Return to Transcripts main page

Don Lemon Tonight

"Washington Post:" Grand Jury Convened In Trump Criminal Investigation; GOP Condemns Rep. Greene's Holocaust Remarks; Biden's Hopes For Bipartisanship Face Make Or Break Moment; George Floyd's Family Pushes For Police Reform Bill; Biden Administration Shut Down Secretive Effort By Trump Administration Seeking To Prove COVID Originated In A Chinese Lab; 'Defund The Police' Faces Resistance As Violent Crime Spikes. Aired 11p-12a ET

Aired May 25, 2021 - 23:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[23:00:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DON LEMON, CNN HOST (on camera): Here's what we're learning tonight, the Manhattan district attorney has convened a grand jury in its criminal investigation of the Trump organization. According to the Washington Post, the grand jury is expected to consider whether to indict the former president, Trump org executives or the company itself.

It took five days, but House GOP leaders finally condemning Congresswoman Marjorie Taylor Greene for comparing rules requiring that masks be worn in Congress to the holocaust.

And tonight, growing calls from heavy hitters like Dr. Fauci to investigate the origins of the coronavirus to determine if it occurred naturally or if it leaked out of a laboratory in China.

I want to bring in now CNN's legal analysts, Carrie Cordero and Elie Honig. Good evening to both of you. Good so see you. Elie, I'm going to start with you, the Manhattan D.A. is convening this grand jury according to the post. What does this tell you about his investigation into Trump and his company? Has he found evidence of a crime?

ELIE HONIG, CNN LEGAL ANALYST (on camera): I think the short answer is yes, Don, some evidence. This is obviously significant. This is important. If Donald Trump is to be indicted, and that's far from certain at this point, but if he is, these are the everyday women and men on this grand jury who will return the indictment.

However, this is not extraordinary. This is not a shocker. This is, in fact, exactly what you would expect to see in the normal progress of a criminal case if you, as a prosecutor, believe that your case was productive, that you have found enough that you had to good-faith basis to go in there and impanel a grand jury.

Ultimately, a lot of this will sit in the prosecutor's hands. I know -- the grand jury will technically vote. But there is the old adage that a prosecutor can get a ham sandwich indicted in the grand jury. There is some truth to that. The burden is quite low. These prosecutors need to make sure they have more than that though. They need to make sure they have more than probable cause, which is the standard in the grand jury, if they are going to seek an indictment of Donald Trump.

LEMON: Carrie, we know that Cy Vance has Trump's tax returns and that he has been looking into Trump-owned properties and what kind of charges, I wonder, could the former president and the associates be facing if Cy Vance is looking into all of that?

CARRIE CORDERO, CNN LEGAL ANALYST (on camera): Well, based on the reporting so far, it seems like all of the investigation is focused on things that would fall under the umbrella of financial crimes and fraud. I think fraud is sort of the big word. Was there different types of fraud, financial fraud, miss filing or fraudulently filing business records, tax issues, misrepresenting the value of assets.

Everything that falls into the big fraud category seems to be the types of things that they are looking at. And what that means is that a significant part of this case that prosecutors are building is a documents case. So the records that they obtained are important, and other -- all the documents that they have, the digital documents that they have, all of that is going to be the basis for being able to determine whether there are financial crimes that they have a provable case.

LEMON: Usually, when, you know, you guys are very experienced with this. Your resumes speak for themselves. Carrie, what is your gut tell you when you see, with the information, the evidence and where this case is going?

CORDERO: Well, on one hand, I don't think we, the public, obviously, know what the prosecutors know. So, it's difficult to be able to judge evidence that we haven't seen. I do worrisome, Don, that there is a real risk with this prosecution because this is a former president.

So far, federal authorities seem so have passed on making any kind of financial fraud case, and so this is up to the state attorneys, the Manhattan D.A.'s office, that are taking on an investigation of a former president, his family, his business associates and his company.

And so there is a real risk that their actions, if they really don't have a good basis for taking these next investigative steps, that they will contribute to an environment where people view law enforcement and prosecutions as a tool of political retribution.

[23:05:12]

So, I just think that the stakes are much higher in this case for the prosecutors to really do their job well.

LEMON: Same question, Elie.

