You need it for planting season, right?

BOYD: It is planting season. We need the money now. And we have everybody who is against this measure, you know, to come out and speak out against it. And, you know, after working on for so very long, the agriculture department says they have to listen and learn. That is the wrong thing to say to Black farmers at planting season.

If the secretary is watching this, Mr. Secretary, I'm urging you to get the debt relief out to Black farmers quickly, set up the process so we can get technical assistance and outreach and work with those farmers who have been discriminated against. That is what the bill says.

And, you know, when they foreclose on Black farmer, they do it within 30 days. You get a demand, no, Don, you don't have all of the money that you (INAUDIBLE) the government, we are going to sell your farm in 30 days.

LEMON: Yeah.

BOYD: They should be able to (INAUDIBLE) debt relief to Black farmers and farmers of color within 30 days (INAUDIBLE).

LEMON (on camera): John, a group of white farmers had sued the USDA over the relief, arguing discrimination. I just want to play what the agriculture secretary, Tom Vilsack, said about it. Here it is.

BOYD: OK.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TOM VILSACK, UNITED STATES SECRETARY OF AGRICULTURE: I think I have to take you back 20, 30 years when we know for a fact that socially disadvantaged producers were discriminated against by the United States Department of Agriculture. We know this. We have reimbursed people in the past for those acts of discrimination, but we've never absolutely dealt with the cumulative effect.

When you look at the COVID relief packages that have been passed and distributed by USDA prior to the American Rescue Plan, and you take a look at who disproportionately received the benefits of those COVID payments, it is pretty clear that white farmers did pretty well.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON (on camera): So he says the money designed for the social disadvantaged farmers is to deal with the cumulative effects of discrimination. What do you say to white farmers who find that unfair?

BOYD: Well, I will tell you, how many times can you get paid here, Don? That is what I am saying to the Americans.

[23:45:00]

BOYD: White farmers have gotten 99 percent of all of the moneys at the United States Department of Agriculture since the 90s. Half trillion dollars have been paid in subsidies to primarily white farmers in this country.

This year, 0.5 percent went to Black farmers. Eight out of 10 loan applications in the state of Texas and the other denied by the United States Department of Agriculture to Black farmers. We still have some serious issues here at the United States Department of Agriculture. And then white farmers are saying they don't want us to have the debt relief either.

They need to take a look at history when they say this -- it is reverse discrimination or is not fair. Take a look at history. You still loan a land from Indians. You still loan a land from Blacks. They are slaved Blacks. We've been sharecroppers. We survived Jim Crow. It is time for Blacks and others to get some relief from the federal government, Don.

LEMON: John Boyd, Jr., we will continue to follow this story, and we thank you for appearing on the program. Thanks so much.

BOYD: Thank you, Don, for having me.

LEMON: We will be right back.

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[23:50:00]

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LEMON: Good news tonight in the battle against COVID-19. The head of the CDC is saying more than 3.5 million American children ages 12 to 17 have already received their first dose of the vaccine. The city of Seattle, for example, already administering the vaccine to kids 12 and up on site at public schools.

I want to bring in now Dr. Dimitri Christakis. He is the director of the Center for Child Health, Behavior and Development at Seattle Children's Hospital. He is also the editor-in-chief of JAMA Pediatrics, an important guy. Thank you for joining us, sir. I'm glad you're here.

So, for the fully vaccinated, the CDC's latest guidance on masks, great news. But for parents of kids who are -- who are too young to be vaccinated, there is concern and there is confusion as well. What are you telling the parents you talk to? What are you telling them to do?

DIMITRI CHRISTAKIS, DIRECTOR OF THE CENTER FOR CHILD HEALTH, BEHAVIOR AND DEVELOPMENT AT SEATTLE CHILDREN'S HOSPITAL, EDITOR-IN-CHIEF OF JAMA PEDIATRICS: Well, you know, I agree the CDC guidelines are giving us all a little bit of whiplash. Understandably, the science is changing. But -- but it's -- it's hard to square them. It seems a little bit, at times, like Pretzel logic.

Let me lay it out the way I see it, and I think it's quite simple. I think for children 12 and older, there is a vaccine and thankfully, and I'm gratified to hear that so many children are availing themselves of it. And once they are vaccinated, they should have all of the benefits that are currently being accrued to adults, right? They should also be able to not have to mask outside, inside, et cetera.

But for younger children for whom the vaccine is not available right now, here is the way I see it. They shouldn't have to wear masks outside. We know that the virus is not transmitted outside now very readily. We also know that young children are less prone to transmit it, anyway.

I think that they shouldn't have to wear masks around known-vaccinated people indoors, whether it's their family or their friends. If their parents can be assured that the people that they're around are vaccinated, everyone can unmask.

LEMON: OK. Well, let me take you through some situations.

CHRISTAKIS: Go ahead.

LEMON: So the one you are talking about, so two families, you are saying two families, vaccinated adults, unvaccinated kids, they can get together and let their kids play outdoors without masks, correct? Is that what you just said?

CHRISTAKIS: Oh, I think -- I think all children should be able to play outdoors unmask at this point.

LEMON: OK.

CHRISTAKIS: But I'm talking about indoors.

LEMON: Indoors, though, they should be masked?

CHRISTAKIS: I'm sorry, what did you say?

LEMON: Indoors, should children be masked?

CHRISTAKIS: I think they should be masked indoors if they are under 12, unvaccinated, and they are around people of unknown vaccination status. And why do I say that? I say that because there are people that are unvaccinated who are -- are at risk and children can't transmit the virus.

And so, it's the -- it's the decent thing to do. And I think parents of young children who are -- who need to mask in those situations should also mask to set a good example for them.

LEMON: Where do you stand on vaccines for kids under 12? How soon can we expect them?

CHRISTAKIS: So, I think that from what I'm reading, it will likely be approved under emergency use authorization in the fall. But I want to say this and it's really an important point. The younger the children are, the less risk they have from the disease. They -- they can still spread it but they are at lower risk for disease. We need to trust the science and make sure that it's safe for them to get it.

LEMON: Today, Utah's house passed a bill that will prohibit its public schools and universities requiring mask mandates after the end of the school year. Are we at that -- this point yet? I know you want to talk about schools overall, so go, what do you have to say?

CHRISTAKIS: I think prohibiting masks is -- is regressive and frankly political. I don't -- I don't understand why -- why anyone would do that. It -- it should be viewed at the end of the day as a personal choice that people make. It took us a long time to get used to masks. It's going to take us a long time to get unused to them.

And -- and -- and no one knows anybody's individual story, what challenges they're dealing with, who might be at home that they're worried about infecting, what their own personal risks are.

[23:55:05] CHRISTAKIS: But I -- I -- I think that, you know, the real role that schools can play, whether it's primary school, secondary schools or colleges, is what's started in Seattle, which is making schools sites for vaccination. Seattle didn't open their schools early enough and I have been very critical of them for that. But making them a site for vaccination is really a good thing.

Those of us that promote equity and inclusion frequently say we need to bring more people to the table. But better yet bring the table to more people and vaccinating in schools does that. It makes it easier for families to get their children vaccinated. Schools are accessible. They're in neighborhoods. People know where they are. They trust them. We should be doing more of that. Not just for kids but for adults.

LEMON: For everybody, yeah. Doctor, you are always knowledgeable. We learn so much from you. Thank you.

CHRISTAKIS: My pleasure. Take care.

LEMON: And thank you for watching, everyone. Our coverage continues.

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