HONIG: Yes. Don, I share some of Carrie's skepticism here. My gut tells me that this will rise or fall on one person, Allen Weisselberg. If prosecutors can flip Allen Weisselberg, and remember this grand jury can charge anybody. It doesn't just have to be Donald Trump. They could charge perhaps the Trump children, they can charge Allen Weisselberg. They are going to need Allen Weisselberg, I believe, to come over and cooperate so he can walk them through the financial transactions.

And so he can tell them what Donald Trump knew, what Donald Trump authorized. Because if you don't have Allen Weisselberg, it's going to be a really tough case to make for the exact reasons Carrie just laid out.

LEMON: Thank you both. I appreciate it. That's the legal part of it. I want to bring in now CNN political commentator, Amanda Carpenter and senior political analyst, Kirsten Powers. She's talking about the political part of it.

Amanda, you heard -- good evening to both of you. You heard what Carrie and Elie just said. Carrie said, you know, I am a bit concerned about that this may move into the political realm more than the legal realm, that they are using a political process to try to get a former president or his family. What do you think of that?

AMANDA CARPENTER, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR, FORMER COMMUNICATIONS DIRECTOR FOR SENATOR TED CRUZ AND THE AUTHOR OF GASLIGHTING AMERICA (on camera): Yes, I mean, I think there are concerns. You know that Donald Trump is going to try this in the court of public opinion, say, here they go again.

And I do think there is a large degree of public fatigue. I mean, we have gone through the Mueller investigation, we have gone through impeachment one, impeachment two, we are going to have this, we are going to have the -- you know, other New York investigation. We are going to have the Georgia investigation.

And so I just -- I can only hope that they will maintain the utmost degree of professionalism because this will be incredibly hard not to get drug into. And I see some criticism for the left for apparently the Biden administration's reluctance to get involved.

I think that's the best thing that Joe Biden can do. Let this play out with the investigators who are handling it in a professional, discrete way. The facts will go where we need them to go and we'll find out everything when we need to find it out. Have some patience.

LEMON: Kirsten, let's talk more about -- let's talk about the Republican Party here and the leadership. Taking five days to condemn Marjorie Taylor Greene's anti-Semitism and Kevin McCarthy couldn't call her comments appalling, he had to make claims about anti-Semitism and Democrats, is he condemning her and minimizing the comments all in the same breath?

KIRSTEN POWERS, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST (on camera): Yes. You know, the Republican Party doesn't seem to be able to just take responsibility. Whenever you are calling something out or apologizing or doing anything like that, you are not supposed to start pointing fingers at other people. And frankly, there is nobody that even comes close to the way Marjorie Taylor Greene behaves. So for him to suggest, you know, I think he is maybe suggesting that

remarks that were made by Ilhan Omar or somehow in this league when, a, they are not, and b, she apologized for them. Marjorie Taylor Greene, on the other hand, not only has not apologized. She has gone on Twitter and sort of doubled down on everything that she said and is portraying herself as a victim and even trying to pretend that she didn't really say what everybody heard her say.

So, look, I think Kevin McCarthy thinks obviously that the only way he's going to win the House back is with Donald Trump behind him and he doesn't want to do anything to upset Donald Trump.

And Donald Trump likes Marjorie Taylor Greene and so apparently she gets to do whatever she wants, you know, until at least according to CNN's reporting they start hearing from donors and members of Congress saying this is not going to fly and then he gives this kind of ridiculous calling her out and then pointing fingers at the Democrats. But he is not really doing anything about it.

LEMON: Yes. Amanda, Republican sources tells CNN that GOP donors, House members as well urged McCarthy to condemn Greene. They don't think much else is going to happen to her. I'm saying this and I quote, Donald Trump likes her. He supports her and Kevin doesn't want to upset Trump. I mean --

POWERS: Yes.

LEMON: That's like really -- that' not even a leader if you are following that, if that's what you are doing.

CARPENTER: No. Kevin McCarthy is a political wind sock. He will flip on every issue to appease whoever, you know, is treating him well at that particular moment in time. This isn't going to get better. This isn't the only incident Marjorie Taylor Greene has. I mean what do you want? Anti-Semitism, 9/11 trutherism, Sandy Hook fake flag, hoax, what you want. The whole internet archive of this that is completely deranged.

I mean, she was stocking and harassing a parkland survivor on Capitol Hill. This isn't going to end with just this remark. But she has political power because Republican leaders like Kevin McCarthy and Mitch McConnell have decided they can't win without the Trump coalition.

[23:10:13]

LEMON: Does she have political power?

CARPENTER: Yes.

LEMON: Is it just like --

CARPENTER: Yes, yes, let me explain. Try to picture Mitch McConnell going to a Trump rally and revving up that base. He would get booed off stage faster than Kelly Loeffler did. She came to a stage in Georgia and they said, we are going to destroy the GOP, because you weren't fighting hard enough to steal the election for Trump. They need Marjorie Taylor Greene because they decided that that Capitol Hill -- storm the Capitol brigade is their base that they can't afford to alienate.

And so, I don't expect a lot of action. Because they knew all of this about her the whole time. It's on the internet. You can go find it. And so unless enough donors revolt to make them pay a price, as long as, you know, Donald Trump is the Republican leader of the Party that they cannot afford to alienate, expect to hear more from NGT.

LEMON: It's just shocking, the embodiment of, like, you know, an internet troll coming to life and then being elected to Congress.

CARPENTER: That's what it is.

LEMON: It's like, if her name was Karen, it would just be, you know, 100 percent perfect. So, Kirsten, also tonight Senators Manchin and Sinema are pleading with Republicans to vote for the January 6th commission.

Those are Democratic Senators oppose getting rid of the filibuster and they've got to know that is not going to look good or help the argument for keeping it where Republicans even filibuster -- creating a bipartisan commission to look into one of the darkest days in our history. I mean, there is some big stakes at play.

POWERS: Yes. Look, it's just -- it's not -- it's not defensible to be opposing something like this. It's clearly for political reasons. It's just -- it's the kind of thing and I have said this before, but it needs to be repeated over and over, that pre-Trump would be unimaginable. And we have to kind of stay tethered to that time and remember that, like, just how off the rails things really are and how off the rails the Republican Party really has gone.

That, yes, Democrats and Republicans have always, you know, sort of been at odds, but there were times and there are things that brought them together. And what happened on January 6th would have been the type of thing in the past that would bring people together, and indeed it did right after, right? And then they, you know, changed course and now are basically just not interested in the most basic fundamental responsibility that they have.

LEMON: Now, one of you --

CARPENTER: He, Don, I have got to say, just because we do need unity so desperately on this issue, even if the Senate tanks this through the filibuster, I really hope and pray that Nancy Pelosi finds a way to get House Republicans like Liz Cheney, Adam Kinzinger, anybody that wants to help on a select commission, committee, please, please get them involved because she has to show -- we all need to see some Republicans do the right thing.

And she passed on the opportunity to make an (inaudible), an impeachment manager through the last impeachment. Please don't do that again. Get them involved. We need it.

LEMON: Yes. Who read the freight train?

CARPENTER: Probably me.

LEMON: You took me back to my childhood in the middle of the night. That's my sleep karma right there. You get a freight train, I'm out like a light. Thank you both. (Inaudible) I appreciate it.

I want to bring in now presidential historian Douglas Brinkley. Doug, good evening to you. No freight trains here in the studio. So, that's good. Let's talk about the White House because they need to work with this Party. They believe. Two huge pieces of Biden's agenda.

The George Floyd justice in policing act and his infrastructure bill. Both stalled in Congress as negotiators try to cut deals. Could we be seeing the last chance for a Biden's hope for bipartisanship here?

DOUGLAS BRINKLEY, CNN PRESIDENTIAL HISTORIAN (on camera): I think it's getting very close to that, Don. You know, Joe Biden ran as a uniter. He was going to pull the country together. And I think after January 6th the assumption was the Republican Party would turn on Trump, you know, admit that it was an insurrection and kind of mend their ways, but, alas, it's still the Party of Donald Trump.

Mitch McConnell doesn't want to do business with Biden. They are just eating up precious clock. We are heading into Memorial Day weekend and there is nothing concrete on the table. So Biden's probably, he has to start stepping up and going alone. He's tried to do it, I mean, with the Democrats. He went from $2 trillion for his economic jobs recovery package, then down to 1.7.

He can't keep going in that direction. At one point this might have to be an all-Democratic jobs recovery package, and there have to reap the consequences that have like Obama did when he had to do the affordable care act on his own.

[23:15:05]

LEMON: I am glad you mentioned the former president, because you know, remember when he first got elected Mitch McConnell said his number one priority was to make him a one-term president, right? Susan Rice was there. I hope you heard my interview with -- she is now an advisor to the current president Joe Biden.

They are insisting that they are going to keep trying for bipartisanship, but behind the scenes they must know what they are up against and they have got to know. They've got to know, Douglas. In January everyone said the Republicans are never going to work with you. No. February. March. April. Here we are in May. It's almost June.

They are never going to work with him. I know everyone says he is like, oh, that's a great quality of Joe Biden, bipartisanship. It ain't going to happen. It's not going to happen. It wasn't going to happen 12 years ago or with Obama. It's not going to happen now. Why do they keep trying? It's an exercise in futility.

BRINKLEY: I think Biden sees himself as a deal maker. He has all that Senate --

LEMON: It's not going to happen.

BRINKLEY: I agree with --

LEMON: It's never going to happen.

BRINKLEY: I don't think --

Yes. And I think that's where Biden's hitting his Rubicon. He is going to go to this trip to Europe, come back, and I think he has got to step up. And Don, realize, Bernie Sanders and Chuck Schumer and Nancy Pelosi are ready to go it alone with the Democratic Party if need be. They made one big offer here to the Republicans. The Republicans blew it off.

I wouldn't keep whittling downward. Things happen. The summer -- we might have wildfires and then hurricanes. Get this done. Be known as the infrastructure president. Get your big package done and do it with straight Democratic votes. That's the smart thing to do in history.

LEMON: I think it would be, you know, I would understand it more if the Republican Party was living in reality at this point.

BRINKLEY: Yep.

LEMON: Quite simply, honestly --

(CROSSTALK)

BRINKLEY: They aren't.

LEMON: They're not.

BRINKLEY: Yes. And they are not -- they never digest the January 6th properly, the fact of what they are trying to do with gerrymandering and voters rights. And they are at war with Joe Biden. Most of these Republican Congressmen are buying into the line, they say on Fox News that Biden didn't really win the election. So how can you do business with those people? He gave it a try, Biden. He might give it a couple more weeks and then he's going to have to be a power president, not the healer in chief.

LEMON: Yes. Learn the hard way as they say. Thank you. I appreciate it.

BRINKLEY: Thank you.

LEMON: George Floyd's family in Washington today pushing for the policing reform bill that bears his name. But that bill the president wanted on his desk today, again, more evidence of what I just said, didn't make the deadline. What's the hang-up? And what will it take to get the family what they want?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNKNOWN: Say his name.

UNKNOWN: Say his name.

UNKNOWN: George Floyd.

UNKNOWN: Say it again.

UNKNOWN: Say it loud, baby.

UNKNOWN: Say his name, loud.

UNKNOWN: Say his name.

UNKNOWN: George Floyd.

UNKNOWN: Thank you all.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[23:20:00]

LEMON: One year ago George Floyd's death shocked the world. Nine minutes 29 seconds. The video of an officer kneeling on Floyd's neck sparking a global reckoning on racial justice. Former Officer Derek Chauvin is behind bars now, convicted of murder in Floyd's death. But what else has changed?

Joining me now to discuss this is criminal defense attorney Mr. Joey Jackson. Joey, thank you so much. It's good to see you. What a year, huh? What a year, what a year. And one year ago today, that's the death, George Floyd's death, shocked the world. We both know so many other black people who have died at the hands of police, but talk to me about the impact of his death and what it's had on racial justice or injustice in this country.

JOEY JACKSON, CNN LEGAL ANALYST (on camera): Yes, Don, good to see you. I think certainly it's been a reckoning. And let me explain why. Now there is a lot of talk about legislation. I think legislation is important, Don, as it relates to the George Floyd bill, banning chokeholds, of course, banning no-knock warrants, absolutely, looking at the issue of qualified immunity which protects the police from civil that is lawsuits and a number of other things.

But you can't legislate good judgment. You can't legislate morality. You can't legislate discretion being used in a way that favors de- escalation. But let me tell you what it means to me. I think the fact even that it went to trial, right, was really bold. Why?

You know, it's interesting, Don. You know this, we've talked about this before, right. In barbershops across America you have conversations, and you know, my barber said something interesting to me. Why is this case, as it folded, why is it even going to trial? And I said let me educate you why. It's because there is an emboldeness, right? You know, we don't think

jurors want to convict police. And since they don't want to convict police, let's take it to trial and take our shot. But the fact of the matter is that it was a reckoning and the fact that he was convicted, as Mr. Chauvin gave the indication that people have said that enough is enough.

And they have said, you know, we have seen so many times, you could take it back to Eric Garner, New York City, as you could recall, and the fact that he got choked and he died as a result of cigarettes, right, and you see that there was no indictment. And you see in other cases, there's no arrest.

And then you go to Philando Castile, back in Minnesota, one with the traffic stop reminding everyone, right. I have a gun officer. Don't reach for it. Don't reach it. Boom. Right? Mr. Yanez, who was taken to trial. And of course, he wasn't convicted. But here you saw a conviction. And so I think what it means to me is there is a reckoning and the reckoning says that enough is enough and there is going to be accountability.

And when officer's misstep and they abuse communities, they demoralize communities, they disrespect communities, and they do other things to terrorize communities, they are going to be held accountable. So I think it was a big and a tremendous moment notwithstanding the video that we saw that demonstrated clearly that he was guilty.

[23:25:03]

But the fact that a jury had the courage to find him guilty on those three counts, I think is a big moment and it deters every member of law enforcement who will transgress and do bad things.

Final point, Don, that's this. There are a lot of law enforcement officials out there who are doing great things. Every day and twice on Sunday to protect communities. But to those who misstep, to those who don't value, as we heard the chief say, remember him, right, Chief Arradondo, the sanctity of life, that we are going to make sure you get your day in court. And after that day in court you will be convicted and you'll face jail time, too.

So, I think it was a great equalizer. There's plenty of ways to go. We have a system that needs to be fixed. We have a system that targets people of color. That needs to stop. But the reality is the fact that he would be held accountable and convicted I think is a big moment and it says to law enforcement enough is enough, change your ways, change your culture, respect every community that you serve.

LEMON: That's why we love having you. You are the best guest. You know why? I only have to ask you one question and you just answer everything. No, I really mean that. Joey, thank you. I appreciate it.

JACKSON: Thanks, Don.

LEMON: I appreciate your perspective. Thanks for joining us.

JACKSON: Always. Thank you.

LEMON: Marjorie Taylor Greene defending herself again for comparing masks to the holocaust. The holocaust, a genocide that killed 6 million Jews. Know your history next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[23:30:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON (on camera): Important to know your history. Important to know your history. Took five days. House Republican leaders finally coming out and condemning Congresswoman Marjorie Taylor Greene for comparing rules requiring mask in Congress to the holocaust. I can't believe I even had to read that. Leader Kevin McCarthy calling her remarks appalling. Here's what she said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. MARJORIE TAYLOR GREENE (R-GA): You know, we can look back in a time in history where people were told to wear a gold star and they were definitely treated like second-class citizens, so much so that they were put in trains and taken to gas chambers in Nazi, Germany. This is exactly the type of abuse that Nancy Pelosi is talking about.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: Greene doubling down today in a tweet, saying, she never compared it to the holocaust, only the discrimination against Jews in early Nazi years.

Let's bring in now Stephen D. Smith, the executive director of the Shoah Foundation at the University of Southern California. I am so glad that you are here. Thank you so much for joining us.

I think it's important for people to know their history and to understand these issues. I did not invite you on here to talk politics. This is about education. When Marjorie Taylor Greene compares mask mandates to the holocaust, she seems not to understand the atrocities committed by the Nazi regime. How dangerous are remarks like hers?

STEPHEN D. SMITH, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR OF SHOAH FOUNDATION, UNIVERSITY OF SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA: Well, I think in her case, she probably does actually understand what happened because she -- quote -- "quite accurately," know that they were put on trains and sent to gas chambers. So it's not uncommon it is made out of ignorance, Don, as far as I can see.

Obviously, the situation is absurd because the mask mandate is there to protect life and the marks that were given to Jews during the Second World War, during the holocaust, was a mark of death.

In fact, people think that maybe that was the first step that was taken. People were given a yellow star and then a series of things happened and eventually they were murdered.

In fact, by the time the yellow star was introduced, there had been 1,500 laws promulgated against the Jews in Germany. The Second World War had already begun. So by that time, Jews lost their homes, lost their education. They have been evicted from their country, had their citizenship removed. Their synagogues have been burned. Tens of thousands of them were already in concentration camps.

It was only when Hitler went into the secondary countries, Poland and ultimately into the Soviet Union, that this became a way of marking Jews so that they knew that they would be marked for death.

And so it has -- it is completely opposite meaning and it is an egregious use of that history, obviously.

LEMON: The Auschwitz Museum tweeting in essence that using the suffering and murder of Jews in a debate over public health protections is -- quote -- "a sad symptom of moral and intellectual decline." What do you say to that? Do you agree?

SMITH: Well, I do. And I don't think this is a matter of ignorance. I think it is willful manipulation --

LEMON: Mm-hmm.

SMITH: -- and the misuse of that history for political ends. I think we all have to check ourselves. This doesn't only happen on one side of the political spectrum. I think it's about respect for the history.

Imagine you are one of the 100,000 holocaust survivors living in the United States, it is more than 100,000, and you hear that comment. When you as a child wore one of those stars, which marked you and your family out for murder and in most cases resulted in the mass murder of their families, imagine how they are feeling tonight hearing that, particularly when, you know, they have given the time and the trouble.

Many holocaust survivors like at the USC Shoah Foundation where I work, 55,000 of them have told their stories in great pain and in great detail so that we know this. I think it behoves us to spend a little time and to listen to their stories so that we understand when they are being taken out of context and misused.

LEMON: How do we do that? I mean, listen, the Shoa Foundation -- that is what you do. I do think it's important to hear people's stories. How do we get that? I guess maybe it's incumbent upon people like me in order to educate people with what they're trying to do with the segment.

But I mean, listen, unless, you know, we are doing this for weeks on end, every news anchor on television, there is not enough of it to educate people.

[23:35:00]

LEMON: I understand that you are saying that you think it's willful, but I do think that there is some ignorance in there because if you understood the plight and the suffering of Jewish people, you still wouldn't do it. Do you understand what I'm saying, Stephen?

SMITH: Let me give you an alternative example here. Last year, DeSean Jackson made some extremely egregious comments, misquoted Hitler with respect to the Jews. DeSean Jackson obviously then found himself sanctioned by that, but he took the time and trouble and the humility to learn.

LEMON: Mm-hmm.

SMITH: He went to the holocaust survivor, Ed Mosberg, and spent hours talking to him in New Jersey. He took time to come to the Shoa Foundation and listened to the testimonies of survivors.

A few weeks ago, I invited DeSean Jackson with 15,000 students from across the country to speak about the issues of the holocaust and anti-Semitism. I didn't brief him. I didn't tell him what to say. I didn't even talk to him in advance. I said the floor is yours.

And I trusted him with 15,000 young lives. And he was right on point. He was humble enough to learn. He spoke to those young people with dignity. I will tell you, I would put him in any classroom in this country at any time.

So if we take it seriously, if we learn, we can actually become the teachers, not the aggressors or those who (INAUDIBLE) those who might otherwise be hurt.

LEMON: Stephen, thank you for that. I appreciate it. We will have you back. Thank you for educating our viewers.

SMITH: Thanks, Don.

LEMON (on camera): Thank you. Half of all U.S. adults now fully vaccinated and the questions are turning to how this disease really got out.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ANDY SLAVITT, WHITE HOUSE SENIOR ADVISER FOR COVID RESPONSE: We need a completely transparent process from China. We need the WHO to assist in that matter. We don't feel like we have that now.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[23:40:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: CNN learning tonight the Biden administration shut down a previously unknown investigation seeking to prove the coronavirus originated at China's Wuhan lab.

The closely held effort began at the State Department near the end of the Trump administration led by allies of then Secretary of State Mike Pompeo.

Sources say the investigation was shuttered over concerns about the quality of the evidence being gathered. The news comes as health officials signal there needs to be a full investigation into the origins of the coronavirus.

Let us discuss now. Tom Bollyky is here. He is the director of the Global Health Program at the Council on Foreign Relations and the author of "Plagues and the Paradox of Progress." Tom, good so see you again. It's been a minute since we had you on. We are happy to have you back.

You know, this is coming to light after reporting about the researchers at the lab who fell ill in November of 2019. What questions does that raise for you?

TOM BOLLYKY, DIRECTOR OF GLOBAL HEALTH PROGRAM, COUNCIL ON FOREIGN RELATIONS: There are a lot of questions. Frankly, we are a year into -- more than a year into this pandemic. We still don't know the origin of this virus. We don't know how it jumped most likely from bats to some intermediate host and then to humans. We still don't know that. We still don't know what the earliest cases were from this virus. And again, there is a lot we don't know about this lab in Wuhan.

LEMON: Mm-hmm.

BOLLYKY: That doesn't mean that this was a lab leak, but there are enough questions that it's really important that we have a full and rigorous investigation of what has happened with this virus.

LEMON: I remember in the beginning, we were doing stories with animation on a wet market and a bat and a pangolin and, you know, and there was talk about it starting in a lab. I mean, we don't know. Should this investigation have been shut down given how much remains unknown?

BOLLYKY: It's important that we investigate. I don't know if this particular investigation that was being organized at the State Department would have gotten us there. What's important to understand here is really the only way to get at this answer is to do a full investigation in China.

We need to interview the people at the lab. We need to take blood tests or at least see the samples of the earliest cases we can find, particularly samples of cases that have yet to be diagnosed. We have to look through lab records. That's really the only way that we are going to definitively answer that.

And to have that happen, we need the permission of China. And there is no power under international law to make that happen. We can't send in human forces. There will be no invasion of the blue hats to make this happen. We need to do this through diplomacy. It's not clear that the kind of investigation that Secretary Pompeo was doing would have led us to that.

LEMON: The U.S. has actually given some funding to that lab for the study of coronaviruses in bats. Fauci today defended that. These Chinese bat caves have long been a focus point in virus research. Why are they so critical? What makes them so critical?

BOLLYKY: Yeah. So, coronaviruses are common in bats. There was research going on at this particular lab into coronaviruses. That's appropriate. We have had multiple epidemics and pandemics in the past involving coronaviruses, SARS, of course, also MERS, Middle Eastern Respiratory Syndrome, so good reason to do those -- that research.

[23:45:07]

BOLLYKY: The question is whether or not that research, you know, has led to a lab leak. What the most likely scenario, if it isn't just natural origin, is that the virus may have developed naturally, but was being studied at the lab and escaped that way. That's the information that we really need to find out.

So I am not concerned with the NIH grant. I'm more concerned with the lack of transparency, particularly from the Chinese government, about what happened in this investigation.

LEMON: The U.S. is hitting a major milestone today. More than half of adults are fully vaccinated. The CDC says it's safe for vaccinated folks to enjoy Memorial Day weekend. But should we be concerned about unvaccinated people gathering?

BOLLYKY: I'm concerned, particularly in parts of the country where vaccination rates are low. Frankly, in much of the south, the vaccination rate of adults is half of what we see in the northeast and other parts of the United States. There are still a lot of people who have yet to be vaccinated and I'm concerned that we declared victory too early.

People, remember, last year at this time, in May, you and I were talking in interviews like this, cases were dropping in the U.S., too. Some of this is in addition to the vaccination seasonal. We still need to be a little bit -- we are not quite there yet. It's important that we maintain that ahead of this holiday weekend.

LEMON: Tom Bollyky, thank you. Good to see you.

BOLLYKY: Good to see you.

LEMON: Calls across the country to defund the police largely on hold. We investigate why next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[23:50:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON (on camera): The phrase "defund the police" became a popular protest call in the aftermath of George Floyd's murder last year. The idea of defunding the police debated in cities all across the country, while at the same time there has been a steep rise in violent crime in America. More tonight from CNN's Josh Campbell.

(BEGIN VIDEO TAPE)

UNKNOWN: Defund!

CROWD: NPD!

JOSH CAMPBELL, CNN SECURITY CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): A murder in Minneapolis one year ago, sparking a nationwide movement for police reform, including some calls to defund the police.

UNKNOWN (voice-over): Defund!

CROWD: NPD!

CAMPBELL (voice-over): In some cities across the country, elected officials responding by pledging to reprogram money from police budgets to other social services.

LISA BENDER, PRESIDENT, MINNEAPOLIS CITY COUNCIL: Our commitment is to end our city's toxic relationship with the Minneapolis Police Department. To end policing as we know it.

CAMPBELL (voice-over): But the movement to slash police budgets is now facing serious headwinds. The slogan "defund the police" has itself become a political football.

And a recent spike in violent crime in cities has some politicians wanting to spend more money on police. Throughout the 2020 election, Republicans used calls to defund the police as a political bludgeon.

UNKNOWN (voice-over): Due to defunding of the police department, we're sorry, but no one is here to take your call.

DONALD TRUMP, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: There won't be defunding. There won't be dismantling of our police. Without police, there is chaos.

SEN. MITCH MCCONNELL (R-KY): They want to defund the police and take away your Second Amendment rights.

CAMPBELL (voice-over): And the debate among Democrats, proving to be anything but monolithic.

REP. ALEXANDRIA OCASIO-CORTEZ (D-NY): Have essentially already begun pursuing defunding of the police.

UNKNOWN: Defunding of the police is the wrong approach for New York City.

UNKNOWN: I'm going take a billion dollars from the New York City Police Department.

UNKNOWN: Our communities are over-policed and under-resourced.

UNKNOWN: We must have a police department that we trust.

UNKNOWN: We got to root out the bad apples and let's go forward with a good solid program.

JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: Not defunding the police.

CAMPBELL (voice-over): And among the most vocal supporters of defunding the police, some aren't calling for the outright abolishment of law enforcement, but instead strategic and incremental cuts they believe are desperately needed.

MELINA ABDULLAH, BLACK LIVES MATTER L.A. CO-FOUNDER: We've never said defund the police and just don't do anything with those dollars. We said defund the police and invest those dollars in the things that actually make communities safe. We begin by removing police from places we can all agree they don't belong.

UNKNOWN (VOICE-OVER): The 10 freeway --

CAMPBELL (voice-over): Another challenge to defund the police movement, crime, like in Los Angeles, where homicide is up over 26 percent since the same time last year. City officials voted last year to cut $150 million from the police department's budget. But now, after a unanimous city council vote, the mayor is poised to add millions of dollars to the LAPD.

UNKNOWN: This budget is going to allow us to start hiring, to start putting cops through the academy and back on the street.

CAMPBELL (voice-over): The sheriff in Los Angeles engaged in a war of words with county officials, blaming calls to defund police and progressive policies for the rise in crime. But experts say it's not possible to draw a line between the two.

ROSA BROOKS, GEORGETOWN UNIVERSITY LAW CENTER: We've seen that in cities that have cut police budgets. We've seen that in cities that have not cut police budgets. The causes of crime are pretty complicated and anybody who says that, oh, I've got it figured out, it was this one simple thing is almost certainly wrong.

CAMPBELL (voice-over): Right or wrong, where does the movement to redirect police budgets go from here?

ABDULLAH: We're not going let up. We need to let the mayor and city council know that they will be held accountable. There will be political consequences if they choose to be in the pockets of police associations rather than act on behalf of the people.

CAMPBELL (on camera): And Don, when it comes to policing reform, the issue of whether to cut police department budgets remains a hotly contested one.

[23:55:05]

CAMPBELL: After the murder of George Floyd, we saw some cities cut funding to law enforcement in favor of other social services. But as we're seeing here in Los Angeles, for example, with violent crime on the rise, some of those proposed budget cuts are on the verge of possibly being reversed by elected leaders.

All of this is, of course, raising an important question for those seeking to cut police department budgets. What's next for the movement? Activists we have spoken with say they will keep fighting and rather than simply protesting, their aim is on creating their own change at the ballot box. Don?

(END VIDEO TAPE)

LEMON: Josh Campbell, thank you. And thank you for watching, everyone. Our coverage continues.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)